Proposed Public sector pay rises

fliball123 · 20-01-2015 1:50pm #1

Is it just me or is the timing of this a spin to get Labour back some of their core public sector votes..My biggest gripe over this is not one political or media outlet have asked the relevant question about this injustice if it goes ahead. That question being.

Where the phuck are you getting the money for pay rises when we are still borrowing 8 billion this year and we are over 200billion in debt. Mr Howlin please outline what taxes I , my kids and grand kids will have to pay for this payrise?

washman3 · 20-01-2015 1:52pm

General Election looming... simple as.;)

fliball123 · 20-01-2015 1:54pm

washman3 wrote: »

General Election looming... simple as.;)

True yet it doesn't excuse the lack of asking the phecker the appropriate question

barneystinson · 20-01-2015 2:03pm

Nice one, looks like I'll be able to stop buying Tesco own brand caviar and go back to the good stuff... :cool:

Riskymove · 20-01-2015 2:06pm

The Haddington Road agreement expires in 2016 so some new approach is needed. it is better to agree these in advance rather than some panic in 2016

The other measures were introduced under emergency powers legislation which will no longer apply from this year so again agreement on the future approach is needed.

fliball123 · 20-01-2015 2:09pm

Riskymove wrote: »

The Haddington Road agreement expires in 2016 so some new approach is needed. it is better to agree these in advance rather than some panic in 2016

The other measures were introduced under emergency powers legislation which will no longer apply from this year so again agreement on the future approach is needed.

Sorry what has changed are we out of the debt and no longer running a deficit? The conditions are still there

jcon1913 · 20-01-2015 2:13pm

fliball123 wrote: »

Is it just me or is the timing of this a spin to get Labour back some of their core public sector votes..My biggest gripe over this is not one political or media outlet have asked the relevant question about this injustice if it goes ahead. That question being.

Where the phuck are you getting the money for pay rises when we are still borrowing 8 billion this year and we are over 200billion in debt. Mr Howlin please outline what taxes I , my kids and grand kids will have to pay for this payrise?

The public sector is still way overpaid when compared to other EU countries. Maybe keep the Health service pay bills down? Something has to be done to keep the services without saddling the taxpayer with more debt.

barneystinson · 20-01-2015 2:21pm

jcon1913 wrote: »

The public sector is still way overpaid when compared to other EU countries. Maybe keep the Health service pay bills down? Something has to be done to keep the services without saddling the taxpayer with more debt.

Statement of fact based on comparison: any chance of a link to whatever comparison you're referring to?

Rezident · 20-01-2015 2:21pm

Well, as someone currently working in the public sector, I think it might have something to do with the droves of people leaving, particularly at senior levels. I've lost count of how many people have left in the last year (virtually all to the private sector, and almost all for significantly higher salaries), it's shocking. Another Leaving Card was passed around yesterday and I was joking, 'who's leaving this week'?. We are getting gutted.

I can't speak for the rest of the public sector - and maybe it should be somehow split up to reflect the clear differences between dept.s that, apparently don't do a whole lot, and those that are extremely busy (all paid the same of course) and clearly highly valued in the private sector.

fliball123 · 20-01-2015 2:25pm

Rezident wrote: »

Well, as someone currently working in the public sector, I think it might have something to do with the droves of people leaving, particularly at senior levels. I've lost count of how many people have left in the last year (virtually all to the private sector, and almost all for significantly higher salaries), it's shocking. Another Leaving Card was passed around yesterday and I was joking, 'who's leaving this week'?. We are getting gutted.

I can't speak for the rest of the public sector - and maybe it should be somehow split up to reflect the clear differences between dept.s that, apparently don't do a whole lot, and those that are extremely busy (all paid the same of course) and clearly highly valued in the private sector.

And Jesus wept in the private sector what goes on is you are in a job one day and your redundant that next no choice about it but forcefully told you have no job...how terrible it is that the lushes in the ps are able to leave on their own terms.

Rezident · 20-01-2015 2:29pm

Yet another girl leaving at the start of February! Honestly, that will be close to 10 (out of 45) gone in the last year! She told me she is getting an extra 20k (London admittedly, not Dublin), but most who have left that I know are still in Dublin and they are not leaving just so that they can work longer hours in the private sector.

Hours have gotten longer here (fair enough), pay was cut by around 15% including pension levy etc. fair enough, there were a lot of cutbacks to benefits etc. a lot of little things, but they really do add up. And they were the reason we moved here. A lot of people, like myself, who moved from the private sector here for a better 'work life balance' are now seriously considering leaving because the famed 'shorter hours' are not a reality where I work (maybe they are elsewhere?) and we're getting payed less than similar jobs in financial services. Yes there is a good defined benefit pension at the end, but, I'll take the money now instead please Bob!

barneystinson · 20-01-2015 2:29pm

fliball123 wrote: »

And Jesus wept in the private sector what goes on is you are in a job one day and your redundant that next no choice about it but forcefully told you have no job...how terrible it is that the lushes in the ps are able to leave on their own terms.

That's not really relevant to the point he made, but don't let that minor inconvenience hinder a good rant...

barneystinson · 20-01-2015 2:33pm

Rezident wrote: »

Yes there is a good defined benefit pension at the end, but, I'll take the money now instead please Bob!

I wouldn't be counting my chickens on the pension either, I'll believe it if/when I see it in 30+ years' time...

fliball123 · 20-01-2015 2:34pm

barneystinson wrote: »

That's not really relevant to the point he made, but don't let that minor inconvenience hinder a good rant...

Sorry yes it is..the reality is the private sector do not do soft landings when a company is borrowing and broke it smacks into a wall and the employees go with it..This person is saying how terrible it is that they are leaving on their own terms and yet fail to see how terrible it has been for those in the private sector who have had no choice but to hit that wall and go on the dole...There is a correlation

Rightwing · 20-01-2015 2:47pm

Rezident wrote: »

Yet another girl leaving at the start of February! Honestly, that will be close to 10 (out of 45) gone in the last year! She told me she is getting an extra 20k (London admittedly, not Dublin), but most who have left that I know are still in Dublin and they are not leaving just so that they can work longer hours in the private sector.

Hours have gotten longer here (fair enough), pay was cut by around 15% including pension levy etc. fair enough, there were a lot of cutbacks to benefits etc. a lot of little things, but they really do add up. And they were the reason we moved here. A lot of people, like myself, who moved from the private sector here for a better 'work life balance' are now seriously considering leaving because the famed 'shorter hours' are not a reality where I work (maybe they are elsewhere?) and we're getting payed less than similar jobs in financial services. Yes there is a good defined benefit pension at the end, but, I'll take the money now instead please Bob!

Probably the ambitious people leaving. Move back to the private sector asap. The longer one spends in the PS, the less employable they become imo. The public sector is for cruise control operators.

robp · 20-01-2015 2:51pm

fliball123 wrote: »

Sorry yes it is..the reality is the private sector do not do soft landings when a company is borrowing and broke it smacks into a wall and the employees go with it..This person is saying how terrible it is that they are leaving on their own terms and yet fail to see how terrible it has been for those in the private sector who have had no choice but to hit that wall and go on the dole...There is a correlation

Its not a fair comparison. In many areas of the private sector job security matches the public sector. If you work in work in health, accountancy, farming or IT you have job security equal that to a public sector. Even if public sector lay-offs were possible they would not happen on a large scale as there is little demand to close hospitals, schools, libraries or museums where the large bulk of the public sector works.

fliball123 · 20-01-2015 2:58pm

robp wrote: »

Its not a fair comparison. In many areas of the private sector job security matches the public sector. If you work in work in health, accountancy, farming or IT you have job security equal that to a public sector. Even if public sector lay-offs were possible they would not happen on a large scale as there is little demand to close hospitals, schools, libraries or museums where the large bulk of the public sector works.

yet these comparisons that you state are not fair or possible were done twice just before the crash during the benchmarking exercise ..so is it only fair to do this if the wage of the PS is going up?

No one in the private sector has job security or pay rises based on time served or a gaurenteed pension at the end of your working life

Riskymove · 20-01-2015 3:00pm

fliball123 wrote: »

Sorry what has changed are we out of the debt and no longer running a deficit? The conditions are still there

The Government has already indicated the "end of austerity"

It isn't connected to the existence of a deficit

Howlin mentioned that he would not be able to go into the Dail to declare that the emergency still existed as required by the Act

jcon1913 · 20-01-2015 3:00pm

barneystinson wrote: »

Statement of fact based on comparison: any chance of a link to whatever comparison you're referring to?

Here ya go

Article in the Guardian that bastion of Free Market Capitalism telling us that perhaps the public service is paid too much

http://www.theguardian.com/business/ireland-business-blog-with-lisa-ocarroll/2011/sep/13/ireland-civil-servants-pay

Heres a link to a study by the European Central Bank

http://www.ecb.europa.eu/pub/pdf/scpwps/ecbwp1406.pdf

Conclusion in the Abstract ...

'.....with Greece, Ireland, Italy, Portugal and Spain exhibiting

higher public sector premia than other countries.''
.

Heres one that says that the top guys are overpaid but the bottom tier are underpaid:

http://www.thejournal.ie/top-irish-civil-servants-paid-more-than-eu-counterparts-277889-Nov2011/

Riskymove · 20-01-2015 3:02pm

fliball123 wrote: »

No one in the private sector has job security or pay rises based on time served or a gaurenteed pension at the end of your working life

you have had many threads where it has pointed out that these things happen.

It's unfortunate that this has just quickly descended, like ,many before, into the usual nonsense and digs

barneystinson · 20-01-2015 3:04pm

fliball123 wrote: »

yet these comparisons that you state are not fair or possible were done twice just before the crash during the benchmarking exercise ..so is it only fair to do this if the wage of the PS is going up?

In what parts of the private sector have wage rates fallen by 15-20%?

Del2005 · 20-01-2015 3:04pm

Rezident wrote: »

Well, as someone currently working in the public sector, I think it might have something to do with the droves of people leaving, particularly at senior levels. I've lost count of how many people have left in the last year (virtually all to the private sector, and almost all for significantly higher salaries), it's shocking. Another Leaving Card was passed around yesterday and I was joking, 'who's leaving this week'?. We are getting gutted.

I can't speak for the rest of the public sector - and maybe it should be somehow split up to reflect the clear differences between dept.s that, apparently don't do a whole lot, and those that are extremely busy (all paid the same of course) and clearly highly valued in the private sector.

TBH senior people leaving the civil service is a good thing, they are the people with high pay and brilliant terms and conditions , if they are quitting and not getting redundancy or early retirement. Then we can announce a load of new jobs just before the election or if the country was a business when they are back in profit.

Riskymove · 20-01-2015 3:04pm

jcon1913 wrote: »

Here ya go

articles are relating to 2011

professore · 20-01-2015 3:07pm

In many areas of the private sector job security matches the public sector. If you work in work in health, accountancy, farming or IT you have job security equal that to a public sector.

For someone who lived through the dotcom crash of '01 this is complete nonsense. IT has huge booms and busts. It's like saying the building sector back in '08.

jcon1913 · 20-01-2015 3:07pm

Riskymove wrote: »

articles are relating to 2011

Did I miss something? Did the Public Service get pay rises since 2011?

You are on here knocking peoples arguments - can you back up what you are saying yourself?

fliball123 · 20-01-2015 3:07pm

Riskymove wrote: »

The Government has already indicated the "end of austerity"

It isn't connected to the existence of a deficit

Howlin mentioned that he would not be able to go into the Dail to declare that the emergency still existed as required by the Act

This all depends on what you constitute an emergency ..

The debt going up month after month
Debt to GDP going up month after month
And still borrowing 8 billion this year...to me and any other sane person paying for the above this is a phucking emergency and how those phuckwit Howlin deal with it..by increasing the borrowing to pay payrises to on average, or by mean or median one of highest paid sectors in the OCED ...

Yet the likes of the quantitative easing effects that are coming have not even been taken into consideration by this phuckwit and will make growth in our economy a lot harder as our main export market England sterling will remain the same and the Euro will plummet further making this more expensive and until we understand the downfall from this, decisions such as ps payrises should not even be contemplated

robp · 20-01-2015 3:12pm

fliball123 wrote: »

yet these comparisons that you state are not fair or possible were done twice just before the crash during the benchmarking exercise ..so is it only fair to do this if the wage of the PS is going up?

No one in the private sector has job security or pay rises based on time served or a gaurenteed pension at the end of your working life

In certain sector they have limited job security as do the public sector. You can lose your job in the public sector. I know people in the public sector who have lost their jobs. It happens.

professore wrote: »

For someone who lived through the dotcom crash of '01 this is complete nonsense. IT has huge booms and busts. It's like saying the building sector back in '08.

It has cycles yes but at the moment there is excellent security. In the same way during severe economic crises you see large scale lay offs in public sectors like Greece. Security is a product of supply and demand.

Riskymove · 20-01-2015 3:13pm

fliball123 wrote: »

This all depends on what you constitute an emergency ..

The legislation defines it...it is mostly connected to the end of the bailout

It isn't defined on your opinion...or mine

Riskymove · 20-01-2015 3:14pm

jcon1913 wrote: »

Did I miss something? Did the Public Service get pay rises since 2011?

no they had cuts

fliball123 · 20-01-2015 3:16pm

robp wrote: »

In certain sector they have limited job security as do the public sector. You can lose your job in the public sector. I know people in the public sector who have lost their jobs. It happens.

It has cycles yes but at the moment there is excellent security. In the same way during severe economic crises you see large scale lay offs in public sectors like Greece. Security is a product of supply and demand.

As in contractors..they are not real public sector employees and we also have those in spades in the private sector

jcon1913 · 20-01-2015 3:19pm

Riskymove wrote: »

no they had cuts

Link here:

http://www.per.gov.ie/public-service-pay-policy/

Financial Emergency Measures in the Public Interest Act 2009

The purpose of the Financial Emergency Measures in the Public Interest Act 2009 was to introduce a number of financial emergency measures in the public interest. These measures were the making of a new deduction from the remuneration of public servants who are members of a public service pension scheme or who are entitled to a benefit under such a scheme or receive a payment in lieu of membership; provisions to allow public bodies to reduce the professional fees paid by them to external service providers; changes in the early childcare supplement and in the Farm Waste Management Scheme.

Financial Emergency Measures in the Public Interest (No 2) Act 2009

This Act provided for reductions in public service pay with effect from 1 January 2010. The rate of reduction varied by salary level but amounted to an average of around 6.5%.

Financial Emergency Measures in the Public Interest Act 2010

This Act provided for a further reduction to the remuneration of members of the Government. The Act also provided for a reduction to the amounts payable by way of pension to retired public servants.

Financial Emergency Measures in the Public Interest (Amendment) Act 2011

This Act provided for the reduction of judicial pay and pensions, following a constitutional amendment. The Act also further reduced the pay of members of the Government, whose members had voluntarily reduced their pay upon taking office, prior to this legislation coming into force.

Financial Emergency Measures in the Public Interest Act 2013

This Act provided for a reduction in remuneration for public servants earning more than €65,000, and a further reduction in the amount paid to those in receipt of a public service pension in excess of € 32,500. The Act also provided for a suspension of incremental progression until 2016 for all public servants, unless they are covered by a collective agreement modifying the terms of the incremental suspension which has been registered with the Labour Relations Commission.

So................

The only people in the public service who took cuts after 2011 were those paid over €65,000.

fliball123 · 20-01-2015 3:20pm

Riskymove wrote: »

The legislation defines it...it is mostly connected to the end of the bailout

It isn't defined on your opinion...or mine

Risky there has yet to be any phucking investigation into how quantitative easing which is being currently introduced to the euro will impact on one of our main areas which significantly contribute to our recovery and that being our exports..Now ask yourself who is our main export partner? England..So what is the effect of a decreasing Euro while Sterling stays the same? Exports get more expensive meaning less of it..

yet someone as novel as myself when it comes to economics can see clearly that we are not out of the woods and infact the ECB/Trioka by using the easing methods are going to stiffle our Economy..yet phuckwit houwlin thinks yeah pay rises for all the lads the trough is back in business baby.

I am not saying no payrises indefinitely but until we stop borrowing for the day to day we should not be borrowing to pay the ps higher wage..

K-9 · 20-01-2015 3:20pm

fliball123 wrote: »

Is it just me or is the timing of this a spin to get Labour back some of their core public sector votes..My biggest gripe over this is not one political or media outlet have asked the relevant question about this injustice if it goes ahead. That question being.

Where the phuck are you getting the money for pay rises when we are still borrowing 8 billion this year and we are over 200billion in debt. Mr Howlin please outline what taxes I , my kids and grand kids will have to pay for this payrise?

fliball123 wrote: »

And Jesus wept in the private sector what goes on is you are in a job one day and your redundant that next no choice about it but forcefully told you have no job...how terrible it is that the lushes in the ps are able to leave on their own terms.

Mod: Words like injustice and lushes really don't help the thread you created. Tone it down a bit please.

fliball123 wrote: »

Sorry yes it is..the reality is the private sector do not do soft landings when a company is borrowing and broke it smacks into a wall and the employees go with it..This person is saying how terrible it is that they are leaving on their own terms and yet fail to see how terrible it has been for those in the private sector who have had no choice but to hit that wall and go on the dole...There is a correlation

Probably because if a company is insolvent it is illegal to trade and their isn't enough income to meet outgoings. Countries don't really come under that criteria. Correlation does not equal causation, nor do you know that person doesn't feel sorry for others who lost their jobs. Your assuming they don't without any logical reason whatsoever.

robp · 20-01-2015 3:21pm

professore wrote: »

For someone who lived through the dotcom crash of '01 this is complete nonsense. IT has huge booms and busts. It's like saying the building sector back in '08.

My point is salary is a product of supply and demand. In my most extreme example (farming) no one makes the argument that farmers should accept lower pay due to the unlikeness they will lose their livelihoods. in their case it is an unavoidable characteristic of the industry just like teaching. Yet generally speaking salary and security are positively correlated. In the dotcom crash IT salaries would have gone down not up as predicted by fliball123's model.

fliball123 · 20-01-2015 3:24pm

K-9 wrote: »

Mod: Words like injustice and lushes really don't help the thread you created. Tone it down a bit please.

Probably because if a company is insolvent it is illegal to trade and their isn't enough income to meet outgoings. Countries don't really come under that criteria. Correlation does not equal causation, nor do you know that person doesn't feel sorry for others who lost their jobs. Your assuming they don't without any logical reason whatsoever.

Ehh this person is trying to make out that it is so bad that people in the PS are leaving to the private sector for better salaries , when the private sector over the course of the bust were up to a rate of 3/4 small companies going to the wall each week..

So that response is to tell the poster to cop on and live in the real world where there were very very few forced redundancies in the public sector, all were voluntary with lump sums and parachute payments a plenty

barneystinson · 20-01-2015 3:32pm

Riskymove wrote: »

articles are relating to 2011

Articles published in 2011, based on data from 2008/09/10...

Godge · 20-01-2015 3:34pm

fliball123 wrote: »

This all depends on what you constitute an emergency ..

The debt going up month after month
Debt to GDP going up month after month
And still borrowing 8 billion this year...to me and any other sane person paying for the above this is a phucking emergency and how those phuckwit Howlin deal with it..by increasing the borrowing to pay payrises to on average, or by mean or median one of highest paid sectors in the OCED ...

Yet the likes of the quantitative easing effects that are coming have not even been taken into consideration by this phuckwit and will make growth in our economy a lot harder as our main export market England sterling will remain the same and the Euro will plummet further making this more expensive and until we understand the downfall from this, decisions such as ps payrises should not even be contemplated

Wow, so full of wrongs, this post is.

(1) The debt has always gone up, since the beginning, except for one or two years in the 1990s when we ran a surplus
(2) The debt to GDP ratio may have peaked in 2014 and will peak (if not) in 2015, we are just waiting on GDP figures to know which it is
(3) From the budget speech: "Total general government revenue will be €65.2 billion in 2015 and total general government expenditure will be €70.5 billion", that is €5.2 bn, much less than the €8 bn.
(4) You are right that quantitative easing will see the Euro fall against Sterling, but you are 100% wrong that this is bad news for exporters. It will make our exporters more competitive and it will cost less for sterling consumers to buy our goods.

Your rant is so 2010.

Galwayguy35 · 20-01-2015 3:34pm

barneystinson wrote: »

In what parts of the private sector have wage rates fallen by 15-20%?

In many cases they felll by 100% when people lost their jobs, in many other cases people had to take wage cuts to keep their jobs, difference was we just got on with it to keep working.

Just because it didn't make the news as much doesn't mean it didn't happen.

jcon1913 · 20-01-2015 3:34pm

barneystinson wrote: »

Articles published in 2011, based on data from 2008/09/10...

Have you more up to date data / articles / links to prove that the position has changed since 2011?

The point being that public servants are paid too much in relation to their private sector colleagues and relative to the pay gap between public servants and private sector employees in the rest of the EU. To give public servants a further rise now will only increase the gap further.

Godge · 20-01-2015 3:36pm

jcon1913 wrote: »

Link here:

http://www.per.gov.ie/public-service-pay-policy/

Financial Emergency Measures in the Public Interest Act 2009

The purpose of the Financial Emergency Measures in the Public Interest Act 2009 was to introduce a number of financial emergency measures in the public interest. These measures were the making of a new deduction from the remuneration of public servants who are members of a public service pension scheme or who are entitled to a benefit under such a scheme or receive a payment in lieu of membership; provisions to allow public bodies to reduce the professional fees paid by them to external service providers; changes in the early childcare supplement and in the Farm Waste Management Scheme.

Financial Emergency Measures in the Public Interest (No 2) Act 2009

This Act provided for reductions in public service pay with effect from 1 January 2010. The rate of reduction varied by salary level but amounted to an average of around 6.5%.

Financial Emergency Measures in the Public Interest Act 2010

This Act provided for a further reduction to the remuneration of members of the Government. The Act also provided for a reduction to the amounts payable by way of pension to retired public servants.

Financial Emergency Measures in the Public Interest (Amendment) Act 2011

This Act provided for the reduction of judicial pay and pensions, following a constitutional amendment. The Act also further reduced the pay of members of the Government, whose members had voluntarily reduced their pay upon taking office, prior to this legislation coming into force.

Financial Emergency Measures in the Public Interest Act 2013

This Act provided for a reduction in remuneration for public servants earning more than €65,000, and a further reduction in the amount paid to those in receipt of a public service pension in excess of € 32,500. The Act also provided for a suspension of incremental progression until 2016 for all public servants, unless they are covered by a collective agreement modifying the terms of the incremental suspension which has been registered with the Labour Relations Commission.

So................

The only people in the public service who took cuts after 2011 were those paid over €65,000.

Strictly speaking, there was an increase in working hours for all public servants, so part-time public servants had a pay-cut if they remained on the same hours.

jcon1913 · 20-01-2015 3:38pm

Godge wrote: »

Strictly speaking, there was an increase in working hours for all public servants, so part-time public servants had a pay-cut if they remained on the same hours.

Fair point, I omitted that part, but in my defence that is a small cut percentage wise, no?

barneystinson · 20-01-2015 3:42pm

jcon1913 wrote: »

Link here:

http://www.per.gov.ie/public-service-pay-policy/

Financial Emergency Measures in the Public Interest Act 2009

The purpose of the Financial Emergency Measures in the Public Interest Act 2009 was to introduce a number of financial emergency measures in the public interest. These measures were the making of a new deduction from the remuneration of public servants who are members of a public service pension scheme or who are entitled to a benefit under such a scheme or receive a payment in lieu of membership; provisions to allow public bodies to reduce the professional fees paid by them to external service providers; changes in the early childcare supplement and in the Farm Waste Management Scheme.

Financial Emergency Measures in the Public Interest (No 2) Act 2009

This Act provided for reductions in public service pay with effect from 1 January 2010. The rate of reduction varied by salary level but amounted to an average of around 6.5%.

Financial Emergency Measures in the Public Interest Act 2010

This Act provided for a further reduction to the remuneration of members of the Government. The Act also provided for a reduction to the amounts payable by way of pension to retired public servants.

Financial Emergency Measures in the Public Interest (Amendment) Act 2011

This Act provided for the reduction of judicial pay and pensions, following a constitutional amendment. The Act also further reduced the pay of members of the Government, whose members had voluntarily reduced their pay upon taking office, prior to this legislation coming into force.

Financial Emergency Measures in the Public Interest Act 2013

This Act provided for a reduction in remuneration for public servants earning more than €65,000, and a further reduction in the amount paid to those in receipt of a public service pension in excess of € 32,500. The Act also provided for a suspension of incremental progression until 2016 for all public servants, unless they are covered by a collective agreement modifying the terms of the incremental suspension which has been registered with the Labour Relations Commission.

So................

The only people in the public service who took cuts after 2011 were those paid over €65,000.

Do the figures on which your reports are based, include the first round of pay cuts though? They kicked in in 2010, and at least one of your links uses 2009 figures.

FreudianSlippers · 20-01-2015 3:42pm

Godge wrote: »

Wow, so full of wrongs, this post is.

(1) The debt has always gone up, since the beginning, except for one or two years in the 1990s when we ran a surplus
(2) The debt to GDP ratio may have peaked in 2014 and will peak (if not) in 2015, we are just waiting on GDP figures to know which it is
(3) From the budget speech: "Total general government revenue will be €65.2 billion in 2015 and total general government expenditure will be €70.5 billion", that is €5.2 bn, much less than the €8 bn.
(4) You are right that quantitative easing will see the Euro fall against Sterling, but you are 100% wrong that this is bad news for exporters. It will make our exporters more competitive and it will cost less for sterling consumers to buy our goods.

Your rant is so 2010.

Not to go down "that" route, but doesn't the €5.2bn deficit rely on UÉ being off the books?

Godge · 20-01-2015 3:44pm

fliball123 wrote: »

Ehh this person is trying to make out that it is so bad that people in the PS are leaving to the private sector for better salaries , when the private sector over the course of the bust were up to a rate of 3/4 small companies going to the wall each week..

So that response is to tell the poster to cop on and live in the real world where there were very very few forced redundancies in the public sector, all were voluntary with lump sums and parachute payments a plenty

You are talking about 2008 when you talk about 3/4 companies going to the wall each week. Employment has been going up for he last two years.

As for pay in the private sector, loads and loads of companies have given pay increases in the last year. Industrial Relations News recently listed 100 companies that they know of that brought in pay deals in 2014 ranging from the likes of Leo Pharma (6% over 39 months), Micro Bio (8%, some backdated to 2013), Pfizer (4% over 18 months) in the chemical manufacturing sector through others like Hasbro, Analog, Glen Dimplex in other areas of manufacturing, to Kingspan, Murphy International and Murray Timber in construction to Britvic, Lakeland Dairies, Glanbia in Food, to Arnotts, Boots, Dunnes and Tesco in retailing to many others like Eircom and Irish Life.

Pay rises are now the norm in the private sector - where do you think all the extra income tax is coming from????

You really need to lose the 2008 vibe and get with the times.

FreudianSlippers · 20-01-2015 3:44pm

jcon1913 wrote: »

Link here:

http://www.per.gov.ie/public-service-pay-policy/

Financial Emergency Measures in the Public Interest Act 2009

The purpose of the Financial Emergency Measures in the Public Interest Act 2009 was to introduce a number of financial emergency measures in the public interest. These measures were the making of a new deduction from the remuneration of public servants who are members of a public service pension scheme or who are entitled to a benefit under such a scheme or receive a payment in lieu of membership; provisions to allow public bodies to reduce the professional fees paid by them to external service providers; changes in the early childcare supplement and in the Farm Waste Management Scheme.

Financial Emergency Measures in the Public Interest (No 2) Act 2009

This Act provided for reductions in public service pay with effect from 1 January 2010. The rate of reduction varied by salary level but amounted to an average of around 6.5%.

Financial Emergency Measures in the Public Interest Act 2010

This Act provided for a further reduction to the remuneration of members of the Government. The Act also provided for a reduction to the amounts payable by way of pension to retired public servants.

Financial Emergency Measures in the Public Interest (Amendment) Act 2011

This Act provided for the reduction of judicial pay and pensions, following a constitutional amendment. The Act also further reduced the pay of members of the Government, whose members had voluntarily reduced their pay upon taking office, prior to this legislation coming into force.

Financial Emergency Measures in the Public Interest Act 2013

This Act provided for a reduction in remuneration for public servants earning more than €65,000, and a further reduction in the amount paid to those in receipt of a public service pension in excess of € 32,500. The Act also provided for a suspension of incremental progression until 2016 for all public servants, unless they are covered by a collective agreement modifying the terms of the incremental suspension which has been registered with the Labour Relations Commission.

So................

The only people in the public service who took cuts after 2011 were those paid over €65,000.

Isn't there also the PRD pension levy on top of that, further reducing the disposable income?

dialemma · 20-01-2015 3:46pm

jcon1913 wrote: »

The public sector is still way overpaid when compared to other EU countries. Maybe keep the Health service pay bills down? Something has to be done to keep the services without saddling the taxpayer with more debt.

Public Servants pay tax too! just a point to note, they include nurses, teachers, general clerical and administrative staff etc. I don't think anyone here can dispute the fact that a graduate nurse is paid peanuts

dialemma · 20-01-2015 3:49pm

fliball123 wrote: »

Sorry yes it is..the reality is the private sector do not do soft landings when a company is borrowing and broke it smacks into a wall and the employees go with it..This person is saying how terrible it is that they are leaving on their own terms and yet fail to see how terrible it has been for those in the private sector who have had no choice but to hit that wall and go on the dole...There is a correlation

Fliball, if your 'private' company hits a wall and you end up redundant - you can always apply for a job in the public sector, I'm sure they'd be delighted to take you!

Godge · 20-01-2015 3:49pm

jcon1913 wrote: »

Fair point, I omitted that part, but in my defence that is a small cut percentage wise, no?

it was a 2.25 hours increase, so if you were on a 35-hour week, your hourly rate dropped by 6.4%.

If you were working say 20 hours a week, your pay dropped by around 6%.

Not a small cut.

jcon1913 · 20-01-2015 3:49pm

barneystinson wrote: »

Do the figures on which your reports are based, include the first round of pay cuts though?

The poster I replied to ( actually it was you Barney! ) was trying to make out that there had been cuts since 2011, thereby rendering information from 2011 redundant.

There haven't been ( apparently ) because if there were you'd be on here with links to articles where we could see where the cuts were.:pac::pac::pac:

Do you have links to where we can see that there were cuts in public service pay since 2011? If you do let's see them.

Otherwise articles based on info relevant in 2011 are still relevant, IMHO.

So apart from people in the public service having to work longer hours there have been no cuts to public service pay since 2011. And articles saying that there is a bigger gap between public servants pay and private sector pay in Ireland must be right.

Over to you Barney, have you anything to back up your opinion?

fliball123 · 20-01-2015 3:50pm

Godge wrote: »

Wow, so full of wrongs, this post is.

(1) The debt has always gone up, since the beginning, except for one or two years in the 1990s when we ran a surplus
(2) The debt to GDP ratio may have peaked in 2014 and will peak (if not) in 2015, we are just waiting on GDP figures to know which it is
(3) From the budget speech: "Total general government revenue will be €65.2 billion in 2015 and total general government expenditure will be €70.5 billion", that is €5.2 bn, much less than the €8 bn.
(4) You are right that quantitative easing will see the Euro fall against Sterling, but you are 100% wrong that this is bad news for exporters. It will make our exporters more competitive and it will cost less for sterling consumers to buy our goods.

Your rant is so 2010.

So hang on there now...
(1) Have we ever been this much in debt? NO
(2) So in the year that our deficit to GDP is supposedly according to you will peak we should push the boundaries a bit more and borrow more for a pay rise for the public sector..This insight without any proper thought of how quantitative easing is going to feck up our exports to the UK? Really???
(3) Does this include the extra spend that always happen for example the hundreds of million needed to plug the hole in the health service?
(4) does it not mean that every Pound we would of got from the UK is now worth less?

The Muppet · 20-01-2015 3:52pm

fliball123 wrote: »

Sorry yes it is..the reality is the private sector do not do soft landings when a company is borrowing and broke it smacks into a wall and the employees go with it..This person is saying how terrible it is that they are leaving on their own terms and yet fail to see how terrible it has been for those in the private sector who have had no choice but to hit that wall and go on the dole...There is a correlation

The point you are missing is that he said they are leaving for better paid jobs in the private sector which blows a hole in the argument that the public sector is better paid that the private sector.

I really doubt any one here would want their public services run as a private company where the end user would pay the full cost of the service they are using.

Proposed Public sector pay rises

Comments