People's opinions on races leading up to a marathon

TRR · 06-02-2014 12:15am #1

Just been reading through some logs and there seems to be a bit of debate regards what's the best approach to take regards racing in the weeks immediately before a goal marathon. My approach in the past is generally find a 10k 2 weeks out and race it quite hard. Would probably have done a half marathon 6 weeks beforehand as well. Having said that, 2 out of my 3 fastest marathons had little or no build up races so this has me thinking!

Also last October I did a 5k pretty hard 9 days out from DCM and I really think that this was one of the factors that may have messed things up for me and won't be something I'll do again. I may still consider a 10k 2 weeks out but not at full out effort.

So what are other peoples experiences and anyone know what the (peer reviewed) science recommends? I know everyone is different but just interested to hear opinions.

rom · 06-02-2014 12:33am

Personally I would not race from 5 weeks out. Last long run at 3 weeks out. Some run a hard effort a week or two out. Never have. Was talking to a sub 2:20 guy who thinks running a 5k or 4 miler a week/10 days out is madness but that is just one opinion.

ger664 · 06-02-2014 1:31am

P&D have a prep race followed by a long run 3 weeks out. It also has the same but the prep race is longer 5 weeks out. I am currently doing this and raced 10 miler Dungarvan followed by 15 miles the night after. My legs where pretty shot on Tuesday, but I was flying on my last 20 miler on Sunday morning so maybe there is some method to it. Will be running 5 miles/10K at race pace on Saturday followed by 16 miles Sunday. Marathon is Seville on 23rd so we will see what happens.,

yaboya1 · 06-02-2014 12:57pm

I am also following P&D. Racing the Enniscorthy 10k this weekend, followed by a 16 mile LSR the next day. The only bit of hard running after that on the plan is a VO2 Max session next week. As above, we'll see how it goes.

TRR · 06-02-2014 1:10pm

ger664 wrote: »

P&D have a prep race followed by a long run 3 weeks out. It also has the same but the prep race is longer 5 weeks out.

Personally I can sometimes hardly walk after the day of a race so this wouldn't be an option for me but can see the potential benefit if the biomechanics stand up to it!

Krusty_Clown · 06-02-2014 2:01pm

TRR wrote: »

Personally I can sometimes hardly walk after the day of a race so this wouldn't be an option for me but can see the potential benefit if the biomechanics stand up to it!

I've never had any great issues with doing a long run the day after a build-up race, which I think is down to commitment levels. You would probably give 100% in a build-up race, whereas I'd only be prepared to give 90%. So tune-up races may suit some, more than others. Lazy people like me can get away with having them a little closer to their goal marathon, while those who commit more are probably better to leave a little more room. Plausible?

barryoneill50 · 06-02-2014 2:52pm

would a hm 4 weeks before a full be pushing it??

TRR · 06-02-2014 3:34pm

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

I've never had any great issues with doing a long run the day after a build-up race, which I think is down to commitment levels. You would probably give 100% in a build-up race, whereas I'd only be prepared to give 90%. So tune-up races may suit some, more than others. Lazy people like me can get away with having them a little closer to their goal marathon, while those who commit more are probably better to leave a little more room. Plausible?

yeah maybe so. I race sparingly enough so when I do I usually give it a good blast. I can think of a couple of races where I have given it 100%, but I would have usually run 10 miles before them and then do the race at MP for example.

The way things are falling at the moment I'll probably do the Bohermeen half marathon but I'll need an easy week after that, from experience I know I'll be wrecked and susceptible to an injury. This cuts into peak training so is also an issue. I think there is a 4 mile race 2 weeks before my goal marathon so I will probably give this a good blast but apart from that I don't think I'll race.

ThePiedPiper · 06-02-2014 4:24pm

I did a 6k cross country 7 days out from Chicago marathon last year. I possibly turned a chesty cough into a chest infection, although I don't think it particularly slowed me down. I wouldn't repeat it if I was sick again but as a sharpener, I think there's merit in a decent workout.. Don't think I'd stretch it any further than 8-10k..

RayCun · 06-02-2014 7:10pm

Good thread.
This spring I've Bohermeen half beginning of March and Limerick 9 weeks later.
Autumn I'm running DCM, was thinking of running the Frank Duffy and the race series half, now I might just do one of FD or the Rock and Roll half.
I hadn't planned any shorter races along the way but I assumed there'd be some, now I might not do any between those longish races and the marathons. (Maybe, in some of the Daniels sessions that are (tempo + long easy run) I'll do a parkrun for the tempo?)

morceli · 06-02-2014 7:27pm

Think its a balance between risk and reward, I would have always liked to do a few shorter races in the run up but making the start line is more important than a good 5k or 10k a few weeks out. Any injury risk need to be reduced (not that i ever did that) and you can trust your training.

tunguska · 06-02-2014 7:32pm

I used to think that the more races the better but now I've done a complete 180 and think less is more. I was actually considering doing no races at all in the build up to my goal race, just throw everything at it on the day. And in training, take every 3rd week of the plan as an easy week. I know a lot of runners and honestly some of them are literally addicted to racing, they seem unable to walk away or knock a race on the head when its clearly the wrong call. One guy I know last year ran the national half and then drove out to dun laoighre to do the 10k straight after(he was too late). I think the most important thing is to get to the start line feeling physically and mentally fresh.

Larry Brent · 06-02-2014 7:45pm

I used to think a HM 5 weeks before a full marathon was ideal, but now I’m not so sure. It possibly depends on the individual, but for me to race an all out HM would mean not doing a very long run the week before, doing an abbreviated workout mid-week before the race and then not doing anything other than recovery or easy running for a week after the race. So that means 2 downish weeks after which there’s only another 2 weeks before taper. I don’t know if this is ideal and trying to do the HM all out, yet still training as normal the week before or after might just be too much.

But for a less experienced runner, when there’s not a great difference between easy/HM/marathon paces, someone training for their first marathon perhaps, the HM 5 weeks out might be ideal.

Someone on the longer 18 week type marathon plan, racing might be more important. As opposed to someone who has a shorter 8-10 week marathon specific build up, where preceding this there may have been some races at the end of that block.

My coach does not advocate racing close to the marathon. Instead he has a key workout (Hansons style) 26k at marathon effort a few weeks before. He will also have his runners take part in a HM race, but it is done as follows - 10k not quite steady, but lets say the fast end of easy range, HM race at marathon effort (taking course and conditions into account, strictly not trying to stick to marathon pace), 10k at fast end of easy pace. A 41k run, but then he likes his runners to hit marathon distance or more at least 3 times. Maybe a bit much for some, but seems to have good success with it. One of the lads went through the marathon in 2:41 as part of a 45k effort, then when doing the 10k/HM/10k workout he ran the HM portion in 73 high and 6 weeks later ran 2:27 on his debut (was seen as a great success as he has not gone under 15:30 for 5k, was running 15:50s in June/July prior to his October marathon, HM PB was about 72). One of the girls has yet to debut, but will be hoping for around 2:35 and went through the marathon in 2:56 as part of a 43k run, solo on a very cold (-15) snowy Tuesday, so we’ll see how that one goes.

TRR · 06-02-2014 9:49pm

Larry Brent wrote: »

I used to think a HM 5 weeks before a full marathon was ideal, but now I’m not so sure. It possibly depends on the individual, but for me to race an all out HM would mean not doing a very long run the week before, doing an abbreviated workout mid-week before the race and then not doing anything other than recovery or easy running for a week after the race. So that means 2 downish weeks after which there’s only another 2 weeks before taper. I don’t know if this is ideal and trying to do the HM all out, yet still training as normal the week before or after might just be too much.

yeah I make allowances similar to that. Luckily this half is 6 weeks out so after an easy week that gives me 3 hard weeks before hitting a 2 week taper. I think it's worth the adjustments to those 2 weeks as the fitness boost from a fast half are considerable in my experience. As long as I recover well it should be all good. I'm probably going to skip the race 2 weeks out now though.

Deirdree loves Rashid · 06-02-2014 10:15pm

From reading through the years anything after 6 weeks out is non productive.
I was reading some logs on the site and it looks like you're supposed to be a coach for marathon running so its pretty scary really seeing you asking this question. :eek:

TRR · 06-02-2014 10:22pm

Deirdree loves Rashid wrote: »

From reading through the years anything after 6 weeks out is non productive.
I was reading some logs on the site and it looks like you're supposed to be a coach for marathon running so its pretty scary really seeing you asking this question. :eek:

ha ha. I coach one person. I have no coaching badges. I don't claim to be a marathon guru (well I do sometimes, but people generally know I'm joking). The stuff that works for me I've found through trial and error so was just looking for other people's opinions. As you can see I tried something last October and I don't think it worked so I'm constantly assessing and reassessing things.

ecoli · 06-02-2014 10:23pm

Deirdree loves Rashid wrote: »

From reading through the years anything after 6 weeks out is non productive.
I was reading some logs on the site and it looks like you're supposed to be a coach for marathon running so its pretty scary really seeing you asking this question. :eek:

I would prefer a coach who is open to exploring alternative ideas and debating the merits of different approaches before deciding what approach they feel works best for their athletes.

The day you find a coach knows it all is the day they should stop coaching.

Deirdree loves Rashid · 06-02-2014 10:32pm

ecoli wrote: »

I would prefer a coach who is open to exploring alternative ideas and debating the merits of different approaches before deciding what approach they feel works best for their athletes.

The day you find a coach knows it all is the day they should stop coaching.

Personally I wouldn't go near a coach who considered racing less than six weeks out to be okay unless I was an elite.

TRR · 06-02-2014 10:36pm

Deirdree loves Rashid wrote: »

Personally I wouldn't go near a coach who considered racing less than six weeks out to be okay unless I was an elite.

What if the coach advocated racing within that time period and had a proven track record of getting the best out of non-elites? Would you disregard his opinion?

ecoli · 06-02-2014 10:41pm

Deirdree loves Rashid wrote: »

Personally I wouldn't go near a coach who considered racing less than six weeks out to be okay unless I was an elite.

That's your prerogative, personally if I was to be approach someone to coach me I would wanna make sure I have faith in their capabilities to get the best out of me and as such trust in their methodology to allow them to make the coaching decisions to enable that to happen.

Deirdree loves Rashid · 06-02-2014 10:44pm

TRR wrote: »

What if the coach advocated racing within that time period and had a proven track record of getting the best out of non-elites? Would you disregard his opinion?

You obviously havn't met such a person and are speaking pot otherwise you wouldn't be posting this question. You'd be boasting about the great coach you got who's gonna get you under 2.30

I don't think it would be worth it, some good quality long runs etc. with some athletes who are on the same par or at my goal level would be a far better option...in my humble opinion.

Deirdree loves Rashid · 06-02-2014 10:57pm

ecoli wrote: »

That's your prerogative, personally if I was to be approach someone to coach me I would wanna make sure I have faith in their capabilities to get the best out of me and as such trust in their methodology to allow them to make the coaching decisions to enable that to happen.

You just sound like you're defending TRR, I'm not even seeing your point of view, just camaraderie.

He already said he's had a bad experience at racing under six weeks out.
Its clear to me that he wasn't fit enough to race before the marathon and to also get his target time (if it was the race that effected his marathon result)
He'd want to be running at a higher level or lower his target time if he wants to race so close to the marathon.

heffsarmy · 06-02-2014 10:58pm

Everyone is different, but personally I think less is more. I would'nt run a half marathon within 8 weeks of marathon as it takes me too long to recover and I would be sacrificing at least two solid weeks of training on the run up to the marathon. I'd run a 10km or similar distance about 6 weeks as a blow out and use it for marathon day prep. Racing too much you sacrifice solid weeks of training, at the end of the day its the long hard runs that prep you for a marathon, the more the better.

TRR · 06-02-2014 10:59pm

Deirdree loves Rashid wrote: »

You obviously havn't met such a person and are speaking pot otherwise you wouldn't be posting this question. You'd be boasting about the great coach you got who's gonna get you under 2.30

It was a hypothetical question.

I know we have conversed a number of times before Deirdree loves Rashid!!!!!! This is the 3rd boards username you've used when replying to me. What's with the constant changing of names rasherBL or whatever you'll be calling yourself next week!

morceli · 06-02-2014 11:00pm

Deirdree loves Rashid wrote: »

You obviously havn't met such a person and are speaking pot otherwise you wouldn't be posting this question. You'd be boasting about the great coach you got who's gonna get you under 2.30

I don't think it would be worth it, some good quality long runs etc. with some athletes who are on the same par or at my goal level would be a far better option...in my humble opinion.

Maybe the crowd down in northwood would have an idea of how to do it, maybe could take a course there.

nerraw1111 · 06-02-2014 11:08pm

Don't feed the trolls. It's an interesting thread so far. It's not an exact science as already demonstrated. keeps training interesting.

Deirdree loves Rashid · 06-02-2014 11:16pm

TRR wrote: »

It was a hypothetical question.

I know we have conversed a number of times before Deirdree loves Rashid!!!!!! This is the 3rd boards username you've used when replying to me. What's with the constant changing of names rasherBL or whatever you'll be calling yourself next week!

??? Don't know what you're on about.

TRR · 06-02-2014 11:26pm

Anyway back on topic. Thanks heff, you and others have me thinking now. As I said two of my better marathons had no real prep races so is something I need to seriously consider. The fact that historically it takes me a while to recover from a half and the fact a few years have passed by means it might not be worth the risk.

sideswipe · 06-02-2014 11:40pm

Interesting thread. I'm 5 weeks out from Barca on Sunday. Was going to give the half down in Wicklow a lash on Saturday week but think I'll reconsider and run at MP after reading this thread!
I would like to get some races in, as much to try to get a racing mindset as anything else- what are peoples opinions on 5-10k races in the last few weeks? The P&D plan I'm following suggests 8-10k two weeks out.

ecoli · 06-02-2014 11:42pm

Looking at other posts there is alot I agree with

@Larry I think he is right with regards the longer approach (18 weeks) but I would say you could go further here and actually look to the type of athlete. More endurance based higher mileage runners I feel would probably get more of from an all out race for a few reasons

- Higher mileage runners will see a diminished stimulus from their aerobic training and as such an all out HM (moreso than a 5k or 10k a few weeks out) can provide just the stimulus boost to further enhance their aerobic capacity more than any controlled paced run would.
- With a higher mileage base an athlete has more flexibility to have down weeks around the race to allow for recovery. They are not compromising training by squeezing a race in to an already condense development of aerobic capacity (An easy week before and after has alot more bearing on a 10-12 week plan compared to an 18-24 week)
- Higher mileage runners often are able to recover quicker from a harder effort and as such reduce risk of illness/injury

But you need to also look beyond the physical in terms of what a confidence boost might do in terms of impacting overall mood in training and motivation - enthusiasm for training after a PB can be worth an extra week or two training in some cases. As such if a runner who has internal motivation issues they might need a boost to keep them on track.

I also agree with what was said about the benefits for first time runners simply because majority of times the sole purpose of long runs is time on their feet and as such a race environment does not have a bearing on the intensity (often there is no distinction between a race and a long run due to the completion mentality) as such again confidence can come into play. A race enviroment can enable a new runner to push through barriers mentally just due to the crowds and race atmosphere.

Given your previous base with regards build ups I think that this cycle you would probably yield better results compared to other years (due to consistency of training since you last cycle and injury free period) but ultimately there is still a fine line between risk reward ratio that I feel you are probably on the risk side only slightly

woodchopper · 06-02-2014 11:43pm

nerraw1111 wrote: »

Don't feed the trolls. It's an interesting thread so far. It's not an exact science as already demonstrated. keeps training interesting.

Firstly I believe Deirdre always loved Dev and therefore Rashid was just a replacement (think of the saying head down and think of the sister!). Rashid's death symbolised the death of the relationship between Dev and Deirdre with the arrival of Sinita.

Marathon training.

There is actually no one size fits all when it comes to marathon training. In fact Claudiio Berdalli got it horribly wrong with Stanley Biwott when he had him run 10 by 1km at 2.45 pace (last rep 2.37) one week before London. Biwott if you remember blew up horribly over the last 5-6 km.

The rule of thumb would be to run a half marathon at about 102-104% of marathon effort about six weeks out. This means running the half at approx your 30km pace. However, racing a half marathon all out does not really impair on your marathon potential. Since you will probably not taper for this race the 104% MP effort in the HMR becomes an actual all out race due to the general fatigue and lack of specific half marathon training. This is why an athlete if training correctly for the marathon should not be able to run a PB in the half unless the PB is soft relative to current fitness.

Recovery
No two athletes are the same as the auld general wisdom would contest. But an athlete who run 72 minutes for a half and is looking to run 2.29 should in theory be able to recover in time to complete a Marathon Specific workout the following weekend. Some general recovery mileage and strides would suffice during the mid-week. I notice many athletes particulary elites from the US get consumed with mileage during the Specific period of marathon training. The 8 weeks leading up to the marathon should actually be on a pair if not less than the 'Base/Speed' phase. The biggest difference would be the modulation of the final two months. i.e big days big, small days small.

Racing in the final two weeks

Sometimes needs must. A semi pro athlete may need to pick up 200 euro in a regional half marathon two weeks out from the big day. But in general they may be fit enough to run the 13.1 mile at around their target marathon pace. An all out half would be out of the question as one would be knackered for about five days. With regards to 10ks and 5ks I would advice against them as they tend to mess up your abiliy to burn fuel at a slower rate hence the mistake by Berdalli with Biwott.

Again if you are horny for racing then a controlled 10km about 90 second slower than your capability may be doable. Yet, if your not going to win the race and pick up a few euro then why bother? Most athletes would be better off doing 8 miles at marathon pace and then head in afterwards to the local race and have some tea and cake while the Racers are off doing their cool down.

Then again dont feed the Trolls.

People's opinions on races leading up to a marathon

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