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The Sub 3 Support Thread

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    #482
    Krusty_Clown
    Registered Users Posts: 19,505 ✭✭✭✭Krusty_Clown


    Hi Jebus, congrats on a cracking time. Half marathon performance is one of the best indicators you can use for predicting the marathon, but unfortunately it's not foolproof either. You need to start thinking about doing some PMP sessions at your new target pace and see how they feel.

    So might be an idea to do something like the following for the next three weekends:
    This weekend: 18 miles with 10@PMP
    Next weekend: 22 miles easy
    Following weekend: 20 miles with 12@PMP

    You'll get a good idea of how target pace feels and can make a more informed decision at that stage.


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    #483
    EauRouge79
    Registered Users Posts: 511 ✭✭✭EauRouge79


    Thats great running in fairness
    I wouldnt let the fact that its your 1st put you off the idea. Do a few runs like KC has suggested and see how you feel.
    If you decide to go ahead with the attempt. Try to stay as relaxed as you can on race day and tuck in behind the 3 hrs pacers. As its your 1st marathon you need to be carefull with your pacing so let them do the work for you.
    If you can come in under 3 hrs thats a great achivement, if not it is sure to be an impressive debut!


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    #484
    Clearlier
    Registered Users Posts: 4,454 ✭✭✭Clearlier


    Hi Jebuz, Congratulations on your improvement and on your race. It sounds like you're heading towards the sub 3hr barrier but you'll probably need to improve your fitness again between now and the marathon.

    McMillan is one of the more optimistic calculators at converting half marathon to marathon times. Anecdotally a 1:23 half is a much better guide to a sub-3 although I understand that the half at the weekend was not flat which probably had an impact on times. Some of the factors that need to be taken into consideration are:

    Are you doing marathon training? If you're doing about 35 mpw with intervals, a tempo run, maybe a marathon paced run and a long run then you're training is more geared towards a half and I'd want you to be in shape to run closer to 1:21/22 for a half before having a go at sub-3 in the marathon.

    If you've been building mileage to 65-70+ per week with a tempo/marathon pace run, a medium long run and a long run with segments slightly above, below and at marathon pace then your training is a lot more marathon specific and I would think that if you continued your improvement curve that you'd almost certainly be ready for sub-3 at DCM.

    Another thing to think about is whether you're naturally fast or slow twitch? Were you always one of the fastest kids at school or did you naturally head towards the endurance tests? If you naturally headed towards endurance then it's more likely that you'll convert a half time into an equivalent (according to the calculators) marathon time.

    There's enough time to get another performance boost before DCM but I wouldn't do another half as a race unless you do high mileage and are relatively slow twitch. Pick a 10k 2-3 weeks out and race it flat out. 38mins is around about the border line, if you go well under you'll do it, if you can't break 38:30 then I wouldn't think about it (which is not to say that it can't be done just that it wouldn't be sensible for a first time marathon runner unless they had years of running behind them). The bit in between is where I would tell an experienced marathon runner to run at pace to halfway and see how they feel.

    At halfway you should feel very comfortable. In many ways that's where the race begins with halfway around about the 20 mile mark. It's very, very easy (done it myself) to tell yourself that you're feeling fine when in reality you're pushing yourself just a little bit too hard and the thing about a marathon is that you pay at least double towards the end and often a lot more for the time that you bank in the early stages of a marathon.

    Another thing to consider is that it's your first marathon. It's obvious but often overlooked that you only do your first marathon once. You should enjoy it and not be too hung up on arbitrary time goals.

    On the whole I think that you're on track to do it provided your training is appropriate but you've got a bit more work to do and a sub-38 10k a few weeks out would be a good guide.

    Good luck!


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    #485
    ThePiedPiper
    Registered Users Posts: 2,643 ✭✭✭ThePiedPiper


    Jebuz, I'd agree with Krusty here.

    If I was in your position, I'd certainly go for it. A sub 1:25 half would indicate that you're in and around 2:58-3:05 capability. I don't think there'd be a big possibility of a DNF, as you've been doing plenty of long runs. Probably the worst thing that could happen is you could fall off the pace after 20 miles if you go out at sub 3 pace, but you'd more than likely still manage to hang onto your original sub 3:10 target. In 2010, I ran 1:26:30 in the Dublin half, and 5 weeks later 3:05 in Amsterdam, falling off sub 3 pace just in the last 4 miles.

    I'm aiming for a sub-3 in 3 weeks and yesterday's long run was 7 @ 7:15 a mile, 12 @ PMP (6:46 - 6:55), and 1 mile very slow (10:00)warmdown. Everybody is different, but this is the type of LSR that best worked for me on my first sub-3. Adjust your training to get yourself used to the new target pace, and give it a go. I prefer glorious near misses with a tough target to conservative safe efforts anyway.


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    #486
    jebuz
    Registered Users Posts: 1,771 ✭✭✭jebuz


    Thanks a lot lads much appreciated, and I completely agree Krusty, I'm under no illusions that my half time = a sub 3 marathon, there are a lot of variables and a lot more work required, I just want my goal to be realistic. God forbid but next year for whatever reason I might not be able to run, so if I'm a position to go for it now, I think I should.

    I will go ahead and do the long runs you suggested with the revised PMP which I guess is now 6:50/51. I'll let you know how they go, and I'll be adjusting my midweek workouts too. increasing the intensity.


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    #487
    jebuz
    Registered Users Posts: 1,771 ✭✭✭jebuz


    Clearlier wrote: »
    Are you doing marathon training?
    Yes, I'm specifically training for the marathon, at 10 weeks in now I've been following a 6 day plan including an interval session, tempo run and LSR session, I'm hitting 55-60 miles a week at the moment.
    Clearlier wrote: »
    Another thing to think about is whether you're naturally fast or slow twitch?
    Honestly, I couldn't tell you :) I didn't run as a kid but have always played a lot of teams sports and up until a few years ago I would have said I'm naturally speedy but now I would lean more towards endurance. I've noticed on my 20m+ LSR's in the last few weeks how comfortable I feel even after finishing, and my recovery is quite speedy.
    Clearlier wrote: »
    Pick a 10k 2-3 weeks out and race it flat out. 38mins is around about the border line, if you go well under you'll do it
    Sounds like a good plan, it'll be a decent indicator of where I'll be at the time, I'll take a look and see what's on around that time.
    Clearlier wrote: »
    Another thing to consider is that it's your first marathon. It's obvious but often overlooked that you only do your first marathon once. You should enjoy it and not be too hung up on arbitrary time goals.
    Fair point, but to be honest it's what motivates me to get out there and train, I'm not just doing it to complete it, I want to complete it in the best time I possibly can given the time left to train.
    Clearlier wrote: »
    On the whole I think that you're on track to do it provided your training is appropriate but you've got a bit more work to do and a sub-38 10k a few weeks out would be a good guide.
    Good luck!

    Thanks a lot and I really appreciated the responses from all of you, really great stuff.


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    #488
    Rolex_
    Registered Users Posts: 150 ✭✭Rolex_


    jebuz wrote: »
    Thanks a lot lads much appreciated, and I completely agree Krusty, I'm under no illusions that my half time = a sub 3 marathon, there are a lot of variables and a lot more work required, I just want my goal to be realistic. God forbid but next year for whatever reason I might not be able to run, so if I'm a position to go for it now, I think I should.

    I will go ahead and do the long runs you suggested with the revised PMP which I guess is now 6:50/51. I'll let you know how they go, and I'll be adjusting my midweek workouts too. increasing the intensity.

    Hi Jebuz. Great run, congratulations. Agree with all of the replies you received, mostly from marathoners more experienced than I. I debuted in Berlin last year and ran 3:14 off a 1:36 half less than 4 months previously. I was improving pretty rapidly on 45-50 miles per week in between (never trained with any consistency before that). I only felt 3:15 was possible after my last long run in training and I ran behind the 3:15 pacer for most of the race (Brilliant - takes a lot of the thinking about your pace out of the equation). I passed the pacer in the last few kms when I knew I had some gas in the tank.
    I ran 1:28 for a HM last December and then trained a bit harder for London (still very little of the PMP running though that Krusty and others correctly advise). I ran 3:02:36 in London - stayed with the 3 hr pacer up to 20 miles but couldn't quite hold him.
    Doing Berlin in 2 weeks and this time I have followed a proper programme. Have a 1:25 HM done in June since then and a sub-38 (just!) 10k done last weekend. So fingers crossed...
    I guess my point is... if you are relatively new to marathon-distance running as I am/was and your times are still improving pretty fast, I would definitely go for it having taken some of the lads' advice on board. I'd follow the 3 hr balloon - it should feel fairly comfortable up to 16-18 or you are working too hard. Listen to your body, back off if you need to and you can still debut with a great time even if you don't break 3 hrs knowing that you will do it next time.
    Best of luck.


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    #489
    jebuz
    Registered Users Posts: 1,771 ✭✭✭jebuz


    Rolex_ wrote: »
    I'd follow the 3 hr balloon - it should feel fairly comfortable up to 16-18 or you are working too hard. Listen to your body, back off if you need to and you can still debut with a great time even if you don't break 3 hrs knowing that you will do it next time.
    Best of luck.

    Thanks Rolex, I guess what I've highlighted above is the general consensus from talking to various experienced runners. Go for it, stick with the 3 hr pacers and see if I can stick with them all the way. If I make it super but if the wheels come off so be it, it'll still be a decent debut and I'll have another crack next time.


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    #490
    Krusty_Clown
    Registered Users Posts: 19,505 ✭✭✭✭Krusty_Clown


    By the way, the long runs I suggested require a lot of effort, so the workouts should be tempered, based on the mileage and type of running you have been doing. There is no point injuring yourself in training, only to miss out on your marathon completely, so bear that in mind before you set out to do a session.

    PMP runs never feel easy (if they did, you should probably revise your marathon goal!), but with a proper taper, surrounded by other runners, the adoration of the crowds(?) and water/fuel stations along the way, they are a lot easier come race day.


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    #491
    jebuz
    Registered Users Posts: 1,771 ✭✭✭jebuz


    Ah covering your ass Krusty incase you injure me ;) no seriously I know what you're getting at but I think what you suggested this Sunday won't be a huge step up for me. I'll try the 18 w/10 @ PMP.

    Do you advise the PMP miles at the end rather than beginning or should I vary that? I've read that putting in the PMP miles in the latter stages of a run better mimics a race situation, you get more used to be able to consistently perform those miles when it starts getting tough


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    #492
    Krusty_Clown
    Registered Users Posts: 19,505 ✭✭✭✭Krusty_Clown


    jebuz wrote: »
    Ah covering your ass Krusty incase you injure me ;) no seriously I know what you're getting at but I think what you suggested this Sunday won't be a huge step up for me. I'll try the 18 w/10 @ PMP.

    Do you advise the PMP miles at the end rather than beginning or should I vary that? I've read that putting in the PMP miles in the latter stages of a run better mimics a race situation, you get more used to be able to consistently perform those miles when it starts getting tough
    Exactly. ;) But in reality, those are the kind of sessions I reckon I would do, but I'm running 80-90 mpw, so just be careful.

    When you think of it though, on Saturday you ran 13.1 miles @6:28/mile, so in reality you'll be backing off to 6:50/mile for the 10 miles of the PMP mileage. Pfitzinger and Douglas would have you do the easy miles beforehand and the PMP afterwards, with maybe 1-1.5 miles warm-down. Daniels would have 2 miles easy either side of the PMP section, but a far greater percentage of the run would be PMP miles (e.g. 19 miles with 15@PMP). So probably best to stick with the P&D style PMP run (6-7 miles easy, 10 miles @PMP, 1-2 miles warm-down).


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    #493
    Dutchie
    Registered Users Posts: 364 ✭✭Dutchie


    Sounds like me two years ago. I started running in April 2010. I finished DCM 2010 in 3.01.40 after doing 1.24.30 in the race series.

    The only reason I didn't go sub 3 was that I didn't back myself!

    Remember you have trained well and tapered, just make sure you're well hydrated and fuelled.
    It's amazing how much easier the pacer and the crowd make the race.

    Don't take my advice as gospel. There are far more experienced guys than I on this forum.

    See you on the line.

    Good luck.


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    #494
    robbicosta
    Registered Users Posts: 108 ✭✭robbicosta


    Hey folks,
    Logged onto Boards.ie for the first time in a long time in advance of my trip home to Ireland.
    I'm living in Sydney now. Been here for the last four years. I'm really looking forward to the trip home as my wife and I just had a new baby boy and he'll be meeting most of the family for the first time. I've also managed to fit the Dublin marathon into our three week trip so I've been training hard for a sub 3 hour finish.
    I haven't focussed on the marathon in a few years - been mostly doing trail ultras - but now I'm 100% dead set on getting sub 3 in Dublin. I haven't run it since 2007 (when I was quite a bit slower) so it would be a fantastic homecoming to finish with family and friends to cheer me on.
    Just wondering how training has been going for you guys and if there are many going for sub 3? I'm home from 19 October so will probably get a few easy runs in on the course and at home in Drogheda while back.
    Training has been going well so far. Long run this weekend was 4k warm up 3 x 10k progressive (4:40s, 4:30s, 4:40s) and 4k cool down. Sorry about kms but have gone metric since moving to Oz. Getting some solid sessions in with a training group that meet in the city at lunch most days (http://hurtsquad.com/) and ran a consistently paced 84:22 at the Sydney half marathon last week.
    Rob


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    #495
    BTH
    Registered Users Posts: 3,075 Mod ✭✭✭✭BTH


    robbicosta wrote: »
    Hey folks,
    Logged onto Boards.ie for the first time in a long time in advance of my trip home to Ireland.
    I'm living in Sydney now. Been here for the last four years. I'm really looking forward to the trip home as my wife and I just had a new baby boy and he'll be meeting most of the family for the first time. I've also managed to fit the Dublin marathon into our three week trip so I've been training hard for a sub 3 hour finish.
    I haven't focussed on the marathon in a few years - been mostly doing trail ultras - but now I'm 100% dead set on getting sub 3 in Dublin. I haven't run it since 2007 (when I was quite a bit slower) so it would be a fantastic homecoming to finish with family and friends to cheer me on.
    Just wondering how training has been going for you guys and if there are many going for sub 3? I'm home from 19 October so will probably get a few easy runs in on the course and at home in Drogheda while back.
    Training has been going well so far. Long run this weekend was 4k warm up 3 x 10k progressive (4:40s, 4:30s, 4:40s) and 4k cool down. Sorry about kms but have gone metric since moving to Oz. Getting some solid sessions in with a training group that meet in the city at lunch most days (http://hurtsquad.com/) and ran a consistently paced 84:22 at the Sydney half marathon last week.
    Rob

    Good to see you coming home for the race Rob. Fingers crossed I'll make the start line with the same target as you so you'll no doubt see me knocking around on the day. You were there for my first half last year so only right you're around for my first full! :D


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    #496
    Krusty_Clown
    Registered Users Posts: 19,505 ✭✭✭✭Krusty_Clown


    robbicosta wrote: »
    Training has been going well so far. Long run this weekend was 4k warm up 3 x 10k progressive (4:40s, 4:30s, 4:40s) and 4k cool down. Sorry about kms but have gone metric since moving to Oz. Getting some solid sessions in with a training group that meet in the city at lunch most days (http://hurtsquad.com/) and ran a consistently paced 84:22 at the Sydney half marathon last week.
    Rob
    Sounds like a great session robbicosta. Was the last 10k at 4:40 pace, or is that a typo? 4:40 would be approximately 3:17 marathon pace, if my maths don't fail me. Have you done much work at marathon pace?

    I'd imagine coming from an ultra background, endurance is not going to be an issue (similar to BetterThanHoyte from a tri background), but speed-endurance is probably where a couple of runners like yourselves could focus (e.g. long runs with 50-70% of the miles at planned marathon pace), or progression runs finishing at (or faster than) marathon pace. But regardless, 23 miles is a hell of a session (still plenty of time to adjust to miles! The course has previously been marked in miles, with 5k markers).

    *Edit*: Some of Tergat's suggested marathon pace workouts


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    #497
    Dutchie
    Registered Users Posts: 364 ✭✭Dutchie


    Krusty_Clown wrote: »
    Hi Jebus, congrats on a cracking time. Half marathon performance is one of the best indicators you can use for predicting the marathon, but unfortunately it's not foolproof either. You need to start thinking about doing some PMP sessions at your new target pace and see how they feel.

    So might be an idea to do something like the following for the next three weekends:
    This weekend: 18 miles with 10@PMP
    Next weekend: 22 miles easy
    Following weekend: 20 miles with 12@PMP

    You'll get a good idea of how target pace feels and can make a more informed decision at that stage.

    I followed your advice at the weekend with a 20 mile run complete with 12m at pmp all average 6.45. Overall average pace was 6.59. The pmp's miles in the middle of the long run gave me a great confidence booster knowing that I can sustain this pace whilst carrying my water, gels and having to stop for traffic etc.

    I finshed the park half marathon in 1.21.30 so I like to think I've good speed in the legs (or am I taking rubbish?!)

    Some great sessions outlined in the above posts. Great advice lads much appreciated.

    Btw will the DCM pacers ease back the pace going up hill ( eg roebook rd) and increase pace going downhill?

    Thanks.


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    #498
    theboyblunder
    Registered Users Posts: 2,054 ✭✭✭theboyblunder


    Dutchie wrote: »

    I finshed the park half marathon in 1.21.30 so I like to think I've good speed in the legs (or am I taking rubbish?!)

    A 1:21 half means you are easily fast enough speed wise. If you have the long runs done and pace it sensibly on race day it should be in the bag.
    Dutchie wrote: »

    Btw will the DCM pacers ease back the pace going up hill ( eg roebook rd) and increase pace going downhill?

    Nope, they run at even pace all the way round.
    Good luck!


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    #499
    carlton36
    Registered Users Posts: 61 ✭✭carlton36


    theboyblunder wrote: »
    A 1:21 half means you are easily fast enough speed wise. If you have the long runs done and pace it sensibly on race day it should be in the bag.



    Nope, they run at even pace all the way round.
    Good luck!

    Hi, what pace do the 3 hours run at? How much do they allow for a safety margin and also the extra time + distance as a result of not running 'the blue/racing' line? Thanks


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    #500
    robbicosta
    Registered Users Posts: 108 ✭✭robbicosta


    Krusty_Clown wrote: »
    Sounds like a great session robbicosta. Was the last 10k at 4:40 pace, or is that a typo? 4:40 would be approximately 3:17 marathon pace, if my maths don't fail me. Have you done much work at marathon pace?

    I'd imagine coming from an ultra background, endurance is not going to be an issue (similar to BetterThanHoyte from a tri background), but speed-endurance is probably where a couple of runners like yourselves could focus (e.g. long runs with 50-70% of the miles at planned marathon pace), or progression runs finishing at (or faster than) marathon pace. But regardless, 23 miles is a hell of a session (still plenty of time to adjust to miles! The course has previously been marked in miles, with 5k markers).

    *Edit*: Some of Tergat's suggested marathon pace workouts

    Sorry, meant to say 4:40s, 4:30s and 4:20s. We actually did the last 10k at 4:15s so finished strong.
    Another session I like to do (on Thursdays) is 20 minutes at 4:10 pace, 2 mins rest, 10 minutes at 4:00 pace, 2 mins rest and 10 minutes at 3:50 pace. I run this with a guy who has run 2:53 and he swears by it.


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    #501
    robbicosta
    Registered Users Posts: 108 ✭✭robbicosta


    BetterThanHoyte wrote: »
    Good to see you coming home for the race Rob. Fingers crossed I'll make the start line with the same target as you so you'll no doubt see me knocking around on the day. You were there for my first half last year so only right you're around for my first full! :D

    Eugene? How's the training going?


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    #502
    TFBubendorfer
    Registered Users Posts: 6,340 ✭✭✭TFBubendorfer


    carlton36 wrote: »
    Hi, what pace do the 3 hours run at? How much do they allow for a safety margin and also the extra time + distance as a result of not running 'the blue/racing' line? Thanks

    They aim to come in at about 2:59 or 2:59:30; about 6:48-6:50 pace, and if you have a Garmin that will display another couple of seconds less.


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    #503
    Krusty_Clown
    Registered Users Posts: 19,505 ✭✭✭✭Krusty_Clown


    robbicosta wrote: »
    Krusty_Clown wrote: »
    Sounds like a great session robbicosta. Was the last 10k at 4:40 pace, or is that a typo? 4:40 would be approximately 3:17 marathon pace, if my maths don't fail me. Have you done much work at marathon pace?

    I'd imagine coming from an ultra background, endurance is not going to be an issue (similar to BetterThanHoyte from a tri background), but speed-endurance is probably where a couple of runners like yourselves could focus (e.g. long runs with 50-70% of the miles at planned marathon pace), or progression runs finishing at (or faster than) marathon pace. But regardless, 23 miles is a hell of a session (still plenty of time to adjust to miles! The course has previously been marked in miles, with 5k markers).

    *Edit*: Some of Tergat's suggested marathon pace workouts

    Sorry, meant to say 4:40s, 4:30s and 4:20s. We actually did the last 10k at 4:15s so finished strong.
    Another session I like to do (on Thursdays) is 20 minutes at 4:10 pace, 2 mins rest, 10 minutes at 4:00 pace, 2 mins rest and 10 minutes at 3:50 pace. I run this with a guy who has run 2:53 and he swears by it.
    That's what I figured. With sessions like that, you should blast through the 3 hour mark.


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    #504
    jebuz
    Registered Users Posts: 1,771 ✭✭✭jebuz


    Krusty, as per your advice, I got a 20m in at the weekend with 1-8 @ ~7:40 and 8-18 @ ~6:50 which went pretty well, sustained the pace quite comfortably and warmed down for 2m so good session and as mentioned above it's a great confidence booster, the advice is much appreciated.

    I've entered a 10k on the 13th Oct, about 2 weeks out, the target is a sub 38 but won't be overly worried if I don't hit that, my half time has already given me the confidence of a sub 3.

    Next week will be 24m with 12 @ MP, going to do it on the marathon route with a couple of other lads aiming for a sub 3, just hope the wet stuff clears up


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    #505
    Krusty_Clown
    Registered Users Posts: 19,505 ✭✭✭✭Krusty_Clown


    jebuz wrote: »
    Krusty, as per your advice, I got a 20m in at the weekend with 1-8 @ ~7:40 and 8-18 @ ~6:50 which went pretty well, sustained the pace quite comfortably and warmed down for 2m so good session and as mentioned above it's a great confidence booster, the advice is much appreciated.

    I've entered a 10k on the 13th Oct, about 2 weeks out, the target is a sub 38 but won't be overly worried if I don't hit that, my half time has already given me the confidence of a sub 3.

    Next week will be 24m with 12 @ MP, going to do it on the marathon route with a couple of other lads aiming for a sub 3, just hope the wet stuff clears up
    Great stuff jebuz. A couple of comments on your 24m run though:
    1) It's bloody long for a PMP session. Would you not consider shortening the overall length of the run, so that the primary focus is on the PMP rather than the length of the run? i.e. perhaps you should have one theme for your you run; either PMP miles or distance, but not both at the same time. For example, a Daniels Running Formula long PMP run would be: 2 mile warm-up, 15 miles @PMP, 2 mile warm-down. A P&D Advanced marathoning PMP run would be 17 miles (12 @PMP).

    2) I'd kind of question the wisdom of trying to do a PMP run on the Dublin route. You will spend so much time stopping for traffic lights, and dodging pedestrians that it will be extremely difficult to hit and stay on pace. If you're doing a pmp session, it's probably better to do it in a conducive environment (one that will mimic race day). Not saying that running much of the Dublin route is a bad idea, just not the best environment for a PMP session.


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    #506
    jebuz
    Registered Users Posts: 1,771 ✭✭✭jebuz


    Thanks Krusty, yeah I get what you're saying there, focus on the PMP or the distance, it makes sense. My brother in law is running 24 of route next week and is planning on some PMP miles so I said I'd head along, I'll have a word and maybe we can just focus on distance this week and get a good PMP session done in the park the next week and that will be the last hard long run before the taper.

    I did have reservations about maintaining the effort with pedestrians and traffic lights getting in the way. I like the idea of having completed the majority of the route in training, but it makes sense getting this session done with emphasis on the distance rather than effort.


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    #507
    Rolex_
    Registered Users Posts: 150 ✭✭Rolex_


    Hi guys... ran 3:02:36 in London in April with almost no PMP miles but did 3 long runs of 20-22 miles @ average 7:10 pace approx with negative split [because I knew no better?]. I had done no speedwork worth talking about, apart from 2 or 3 races (5 and 10 milers)

    This time around I followed P&D pretty faithfully with mileage peaking at 65pw (a lot more than last time). The plan doesnt actually include that many PMP miles -only 44 in the whole 17 weeks. I've more or less done what I've been told - rest of long runs slower and I've exceeded the prescribed speed sessions.

    Some of the sessions you guys are doing make me exhausted just thinking about them - fair play.

    Off to Berlin on Sunday so we'll see if orthodoxy and hard work pays off- fingers crossed I shake off this fecking head cold I have before Sunday!!!!


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    #508
    ThePiedPiper
    Registered Users Posts: 2,643 ✭✭✭ThePiedPiper


    Jebuz, I'd definitely go along with Krusty on the issue of the 24 mile run. There's certainly value in a 22-24 mile run but putting a lot of PMP miles in there will only compromise the rest of your sessions for the following week. The longest I go up to in training is 23 miles, and this is typically done a couple of months out from a goal marathon and usually at PMP + 50-60 seconds. The long run is only one of 3-4 key weekly sessions that are all important. In the past, I've been more guilty than most for putting too much into the LSRs.


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    #509
    Krusty_Clown
    Registered Users Posts: 19,505 ✭✭✭✭Krusty_Clown


    Rolex_ wrote: »
    Hi guys... ran 3:02:36 in London in April with almost no PMP miles but did 3 long runs of 20-22 miles @ average 7:10 pace approx with negative split [because I knew no better?]. I had done no speedwork worth talking about, apart from 2 or 3 races (5 and 10 milers)

    This time around I followed P&D pretty faithfully with mileage peaking at 65pw (a lot more than last time). The plan doesnt actually include that many PMP miles -only 44 in the whole 17 weeks. I've more or less done what I've been told - rest of long runs slower and I've exceeded the prescribed speed sessions.

    Some of the sessions you guys are doing make me exhausted just thinking about them - fair play.

    Off to Berlin on Sunday so we'll see if orthodoxy and hard work pays off- fingers crossed I shake off this fecking head cold I have before Sunday!!!!
    It's the one thing that bothered me about the P&D plans (particularly the second generation of the book); there just didn't seem to be a great number of PMP runs and towards the end of the training plan, there were no marathon pace miles at all (with the exception of 2 PMP miles in the final week). I typically supplemented the long runs with PMP miles, or faster section (e.g. progression runs) to fill the gap. Daniels (Plan A) on the other hand has two 15 mile marathon pace runs (for 19 miles in total) 7 weeks and 3 weeks out from the race.


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    #510
    Rolex_
    Registered Users Posts: 150 ✭✭Rolex_


    Krusty_Clown wrote: »
    It's the one thing that bothered me about the P&D plans (particularly the second generation of the book); there just didn't seem to be a great number of PMP runs and towards the end of the training plan, there were no marathon pace miles at all (with the exception of 2 PMP miles in the final week). I typically supplemented the long runs with PMP miles, or faster section (e.g. progression runs) to fill the gap. Daniels (Plan A) on the other hand has two 15 mile marathon pace runs (for 19 miles in total) 7 weeks and 3 weeks out from the race.

    Yea that makes sense in fairness KC. Hopefully the PMP and speed sessions I have done this time compared to last time will be enough to take me home a bit faster


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    #511
    nerraw1111
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,818 ✭✭✭nerraw1111


    Re pmp miles, generally speaking, how should you feel after it? I did 29km today with 23 at pmp and I was fairly wrecked.


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