The Sub 3 Support Thread

Ian,
All of the accepted wisdom would suggest that even splits/slight negative splits are optimum for a marathon, all else being equal. The faster finish long runs are the perfect set up for this, you're teaching your body to run hard on tired legs. You have to teach your legs to maintain pace when they get tired. As you said yourself, your breathing seemed fine.

Personally, a 20 miler 14-16 days out from the marathon is just about right for me. I've gone with a 3 week taper before, and it really felt too long. If you do your last 20 miler 16 days out, then halve your normal weekly mileage the next week, and even half it again in marathon week, you'll feel completely fresh. You'll have recovered from the last 20 miler and your body will be ready and raring to go. For a 3 week taper, you'll be scratching your head after a week and a half wondering should you be doing something. That's my own personal experience anyway.

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Hi Jebus, congrats on a cracking time. Half marathon performance is one of the best indicators you can use for predicting the marathon, but unfortunately it's not foolproof either. You need to start thinking about doing some PMP sessions at your new target pace and see how they feel.

So might be an idea to do something like the following for the next three weekends:
This weekend: 18 miles with 10@PMP
Next weekend: 22 miles easy
Following weekend: 20 miles with 12@PMP

You'll get a good idea of how target pace feels and can make a more informed decision at that stage.

Krusty, can you post a recommended list of LSR's for those looking to do a sub-3 hr from this weekend until DCM?

Thanks in advance.

Dutchie wrote: »

Krusty, can you post a recommended list of LSR's for those looking to do a sub-3 hr from this weekend until DCM?

For that kind of advice, the best port of call is someone who actually coaches at marathon level (like Tergat) as it really depends on the individual and what you have been doing. For some, a three week taper makes sense. For others, they start to feel a bit stale and are better off with a two week taper. Also it needs to be balanced with the number of sessions you continue to do and your weekly mileage (my weekly mileage has started to drop already (100m last week, 80, 70, 70, 60, race). Most plans will sharpen in intensity over the remaining weeks, while the total mileage begins to drop off. Here's an idea of what P&D and Jack Daniels (Plan A) would suggest:

P&D:
Long Run - 22
Long Run - 18 (10k race previous day)
Long Run - 20
Long Run - 17 (5-8k race previous day)
Med Long run - 13
Race
All of the above would be run at easy pace, picking up the pace for the last 5-10 miles to MP+10%. As mentioned in a previous post, I feel that P&D falls short (in terms of my own needs) of PMP runs, so in my case, I'd be aiming to run one of those as a PMP run (most likely the 20 miler three weeks out, with 12 miles @PMP). Because of the tune-up races the previous days, I would run the long runs on subsequent days at an easy pace.

Jack Daniels Plan A:
2 Miles Easy + 4 x 1 Mile @ tempo (1min rest) + 10 miles Easy + 4 x 1 Miles @Tempo + 2 miles easy
Long run - 22 Miles
2 Miles Easy + 15 miles @MP + 2 miles easy
2 Miles Easy 2 x (10-15 minutes @ Tempo/3 min rest) + 30-45 mins Easy
1.5 Hours Easy Pace
Race

So, as you can see, two very different approaches. P&D focuses on long runs (with sessions on other days of the week), while JD plan A continues to focus on Long sessions. The important point is that you should be continuing the same general flow in terms of the training you have done to date. Three weeks out is probably the ideal time to perform your last long run (either 22 miles Easy or 18-20 miles with 12-15@PMP). Two weeks out: 17 miles finishing at close to PMP. One week out 1.5 hours or 13 miles Easy.

What you shouldn't be doing is trying to suddenly find a break-out session which is a huge departure to what you have been doing over the last two months. Your focus should be on building on the training foundations you've laid down. If you want to spice things up a little, a progression run is a great way of doing it, e.g.:
4 miles @7:45/mile
4 miles @7:30/mile
4 miles @7:15/mile
3 miles @7:00/mile
2 miles @6:50 (or marathon pace)
1 mile @Half marathon pace
1-2 miles warm-down

Or alternatively, one of Tergat's workouts will provide sufficient training stimulus to keep you happy!

Dutchie wrote: »

I've averaged 50-60 miles most weeks. I tapered for 2 weeks in 2010 and felt really ready come race day. I think I'll do the same this time around. I do all my LSR's on Saturday, with a rest on Friday (only one of the week) so racing prior to the LSR is not feasible.

Racing is an important part of training too, and shouldn't be overlooked. I mean obviously, based on a target of sub-3, you're not going to be head to head with the other guys around you on the start line, but there's the other aspects of racing, like dealing with the stress (or adrenaline) of the day, getting used to working/running (hunting?!) in a pack, pre-race fueling and hydration, and just generally becoming comfortable with the race environment. I'm not suggesting that you go out and run a half marathon all-out, but if there's a 5k-10k in the next few weeks (or a longer race that you can do at marathon pace) that fits in with your schedule, don't rule it out on the grounds that you're getting close to your goal marathon. Races also give you a boost in confidence when you need it most; after a long gruelling slog to the marathon. But you won't miss out hugely either. Get some good sessions done over the next two weekends, and have a good focused taper and you'll rock the sub-3.

I've only done two 100 mile weeks, and they were a lot easier than I would have thought. You just need to run for an hour every day, do two long sessions, and a few double days (consisting of 5-6 mile easy runs). It's be different were I following the Daniels Elite plan like some of the lads here (tunguska, cwgatling etc.) where 90 miles is almost a minimum and the quality sessions are extremely challenging.

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

P&D:
Long Run - 22
Long Run - 18 (10k race previous day)
Long Run - 20
Long Run - 17 (5-8k race previous day)
Med Long run - 13
Race
All of the above would be run at easy pace, picking up the pace for the last 5-10 miles to MP+10%. As mentioned in a previous post, I feel that P&D falls short (in terms of my own needs) of PMP runs, so in my case, I'd be aiming to run one of those as a PMP run (most likely the 20 miler three weeks out, with 12 miles @PMP). Because of the tune-up races the previous days, I would run the long runs on subsequent days at an easy pace.

I ran 22mlies yesterday.

First 10 miles easy average 7:09
Second 10miles average 6:57
Last 2 miles warm-down average 7:38

Overall time 2:36.

Should I run 22 next weekend at a slower pace to get time on my legs?

I know it sounds strange but i find it uncomfortable to run slower than 7.30 pace. Does anybody else feel like this during their LSR's?

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Solid running Dutchie. Seeing as you have gone 'long' this weekend, perhaps you should focus on marathon pace next weekend? I don't think you should worry too much about time on your legs, if you can run 7:03/mile for 20 miles. Did it feel comfortable enough?

All except the last mile. Felt I ran out of fuel/hydration. Knackered when i got home.
Avg Hr 156 which is bang on for me.

Ok i think I'll follow your LSR plan posted above from now until DCM.

thanks.

BetterThanHoyte wrote: »

Yup,

Training was going well, but outside of the running my left knee has been acting up for the last 2 weeks. Physio last Tuesday told me no running for a week. That was easy in Rome for the last 5 days! Back into him again today, and still no running for a week, so my marathon is already over.

I'll be there to cheer you on on the day though.

Stinker. If you were in Oz I'd be able to refer you to a guy that would sort your knee out in one session. Physios (unless running focussed ones) typically get you to stretch (as if you didn't know that already) and come back the following week after rest. I've had a bit of knee trouble after a couple of my 100k races and he massaged out the tight muscles. It was agony but I was back running two days later.

Now that the dust has settled on my spectacularly unsuccessful sub-3 marathon bid in Berlin on Sunday, I thought I might share the post-mortem with you all as there are potential lessons for all in my experience (SORRY IN ADVANCE FOR ITS LENGTH!)

The background. I’m late 40s, only running with any seriousness for the last 18 months. Before that I was a recreational runner but I would go for months on end without ever lacing up a pair of runners. I had however run the DCM as an 18 year old on very little training and lived to tell the tale. I had also run a 1:24 HM on a month’s training during my college days so I knew I could run reasonably fast if I made the effort. I spent the next 30 years talking about doing another marathon but always being too busy/too lazy to actually commit. I finally ticked the box by running Berlin in 2011 on 3 months training in 3:14:xx – I ran even splits and I finished knowing I could go faster next time.
I went on to run London in 3:02:36 last April. I had trained well and lost more weight. I hadn’t read (let alone followed) any proper structured training plans however and had done few PMP runs and little or no speedwork, bar a few road races here and there. I knew after London there was a sub-3 in me if I went the extra mile. I decided to make Berlin 2012 my goal and I followed the P&D medium mileage plan (for 55-70 miles) but peaking in my case at 65 miles. I stuck to the plan really well, and did pretty much all of the key workouts. I ran a few road races (and tuning races as per the programme) and all results gave predicted marathon times in the 2:56-3:02 range according to McMillan and Daniels – despite the fact I didn’t really taper or prepare for any of them – Berlin being the only goal that mattered.

The Buildup. With the benefit of hindsight I can say things weren’t quite right from about 4 weeks out before the race. I got a cold which was a nuisance but no more than that. I began to notice that my HRM was showing heart rates higher than I would have expected on easy training runs – not massive changes but maybe 4-8 beats per minute – enough to make me wonder was I losing fitness instead of gaining it. I was troubled enough to pose the question of those who know more on Boards. (Q&A on link) My last tuning race 2 weeks before Berlin was a 10k (PB of 37:57 but I was a bit disappointed and surprised by how I faded in the 2k). My last speed session was a 3 x 1m @ 5:55 pace – which should have been a piece of cake – but it felt tough. I wasn’t sleeping well ( I normally sleep like a baby) and I was a bit listless and lacking enthusiasm for training despite the fact that the Berlin Marathon that I had trained hard for was only 2-3 weeks away.
And then…. 7 days before the race I got another cold.. a much heavier one. I knew I wasn’t going to shake this off so easily. I decided last Monday to get my bloods checked (I’m a doctor – and yes.. you’re right – no sense whatsoever doing them the week of the race). Results came back and my heart sank when I saw the results – I was borderline anaemic but worse still my Ferritin level (Ferritin levels are a measure of your body’s iron stores) was in my boots at 9 mcg/ml(normal range 17-320, but athletes need a level of at least 25 for competitive performance). Marathon runners deplete their iron stores for a variety of reasons (Pfitzinger’s book has a good section on it Pages 42-43). The end result is the same though – increased heart rate, underperformance, poor sleep, frequent minor infections). Conversely EPO raises your blood count and iron stores – that’s why cheating competitive athletes take it to get an edge!


Pre-Race Strategy. I knew I was in trouble. I was dosing myself with decongestants and busy at work and my cold wasn’t improving. And on top, with low iron stores and borderline anaemia I was effectively going to try run a sub-3 with leaden soles in my racing flats. Should I abort my run in Berlin altogether? Should I give it a lash and hope for the best? Should I run a long PMP and pull out at the first sign of trouble? In the end I studied the map carefully and realised that the race would pass closest to my hotel at 35k (22miles). I decided to give it a lash but to back off at the first sign of trouble and to step off the course at 35k and focus on the Dublin Marathon instead.

The Race. This part will be brief (Not a race I care to dwell on too long!). I woke up feeling ok but still coughing and sneezing. I took 2 Sudafed with my breakfast and headed off to meet EauRouge for the start. Conditions were perfect. We set off at 6:40-6:42 pace. I felt fine, pace felt comfortable. We went through the HM marker in 1:28:40. At 30k I felt strong, but backed off from EauRouge a little as I didn’t want to overcook things. I gave up a few seconds at water stations between 30k and 35k (I’d carried a water bottle for the first 20k – fecking water cups in Berlin, I ask ya!). I was still on target for 2:58:30 at 35k and beginning to tire but feeling ok. I was doing the maths at every km marker and I knew I had a cushion which wasn’t shrinking. The deterioration when it came was swift and ugly. In the space of a km I went from feeling 2:59 was in the bag to being that confuzzled that decision making went out the window. The 3 hr pacer balloon passed me somewhere around 38k and I couldn’t respond for longer than 50 metres. The last 20 minutes of my race is a bit of a blur – I walked/ran the last 2kms to totter across the line in 3:04:36. I had 2 or 3 offers of assistance from concerned marshalls having crossed the line – only pride stopped me from accepting them. I had lost 6 minutes in the last 7km. There was no cramp or stitch- just a feeling of complete loss of energy. I had fuelled and watered sensibly during the race. I was gutted afterwards – not alone had I run sick and run below my potential, in so doing I had burnt my bridges for Dublin.

Lessons Learned: A few salutary lessons learned by me (and hopefully heeded by others)
1. DON'T run if you’re sick or if you must run, accept that your performance will be below par and lower your goals.
2. Make a decision one way or the other before you toe the line of your goal race- don’t hedge your bets as I did.
3. If you are going to run 4 marathons in a year as I did (and lose a lot of weight in the process) don’t assume your health is bullet-proof. If you feel below par, get it checked out. Ask your GP to check your haemoglobin AND your ferritin (there is no point just checking your blood count/haemoglobin – it may well be normal until your iron stores are almost empty).
4. Consider getting your bloods checked anyway if you are embarking on a heavy training schedule on a background of highish base mileage - all your tempos and VO2 max work may be undermined by inadequate Oxygen-carrying capacity caused by a low blood count otherwise
5. Heed the signs early – it takes several weeks to correct iron deficiency and if you find out the week of your key race it will be too late to do anything about it.

Post-script. Muscle soreness just about resolving. Cold still there – I should have shares in Kleenex by now. I am going to have sense for once and accept that I will not be sorted and fit again for Dublin. A few weeks rest, maybe the Waterford HM in December and I’ll come back fresh as a daisy for a new crack at the sub-3 in 2013 (loaded with iron of course! ).

Gutted for you Rolex. I'm going to get my bloods checked ASAP.
Best of luck training for your next event.

Rolex_ wrote: »

Hi KC and thanks for the encouragement. I sure won't make that mistake again.

For long distance running, the key variables are those which determine the ability of your heart and lungs to get oxygen to your muscles. Much of your training is geared at improving the efficiency of your aerobic metabolism. Oxygen is bound to Haemoglobin (Hb) in your red blood cells. You are anaemic if your Hb is low. A routine FBC (full blood count) will measure your Hb and you need to know that your Hb is normal. Your doctor may not be aware that the normal range for an endurance athlete is a bit lower (13-15 for a man and 11-13 for a woman) than for mere mortals because your blood volume is greater and the red cells are more dilute as a result.
It's a bit more complicated than that though. A key component of haemoglobin is iron and your body's iron stores may be depleted before your Hb falls at all. Your iron stores are measured by getting a serum ferritin reading done. Your GP will only do this routinely (1) if you are anaemic - low Hb (2) If he/she is used to looking after elite athletes or endurance athletes (3) If you ask him/her.
Your ferritin level is an early indicator of anaemia. In addition if it is low it will affect enzyme function in aerobic metabolism even if your Hb is normal

I would recommend that marathon runners get routine bloods done at least once a year - these would include an FBC and Profile anyway, and perhaps testing for thyroid function and diabetes. You should specifically ask your doctor to measure your serum ferritin as it is likely it will not be tested otherwise. Bloods should be done early on in a marathon cycle and/or if your start to feel off in general so that you have time to take corrective action if there is a problem.

Marathoners are prone to anaemia because of (1) increased iron demands because of exercise (2) foot strike haemolysis (destruction of red blood cells) (3) loss of microscopic amounts of blood from the bowel (4) inadequate dietary intake.

In my own case I was totally complacent as a red meat eater with a healthy appetite that I could not have a problem.. until tested.

Incidentally, 3 or 4 of my running partners (all excellent medics and all experienced marathoners) were complacent on the subject and werent routinely testing themselves until they saw my blood results. So again- don't assume just because you have an excellent GP that this will be old hat to him/her

Obviously there is an expense and a hassle factor in blood testing but.. as athletes we all spend significant amounts of money on physio, massage, gear, travel etc etc.

Subclinical anaemia is an occupational hazard of endurance athletes (and also of contact sportsmen amongst others). It will affect your performance. It's easily treated but only if diagnosed!

Good post. Thanks for that.
Can I as another question on this. How does B12 come into? I know someone had low B12 and that was really affecting performance too - seemed to be similar 'tiredness' you'd get from low iron.
Just interested...

Hi Rolex_

Thanks for sharing your experiences and hard luck. I'm aiming for sub 3 myself in Dublin and lately do feel tired but I'm putting it down to the marathon training. What your saying makes sense, would it make sense for someone who may be lacking in certain vitamins during peak marathon training to go on vitamin supplements the few weeks before the event to replenish stores? Never really have been one for taking vitamins and I do eat pretty healthy.

Outside wrote: »

Hi Rolex_

Thanks for sharing your experiences and hard luck. I'm aiming for sub 3 myself in Dublin and lately do feel tired but I'm putting it down to the marathon training. What your saying makes sense, would it make sense for someone who may be lacking in certain vitamins during peak marathon training to go on vitamin supplements the few weeks before the event to replenish stores? Never really have been one for taking vitamins and I do eat pretty healthy.

Hi, as I said in my post iron deficiency is the main one I would be concerned about. If you have a good balanced diet vitamin supplements are not necessary (and for most people are a waste of money). On the other hand taking a multivit for a while before a marathon will do you no harm and just might give you a lift given the addtional demand that training places on your body.

The amount of iron in multivitamin supplements will do nothing to address a significant iron deficiency. This can only be detected by blood testing and can only be corrected by iron tablets/injections which should only be taken under supervision.

At the very least all marathon runners (especially women) should ensure that they have lots of iron-rich foods in their diet - lots of websites will tell you which foods are good.

nerraw1111 wrote: »

Great info Rolex. I would see far more positives in your race than negatives.

I agree R. You were very comfortable for a long time during the race and never struggled until the wheels came off. Energy levels just couldnt be where they should be after feeling unwell.
To maintain the required pace, a lot of factors have to have fall into place and I would say you had 90% of them sorted.

Next time out you will be odds on to do it and ill throw a few quid on with Paddy Power.:)

Hi everyone,

I am running my second DCM this year and I'm rather optimistically aiming for around 3hrs. In training I've comfortably done half marathons in around 1hr30mins. I realise that the marathon is a completely different prospect and that come the 20mile mark my pace is likely to drop off dramatically. However my training pace is very comfortable and I frequently run the last kms faster than the first. To add to my difficulties my knee has been painfull the last week or so which has been limiting my training. Should I be a bit more realistic and aim for 3:15 or do you think I should stick to my original target?

Last year I ran at a very conservative pace and finished in 3:38 but this year I've been running a lot more and want to run a good race.

I'd never take a multi vit again unless my doc recommended it. I had iron saturation when I got my blood tested. I was only taking a multi vit with iron and cod liver oil. All good normal levels now though.