The Sub 3 Support Thread

As a wise 49* year old, I'm going to give me tuppence worth here.

I reckon I'm about half way between Krusty and Dave on this. I'm aiming for sub 3 in my next marathon and will train for it for the first time. There are days I think I'll do it no problem and there are days I despair. If (and it's a fairly big one) you put in the effort and do a full programme like JD or P&D, hit the sessions, do all the miles required ...... then age shouldn't really come into it.

I've been running now for 6 or 7 years and doing marathons for the last 3 and a bit. Not unlike Dave my times have improved but nothing massive and I do think some of the younger folk on here seem to take huge chunks off their times; lads going from 3.40 to 2.58 or so. I've gone 3.32, 3.25, 3.14, 3.12, 3.09

I'm optimistic about the sub 3. I'll give it 2 or 3 lashes I hope (unless I nail it on the first attempt) and if it doesn't happen I can always move up to the old Ultra Game!

*in a few days time.

rom wrote: »

If you don't believe that you can do it then you never will.

Absolutely, and it's the one major reason why a lot of runners never ever get anywhere near their potential.

The day I celebrated my 40th birthday I more or less conceded to myself that now I would never go sub-3. I had gotten as close as 3:05 a year earlier (and that after losing my will when I realised at mile 21 that sub-3 was off the table) but had stagnated and was at around 3:10 at best.

I just needed someone who believed in me and convinced me that I would definitely break 3 hours to do it.

davedanon wrote: »

This exchange has been a bit like being buttonholed in the pub by a bunch of people to rebut something which you never said in the first place, but anyhoo, let's put that aside. I know you all mean well, and even if I NEVER SAID THAT AGE IS A NEGATIVE FACTOR IN GOING SUB-3, I will admit, since that's what some of you assumed, to having doubts about my own ability. I think that's only natural, and my instinct is to tackle the problem bit-by-bit, and sneak up on the 3 hour mark, rather than announce to all and sundry that I'll smash it in Dublin, no bother. I'm not lazy, meno and ecoli can attest to that, and I'm not making excuses for myself. There was a bit of inter-club banter earlier, and in actual fact, Tallaght is quite strong at 0-50 level right now. I can name 5/6 people there, who have gone sub-3 in the last couple of years, or are quite capable of it. Their performances are an inspiration and a powerful motivational tool for me. Can I not admit to a twinge of doubt about my own chances, without getting pilloried for it? And yes, I do know that I need to believe I can do it.

I paced a couple of those lads, when they ran sub-3 in Kildare. Strong as lions they were.

Age has a lot to do with it, imo. Anyone under the age of 35 should be able to train up to a sub-3 marathon, I reckon.

The problem with a statement like that (without any context) is that it can be interpreted in many ways, not least that sub-3 marathons is a young person's game and those Tallaght legends are all the proof we need that it isn't the case. So the point wasn't to rebut something you never said, but rather to provide clarity to others visiting this discussion, that being over 35 doesn't mean you cannot target a sub-3 marathon. Sub-3 is after all, just an arbitrary number.

I think it's true that runners over 35 years of age will not have quite the same recovery rates as younger men and women, however, this is somewhat compensated in other areas, such as a better understanding of one's own limitations, wisdom, and patience. Of course you can have doubt in your own ability to run sub-3. I ran 3:00:50 in Berlin a couple of years back, and was absolutely certain that I would never be able to run faster than that. The next few marathons were: 2:55, 2:48, 2:48, 2:46, 2:43, 2:38, and 2:38. The thing that always held me back (particularly those marathons where I didn't make any gains) was self-doubt.

davedanon wrote: »

Can I not admit to a twinge of doubt about my own chances, without getting pilloried for it? And yes, I do know that I need to believe I can do it.

You're a very sensitiveness soul - nobody has pilloried anyone in this thread!

The trouble with a statement like "anyone under 35 can run sub-3" is that it can be read the other way as well - "not anyone over 35 can run sub-3". If anything, you set the age threshold much too low and can add at least 10 years.

I've got a friend you set his marathon at the age of 47, at 2:47. He even had the cheek to be disappointed as he was going for 2:45.

Another friend of mine set his PB at the age of 54 (or was it 53?), and he had been running for at least 20 years by then.

Bahanaman wrote: »

I'm 39 and am thinking of a crack at the sub 3 in Waterford on the 28th. Am I allowed?! Only joking. Not sure if I'm capable but the training has been going well and suggests it might be on. I'll give it a lash anyway and am looking at all the positives as to why it will happen!

What a beautiful part of the world to target sub 3!

Second half is nice and flat so if you are half way in 1.28.30ish you'll be in with a real chance. Just prepare yourself for a quiet stretch of road from 19-25, there won't be too many spectators around there

davedanon wrote: »

This exchange has been a bit like being buttonholed in the pub by a bunch of people to rebut something which you never said in the first place, but anyhoo, let's put that aside. I know you all mean well, and even if I NEVER SAID THAT AGE IS A NEGATIVE FACTOR IN GOING SUB-3, I will admit, since that's what some of you assumed, to having doubts about my own ability. I think that's only natural, and my instinct is to tackle the problem bit-by-bit, and sneak up on the 3 hour mark, rather than announce to all and sundry that I'll smash it in Dublin, no bother. I'm not lazy, meno and ecoli can attest to that, and I'm not making excuses for myself. There was a bit of inter-club banter earlier, and in actual fact, Tallaght is quite strong at 0-50 level right now. I can name 5/6 people there, who have gone sub-3 in the last couple of years, or are quite capable of it. Their performances are an inspiration and a powerful motivational tool for me. Can I not admit to a twinge of doubt about my own chances, without getting pilloried for it? And yes, I do know that I need to believe I can do it.

Why ask for advise if you are not willing to listen? There is nothing wrong with confidence. Self confidence and expectation that you will achieve is what is needed in the last few miles. However this "twinge" sounds a lot more than that.

A guy in my club runs 2:35 every marathon and is over 50. Why not inspire a few people of your own?

ThebitterLemon wrote: »

You've a year on me but our times and ultimate goal are similar.

Tried to see if you had a log but couldn't find one, are you following a program and what marathon are you targeting for the sub 3.

I decided to try to go from 3.09 to 3.04 before I give the sub three a blast as I think the almost 10 min improvement is a big ask.

TbL

TBL, No log as I tend to be a bit disorganised.

As for the 3.09 to 3.04 that is the 'old' me right there!! But this time I've decided to be more aggressive with the goal. I'm about to start on the Daniels 2Q plan for 56 to 70 miles and if I stick with it I'll have done a more structured training bout that the previous ones. I'm hoping the difference and some of those '10 E+6@MP+2@T+2E+.......' sessions will see me better prepared.

The target is Frankfurt. Never done it before but flat and good support with a decent sized field compared to my fairly local Metz marathon two weeks earlier. I will use this thread as a mini log.

Best of luck to you and to Dave as we head towards the Nirvana of 2.59!!

davedanon wrote: »

Good luck to all who seek the Grail! I see lots of mentions of P&D, which a little googling tells me stands for Pfitzinger & Douglas. I can see why it's abbreviated. Are these plans available online? Purchase only?

It's actually a book, though there may be a Kindle version of the book online. You can have a preview on the Amazon page here. They are highly structured plans that set out exactly what you should do each day (and typically, what pace or heart rate you should do it at). The general feedback is that the plans are very good (particularly for improving marathon runners rather than those setting out to do their first marathon), however, there are some suggestions that the plans could be supplemented with additional marathon pace workouts/sessions.

ThebitterLemon wrote: »

You've a year on me but our times and ultimate goal are similar.

Tried to see if you had a log but couldn't find one, are you following a program and what marathon are you targeting for the sub 3.

I decided to try to go from 3.09 to 3.04 before I give the sub three a blast as I think the almost 10 min improvement is a big ask.

TbL

Must admit I'm loath to offer advice as don't think I'm even remotely qualified but my own approach was just to go for it based off the Mallow 10 back in '11! I decided that if the McMillan calc thought I could nip under 3h then I was just going to take it as gospel and give it a lash despite having been training for a time of ~3:10

Result was 2:59:51 in Leipzig in April '11. No it wasn't easy as I lost the guy pacing 2:59 in the last two k but figured I had a small bit of head room & yes I was well over 40 at the time! Previous PB was just under 3:19 in Berlin in Oct the previous year.

opus wrote: »

Must admit I'm loath to offer advice as don't think I'm even remotely qualified but my own approach was just to go for it based off the Mallow 10 back in '11! I decided that if the McMillan calc thought I could nip under 3h then I was just going to take it as gospel and give it a lash despite having been training for a time of ~3:10

Result was 2:59:51 in Leipzig in April '11. No it wasn't easy as I lost the guy pacing 2:59 in the last two k but figured I had a small bit of head room & yes I was well over 40 at the time! Previous PB was just under 3:19 in Berlin in Oct the previous year.

Thanks Opus,

That was great going well done. My weakness is I'm quite slow over the shorter distances but I counter balance that with reasonable endurance. I don't think for example that I'll run a 18.30 5k. I suppose what I'm trying to say is that I think I'm only capable of small improvements over a training cycle. ROM might come back and say that I'm mentally unprepared for a sub 3 but I don't think so, it's just that I think my body takes a while to acclimatise to the increased effort and that a 10 min jump for me over a training cycle seems like a big ask.

Appreciate your input.

Tnx

TbL

Hi guys, I am currently thinking about how I approach my training for Dublin this year and would like a few opinions please.

History: Tried sub 3 Dublin '13 off the back of two pb's a 37:48 10k & 1:25:30 HM (I had faded in the last 3 miles). Marathon; blew up at 22. reasons; poor race day nutrition and lack off endurance (averaged 42mpw) had done JD plan A.

London Apr 14. averaged 59mpw on 12 week P&D plan. Ran an enjoyable race, aimed for 3:05 but faded a little to 3:08. ran all the way, no wall.

Now...just ran pb HM in 1:24:07, 2 weeks earlier a 10k pb 37:35 6 weeks after marathon with little speed training.

I wanted to get my 10k pb under 36mins and had planned to use JD 5k to 15k plan for a goal race mid Sep.

To build my endurance I was then going to try and weave in some longer threshold runs on alternate weeks and long runs each week during August and Sep before a mini taper for the 10k then 3 weeks of marathon specific training before a 2 week taper. My 12 week average will still amount to 59mpw but my intensity will be higher and hopefully my speed better, mid mid-week long run does look a little light at 11-12 miles although on alternate weeks they will be Tempo based.

Do you think I will end up compromising both goals or could this actually work with the Threshold stuff complimenting the 10k and the long runs maintaining the endurance I have built this year?

Or should I just build more endurance through Jul-Aug and fit in some faster stuff around the core of a P&D plan that has a good mid-week long run and solid weekend run? Seeing as my main goal is the sub 3...but would that give me the sub 36 10k also?