Stay and do something or get the hell away?!

pog it · 05-06-2011 5:02pm #1

Joe Steve Ó Neachtain is a native Irish speaker, writer and actor from Conamara, has played the part of Peadar in Ros na Rún, has written many novels in Irish and has more than done his bit for the language and the country in general.

It was also a conscious decision on his part. I watched a documentary about him a couple of years ago and in it he said that he considered leaving the country at one point when he was young but was persuaded to stay having been advised that it's better to stay and contribute something to your country if you can rather than to emigrate.

Well I've lived my life so far on this idea as well and would like to think I've made a lot of positive contributions. I'm still young and I undoubtedly could do more. I also have a decent job, albeit part-time. But faced with the apathy in the country and the likelihood of several more years of this country being in recession and with a good chance of default happening when it's too late, well I'm starting to think it's best to get out of here. I am starting to hate this country more and more and fed up listening to the crap from the government, worse again the behaviour and apathy of the Irish people. It's taking all the good out of things for me. I'm a positive person normally, put a lot into life and have gotten lots back but what is happening here is wrong and not enough of us care enough.

It's time to get out of here before I completely hate this country isn't it?

Prakari · 05-06-2011 6:48pm

Until the social unrest begins, Ireland will remain a very boring and depressing place, especially for young people. Young adulthood will disappear as the 20 somethings stay in college getting pointless degrees, live with their parents on social welfare, or engage in free labour to get experience for jobs that don’t exist. Nonetheless, the anger and technical competence of group is the last resource left to prevent the debt enslavement of this society.

RichardAnd · 05-06-2011 9:27pm

I'm 24 so I'm just at the end of the "young person" spectrum that so often gets a mention in the media. I do have a job, one that's as secure as any can be right now and I am eternally grateful for it. However, I recently spent an evening with my girlfriend and her soon to be graduates friends of which not one (in a group of six) had a job on the horizon.

Did that surprise me? Not in the least. It did however, remind me of my first few weeks as a bitter and disillusioned graduate. Being quite upset by my inability to find paid work, I booked an appointment with our college career advisor. After expressing my concerns to her, she informed me of a company that was very eager to hire some IT graduates which naturally, piqued my interest. Sadly, I was quick to learn that this company was offering nothing more than "exciting opportunities" salary free.

When told her that the point of working is to be paid, she looked at me like I had just told her I expected to be offered a job as the CEO of Microsoft. I didn't stay for the end of the session.

Now this might have just been one very out of touch employee of the college but her attitude to unpaid work was something I would see and continue to see from many older people towards the young. There seems to be a belief that unpaid work is ok, even a good thing for young people to be doing when in reality it is a sickening and soul-destroying experience that is more depressing than being unemployed. Those that express this view are often dismissed as lazy, belonging to the "Celtic Club" or as that pr**k Bill Cullen put it "mollycoddled".

I have said this before and I will say it again, right now in fact; do not ever let someone convince you that working for free is ok. No matter the economic situation, a day's work should come with some form of payment.

Permabear · 05-06-2011 11:23pm

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The_Thing · 06-06-2011 12:19am

RichardAnd wrote: »

There seems to be a belief that unpaid work is ok, even a good thing for young people to be doing when in reality it is a sickening and soul-destroying experience that is more depressing than being unemployed.

What else did you expect from the IBEC race-to-the-bottom gangsters?

saa · 06-06-2011 12:29am

If someone can secure a visa, a good job and the funds to do the move why not? Sad thing is when the point comes where I am forced to move so I can have work I will not have a penny to do so as I just get by I can barely pay bills so Ive never been able to save, I'm 20 and have a degree that isnt valid without 5-8 years of work experience so to say and I could only probably make a living when im 35 if I get employed as a college tutor... if..

FlashD · 06-06-2011 3:01am

You should definately leave OP.

It's Joe Steve Ó Neachtain's loss that he didn't leave the country. How can you learn anything about the world stuck back in Connemara all your life? He got some bad advice.

Whether the economy is good or bad; living, working and travelling in another country is an education in itself. It's not about the contribution to your home country, it's about your own personal development. Contributing to your country can come at a later stage in life.

Regards.

JustinDee · 06-06-2011 7:45am

saa wrote: »

I'm 20 and have a degree that isnt valid without 5-8 years of work experience so to say and I could only probably make a living when im 35 if I get employed as a college tutor... if..

What you mean your degree isn't "valid"? Of course it is. However, a degree doesn't guarantee you stroll into the upper echelons of your chosen field the second you receive it. Fifteen years experience/internship on a degree that I'm guessing is a three year course (you're only 20) ???

JustinDee · 06-06-2011 7:51am

saa wrote: »

I'm 20 and have a degree that isnt valid without 5-8 years of work experience so to say and I could only probably make a living when im 35 if I get employed as a college tutor... if..

What you mean your degree isn't "valid"? Of course it is. However, a degree doesn't guarantee you stroll into the upper echelons of your chosen field the second you receive it. Fifteen years experience/internship on a degree that I'm guessing is a three year course (you're only 20) ???

professore · 06-06-2011 8:26am

RichardAnd wrote: »

I have said this before and I will say it again, right now in fact; do not ever let someone convince you that working for free is ok. No matter the economic situation, a day's work should come with some form of payment.

With two exceptions ... volunteer charity work or work experience as part of a college course.

professore · 06-06-2011 8:32am

Permabear wrote: »

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I agree on your choice Permabear, but I would say this:

This is all well and good if Mammy has put you through college and can subsidise you to do paid work experience, but if you live in the real world where you need to pay bills yourself, I would pick the third person who took a job unrelated to their qualifications, emigrated or figured out some way to actually make some money themselves over either of the two above.

Any company who offers unpaid work experience for actual work that needs to be done are by definition the scum of the earth IMHO, in the same category as users of child and slave labour, and I'm an employer myself. It should be illegal. With two exceptions ... volunteer charity work or work experience as part of a college course.

population · 06-06-2011 9:23am

Permabear wrote: »

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Only people with significant cash reserves could afford to work for a year with no pay. That is not the majority of people in Ireland. I am a former employer who at the height of the boom employed a modest staff of 4 people. I would start any new employees on a trial basis and reduced rate for the first 2 weeks so I could see up close if they were good workers and not just good interviewees. After the 2 weeks I knew if they were up to the job and I was never wrong. On that day I would immediatley put them on the full rate and we kicked on.

At no stage however did I think that I should pay them nothing during this period. They worked, they deserved payment. I really think that if the business model for companies now is to bid for contracts basing their figures on getting free labour to do it, then really they are not an actual business. It is stealing. It used to be that you factored wages in as a cost to your company, now it seems to be being treated like some sort of avoidable hassle by some employers. It is just wrong and bodes ill for the future.

Jubo · 06-06-2011 9:45am

Op, if you're young enough and feeling brave enough, emigrate. I would, if I was young, brave and didn't have three kids! Emigration isn't necessarily an awful thing. Broaden the horizons and all that! It can save you having to sit here for the next x number of years (sorry folks, don't mean to sound so negative) watching the situation deteriorate. I emigrated to come here 20 years ago and for the most part its been good. Getting a lot tougher now, but we're kinda stuck here for the moment. If you're prepared to work, you'll get on fine anywhere.

And yes, I'm afraid I won't discourage my own kids if they want to go, although it makes me feel so desperately sad to think they could end up moving away.

djpbarry · 06-06-2011 9:48am

Prakari wrote: »

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Until young people realise that jobs don’t come for free, regardless of the prevailing economic conditions, then Ireland will remain a very boring and depressing place for them. I worked in DIT for a number of years and the attitude I frequently encountered among “soon-to-be-graduates” (usually in biotechnology or a related discipline) was nothing short of appalling. Even at the height of an economic boom and unprecedented demand for such graduates, many had difficulty securing employment, simply because they were of the opinion that their qualifications guaranteed them employment – I heard several horror stories of interviews being attended in jeans and t-shirts (although admittedly, these were extreme cases). I should of course stress that I am referring to a minority of students, but quite a large minority. It’s also probably worth mentioning that I recall the career guidance “teacher” at my school (in the mid to late 90’s) propagating similar myths about graduates walking into employment.

pog it wrote: »

I watched a documentary about him a couple of years ago and in it he said that he considered leaving the country at one point when he was young but was persuaded to stay having been advised that it's better to stay and contribute something to your country if you can rather than to emigrate.

That’s pretty terrible advice – he should have done what was best for him. Most emigrants ultimately return home, bringing valuable skills and experience with them, which will ultimately benefit the country. Think of it as the long-term importing of expertise from abroad.

Permabear wrote: »

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Ireland is not in a hopeless situation – things could be a whole lot worse. There are certainly pressing issues that need to be addressed, but the problems are not insurmountable.

Dannyboy83 · 06-06-2011 10:21am

No offence OP, but you sound a little naieve.
What is there to 'contribute'?
How can you be loyal to a country that doesn't give a damn about you?
Look at the people who run the country, they are loyal only to their bank accounts.

Have you ever read Eamon De Valera's biography?
The man was loyal to nothing/nobody except himself.
He certainly wasn't loyal to Ireland.
Seriously, start looking out for #1 and don't believe any of the propaganda/romantic horsesh1t

ei.sdraob · 06-06-2011 10:56am

There is a 3rd option of which one can avail of

stay here and milk the system

RichardAnd · 06-06-2011 11:10am

professore wrote: »

With two exceptions ... volunteer charity work or work experience as part of a college course.

Yes, I agree. These would be two exceptions.

RichardAnd · 06-06-2011 11:41am

population wrote: »

At no stage however did I think that I should pay them nothing during this period. They worked, they deserved payment. I really think that if the business model for companies now is to bid for contracts basing their figures on getting free labour to do it, then really they are not an actual business. It is stealing. It used to be that you factored wages in as a cost to your company, now it seems to be being treated like some sort of avoidable hassle by some employers. It is just wrong and bodes ill for the future.

I can personally name three different firms that have bid, and won, government contracts by counting un-paid interns as members of staff. As these firms are clients of my own company, I can't actually name them but it demonstrates that it does go on, alot.

I'm just thankful that my own company small as it is, does not engage in that brand of chancer antics.

dan_d · 06-06-2011 2:50pm

Op, I'm unemployed, and emigration is one of our options.

Setting aside advice from randomners, or whatever, I see a couple of sides to this argument (I should add that my feeling on the whole thing fluctuates wildly from day to day.)

On one side, I can't help wondering why the hell I'm struggling along here, trying to make things work, trying to find a job, worrying all the time about where money will come from, how I'll ever get an income again (I've been working for the last 5 years before this) and listening to some of the crap that's spouted by various know-it-alls around the country. I frequently ask myself why I don't just leave, walk into a job (that I know would be there for me) on the other side of the Atlantic, that pays well and set up life there.

Another side of me then asks "why the f*&k should I be driven out of my country?" Why should I have to leave my house, my family, my friends, the places and people I love, just because somebody else screwed up. Why should I be one of the ones that has to go? Why don't I just make my way here, screw them all, and look after myself?

I've yet to decide which side I'll come down on. But I'll be damned if let the actions of some suit-wearing politician with half a brain, dictate what happens in my life.

Permabear · 06-06-2011 5:02pm

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Duffy the Vampire Slayer · 06-06-2011 5:13pm

Permabear wrote: »

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As far as I'm aware there is a graduate placement scheme which does that. I'm in favour of graduates being able to gain experience through this but I'd worry that companies will use it as a way to cut costs and take on less paid staff.

tweedledee · 06-06-2011 5:22pm

I recently moved back here from far far away.Yep everybody,EVERYBODY said I must have a medical condition or something.
I honestly NEVER realised how miserable this country had become.
Coming back every few months for a holiday dosn't prepare you for actually living here.
THE BIGGEST MISTAKE I HAVE EVER MADE IN MY LIFE

:(
Its not just the lack of jobs thing,its the whole system.All the major companies are jumping on the "work experience" bandwagon.Work for free crap.I have tons of qualifications and experience in HR and still every company wants me to work an entire year for NOTHING??????
The recession really showed up the negative traits of Ireland and the Irish and its not getting any better.
I gave it a bash but its time to go back to where I recently arrived from and enjoy life instead of just existing here in Ireland.
To anybody thinking about leaving just go and experience the world.You will look at yer life in a whole new way.
I recently read in an Economics magazine that approx 70% of Irish who leave these shores dont come back.Thats very sad.:(

Permabear · 06-06-2011 5:30pm

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tweedledee · 06-06-2011 5:31pm

A very large supermarket chain have just advertised for degree holders to join their "excellent" work placement scheme and work 50 hours a week for free to gain experience in management.
The same company,just over a year ago,were offering a salary of approx 40000 yoyos for the same "management job".
This supermarket chain is just one of many businesses doing the same thing,which should be illegal as the work placement scheme was not set up to be abused like this by employers.
But as the Irish government are in the pocket of big business nothing will change.:mad:

pog it · 06-06-2011 5:33pm

Yes think maybe I am being naive somewhat Drummerboy.

Have decided make the move out of here at the end of the summer and get away from here for 12 months at least. No way am I paying taxes to cover banking losses and all the other blood suckers in this country. Life is too short.

HellFireClub · 06-06-2011 5:37pm

Permabear wrote: »

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Yeah, work for free, there's always work to be found if you will do it for nothing...

HellFireClub · 06-06-2011 5:40pm

tweedledee wrote: »

A very large supermarket chain have just advertised for degree holders to join their "excellent" work placement scheme and work 50 hours a week for free to gain experience in management.
The same company,just over a year ago,were offering a salary of approx 40000 yoyos for the same "management job".
This supermarket chain is just one of many businesses doing the same thing,which should be illegal as the work placement scheme was not set up to be abused like this by employers.
But as the Irish government are in the pocket of big business nothing will change.:mad:

+100, this government and the shower of spastics before them, seem to be able to come up with any type of a scheme or a plan, except the one we need which will result in full time fair and decent PAID job opportunities...

tweedledee · 06-06-2011 5:43pm

For anybody thinking of making the move,Canada is superb and vast followed by Down Unda.;)

JENNYWREN19 · 06-06-2011 5:56pm

dan_d wrote: »

Op, I'm unemployed, and emigration is one of our options.

Setting aside advice from randomners, or whatever, I see a couple of sides to this argument (I should add that my feeling on the whole thing fluctuates wildly from day to day.)

On one side, I can't help wondering why the hell I'm struggling along here, trying to make things work, trying to find a job, worrying all the time about where money will come from, how I'll ever get an income again (I've been working for the last 5 years before this) and listening to some of the crap that's spouted by various know-it-alls around the country. I frequently ask myself why I don't just leave, walk into a job (that I know would be there for me) on the other side of the Atlantic, that pays well and set up life there.

Another side of me then asks "why the f*&k should I be driven out of my country?" Why should I have to leave my house, my family, my friends, the places and people I love, just because somebody else screwed up. Why should I be one of the ones that has to go? Why don't I just make my way here, screw them all, and look after myself?

I've yet to decide which side I'll come down on. But I'll be damned if let the actions of some suit-wearing politician with half a brain, dictate what happens in my life.

My sentiments exactly. I moved countries once for economic reasons, and I'll be damned if I'm wandering off to another country to start again, even though I've been unemployed for six months now. we can't just pack up and move every time our inept government lands us with their problems. I'm amazed there hasn't been more demonstrations against new charges and cuts though. I believe too many people are hoping that they can just leave. Well, we can't all desert the sinking ship so what are we going to do? I know if I'm hit with water charges etc I'll expect a reliable water supply that doesn't pack up at the first sign of frost, otherwise they can go sing. Honestly. are we all going to as we're told or stick two fingers up to the government and tell them to do their job. THE GOVERNMENT ARE OUR SERVANTS, NOT THE OTHER WAY ROUND

djpbarry · 06-06-2011 6:12pm

Permabear wrote: »

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Sorry, I was a bit non-hysterical there for a moment...

djpbarry · 06-06-2011 6:13pm

tweedledee wrote: »

I have tons of qualifications and experience in HR and still every company wants me to work an entire year for NOTHING??????

Possibly because qualifications and/or experience in HR are not in demand right now?

tweedledee wrote: »

I recently read in an Economics magazine that approx 70% of Irish who leave these shores dont come back.

I find that very hard to believe.

HellFireClub wrote: »

this government and the shower of spastics before them, seem to be able to come up with any type of a scheme or a plan, except the one we need which will result in full time fair and decent PAID job opportunities...

What might such a plan look like?

Stay and do something or get the hell away?!

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