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Abortion

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    #32
    ntlbell
    Registered Users Posts: 16,288 ✭✭✭✭ntlbell


    Aisling(",) wrote: »
    ive had a misscarrige a while back when i was unknowingly pregnant at the time i was upset but i know im better of not having a child at this age so i would see a termination as the best choice for me at the moment.

    Sorry for your loss.

    but not putting yourself into a position where you would have to terminate the pregnancy would be the best choice for everyone.

    that's the issue mostly it's not "you" anymore when it;s you and the unborn


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    #33
    enda1
    Registered Users Posts: 5,166 ✭✭✭enda1


    cornbb wrote: »
    I agree completely, except I don't think the medical profession or science are qualified to make such an important distinction, its an essentially philosophical question. In that absence, people must be able to decide for themselves. However, using that logic, the "pro-choice" group must recognise and acknowledge that the "pro-life" group have a right to disagree with and be uncomfortable with their choice.


    Well someone has to set a date and I know a doctor is more qualified than me so I hand over the responsibility with pleasure :)


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    #34
    metaoblivia
    Registered Users Posts: 2,256 ✭✭✭metaoblivia


    I live in a country where abortions are legal and fairly easy to obtain if you're over 18. Both of my brother's ex wives have had abortions and my mother had an abortion years before she had my brother and me. I don't know much about the ex wives' abortions, except that the first ex wife was 15 when she had the abortion and her parents had to approve it. She was pregnant again 3 months later and kept the child (my niece). The second ex wife had cheated on my brother (he had got the snip by that time), ended up pregnant and had an abortion in an attempt to hide the cheating from my brother.

    My mother had her abortion only months after the Roe vs. Wade decision. She was 20 years old and a senior at university. I know she still feels some guilt about it. It wasn't an easy decision for her, but she felt it was best at the time. She told me that, had she known then what she knows now about raising children, she wouldn't have done it. But, she also said that had she kept the child, she probably would have lived a completely different life, and my brother and I would never have been born. I'm the only one she's ever spoken openly about it with. She's never even told her parents.

    My father, on the other hand, was an "unwanted" pregnancy back when abortions were illegal, and he was given up for adoption and placed in an Irish-Catholic orphanage. He was adopted when he was 6 months old. Obviously, had he been aborted, I wouldn't be here either. It sounds like an ideal situation, but my father's adoptive parents were very abusive to him, emotionally, physically and sexually. His mother in particular did some horrible things. She was a very disturbed woman. Being aborted would have been worse, obviously, but adoption doesn't always work as well as some people like to think. My father has never tried to find his birth parents. He was told that they gave him up because they neither loved nor wanted him, and I think he partially believes that, and I think he's also sees it as a betrayal of his parents.

    I'm pro-choice, personally. I believe that a woman has a right to choose within the first trimester. Had I gotten pregnant when I was younger - late teens/early 20's, I would have had an abortion. Now that I'm in my late 20s though, I think I would keep an unplanned pregnancy.


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    #35
    kazzer
    Registered Users Posts: 865 ✭✭✭kazzer


    Theres no doubt that abortions can be justified in certain cases. What bugs me though is the view that abortion is somehow a right by default. Its not.


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    #36
    litup
    Registered Users Posts: 361 ✭✭litup


    SetantaL wrote: »
    I'm pro-choice. If you think abortion is wrong- you don't have to partake of it. This is one of the few areas that people think it's okay to force thier opinions onto everyone else. Legalise it and let people make up their own minds, and for the record I feel the same about legalising drugs, euthenasia, gay marraige etc.

    A lot of these things are personl choices and I think people should be given the right to choice. If you don't like that choice, well that's well and good. You make your own choices in life.

    +1

    Unfortunately our government seems to be moving more towards nanny state principles rather than allowing people to exercise personal choice and demonstrate personal responsibility.

    Where would we be without them to protect us from ourselves?


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    #37
    cuckoo
    Registered Users Posts: 1,945 ✭✭✭cuckoo


    Thaedydal wrote: »
    Yes ideally we should have better supports so that placing a child up for adoption is an real option but in ireland post the laundries and so many children taken away from thier unmarried mothers it's something that we are loath to do.

    Agreed - there should be more discussion about adoption, and more options available as well regarding future contact and updates. I know were i to have found myself pregnant when younger i would have considered adoption, but would have found it very difficult to never know what happened to my child. There should be more openess, birth parents getting maybe annual updates, etc. Maybe even some form of contact could be arranged.

    I wonder how many people have discussed the 'what if...?' question with their sexual partners. I always do, and get a variety of responses, but a common theme is 'um, never really thought about that...' and 'you're the first to raise this issue with me, hmmm'.


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    #38
    Aisling(",)
    Registered Users Posts: 6,383 ✭✭✭Aisling(",)


    untill it starts developing features etc i dont see it as a child.i would be comfortable with the idea of a termination but im aware that this will not be the case for everyone hence i beleive everyone has the right to their own choice.

    and even if i was in my 20's id probably take the same choice.having children is not part of my plan.im aware many people who have unplanned pregnancys see it as the best thing when the child is older but i doubt that would happen with me.


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    #39
    WindSock
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,239 ✭✭✭✭WindSock


    kazzer wrote: »
    So because you have the ability to do something, justifies doing it or makes you superior does it? Your logic is quite bizarre.

    I am just saying in the end only one person can decide what is going to happen, call it selfishness if you will but it is no one elses business if a woman wishes not to go through with a pregnancy.


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    #40
    cornbb
    Registered Users Posts: 6,790 ✭✭✭cornbb


    enda1 wrote: »
    Well someone has to set a date and I know a doctor is more qualified than me so I hand over the responsibility with pleasure :)

    Thats the nub of the problem though, isn't it? I (like many people) would have no problem with, say, the MAP pill but would be disturbed at the thought of a termination in the 39th week. Where does the line get drawn? If we could answer that, there would be no abortion debate.


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    #41
    Nevyn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 43,045 ✭✭✭✭Nevyn


    cornbb wrote: »
    I agree completely, except I don't think the medical profession or science are qualified to make such an important distinction, its an essentially philosophical question. In that absence, people must be able to decide for themselves. However, using that logic, the "pro-choice" group must recognise and acknowledge that the "pro-life" group have a right to disagree with and be uncomfortable with their choice.

    We can't due to the facts of reproduction keep taking the cake tin out of the oven and put it back in to see at which stage it goes from being cake mix to a cake.

    Yes people will disagree with the moral stance ( religous or non religous ) on if an abortion at all or at any stage is permissible but they don't' have to be ássholes to those who disagree with them about it or add to a person's worrys who has unfortunately had an abortion.

    For most of the history of the christian/catholic church abortion up to certain stages were considered permissible it was only in 1886 that pope Leo XIII
    issued a decree stating that prohibited all procedures that directly killed the fetus, even if done to save the woman's life.
    The tolerant approach to abortion which had prevailed in the Roman Catholic Church for previous centuries ended.
    The church required excommunication for abortions at any stage of pregnancy. This position has continued to the present time.


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    #42
    ntlbell
    Registered Users Posts: 16,288 ✭✭✭✭ntlbell


    Aisling(",) wrote: »
    untill it starts developing features etc i dont see it as a child.i would be comfortable with the idea of a termination but im aware that this will not be the case for everyone hence i beleive everyone has the right to their own choice.



    It's a bit like me saying well i want to be able to terminate my kids up until they can talk properly as I don't see them as kids.

    People say things like this usually so they can feel better about a termination in themselves as they haven't terminated a living being

    I nor you don't get to put our own time line when it's a living being or not


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    #43
    is_that_so
    Registered Users Posts: 32,136 ✭✭✭✭is_that_so


    ntlbell wrote: »
    There's always adoption.

    Yes there is and it's also a path that causes its own pain. Personally pro-choice and having talked to a number of people pre and post I have learnt that I am in no position to make any judgements on them. In an ideal world it wouldn't be necessary but circumstances and the complications of life can leave individuals with difficult decisions that are not best answered by dogma.


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    #44
    Quality
    Registered Users Posts: 6,900 ✭✭✭Quality


    NTL Bell is a troll so the best thing you girls can do is put him on ignore and dont feed him.:)




    Anyhow back to business.




    For me I would never personally be able to go through with an abortion. I have a friend who has had two. I think that it is a very difficult decision to make.... When she told me, I was gutted for her.. I know her life would be very different now if she had of had those babies.. It is not for me to say what is right or wrong for her.. She made her decision and it is her who has to live with it... I will be there as always as a friend to listen and support her.. Just because I dont agree with abortion for myself does not mean that I can dictate to anyone else.


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    #45
    Rabies
    Registered Users Posts: 15,258 ✭✭✭✭Rabies


    If a woman doesn't want to be pregnant. Then she shouldn't be forced to carry the child for nine months and then put it up for adoption. If the mind is set on termination, then its best done in my opinion(if both people agree).
    Handing over a child for adoption would be tougher than termination at an early stage, thats my personal view.


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    #46
    trio
    Closed Accounts Posts: 494 ✭✭trio


    metablivia, I'm sorry your Dad had crappy adoptive parents, but obviously that's not everyone's experience.

    Personally? I would continue with the pregnancy and give it up for adoption.

    A number of reasons. One being that a friend of mine had an abortion and it damn near destroyed her. The reason she had the abortion is because she didn't want to disrupt her college education. She ended up dropping out of college anyway because of her distress. So I've seen how rough it can be emotionally - it's by no means the easier option.

    Obviously it's not like that for everyone - but I'd say it'd be like that for me.

    Another reason is that I'm very uncomfortable with the early ages that they're discovering stimulus responses in foeteses. Even a few years ago they didn't have the technology to investigate as much as they can now, in terms of foetal sensory development. The only way I could have an abortion would be if I persuaded myself it was just a bunch of tissue, and at this stage that would be a bit of a question mark for me.

    The third reason is that Irish couples find it extraordinarily difficult to adopt from within Ireland - and adopting from abroad is incredibly time-consuming and stressful and costs tens of thousands. I know couples who are out of their minds wanting a baby, and none to be had. So I'd feel like something good was coming out of an upsetting situation.

    But the most important thing is that even though I know what my choice would be, I would never judge another person. When my friend had hers, I even offered to accompany her to England - that's what friends do, in my view.


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    #47
    ntlbell
    Registered Users Posts: 16,288 ✭✭✭✭ntlbell


    is_that_so wrote: »
    Yes there is and it's also a path that causes its own pain

    Of course it does but it's pain usually the person can get over and live a healthy lifestyle.


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    #48
    Nevyn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 43,045 ✭✭✭✭Nevyn


    cuckoo wrote: »
    Agreed - there should be more discussion about adoption, and more options available as well regarding future contact and updates. I know were i to have found myself pregnant when younger i would have considered adoption, but would have found it very difficult to never know what happened to my child. There should be more openess, birth parents getting maybe annual updates, etc. Maybe even some form of contact could be arranged.

    We don't have open adoption in this country.
    Once a child is given up for adoption you don't get to hear or see them again until they come looking for you at the age of 18.

    Adoption doesn't happen right away the infant is placed into foster care in the mean time while an adoption is arranged and we have such a sever shortage of foster places that the extended family of the mother often get asked to foster the child. Often the family of the mother will shame the mother into keeping the child or insist on fostering the child against her wishes and currently the system here promotes keeping the 'family' together.


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    #49
    ntlbell
    Registered Users Posts: 16,288 ✭✭✭✭ntlbell


    Rabies wrote: »
    If a woman doesn't want to be pregnant.

    What about all the other options before she gets pregnant?


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    #50
    WindSock
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,239 ✭✭✭✭WindSock


    Ntlbell has agreed to not use any more harsh words, if you have a problem with any posts please report them and don't take the thread off topic. Thanks.


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    #51
    Aisling(",)
    Registered Users Posts: 6,383 ✭✭✭Aisling(",)


    ntlbell wrote: »
    It's a bit like me saying well i want to be able to terminate my kids up until they can talk properly as I don't see them as kids.

    People say things like this usually so they can feel better about a termination in themselves as they haven't terminated a living being

    I nor you don't get to put our own time line when it's a living being or not

    as you say your self there i no definitive time when cells become a child but i know at the begining or pregnancy i would be ok with it.at the end where on an ultrasound i could see the foetus i dont know if i could go true with it.


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    #52
    Aisling(",)
    Registered Users Posts: 6,383 ✭✭✭Aisling(",)


    ntlbell wrote: »
    Of course it does but it's pain usually the person can get over and live a healthy lifestyle.

    with a lot of people this would be the same with abortion.


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    #53
    enda1
    Registered Users Posts: 5,166 ✭✭✭enda1


    Quality wrote: »
    NTL Bell is a troll so the best thing you girls can do is put him on ignore and dont feed him.:)




    Anyhow back to business.




    For me I would never personally be able to go through with an abortion. I have a friend who has had two. I think that it is a very difficult decision to make.... When she told me, I was gutted for her.. I know her life would be very different now if she had of had those babies.. It is not for me to say what is right or wrong for her.. She made her decision and it is her who has to live with it... I will be there as always as a friend to listen and support her.. Just because I dont agree with abortion for myself does not mean that I can dictate to anyone else.

    I disagree, he/she (NTL) has a valid opinion and one shared by a lot of people, the same people who may need convincing if you ever want a referendum to be passed on this issue.

    Some people see the life starting at conception so obviously feel strongly about the topic of abortion. Not all strong opinions are "being a troll".

    Of couse I desagree with perhaps the venom of opinion but its an emotive subject so understand.

    Mental developement can be the only factor used to determine when a human exists, its the one factor that distinguishes us from every other animal.


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    #54
    ntlbell
    Registered Users Posts: 16,288 ✭✭✭✭ntlbell


    Aisling(",) wrote: »
    with a lot of people this would be the same with abortion.

    with abortion the child doesn't get to live it's life tho?


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    #55
    Nevyn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 43,045 ✭✭✭✭Nevyn


    ntlbell wrote: »
    Of course it does but it's pain usually the person can get over and live a healthy lifestyle.

    Plenty of women have abortions and go on and live a healthy and happy lifestyle and go on to have children or already have a family and don't wish to add to it.

    Yes all women who have an abortion no matter how right the choice is for them
    will still grieve what was the child they didn't have.


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    #56
    Quality
    Registered Users Posts: 6,900 ✭✭✭Quality


    <SNIP>

    Quality, you've been told once already to use the report post function. At the moment your off-topicness is more irritating than NTL's fervent pro-life opinions.

    Majd.


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    #57
    ntlbell
    Registered Users Posts: 16,288 ✭✭✭✭ntlbell


    Thaedydal wrote: »
    Plenty of women have abortions and go on and live a healthy and happy lifestyle and go on to have children or already have a family and don't wish to add to it.

    Yes all women who have an abortion no matter how right the choice is for them
    will still grieve what was the child they didn't have.

    The terminated child doesn't get to live happy lifestyle it's life was terminated


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    #58
    Rabies
    Registered Users Posts: 15,258 ✭✭✭✭Rabies


    ntlbell wrote: »
    What about all the other options before she gets pregnant?
    Methods of contraception can/do fail and more often than not are not used and the result is pregnancy.

    *Off topic comment*
    Since when did it be called Pro Life Vs Pro Choice?
    The wording of things is getting softer as the years go by :confused:


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    #59
    Aisling(",)
    Registered Users Posts: 6,383 ✭✭✭Aisling(",)


    ntlbell wrote: »
    with abortion the child doesn't get to live it's life tho?

    i can see your points and see them as valid but i judt think in the end the decission should fall to the mother and father.if they want to keep the child then they should if not adoption and temination are both options.
    ive voiced my opinion and dont wish to be sucked into a long and ardous debate over when is afoetus a child and when does life begin so im done.


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    #60
    ntlbell
    Registered Users Posts: 16,288 ✭✭✭✭ntlbell


    Rabies wrote: »
    Methods of contraception can/do fail and more often than not are not used and the result is pregnancy.

    *Off topic comment*
    Since when did it be called Pro Life Vs Pro Choice?
    The wording of things is getting softer as the years go by :confused:

    As all ready stated

    condom and pill combination is practically bullet proof

    there's also the choice of not having penatrive sex if terminating a life is something you may have to do in current circumstances


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    #61
    Rabies
    Registered Users Posts: 15,258 ✭✭✭✭Rabies


    Just to add to the topic.

    Would anyone consider termination if they found out the unborn child was mentally/physically disabled?


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