M20 - Cork to Limerick [preferred route chosen; in design - phase 3]

jank · 05-02-2015 9:33am

cgcsb wrote: »

we can but imagine, the oil and car industries are powerful.

More conspiracy theory than anything else tbh, especially given how small a market the oil market in Ireland is given that oil itself has decreased by 60% the past 12 months.

Trains are good. I like trains. I have travel on trains when I can but most importantly when its affordable and good value for money. The motorway has changed the game. The last few times I have come into Dublin, I have gotten the Air Coach down to Cork. Handy out as I prefer this 3 hours heading south and flying in direct from OZ via the Gulf rather than staying around in London for a few hours and then flying into Cork.
Saying that I did once fly into AMS and then onto Cork which was not too bad either.

For people to consider trains they need to join the dots of a dysfunctional public transport solution that we have in Ireland. For many heading to Cork from Limerick, they would be going elsewhere like, UCC or CUH. For this they need to get a bus which aint great and a little erratic to say the least not to being that Kent station is not really 'in' the city centre. Also not everyone is going to live within a 10km radius of the train station.

Unfortunately, Ireland does not have the population density to support hugely expensive high speed trains like we see in Europe or Asia. We also lack density in urban areas where most estates are sprawled out into the country side. Which is why the car is favored by most.

However, we are a very small country by landmass size.A proper motorway network which rings the country could be easily developed and which links all the major urban centres.

Dublin -> Roslare -> Waterford -> Limerick -> Galway -> Sligo -> Derry -> Belfast -> Dublin. Anyone with half a brain knows this makes sense.

Well over 50% of the population of the island lives in these centres, which are not that far apart all things considered. Spending about 1.3 or so billion in building a road from Cork to Limerick and Gort to Tuam, which would make much of this western link viable is not bad in the grand scheme of things when you consider that this road will be used for the next 100 years (with proper maintenance of course)

Infrastructure costs money, but over the long run it pays for itself. We wont need a hospital in every poxy parish or a university in every town if we actually connected the small country of ours by a decent road network.

In Sydney, where infrastructure spending has not kept up with growth there has been a new effort to build transport services that will keep the place flowing for the next 20 years.

The westconnex is deemed an important part of this. This is 33 km road in the inner west of Sydney build to freeway standard which incorporates about 12 km of tunnels.
http://www.westconnex.com.au/
Cost is estimated to be in the region of $10 Billion

Northconnex is another example. 9km of two 3 lane tunnels built up to 100m underground to connect the M2 to the M1 (Pacific Highway) Cost $3 billion

If you think its all roads then they are also building a light railway/tram system in the cbd out to Kingsford. Cost $2.1 billion

You like rail. North-West rail link connecting Paramatta to Epping and has been flagged for years as despertately needed. Construction under way. Cost $2.5 billion.

Melbourne too has been trying to build a east-west link at the cost of $17billion. Ill be honest and say that seems a tad pricy for 18km of freeway but I don't know enough about it so it may well be worth it.

Then you have a glance at private infrastructure projects by mining companies or oil companies. These guys could spend the guts of over $30 billion to develop a resource and get the commodity onto a railway track to be shipped over seas by some port that could be 1000km away. These are long term 30-50 year investments, not celtic tiger 'we will just build houses and sell them' crap.

My point. I will reiterate. Spending about 1.3 billion for the M20 and the M17/18 is not expensive given the need for this project and the benefits it will bring for these counties involved. We need to stop being afraid at spending large on big infrastructure projects. Sure, get a good bang for buck. I believe money was wasted in the early years of road building and the Luas especially but we are becoming better at these types of projects.

The NRA seems to have learned lots of lessons from the past and I would trust them with a few billion much more readily than the RPA or god forbid the money pit that is CIE

mydiscworld · 05-02-2015 10:03am

Billy Kelleher TD should be seeking at least approval to continue with the planning permission stage.

That in itself could take a year or two depending on appeals. Better to get that stage sorted now with minimal funding required and to have it ready to go when funding is provided

cgcsb · 05-02-2015 11:04am

jank wrote: »

My point. I will reiterate. Spending about 1.3 billion for the M20 and the M17/18 is not expensive given the need for this project and the benefits it will bring for these counties involved. We need to stop being afraid at spending large on big infrastructure projects. Sure, get a good bang for buck. I believe money was wasted in the early years of road building and the Luas especially but we are becoming better at these types of projects.

That was a long post, and I'm not really sure what the point was. So I'll just reply to this bit. My original point was that if instead of spending 1.3bn on the M20 we spent about €15m on a radical improvement of rail connections between Cork and Limerick; the net result would be a decrease in traffic on the N20, a reduction in transport related emissions, which we really need right now to meet our international commitments, and an overall improvement in journey time for everyone.

You might say well what about HGVs, the fact is only 7.2% of traffic on the N20 is HGV's the remaining 92.8% of vehicle journeys can be substatially reduced by a small investment in public transport.

Cookiemunster · 05-02-2015 11:29am

cgcsb wrote: »

That was a long post, and I'm not really sure what the point was. So I'll just reply to this bit. My original point was that if instead of spending 1.3bn on the M20 we spent about €15m on a radical improvement of rail connections between Cork and Limerick; the net result would be a decrease in traffic on the N20, a reduction in transport related emissions, which we really need right now to meet our international commitments, and an overall improvement in journey time for everyone.

You might say well what about HGVs, the fact is only 7.2% of traffic on the N20 is HGV's the remaining 92.8% of vehicle journeys can be substatially reduced by a small investment in public transport.

There may be a some reduction in traffic, but how much of a dent would it put in the 13,000 AADT at Croom for example. Most of this is commuter traffic and nobody who works in Raheen or Castletroy (the two main industrial areas in Limerick) is going to get a train to Colbert Station in the city center and make the trek back out to these areas.
It's a nice idea but it's just not realistic, especially remembering that Charleville, Buttevant and Mallow will still need to be bypassed anyway.

Rightwing · 05-02-2015 11:40am

Cookiemunster wrote: »

There may be a some reduction in traffic, but how much of a dent would it put in the 13,000 AADT at Croom for example. Most of this is commuter traffic and nobody who works in Raheen or Castletroy (the two main industrial areas in Limerick) is going to get a train to Colbert Station in the city center and make the trek back out to these areas.
It's a nice idea but it's just not realistic, especially remembering that Charleville, Buttevant and Mallow will still need to be bypassed anyway.

Agreed. Trains are far more appropriate for high density population centres like London, where you can get the Tube for connections.

cgcsb · 05-02-2015 12:00pm

Cookiemunster wrote: »

There may be a some reduction in traffic, but how much of a dent would it put in the 13,000 AADT at Croom for example. Most of this is commuter traffic and nobody who works in Raheen or Castletroy (the two main industrial areas in Limerick) is going to get a train to Colbert Station in the city center and make the trek back out to these areas.
It's a nice idea but it's just not realistic, especially remembering that Charleville, Buttevant and Mallow will still need to be bypassed anyway.

Do people commute regularly between Cork and Raheen/Castleroy? I doubt it. I would say most Cork-Limerick journeys, like all intercity journeys in Ireland, are irregular events. Perhaps people commute from Croom, which is already bypassed. Also Mallow, Charleville and Buttevant can have bypasses for a fraction of the 1.3bn cost, and the bypasses won't encourage more people to use cars the way a high spec motorway would.

besides integrated ticketing and an improvement in bus connections in Limerick and Cork Cities could be implemented and have far wider benefits.

cgcsb · 05-02-2015 12:15pm

Rightwing wrote: »

Agreed. Trains are far more appropriate for high density population centres like London, where you can get the Tube for connections.

Cork and Limerick already have a relatively fast, reliable rail connection. Making it a bit faster and better integrated is what I'm talking about, not building a new link from scratch.

Cookiemunster · 05-02-2015 12:20pm

cgcsb wrote: »

Do people commute regularly between Cork and Raheen/Castleroy? I doubt it. I would say most Cork-Limerick journeys, like all intercity journeys in Ireland, are irregular events. Perhaps people commute from Croom, which is already bypassed. Also Mallow, Charleville and Buttevant can have bypasses for a fraction of the 1.3bn cost, and the bypasses won't encourage more people to use cars the way a high spec motorway would.

Most journeys on the N20 are Mallow - Cork commute or Charleville - Limerick commute. That's the reason the AADT is around 10000 between Charleville and Buttevent, but rises to 16000 South of Mallow and 20000 South of Blarney. And interciity train is not going to remove these journeys.
And Croom to Mallow is one of the worst roads in the country and needs to be replaced completely. Bypasses on their own are not enough.

Cookiemunster · 05-02-2015 12:24pm

cgcsb wrote: »

Cork and Limerick already have a relatively fast, reliable rail connection. Making it a bit faster and better integrated is what I'm talking about, not building a new link from scratch.

Getting a train 5 miles passed you destination and then having to make the journey back out to where you work is not going to get people out of their cars. Again the majority of traffic on this route is commuter traffic heading for work in either Cork or Limerick.

cgcsb · 05-02-2015 1:00pm

Cookiemunster wrote: »

Mallow - Cork commute

Which already has a commuter rail service which needs to be better integrated into the City.

Cookiemunster wrote: »

Buttevent, but rises to 16000 South of Mallow and 20000 South of Blarney.

There is already a station planned for Blarney

Cookiemunster wrote: »

And Croom to Mallow is one of the worst roads in the country and needs to be replaced completely. Bypasses on their own are not enough.

Perhaps, the overall thrust of my point is that much cheaper measures can have wide reaching benefits while also reducing traffic on the N20 and avoiding a massive spend, encouraging modal shift and reducing car dependence. In most developed countries these measures would be considered and implemented as part of a joint up strategy, including road improvements.

In Ireland we have the NRA and CIE in a competitive stand off, the two don't compliment each other to address the transport needs of the people, they simply propose separate plans and waste money. The net effect is that road projects get gargantuan investment and more people are encouraged to use their cars as a result which drains money out of the economy.

Cookiemunster · 05-02-2015 1:14pm

cgcsb wrote: »

Which already has a commuter rail service which needs to be better integrated into the City.

There is already a station planned for Blarney

Perhaps, the overall thrust of my point is that much cheaper measures can have wide reaching benefits while also reducing traffic on the N20 and avoiding a massive spend, encouraging modal shift and reducing car dependence. In most developed countries these measures would be considered and implemented as part of a joint up strategy, including road improvements.

In Ireland we have the NRA and CIE in a competitive stand off, the two don't compliment each other to address the transport needs of the people, they simply propose separate plans and waste money. The net effect is that road projects get gargantuan investment and more people are encouraged to use their cars as a result which drains money out of the economy.

The fact is that this is Ireland, which outside Dublin has a very low population density. There simply isn't the population density to get regular commuter services along the N20 corridor. People living in one off houses dotted around counties Limerick and Cork are not going to drive to a train station, get a train and then get a bus to their destination when the can drive A-B via the N20 in half the time.

cgcsb · 05-02-2015 2:46pm

Cookiemunster wrote: »

The fact is that this is Ireland, which outside Dublin has a very low population density. There simply isn't the population density to get regular commuter services along the N20 corridor.

There already is a regular commuter service to Mallow and hourly services between Cork and Limerick, what I suggest is a modest investment to improve these services, perhaps a park and ride would be more attractive. Ireland having 'too low a population density' to support good public transport is quite simply a myth perpetuated by a select few and listened to by the masses. Norway, Sweeden and Iceland all have much lower densities and still have decent public transport outside the capitals. It's a matter of investment.

Cookiemunster wrote: »

People living in one off houses dotted around counties Limerick and Cork are not going to drive to a train station, get a train and then get a bus to their destination when the can drive A-B via the N20 in half the time.

That is a planning error on the part of the state. there is a way to correct it, i.e. higher densities and better public transport, but which comes first? chicken or egg?

jank · 05-02-2015 3:03pm

cgcsb wrote: »

Cork and Limerick already have a relatively fast, reliable rail connection. Making it a bit faster and better integrated is what I'm talking about, not building a new link from scratch.

Well if you define fast as in it takes one and a half hours to get from Cork to Limerick when the cities are 100km distance from each other then I am afraid you are not going to convience anyone. If this road is built it would take 55 minutes by car.

Calina · 05-02-2015 3:03pm

cgcsb wrote: »

It's a matter of investment.

This is true. But already there is a lack of will to pour money into public transport in the cities which would have a significant impact emissions wise if you could get efficient transport there.

And, being honest, improving public transport is not an argument against improving the Cork Limerick road corridor. The N20 is a fiasco between towns and villages not bypassed and very poor standard road at certain intervals.

jgbyr · 05-02-2015 3:05pm

But aren't alot of areas on the way to Dublin covered by an excellent commuter service.by rail & also have an excellent road infrastructure. It's a capital thing really.

Calina · 05-02-2015 3:08pm

cgcsb wrote: »

Cork and Limerick already have a relatively fast, reliable rail connection. Making it a bit faster and better integrated is what I'm talking about, not building a new link from scratch.

The connection is ca 1'35" to 2 hours. The bus connection, at its fastest is 2 hours.

You can drive it in around 1'30" per Google.

In that respect, the rail connection isn't anything close to fast and it compares badly with private transport.

jank · 05-02-2015 3:09pm

cgcsb wrote: »

There already is a regular commuter service to Mallow and hourly services between Cork and Limerick, what I suggest is a modest investment to improve these services, perhaps a park and ride would be more attractive. Ireland having 'too low a population density' to support good public transport is quite simply a myth perpetuated by a select few and listened to by the masses. Norway, Sweeden and Iceland all have much lower densities and still have decent public transport outside the capitals. It's a matter of investment.

That is a planning error on the part of the state. there is a way to correct it, i.e. higher densities and better public transport, but which comes first? chicken or egg?

Again, it all looks good on the back of a napkin but most of the people who travel from Mallow work in places like Apple in Holly Hill, Little Island, Mahon and so on. Public transport from the city to these places is erratic and not up to scratch to say the least. The reason I mention those three places because I know of three people that work in Cork in those places that live in Mallow and travel by car. The train would not work unless you improve drastically Cork public transport first, the one can talk about a proper commuter service. Planning permission as well needs to improve to stop one off housing and increase housing density in the city but thats another topic.

Regardless the road needs upgrading. One may think that a motorway is over spec'ed but they said the same about the m50 when it was first muted. Rather build it to a high standard now and it saves later on.

cgcsb · 05-02-2015 3:10pm

Calina wrote: »

This is true. But already there is a lack of will to pour money into public transport in the cities which would have a significant impact emissions wise if you could get efficient transport there.

Agreed the whole process needs a proper shake up. A City the size of Cork having most of it's inbound commutes made by car is a shocking disgrace in a country trying to reduce it's carbon emissions and oil dependency.

Calina wrote: »

And, being honest, improving public transport is not an argument against improving the Cork Limerick road corridor. The N20 is a fiasco between towns and villages not bypassed and very poor standard road at certain intervals.

Of course not, but all possible solutions should be considered and an integrated strategy developed for a reasonable cost. The N20 will still require at least some improvement either way.

cgcsb · 05-02-2015 3:14pm

Calina wrote: »

The connection is ca 1'35" to 2 hours. The bus connection, at its fastest is 2 hours.

You can drive it in around 1'30" per Google.

In that respect, the rail connection isn't anything close to fast and it compares badly with private transport.

I doubt you'd do it in 1h30 in bad traffic. It's fast in an Irish context in the sense that it is almost the same journey time as by road. This is why I suggested some small improvements which could reduce the rail journey time, making it more competitive, therefore reducing traffic on the N20.

jank · 05-02-2015 3:21pm

cgcsb wrote: »

That was a long post, and I'm not really sure what the point was. So I'll just reply to this bit. My original point was that if instead of spending 1.3bn on the M20 we spent about €15m on a radical improvement of rail connections between Cork and Limerick; the net result would be a decrease in traffic on the N20, a reduction in transport related emissions, which we really need right now to meet our international commitments, and an overall improvement in journey time for everyone.

You might say well what about HGVs, the fact is only 7.2% of traffic on the N20 is HGV's the remaining 92.8% of vehicle journeys can be substatially reduced by a small investment in public transport.

The point is that people think that we can have world class transport systems for nothing. The country needs billions pumped into its water, road, telecoms, drainage and rail systems. We are terrible at thinking long term and terrified of spending money, so we do things half arsed.

The M20/M18/M17 corridor would be the main artery way for the west of the country. One could easily set up shuttle services to Shannon to fly trans atlantic from Cork as I imagine the same will be done in Galway once the M18 is done.

I know for one that it will make it much more attractive for people from Cork to go up to Mayo or Sligo for the day or the weekend if its so much quicker and more importantly safer to travel. Nobody bats an eyelid now of going to Dublin for the day on a drive. I remember the times when this journey one way could take 5 hours. Now, its doable city centre to city centre in about 2 and a half hours.

This is a multifaceted project with benefits for many. Linking up the 2nd, 3rd and 4th largest cities in the state by a motorway would create an industrial corridor that could rival Dublin and take the pressure of infrastructure there.

cgcsb · 05-02-2015 3:27pm

jank wrote: »

Again, it all looks good on the back of a napkin but most of the people who travel from Mallow work in places like Apple in Holly Hill, Little Island, Mahon and so on. Public transport from the city to these places is erratic and not up to scratch to say the least. The reason I mention those three places because I know of three people that work in Cork in those places that live in Mallow and travel by car. The train would not work unless you improve drastically Cork public transport first, the one can talk about a proper commuter service. Planning permission as well needs to improve to stop one off housing and increase housing density in the city but thats another topic.

All reasons to radically improve public transport, not reasons to built a motorway to encourage more people to use their cars. Saying public transport isn't good, so let's build a motorway so people can drive is 1970's madness.

jank wrote: »

Regardless the road needs upgrading. One may think that a motorway is over spec'ed but they said the same about the m50 when it was first muted. Rather build it to a high standard now and it saves later on.

I'm glad you mentioned the M50 as an example. We're now in a situation where it is no longer possible to further upgrade the M50. Currently the Blanch-Tallaght section of the M50 is the busiest road in the state, despite this there is no parallel public transport service of any kind, madness you might say.

The NTA are currently preparing options for addressing the M50 issue, the favoured one being a new bus/cycling/pedestrian bridge over the liffey to the west of the existing westlink, and starting 2 to 5 new north-south bus routes.

So here we have a transport problem that was ultimately unsolvable by adding more road capacity. I think it's a great example to summon when talking about building motorways purely as a method of congestion relief.

spacetweek · 05-02-2015 3:27pm

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

I have said it before and I’ll say it again; the rail link could be done quite cheap if planned in conjunction with the M20. When CPOing land for the M20, widen the land take from Charleville to Patrickswell so that a direct rail track can be provided alongside the motorway. Earthworks and structures for the motorway could be designed to accommodate the new train line at relatively little extra over cost above that already required to build the motorway.

Let CIE lay the tracks and make necessary improvements to stations when they are prepared to implement direct Cork - Limerick services. Additional stations would be optional but a P&R at Patrickswell would probably be a good idea.

If the railway line ran alongside the motorway that would mean all the stations would be too far from their towns.

Calina · 05-02-2015 3:28pm

cgcsb wrote: »

I doubt you'd do it in 1h30 in bad traffic. It's fast in an Irish context in the sense that it is almost the same journey time as by road. This is why I suggested some small improvements which could reduce the rail journey time, making it more competitive, therefore reducing traffic on the N20.

Believe me, you'd have to reduce the rail journey time by half for it to be worth your while. Currently it runs via Limerick Junction. This is not an efficient route for what is essentially a local rail service.

jank · 05-02-2015 3:43pm

cgcsb wrote: »

All reasons to radically improve public transport, not reasons to built a motorway to encourage more people to use their cars. Saying public transport isn't good, so let's build a motorway so people can drive is 1970's madness.

I'm glad you mentioned the M50 as an example. We're now in a situation where it is no longer possible to further upgrade the M50. Currently the Blanch-Tallaght section of the M50 is the busiest road in the state, despite this there is no parallel public transport service of any kind, madness you might say.

The NTA are currently preparing options for addressing the M50 issue, the favoured one being a new bus/cycling/pedestrian bridge over the liffey to the west of the existing westlink, and starting 2 to 5 new north-south bus routes.

So here we have a transport problem that was ultimately unsolvable by adding more road capacity. I think it's a great example to summon when talking about building motorways purely as a method of congestion relief.

I am all for improving public transport in urban areas. I would like nothing more than for the Metro West and North to be given the go ahead in Dublin as its clear more needs to be done there.

Cork would be somewhat similar. Once the Dunkettle roundabout is upgraded, the M20 is done and some spur from the South ring round to the M20 is built then most road improvements options are out. M25 is being funded by the EU afaik.

However, you even have admitted that the N20 needs improving. There is no point going back to the 80's and having a poxy bypass here and there while a lot of the road is still terrible. There is a picture a few pages back where cattle are on the road, crossing it. We are talking about the road that connects the 2nd and 3rd larges cities in the state and you have livestock on it as if its some country lane!!

The M20 should be part of a multi decade long investment in road and public transport. Luas in Cork would be nice but as yet its just a dream on paper. This road is more tangible and much more likely to be finished in the next 5 or so years.

No point improving commuter services if it drops you in a place you don't want to be and where you want its hard to get to. Urban public transport needs to improve first. Spin out Cork bus from CIE for one thing. It will improve things no end.

Chris_5339762 · 05-02-2015 3:54pm

cgcsb wrote: »

The NTA are currently preparing options for addressing the M50 issue, the favoured one being a new bus/cycling/pedestrian bridge over the liffey to the west of the existing westlink, and starting 2 to 5 new north-south bus routes..

2 to 5 bus routes that will not be used enough because they won't be frequent, nice, and will be run by a bus company that has no interest in customers, only in preserving itself. Also, build Metro West instead, much high capacity and infinitely better than a few bus routes.

Actually, scratch that. Build Metro West AND put in the bus routes.

Pete_Cavan · 05-02-2015 4:14pm

spacetweek wrote: »

If the railway line ran alongside the motorway that would mean all the stations would be too far from their towns.

The only possible station between Charleville and Limerick would be at Patrickswell which could serve the town and as a P&R for those from south Limerick/north Cork travelling into Limerick city. With a new alignment alongside the motorway, trains would be able to reach good speeds, and, with some minor improvements on the existing line further south, the aim should be for journey times of close to an hour from Kent to Colbert. That would be a good service and should attract users but it goes without saying that that does not negate the need for the M20 in away way. In fact, the new rail alignment would only be possible if done in conjunction with the M20 because most of the cost would be consumed into the M20 project.

jgbyr · 05-02-2015 4:19pm

I can't see anyone driving 20 odds miles from North Cork to Patrickswell so as to get a train 5 miles to limerick.

cgcsb · 05-02-2015 5:10pm

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

2 to 5 bus routes that will not be used enough because they won't be frequent, nice, and will be run by a bus company that has no interest in customers, only in preserving itself. Also, build Metro West instead, much high capacity and infinitely better than a few bus routes.

Actually, scratch that. Build Metro West AND put in the bus routes.

Who says they'd be infrequent and/or run by Dublin bus? All orbital Dublin Bus routes are now open for private tenders.

littlemac1980 · 05-02-2015 6:09pm

A real train link between Cork and Limerick would be great.

Of course it wouldn't be a substitute for a proper road which is way way way overdue.

Typical Ireland. It's the 21st century and we still don't have a real road between our second and third cities. It's total nonsense. Utter stupidity.

Schadenfreudia · 08-02-2015 3:37pm

Read in the paper (Irish Times I think) that if they gave the go-ahead to the M20 today it would take ten years before it was opened despite it having been ready to go for planning permission in 2011.

If true, this is a monumental condemnation on out current environmental/planning/procurement systems.

We're going to be able compete with Asia by 2020? :mad:

M20 - Cork to Limerick [preferred route chosen; in design - phase 3]

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