Program Analysis - Programs rated, debated and berated.

Looks pretty good to me. I will add a few comments, thoughts and observations in no particular order.

1. Staying injury free should be your priority. Improvement in any martial art is based on continuity and being injury free is key to that.
2. Your mobility and stability work should be almost the fundamental part of your program...your 'weights' the stuff you've listed here is great but supplemental.
3. You core work needs some more diversity...you are doing linear work...both static and dynamic. You need to add some lateral work and some rotational work...this work is key in martial arts. A lot of martial artists don't do a lot of core work and that is fine if you get all you need in your sessions, warm ups, drilling and in sparring. I personally find that even when I am not getting exposure to resistance training that if I stay on top of my core work I don't suffer much of a performance decrement because from a strong foundation I can still apply enough force to get the job done....if your core is weak then you can't even apply much of the force that you do have.
4. I would think about having a look at your BW bench to pull up ratio and your push up and inverted row in 60 second ratio. Balance and harmony isn't only essential in martial arts but essential in weight training...particularly if you want to stay injury free.

Just some thoughts there. I looks pretty good to me though.

Dave 101 wrote: »

So more things like Russian twists, side bends for core?

That's be a good start. I think I've crapped on here about core work enough...there was a thread here on boards that I went into some detail on it. Have a look for it if you're interested.

As regards to mobility work was thinking band pulls parts and band dislocates for shoulders, hurdle step overs and fire hydrants for hips, not too sure wat to do for knees ?

As above...a good start for sure.

Or if all the above covers stability work either?

It doesn't.

, total lack of knowledge in this area is prob the reason ive had so many niggles and injuries

It's not the ONLY reason but it's sure is part of the problem you can be certain of that.

Dave 101 wrote: »

Thanks Ill try find that thread and post link here for reference, mobility and stability work will be my main googles for the next few days... cheers

I've written about mobility and stability work A LOT and for a LONG time...I was writing about it before it was cool...that long.

So finding a lot to read shouldn't be too hard. Plenty of people write about it now...just keep in mind though...you need to put it all together and not look at it in isolation.

Firstly, I didn't make this thread just for me to pontificate and hold court. I thought it would be a good place for people to post their programs and get some analysis and review of it along with some good general discussion from a variety of sources.

Secondly, for all the wanna be personal trainers and sport scientists here I can't believe how little actual training discussion there is. Every week there is a thread or two here from someone asking...'How do I become a gym instructor?' or 'Which is university course is better for sport science.' or 'I really want to become a personal trainer...but not so much that I'd be willing to get a job to pay for the course or have to study for...what can I do?'. Yet none of these people seem to be interested in engaging in conversation about training or training methods or training philosophy.

Thirdly, it should be a general rule here that you shouldn't offer advice on stuff that you don't know or don't understand. That you shouldn't say anything that you can't actually 'back up'. I am not saying you need to have a PhD to comment because I know better than most that having a qualification doesn't mean anything just that if you want to tell every single person that asks about training that what they need to do is to eat paleo and do starting strength at least have some reasoning for it to back it up. Feel free to say...'what about trying this or that' or 'I've seen a lot of people are doing this or that' but please don't be making statements on a forum if you don't have a clue why you are saying it or don't have any reasoning to back it up.

Any comments I make or advice I give I have a reason for both scientifically and or anecdotally through experience BUT I by no means think I have all the answers and my opinions or advice is just 'a' way or 'an' answer....to any questions there are lots of ways and lots of answers to get things done and if they have reasoning behind them it would be great to hear them.

So what am I rambling about I hear you ask...well all I am trying to say is that even if it happens rarely anywhere else on boards that it would be nice to have some intelligent and informed discussion at least in one thread...so everyone should feel free to do so in this one.

Feel free to comment on entire programs or pieces of it. Feel free to ask questions or to ask for justification and or the rationale behind answers or comments.

Sangre wrote: »

Copied from other thread I de-railed....

I don't follow any set programmes and the below has been pulled by me out of nowhere. I have been working away at this more or less since New Years

I'd be interested in hearing more about the reasoning behind the program structure and also some of the exercise pairings.

Turbo_diesel wrote: »

Be interesting to hear your opinion on this as well. Was thinking of giving this program a go ahead of my first powerlifting meet in the autumn.

Da Za have you run the program before? Do you think it lacks allot of upper back work on repetition & explosive bench days?

Modify it. Make it what you need it to be. It is just a way to manage volume, intensity and recovery. Use it as a template...make the changes you need and off you go.

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

So, like many others, I have enjoyed reading Will's posts recently.

Is there a club I don't know about? A secret society maybe?

However I'd imagine I'm not the only one grimacing a little at the implications. I'm 29 years old and 140kgs plus and got back into training properly with Crossfit Ireland at the end of January. It's tough, but I'm finding the environment really good. The coaches seem to really know their stuff and having your program designed for you and access to form and nutrition advice is brilliant.

So far so good. Let me go trough my mental checklist.
1. Interested enough in health and fitness to read about it online....check.
2. 140kgs....hmmm. I am guessing that you aren't 8ft 4in which is what you'd need to have a mid range BMI so my guess is that you are overweight...so in need of a change of diet and lifestyle to improve your fitness and health....check.
3. Has managed to join a gym and remain a member while hopefully training consistently for over 4 months...check.

OK...so far so good...lets continue.

But it seems to me - and I've no doubt you'll correct me if I've interpreted you wrong

Posters do this a lot...it's like you are apologising for having an opinion. I know you are just being polite and a decent person but we might as well get a few things out of the way here as well.
1. I am not the assh*le that people seem to think I am.
2. Even when I am ridiculing/lambasting/criticising someone I am doing it with a smile on my face...I don't post angry or upset. I fight pretty much every single day...I don't mean on the internet...I mean in real life and I fight a lot of people who REALLY don't like me and say awful things to me and THEY don't even get under my skin...believe me when I tell you this...no criticism or harsh words anyone has to say to me or about me on the interweb gets to me. So feel free to speak as directly and as bluntly as you like. If you think I am wrong or out of my mind...just say it and we can work from there.
3. It's not who can internet shout the loudest that matters...your opinion is your opinion and if I can't convince you that you are wrong and I am right if I disagree with it then it really doesn't matter.

So on we go.

- that you're suggesting people in my situation (i.e. someone who had got themselves quite unhealthy through years of no / bad training and poor diet) should leave aside intense, heavy or technically demanding training and instead go walking / jogging regularly combined with mobility and stability type work with some bodyweight resistance exercises (or some variation thereof). Look after the heart and try to undo the daily damage of sitting at a desk and eat well - i.e. forget about trying to hit PBs or get into top shape again, etc.

Yes, but I have to qualify that. I will do this relatively quickly rather than in detail but hopefully you'll get my drift and if you don't then you can ask for clarification.

Looking at your statement piece by piece.

1. Yes, you should do some sort of cardiovascular work BUT that doesn't have to be walking...the effect can be gained in any number of ways...walking, cycling, swimming...or a weights circuit or touch football. What you need to look at is a cost to benefit analysis...would I choose swimming if I had dodgy shoulders...no. Would I choose walking if I had a dodgy knee....no. Would swimming be good for the person with the dodgy knee...yes. Would walking be good for the person with a dodgy shoulder...yes. Would a weights circuit that was developed with dodgy shoulders and dodgy knees in mind be a good option for both of them...yes. It is about finding the right solution for each individual...one thing isn't right for everyone but it can be right for lots of people.

2. Will proper mobility and stability work help...absolutely. Will it help everyone....absolutely. I am not saying it's essential...I know people who don't warm up at all...people who do no mobility and stability work. I also know heaps of lifters and athletes who spend half their time training around injuries and disfunction...do you know why a lot of people prefer sumo deadlifts? Do you know why most people change their bench technique? Do you know why some people don't have dips in their program? Do you know why some people don't overhead press? Do you know why some people in threads here on boards say chin ups are better for your shoulders than pull ups? Let me answer it for you...because people are retarded. Just because you can 'work around' something doesn't mean that you should. Have a bit of a think about this...have a look at old people...I mean really old people and think about the difference between the ones that you think...'I can't believe they are doing that at their age.' and then have a look at the ones that bring tears to your eyes and think about the difference between the two groups. The ones that are off on a cycling tour around Tuscany versus the ones in a walking frame, confined to chairs or bed for huge portions of the day. Then have a think about which group you want to be a part of? It is easy to be 'hardcore' in your 20's...even in your 30's...in your 40's hardcore takes management...in your 50's it takes luck. When you are in your 20's you can say 'F*ck you and f*ck your elbows.'. A lot of people who are saying that in their 20's won't have to say it in their 60's because they won't be alive and it really won't make a difference. As per usual...I could go on and on. Will scap push ups change your life...no...but you are a moron if you don't do them.

3. Resistance training...if you are in a gym and you like the gym then be all means go to the gym. I am all about finding the right solution for the right individual. What I am saying though is a lot can be achieved just doing body weight work. How many people do you know that have injured their backs or knees doing squats or deadlifts? Now, how many people in comparison do you think have injured themselves...damaged discs, ended up in rehab after doing lunges in the park? How many people have injured themselves benching as opposed to doing push ups. Have a think about all your pb's and all the training you do to achieve them...now ask yourself...do you compete? Do you often find yourself on your back pushing huge loads off yourself? Do you have a 150 kg vacuum cleaner at home that you need to pick up and put away? If you don't compete and you don't live in an alternate universe to me then why are you 'pushing the envelope' at training? Why are you even risking injury in pursuit of numbers that are never going to mean anything to anyone other than you? Strength training is great and the stimulus of strength training has hugely beneficial effects...you need to think about what your doing, how you are doing it and why is all. If you can rationalise it all to yourself...then go for it. All I am saying is there is a lot of ways to get the 'right/best' result.

Where would you set the cutoff point on this? Would you be of the opinion that anyone not chasing elite fitness for sport or competition should dial it down and focus on regular 'activity' and 'exercise' rather than 'training'?

Absolutely. Cost benefit analysis. If the cost is worth the return then go for it. I am just saying that most people don't understand the real costs...not in the short term and definitely not it the long term. If they did then most regular gym goers wouldn't be dealifting...they wouldn't be squatting and they certainly wouldn't be benching.

I don't do as much coaching now as I did in Ireland...it's more a side job for me but the coaching I do now is with some pretty high level experienced athletes...guys that have 8+ years of elite sport and coaching. I spend my ENTIRE time at training coaching...correcting, altering and improving technique...think about that...these are guys that have been coached on deadlifting, squatting and benching their entire sporting lives and they require constant coaching. People here think that telling someone to go off and do starting strength and to drink a gallon of milk a day counts as good advice? They think nothing of it...now most people don't damage themselves because they are total pussies and don't end up squatting more than their bodyweight if they are lucky and most people don't even stick to training for more than a few months BUT it is moronic advice all the same. I am going to try and say this as nicely as possible but even a lot of the people who think they really know about fitness and training and are well read don't really understand the area...they think they do...but they don't and that is cool as well...because if you understand the fundamentals...how to put together and good balanced program and how to coach the lifts adequately then things will only go wrong maybe 20% of the time.

Or is it more that anyone who doesn't have the time or knowledge to put a balanced program together (i.e. 95% + of the population) and know what they need to do in terms of rest and nutrition should confine themselves to things that can't cause long term damage?

Sounds like pretty sound thinking to me.

This post to me seems to be touching the core of your positions on the type of programs people on here are likely to be doing and it might be the basis of your advice for most non professional / elite athletes - i.e. forget about intense strength training or trying to run a marathon or whatever, just enjoy regular activity.

As I say, if I'm way misinterpreting your recent posts I apologise.

That sounds like a pretty good idea to me.

Deise Musashi wrote: »

Was that me?

If the apple fits.

In fairness, I ate three apples a day, unless I was fasting...

That's completely different then

I do enjoy your posts Will, but where were you in the early nineties when I could have used your advice (I could use it now, but I'm so bloody lazy)

Firstly, good to know that someone does and secondly, as far as coaching goes...in the early 90's I was pretty much just starting to do exactly what I am doing now.

Anyway, the Apple Diet is mine, I used it and I'll franchise it out if anyone ever thinks it's a good idea again...hardly!

With good marketing...it could be a winner.

I'm going to read all your old posts now Will, it is a Bank Holiday like.

That made me laugh. Make a collection of all the best ones for me.

Actually categorise them for me...the helpful, the humorous, the argumentative etc etc.

Hope the weather is better where you are!

It is beautiful here in sunny Melbourne...doing paper work...messing around on boards...taking meetings outside in the sunshine...it's all good.

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

That's a brilliant post Will, should be food for thought in there for most people, cheers.

A brilliant post? You mean compared to my usual ones?

Well if it was food for thought for you then that is good enough for me. Thanks for the positive praise...better than what I usually get here

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

I just think a well reasoned 'think about whether this is worth it' post is very worthwhile on page one of a 'program critique' thread.

I have to always try and remember what I said and where I said it...was it here...was it elsewhere...was it to someone or was it to a meeting. I am glad you are keeping on top of everything.

I can only speak for myself of course,

That's the best way to do it.

but coming on four months of training 4 times a week and adjusting diet I'm seeing results.

Brilliant.

But I'm also seeing problems.

Not so brilliant.

Is my new awesome (for me ) 1 rep max deadlift or 500m row time worth the tendinosis in my knees or feeling beat to **** when sitting in the office most days?

Definitely not. You should absolutely talk to the lads and ladettes at your gym because I am sure that they'll want to keep you in the best shape possible. I am sure they'll be able to tune your training program appropriately.

I don't know whether I said it here or in another thread or whether I didn't say it at all but in short...when you are first starting out training...and by just starting out I mean the first couple of years of consistent training....all your physical capacities are not going to improve at exactly the same rate...and you AND your coaches need to be aware of that...to use your example...your aerobic capacity will improve faster than your muscular capacity and both of those will improve much faster than your connective tissues capacity to put the improvement in both of these into practice. So just because you CAN go harder doesn't mean you should...just because you CAN deadlift more one session to another doesn't mean you should...just because you can row further in your 500m time trial doesn't mean you should. Do you follow...there is nothing wrong with increasing your loading monthly rather than weekly.

And even if it was, the 1 rep max deadlift isn't why I started doing this in the first place. The objective was 'get healthier' after all. So thanks for that. We probably shouldn't need someone to tell us this stuff - but your recent posts have put it together very well for me anyway.

Good. I'd rather see you fit for living rather than being the most ripped guy in the ER.