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The Sub 3 Support Thread

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    #932
    davedanon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,062 ✭✭✭davedanon


    There are a lot of questions in there far beyond my ken or competence to answer, but luckily there are plenty on here with the requisite. All I'll say is, there's some mighty impressive times there, and the sub-3 is a racing certainty as long as you arrive at the start line with the mileage done and the endurance in place.


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    #933
    rom
    Registered Users Posts: 5,135 ✭✭✭rom


    ainsyjnr wrote: »
    Hi guys, I am currently thinking about how I approach my training for Dublin this year and would like a few opinions please.

    History: Tried sub 3 Dublin '13 off the back of two pb's a 37:48 10k & 1:25:30 HM (I had faded in the last 3 miles). Marathon; blew up at 22. reasons; poor race day nutrition and lack off endurance (averaged 42mpw) had done JD plan A.

    London Apr 14. averaged 59mpw on 12 week P&D plan. Ran an enjoyable race, aimed for 3:05 but faded a little to 3:08. ran all the way, no wall.

    Now...just ran pb HM in 1:24:07, 2 weeks earlier a 10k pb 37:35 6 weeks after marathon with little speed training.

    I wanted to get my 10k pb under 36mins and had planned to use JD 5k to 15k plan for a goal race mid Sep.

    To build my endurance I was then going to try and weave in some longer threshold runs on alternate weeks and long runs each week during August and Sep before a mini taper for the 10k then 3 weeks of marathon specific training before a 2 week taper. My 12 week average will still amount to 59mpw but my intensity will be higher and hopefully my speed better, mid mid-week long run does look a little light at 11-12 miles although on alternate weeks they will be Tempo based.

    Do you think I will end up compromising both goals or could this actually work with the Threshold stuff complimenting the 10k and the long runs maintaining the endurance I have built this year?

    Or should I just build more endurance through Jul-Aug and fit in some faster stuff around the core of a P&D plan that has a good mid-week long run and solid weekend run? Seeing as my main goal is the sub 3...but would that give me the sub 36 10k also?

    If your fading or hitting the wall then its the lack of enough long runs. I have no fear of hitting any wall. You probably need to target 2:55 to get your sub 3 also. Targeting sub3 will result in you falling short. Have a look at my plan a few pages back. It was perfect. I did trade some speed for endurance but it was means to an end. Have you ever neg split a marathon ?


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    #934
    TFBubendorfer
    Registered Users Posts: 6,340 ✭✭✭TFBubendorfer


    ainsyjnr wrote: »
    Now...just ran pb HM in 1:24:07, 2 weeks earlier a 10k pb 37:35 6 weeks after marathon with little speed training.

    I wanted to get my 10k pb under 36mins and had planned to use JD 5k to 15k plan for a goal race mid Sep.

    With your 10k time a sub-3 should definitely be on the cards, but your times are getting relatively worse the longer the race, so I'd hazard a guess that your endurance is lacking.

    More miles and longer long runs is what I would recommend, but don't neglect speed work either.

    The good news is that this will improve your 10k times as well.


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    #935
    Clearlier
    Registered Users Posts: 4,454 ✭✭✭Clearlier


    TFBubendorfer wrote: »
    More miles and longer long runs is what I would recommend, but don't neglect speed work either.

    The good news is that this will improve your 10k times as well.

    Agree with everything except perhaps the speedwork. When you look at your plan over a year or so then most people will benefit from including at least some speedwork but this runners times so clearly taper off the longer the distance that I suspect a total focus on emdurance would get them there. They already have the speed and the 10k time indicates sub-3 but the half doesn't.

    P&D 55-70 plan 18 weeks carefully adhered to especially in ensuring that you don't go too fast on your runs amd I think that you'll nail it.


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    #936
    dublin runner
    Registered Users Posts: 2,065 ✭✭✭dublin runner


    Clearlier wrote: »
    ......They already have the speed and the 10k time indicates sub-3 but the half doesn't.

    Really? He ran a 1.24 HM. Sounds about bang on for a sub-3 attempt to me. In saying that, it's hard to know as it really depends on the type of runner you are. Like has been mentioned, endurance is the key. Working off that HM time is a great starting point.


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    #937
    menoscemo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,915 ✭✭✭✭menoscemo


    dublin runner wrote: »
    Really? He ran a 1.24 HM. Sounds about bang on for a sub-3 attempt to me. In saying that, it's hard to know as it really depends on the type of runner you are. Like has been mentioned, endurance is the key. Working off that HM time is a great starting point.

    I'd Imagine it's cos the 37.XX should indicate a faster HM time, probably 1:22-1:23.
    If a 38 Minute 10k guy/girl ran a 1:24 Half I would back them to go sub 3.

    In defence of AinsyJR though I met him after that half (enniscorthy) and it was a very difficult course. I'd say he would run a high 1:22 on a flatter one.


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    #938
    Clearlier
    Registered Users Posts: 4,454 ✭✭✭Clearlier


    dublin runner wrote: »
    Really? He ran a 1.24 HM. Sounds about bang on for a sub-3 attempt to me. In saying that, it's hard to know as it really depends on the type of runner you are. Like has been mentioned, endurance is the key. Working off that HM time is a great starting point.

    IME you need a well trained runner to convert a 1:24 to sub-3. It can certainly be done and I know someone who is turned a 1:26 into sub-3 but mosr runners need a 1:23. Take into account the 10k time and that half time indicates that a sub-3 is not on.

    As a starting point to train for a sub-3 on the other hand it's fantastic.


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    #939
    dublin runner
    Registered Users Posts: 2,065 ✭✭✭dublin runner


    Clearlier wrote: »
    IME you need a well trained runner to convert a 1:24 to sub-3. It can certainly be done and I know someone who is turned a 1:26 into sub-3 but mosr runners need a 1:23. Take into account the 10k time and that half time indicates that a sub-3 is not on.

    As a starting point to train for a sub-3 on the other hand it's fantastic.

    As I don't know this runner this is slightly pointless but anyway!

    It's very hard to compare times, especially when talking about road race times. There are just too many variables (wind, hills etc). In my opinion, his HM time does equate to a sub 3 marathon if he/she has trained sufficiently. With that said, I don't put too much faith in HM times when targeting/predicting a time for the marathon. The 10km time is arbitrary. A 10km time has as much to do with a marathon as a 100m race has to do with a 5km! I know that's a bit black and white but that's just my opinion.

    A marathon paced run is the best way to gauge. If you can run for example, 16 miles @MP 5 weeks out, on tired legs during heavy training you are on target.


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    #940
    rom
    Registered Users Posts: 5,135 ✭✭✭rom


    dublin runner wrote: »
    As I don't know this runner this is slightly pointless but anyway!

    It's very hard to compare times, especially when talking about road race times. There are just too many variables (wind, hills etc). In my opinion, his HM time does equate to a sub 3 marathon if he/she has trained sufficiently. With that said, I don't put too much faith in HM times when targeting/predicting a time for the marathon. The 10km time is arbitrary. A 10km time has as much to do with a marathon as a 100m race has to do with a 5km! I know that's a bit black and white but that's just my opinion.

    A marathon paced run is the best way to gauge. If you can run for example, 16 miles @MP 5 weeks out, on tired legs during heavy training you are on target.

    +1 on this. I know 80 min 1/2 guys that can't get close to sub 3. 1/2 is only a guide. If your half time is 90 mins then forget about sub 3. Other than that its not going to tell you a load. my half was nearly 1:27 something when I ran sub 3.


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    #941
    ainsyjnr
    Registered Users Posts: 111 ✭✭ainsyjnr


    thanks for the feedback guys. I guess I am still a bit new to serious marathoning. I have been running about 8 years but only with consistency the last couple. In the last 12 months I have ran 3466km and the twelve months before that 1874km. I would have come nowhere near those two amounts in previous years.

    I also heard that its not the sub 1:25 that determines the marathon time. I can't remember the exact numbers but it was similar to your example where their HM best was 1:27 but could keep running at that pace. I couldn't negative split a half!

    I am reading the science of running by Steve Magness and he talks about slow twitch and fast twitch runners. I seem to be a fast twitch runner based on my times getting relatively worse with distance. I can over time convert some of my fibres to deal better with endurance but I will never be a 'true' slow twitch runner so am always going to struggle with endurance.

    Maybe I should go all-out endurance this time with the 18 week P&D plan, the speed is there. However, I still think fast twitch runners do not get the best out of themselves with a heavy endurance only plan. Are those Hanson plans more suitable?

    (plus I am not sure I can deal with those 2 hour long runs the P&D plan has you doing midweek!)


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    #942
    Bahanaman
    Registered Users Posts: 1,173 ✭✭✭Bahanaman


    Hi all. Just wondering if people think the following tempo session is indicative of being in sub 3 attempt territory? : 10 min warm up followed by 50 min @ 6:40 pace followed by 30 min @ 6:30 pace with 10 min warm down. Done last Friday. Marathon on the 28th. Only asking as I don't have any races done recently that could be considered as benchmarks.


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    #943
    rom
    Registered Users Posts: 5,135 ✭✭✭rom


    Bahanaman wrote: »
    Hi all. Just wondering if people think the following tempo session is indicative of being in sub 3 attempt territory? : 10 min warm up followed by 50 min @ 6:40 pace followed by 30 min @ 6:30 pace with 10 min warm down. Done last Friday. Marathon on the 28th. Only asking as I don't have any races done recently that could be considered as benchmarks.
    2.5M wu & c/d
    8M @ 6:40
    4.5M @ 6:30

    Thats only 15M. Not much of a tester to see what marathon forum u are in. Why run at 6:30 if you are targeting sub 3?

    My last long run was 8M easy, 10M at 6:40, 4M easy.


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    #944
    ainsyjnr
    Registered Users Posts: 111 ✭✭ainsyjnr


    Bahanaman wrote: »
    Hi all. Just wondering if people think the following tempo session is indicative of being in sub 3 attempt territory? : 10 min warm up followed by 50 min @ 6:40 pace followed by 30 min @ 6:30 pace with 10 min warm down. .

    My few cents worth, albeit from not a sub 3 runner...

    If you have a few 20 milers under your belt, ran this as the last session on tired legs before your taper and felt as though you had more left I think you could be in the ball park for sub 3.

    There would still need to be a few things go your way on the day. Run with a group if you can to make it a bit easier, even if they are a little slower. Make sure your carb loading gets you 7g of carbohydrate per kg of body weight from Wednesday to Friday afternoon. Taper well, get plenty of sleep the week before and stay well hydrated in the 3 or 4 days before (carb loading will store your water). I found a light sports massage from somebody who knew what they were doing 3-4 days before the race was really helpful.

    Other than that make the decision if you are to go for it, and stick to that decision. If you have any doubt that you can do it they will only get bigger as it gets harder and you will slow down. You have to believe you can do it.


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    #945
    Gavlor
    Registered Users Posts: 6,176 ✭✭✭Gavlor


    Bahanaman wrote: »
    Hi all. Just wondering if people think the following tempo session is indicative of being in sub 3 attempt territory? : 10 min warm up followed by 50 min @ 6:40 pace followed by 30 min @ 6:30 pace with 10 min warm down. Done last Friday. Marathon on the 28th. Only asking as I don't have any races done recently that could be considered as benchmarks.

    Forget about benchmarks at this stage, that plan you've followed has you in great shape for the marathon. If you can run 6.45 * 26.5 then you'll run sub 3. That session last week will be irrelevant. You have 2 very good pacers for the sub 3 in waterford, one of whom is mr f|_|cking motivator, there's no shutting him up. Stick with Dave and Brian and you'll do just fine. Don't start ahead of them as a lot of the course is isolated and you'll be glad of the company.


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    #946
    viperlogic
    Registered Users Posts: 1,304 ✭✭✭viperlogic


    P&D 55-70 plan question
    I've started the plan and notice there are very few to hardly any 400/800/1600m sessions thou there are a good few 10x100 strides pieces. Is there any harm in introducing some 400/800/1600 sessions into the plan as I'm still doing 5K-10K races about once a fortnight.


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    #947
    dublin runner
    Registered Users Posts: 2,065 ✭✭✭dublin runner


    viperlogic wrote: »
    P&D 55-70 plan question
    I've started the plan and notice there are very few to hardly any 400/800/1600m sessions thou there are a good few 10x100 strides pieces. Is there any harm in introducing some 400/800/1600 sessions into the plan as I'm still doing 5K-10K races about once a fortnight.

    It's a good plan. What's your marathon training experience? Racing is all good and well but every fortnight appears excessive. If your goal main goal is the marathon everything must lead to this.

    For example, if you race on a Sunday that will probably mean Saturday will be a very easy run (if you run at all) and Monday will be recovery, maybe even Tuesday as well. All those days really do add up. Every race has to serve a purpose when aiming/training for a marathon.

    As for speed work, that really does depend on your running history.


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    #948
    yaboya1
    Registered Users Posts: 4,610 ✭✭✭yaboya1


    Ran the Portumna Half Marathon in around 1:24 (official results still not out. Could be sub 1:24) on Saturday. I'm a little disappointed tbh as I was hoping to go sub 1:23, but McMillan still puts me below 3 hours for the marathon based on that which I suppose is some consolation.


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    #949
    Clearlier
    Registered Users Posts: 4,454 ✭✭✭Clearlier


    viperlogic wrote: »
    P&D 55-70 plan question
    I've started the plan and notice there are very few to hardly any 400/800/1600m sessions thou there are a good few 10x100 strides pieces. Is there any harm in introducing some 400/800/1600 sessions into the plan as I'm still doing 5K-10K races about once a fortnight.

    You're not following the plan if you're doing races every two weeks. The first 11 weeks (IIRC) of the 18 week plans are focused on base building. Not only are races not part of his plan they're counter-productive and wil set you back. The only exception to this is where you use a race to do a tempo (although it needs to be the right distance.) or more commonly to fit in one of the marathon paced sessions.

    Of course you could use his plan as the basis for yours and modify it to suit your needs. That's not a bad idea per se but don't kid yourself into thinking that you'll get the same results.


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    #950
    viperlogic
    Registered Users Posts: 1,304 ✭✭✭viperlogic


    dublin runner wrote: »
    It's a good plan. What's your marathon training experience? Racing is all good and well but every fortnight appears excessive. If your goal main goal is the marathon everything must lead to this.

    For example, if you race on a Sunday that will probably mean Saturday will be a very easy run (if you run at all) and Monday will be recovery, maybe even Tuesday as well. All those days really do add up. Every race has to serve a purpose when aiming/training for a marathon.

    As for speed work, that really does depend on your running history.

    Have done 4 marathons of which PB is 3:26 which was a bad day as just after it ran a 1:26 half. More info here. These races are mid week races that are typically swapped out for LT sessions but I don't race them hard although I do love the buzz of racing! But yes understand that may have to put that racing buzz fix aside to concentrate on the end goal thou taught would be ok for the first 6 weeks of the plan as I've seen discussions here of doing 5K-10K training/racing with weekend LSR's and then switch over to a 12/14 week marathon program.


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    #951
    ainsyjnr
    Registered Users Posts: 111 ✭✭ainsyjnr


    viperlogic wrote: »
    I've seen discussions here of doing 5K-10K training/racing with weekend LSR's and then switch over to a 12/14 week marathon program.

    I was thinking of doing the same myself but have come to the conclusion that building base mileage at the start is key as all the specific work is built on that. After the base is built and the fuel system trained for more fat burning then I may do a 10k but I don't want to do too much and make my body think it needs to be using more glycogen again.


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    #952
    dublin runner
    Registered Users Posts: 2,065 ✭✭✭dublin runner


    viperlogic wrote: »
    Have done 4 marathons of which PB is 3:26 which was a bad day as just after it ran a 1:26 half. More info here. These races are mid week races that are typically swapped out for LT sessions but I don't race them hard although I do love the buzz of racing! But yes understand that may have to put that racing buzz fix aside to concentrate on the end goal thou taught would be ok for the first 6 weeks of the plan as I've seen discussions here of doing 5K-10K training/racing with weekend LSR's and then switch over to a 12/14 week marathon program.

    I know what you mean about racing, I am the exact same way. I love the buzz and the atmosphere but sometimes you need to take a step back to take a step forward (horrible cliche, I know). You have to ask yourself what went right with the marathon/training and what went wrong. You have a strong base to work from. A 5/10km plan may be the way to go alright.

    What marathon are you targeting?


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    #953
    viperlogic
    Registered Users Posts: 1,304 ✭✭✭viperlogic


    dublin runner wrote: »
    What marathon are you targeting?

    Amsterdam in October


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    #954
    dublin runner
    Registered Users Posts: 2,065 ✭✭✭dublin runner


    viperlogic wrote: »
    Amsterdam in October

    Cool, a marathon I would love to do.

    It's 18 weeks so something like:

    10km/Base Training: 4 weeks
    Marathon Specific Training:12 weeks
    Taper: 2 weeks

    Something like that might be an idea. If endurance is an issue though I would work on extending both the mid run and lsr at the weekend so you are in great shape aerobically heading into the marathon specific stuff.


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    #955
    viperlogic
    Registered Users Posts: 1,304 ✭✭✭viperlogic


    Did a 5K race a few weeks ago in-between training and it was certainly lesson learned, can't do both as both suffered.

    Next question.....:D

    My planned marathon is Amsterdam on 19th of October. P&D plan has tune-up races of 8K-15K on 2, 4, and 6 weeks from marathon. Is it OK to do the Charleville Half marathon 4 weeks out from the marathon or is it too much in terms of distance, 21K, and required recovery days? Each tune-up race has a long run the day after!


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    #956
    ecoli
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,762 ✭✭✭✭ecoli


    viperlogic wrote: »
    My planned marathon is Amsterdam on 19th of October. P&D plan has tune-up races of 8K-15K on 2, 4, and 6 weeks from marathon. Is it OK to do the Charleville Half marathon 4 weeks out from the marathon or is it too much in terms of distance, 21K, and required recovery days? Each tune-up race has a long run the day after!

    There was actually a good thread on this topic a few months back (ignore the initial trolling)

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057142361


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    #957
    yaboya1
    Registered Users Posts: 4,610 ✭✭✭yaboya1


    Another two races ticked off in the past fortnight (Fingal 10k and Mullingar 10 Mile). My PB's now look like this:


    5k: 17:54
    5m: 29:58
    10k: 37:07
    10m: 61:39
    HM: 1:24:10

    *all achieved since May 2014

    The top four point to a marathon in the mid 2:50's, while I hope to improve the HM time in a few weeks to indicate the same. Feeling confident about my sub 3 bid in September :).


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    #958
    Bahanaman
    Registered Users Posts: 1,173 ✭✭✭Bahanaman


    yaboya1 wrote: »
    Another two races ticked off in the past fortnight (Fingal 10k and Mullingar 10 Mile). My PB's now look like this:


    5k: 17:54
    5m: 29:58
    10k: 37:07
    10m: 61:39
    HM: 1:24:10

    *all achieved since May 2014

    The top four point to a marathon in the mid 2:50's, while I hope to improve the HM time in a few weeks to indicate the same. Feeling confident about my sub 3 bid in September :).

    Nice set of numbers there yaboya. Mad jealous! You're flying. Keep it up.


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    #959
    FBOT01
    Registered Users Posts: 2,447 ✭✭✭FBOT01


    yaboya1 wrote: »
    Another two races ticked off in the past fortnight (Fingal 10k and Mullingar 10 Mile). My PB's now look like this:


    5k: 17:54
    5m: 29:58
    10k: 37:07
    10m: 61:39
    HM: 1:24:10

    *all achieved since May 2014

    The top four point to a marathon in the mid 2:50's, while I hope to improve the HM time in a few weeks to indicate the same. Feeling confident about my sub 3 bid in September :).

    I too am feeling confident about your sub 3 bid in September:)

    Just keep doing the basics right, like you have been all year and you will have put yourself in a great place to go for it in Berlin :pac::pac::pac:


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    #960
    yaboya1
    Registered Users Posts: 4,610 ✭✭✭yaboya1


    17:15 in Marlay this morning.
    Still on target :)


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    #961
    Ferris B
    Registered Users Posts: 743 ✭✭✭Ferris B


    yaboya1 wrote: »
    17:15 in Marlay this morning.
    Still on target :)

    You need to move to the sub 2:45 thread.


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