Abortion

WindSock · 31-07-2008 4:31pm

WindSock wrote: »

Ntlbell has agreed to not use any more harsh words, if you have a problem with any posts please report them and don't take the thread off topic. Thanks.

Quality wrote: »

Another valid opinion that is going to end up with another thread that he posts in being Locked...

You obviously havent seen him in action..

Yellow card given, any more off topic posts regarding ntl bell or any other poster then I will open the pack of red cards or start banning.

cornbb · 31-07-2008 4:32pm

ntlbell wrote: »

As all ready stated

condom and pill combination is practically bullet proof

there's also the choice of not having penatrive sex if terminating a life is something you may have to do in current circumstances

Nevertheless, precautions can still either fail or people can neglect to use them, and we are still faced with the predicament of unwanted pregnancies. Therefore the abortion question still doesn't go away.

I don't think its something that humankind will ever agree upon.

metaoblivia · 31-07-2008 4:32pm

Rabies wrote: »

Just to add to the topic.

Would anyone consider termination if they found out the unborn child was mentally/physically disabled?

I won't lie, I would if there was a mental disability. I don't work well with people or children who have mental disabilities. I get frustrated, overwhelmed and very sad all at once when working with the mentally disabled. But depending on the extent of the disability, I would also consider giving the child up for adoption. Some people have a very big heart for that.

sweet-rasmus · 31-07-2008 4:33pm

A woman should be allowed to make her own choice.

As said, if a person chooses to have an abortion overseas, the travel and expenses are not an easy chore and you shouldn't have to go through it along with the emotional struggle; it should be available here in Ireland, as well good support. The pill and morning after pill should also be made more easily available because an awful lot of people would be put off by the 50 euro visit to the doctor; it is a preventative measure which should be available to all.

I have not have an abortion myself, but know a friend who has. She had been using the pill and condom as precautions. It happens.

Quality · 31-07-2008 4:34pm

Also to add to the bag...

If you have a daughter and she gets pregnant at 13/14/15 any young age I suppose, would you want her to have the baby or would you consider Abortion for her???

Rabies · 31-07-2008 4:34pm

WindSock wrote: »

Yellow card given, any more off topic posts regarding ntl bell or any other poster then I will open the pack of red cards or start banning.

Oh... Sorry if my posts were going off topic. Missed your post.

trio · 31-07-2008 4:34pm

I agree that condom and pill is practically bulletproof. That's the method I always used when I was single and crazy. Worked for me!

However, that's because my No. 1 priority back then was "not getting pregnant".

But of course not many people double up like that. And then things do go wrong - my pal used a condom, which split - then got the morning after pill, which didn't work. So whilst there is a virtually bulletproof method out there, that doesn't mean that people are educated about it, or that they use it.

In fact, any time I've said that I use both, both men and women looked at me like I was mad!

The fact is that until you have every woman in the country routinely using both, unwanted pregnancies will occur. And people will have abortions.

31-07-2008 4:35pm

cuckoo wrote: »

I wonder how many people have discussed the 'what if...?' question with their sexual partners. I always do, and get a variety of responses, but a common theme is 'um, never really thought about that...' and 'you're the first to raise this issue with me, hmmm'.

I always have, and in the past I have been live and let with their personal opinion. Which frankly was easy because at the end of the day society gives me the say.
But at this stage in my life if I don't think I would consider a serious relatonship with someone who see's abortion as a choice at all.

cornbb · 31-07-2008 4:36pm

Rabies wrote: »

Just to add to the topic.

Would anyone consider termination if they found out the unborn child was mentally/physically disabled?

I don't think it should be a deciding factor, unless it was certain that the disability would lead to a lifetime of suffering. There are plenty of cases of (e.g.) Down's Syndrome where both parents and child lead loving and happy lives.

But then again this raises the question of what criteria should be allowable when deciding whether to have an abortion. Again, this must be up to the individuals involved.

Another tough question, for the ladies: how important would the opinions of the father of the child be to you if you were considering an abortion?

ntlbell · 31-07-2008 4:37pm

cornbb wrote: »

I don't think its something that humankind will ever agree upon.

Your right.

But the backline services and the sex education etc and also parents could vastly reduce the amount we're currently seeing

which would be a nice step forward

~Thalia~ · 31-07-2008 4:37pm

I would never have an abortion. As I know I am the type of person that would regret it as long as I live and also I am in a position where I could care for a child were I to fall pregnant. However because this is my opinion I don't really feel it should be everyones. It's each person's decision.

Although I have to say I do have an issue where abortion is used almost as a contraceptive and women have had abortion after abortion.

Nevyn · 31-07-2008 4:38pm

Really, cos when my son was conceived both condoms and the oral contraceptive pill were being correctly used.

trio wrote: »

I agree that condom and pill is practically bulletproof. That's the method I always used when I was single and crazy. Worked for me!

However, that's because my No. 1 priority back then was "not getting pregnant".

But of course not many people double up like that. And then things do go wrong - my pal used a condom, which split - then got the morning after pill, which didn't work. So whilst there is a virtually bulletproof method out there, that doesn't mean that people are educated about it, or that they use it.

In fact, any time I've said that I use both, both men and women looked at me like I was mad!

The fact is that until you have every woman in the country routinely using both, unwanted pregnancies will occur. And people will have abortions.

cornbb · 31-07-2008 4:38pm

ntlbell wrote: »

Your right.

But the backline services and the sex education etc and also parents could vastly reduce the amount we're currently seeing

which would be a nice step forward

Agreed. I don't think anyone would argue with that.

Rabies · 31-07-2008 4:38pm

sweet-rasmus wrote: »

As said, if a person chooses to have an abortion overseas, the travel and expenses are not an easy chore and you shouldn't have to go through it along with the emotional struggle; it should be available here in Ireland. The pill and morning after pill should also be made more easily available because an awful lot of people would be put off by the 50 euro visit to the doctor; it is a preventative measure which should be available to all.

Over here sexual health careis free to all under the age of 21 (i think). This includes abortions, but also condoms, the pill, morning after pill and STI health checks.
Private clinics charge about $1000 for an abortion, not sure about publicly for those over the age limit.

ntlbell · 31-07-2008 4:41pm

Quality wrote: »

Also to add to the bag...

If you have a daughter and she gets pregnant at 13/14/15 any young age I suppose, would you want her to have the baby or would you consider Abortion for her???

My daughter is coming up to this age and as much as it would tear my heart out if she fell pregnant at that age as long as her life was not at risk I would want her to have the child.

John Mason · 31-07-2008 4:41pm

ntlbell wrote: »

Of course it does but it's pain usually the person can get over and live a healthy lifestyle.

but that the same with abortion

anywoo, if found myself in the family way, i would be off to england in the blink of eye, i wouldnt even think twice about it

but thats my decision, and no one has the right to tell me i am wrong

LolaDub · 31-07-2008 4:43pm

Thaedydal wrote: »

We don't have open adoption in this country.
Once a child is given up for adoption you don't get to hear or see them again until they come looking for you at the age of 18.

Adoption doesn't happen right away the infant is placed into foster care in the mean time while an adoption is arranged and we have such a sever shortage of foster places that the extended family of the mother often get asked to foster the child. Often the family of the mother will shame the mother into keeping the child or insist on fostering the child against her wishes and currently the system here promotes keeping the 'family' together.

Hey Thaed

We do have open adoption in Ireland, you can make an agreement to see the baby up to three times a year, receive news and letters from them etc. Unfortunately this is a private agreement and not a legally standing contract so the adoptive parents can go back on it and its very difficult for the birth mother to exercise her rights here.The adoptive system first goes to the birth mothers family about the adoption as they see being with the birth family as being best for the child and want to give the father/grandparents a choice in losing a child that is something to them also.

When people talk about the trauma of carrying a baby for 9 months when you don't want it, they seem to forget the trauma of going through an operation to remove the baby and the trauma they will live with for the rest of their life. I personally have never heard of someone having an abortion and never experiencing negative feelings about it afterwards. Although those 9 months of your life will be hard the joy of giving a couple a child they so desperately desire and knowing the child has their life would be something? I would imagine the long term effects of abortion vs adoption would put adoption as a stronger choice.

I think a lot of people, not all, have abortions to escape the shame attached to being a single mother. Like it or not there is still an attitude of disgrace and shame towards single mothers and they tend to get grouped into the you just had a baby for child benefit stigma which is not comfortable for anybody doing such a difficult job alone. In this day and age there should be much better support and better attitudes to people raring children.

Personally i am pro life, i do believe that abortion is a word we're not to use but i believe that the girl in question is going through huge emotional turmoil making those choices and desires support no matter what. I don't believe its right for anyone to judge someone in that kind of situation and my heart goes out to them.

If we had better support for both sides of this and less stigma for both choices women would be able to make a much much more informed decision and not be driven into decisions by fear.

Nevyn · 31-07-2008 4:43pm

cornbb wrote: »

Agreed. I don't think anyone would argue with that.

The crises pregnancy agency as look into that as it falls under their remit but the sex education program they developed and support is not allowed to be distributed in the majority of Irish schools due to the religious patronage system.

http://www.crisispregnancy.ie/parentresource.html

Research findings from the Irish Study of Sexual Health and Relationships (ISSHR) show that 92% of people think that young people should get sex education on sexual intercourse, sexual feelings, contraception, safer sex/STIs and homosexuality. 80% thought that it should be provided in the home. However, only 21% of men and 38% of women under 25 have received sex education in the home. Among under-25s, nearly two-thirds of men and almost half of women did not find it easy to talk to their parents about sex.

In the DVD, parents and teenagers are interviewed about talking to each other about sex and relationships. Dr Marie Murray and Dr Tony Bates give their tips to parents on starting a conversation about sex and relationships with their child.

To obtain a free DVD and booklet, freetext PARENT followed by your name and address to 50123.

ntlbell · 31-07-2008 4:46pm

irishbird wrote: »

but that the same with abortion

anywoo, if found myself in the family way, i would be off to england in the blink of eye, i wouldnt even think twice about it

but thats my decision, and no one has the right to tell me i am wrong

have you missed the two replies on this?

it doesn't happen with abortion because the unborn is terminated so doesn't go on to live a happy healthy life it's terminated?

31-07-2008 4:50pm

Nobody has the right to judge people, or dictate a course of action so long as they are not intentionally causeing harm to others.
That isn't the case with abortion as far as I am concerned.

LolaDub · 31-07-2008 4:51pm

Moonbaby wrote: »

Nobody has the right to judge people, or dictate a course of action so long as they are not intentionally causeing harm to others.
That isn't the case with abortion as far as I am concerned.

Therein lies the issue, pro life believe it is causing harm to life, generally pro choice don't.

hunnymonster · 31-07-2008 4:52pm

My 2c. Ireland doesn't do sex very well;) We don't teach our kids enough, we have an Irish-solution-to-an-Irish-problem when things go wrong. I think we need to take responsibility for educating young people and giving a safe environment with choices to women/couples making some very difficult decisions and then facilitate them through whatever path they choose.

I also agree the docs are the best placed to make a decision on when a foetus becomes viable but obviously we live in a high tech era where the boundaries can move and the limits would need to be reviewed often and err on the side of caution.

Thaedydal wrote: »

For most of the history of the christian/catholic church abortion up to certain stages were considered permissible it was only in 1886 that pope Leo XIII
issued a decree stating that prohibited all procedures that directly killed the fetus, even if done to save the woman's life.
The tolerant approach to abortion which had prevailed in the Roman Catholic Church for previous centuries ended.
The church required excommunication for abortions at any stage of pregnancy. This position has continued to the present time.

Sorry to go slightly OT, Thaed, I didn't know this (and I thought I was reasonably well informed in this debate. Could you point me to somewhere I could read more.

Nevyn · 31-07-2008 4:55pm

LolaDub that is not legal open adoption that is a private arrangement and not the norm tbh.

hunnymonster wrote: »

Sorry to go slightly OT, Thaed, I didn't know this (and I thought I was reasonably well informed in this debate. Could you point me to somewhere I could read more.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/abo_hist_c.htm
http://www.religioustolerance.org/abo_hist.htm

Lists the decress, papl bulls and published 'thinkings' on the topics of the church.

Nevyn · 31-07-2008 4:57pm

LolaDub wrote: »

Therein lies the issue, pro life believe it is causing harm to life, generally pro choice don't.

Actually your wrong there.

There are many people who are pro choice who do think it ends a life or a potential life and would never personally have an abortion on those grounds but are compassionate and understand that others do not agree and respect their right to choose for themselves and the number of those who are that way are growing.

LolaDub · 31-07-2008 4:59pm

Thaedydal wrote: »

LolaDub that is not legal open adoption that is a private arrangement and not the norm tbh.

There is no private adoption in ireland anymore, i said it wasn't a legal contract but a private agreement that the adoption services facilitate. There are very very few irish babies going up for adoption. My understanding is the majority of these small few are open adoptions but the majority of foreign adoptions are closed adoptions.

Malari · 31-07-2008 5:00pm

irishbird wrote: »

anywoo, if found myself in the family way, i would be off to england in the blink of eye, i wouldnt even think twice about it

but thats my decision, and no one has the right to tell me i am wrong

I feel the same way. My decision-making wouldn't start when I found out I was pregnant, it has already been made. I'm sure it would be a fairly traumatic occasion anyway, but there's no way I'd have a baby.

Quality · 31-07-2008 5:01pm

There was a very interesting program on Channel 4 a couple of months ago about Abortion..

It was about 5 women who had gone through abortions and there emotions.

It explained the whole procedure. There are two different ways it can be performed depending on how far along you are.. But I wont go into detail on it.

One of the girls had had several abortions (form of contraception for her)

One of the girls was very young 18 had an abortion at 23 weeks.

It was very sad to watch.

Anyone else see it?

Mr. Incognito · 31-07-2008 5:04pm

My daughter is coming up to this age and as much as it would tear my heart out if she fell pregnant at that age as long as her life was not at risk I would want her to have the child.

What about what SHE wants?

That's the point here- you're applying YOUR opinions onto other people. Let them make up their own minds and you make up yours.

Malari · 31-07-2008 5:05pm

Quality wrote: »

There was a very interesting program on Channel 4 a couple of months ago about Abortion..

It was about 5 women who had gone through abortions and there emotions.

It explained the whole procedure. There are two different ways it can be performed depending on how far along you are.. But I wont go into detail on it.

One of the girls had had several abortions (form of contraception for her)

One of the girls was very young 18 had an abortion at 23 weeks.

It was very sad to watch.

Anyone else see it?

Yes, it was good, very informative. Abortion is not a blanket choice for people, they come to that decision via various paths. It's something that needs to be talked about more openly here.

LolaDub · 31-07-2008 5:05pm

Thaedydal wrote: »

Actually your wrong there.

There are people who are pro choice who do think it ends a life or a potential life and would never personally have an abortion on those grounds but are compassionate and understand that others do not agree and respect their right to choose for themselves.

Sorry Thaed you might not agree with it but its different to me being wrong. I said generally i wasn't saying everyone does this for these reasons. My meaning was generally when pro choice are considering an abortion they do not judge the foetus as a baby therefore they probably don't feel they are hurting a baby. I think a main difference in the debate is how people judge when life begins, ie at point of conception or at 12 weeks, 28 weeks, birth etc

Abortion

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