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Stephen Fry on confronting god after death

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    #182
    UCDVet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,894 ✭✭✭UCDVet


    Grayson wrote: »
    Then he's still a dick. The evidence still points towards God being evil, not good. And if you say that maybe God is good but we just don't understand, then that makes him a dick too. Why torture humans by putting them through hell on earth and not allow them to understand it. That's dickish. It's like me placing electrodes on your testicles and telling you that the reason is written in a complex code.

    That's one possible explanation, sure.

    But the argument shouldn't be 'Bad things happen, therefore there is no God'. It should be, 'Bad things happen, therefore there is no all powerful God that conforms to my own understanding of Good and Bad'.


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    #183
    danrua01
    Registered Users Posts: 405 ✭✭danrua01


    RobertKK wrote: »
    Surely one would argue God is far more restrained than humans, don't we hear all the comlaints about 'rules' in religion.
    Isn't it the unrestrained humans in the bible that reject God that causes the bad stuff to happen?

    I don't accept, believe, or follow God, but you say he is more restrained than I am:

    God's death toll = a sh*tload.
    My death toll, or evil actions = 0.


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    #184
    RobertKK
    Registered Users Posts: 33,730 ✭✭✭✭RobertKK


    Ghost Buster wrote: »
    And how did this needy sulky git react to a few tribes rejection of him?
    Remind me?
    Was in in the way of a wise all powerful being or a sulky vain human way?


    Well there was the covenant with God, he had brought them out of Egypt, even if they went around in circles for 40 years, they rejected him and they were thrown out of Israel for a long long time.
    The Jews obviously appreciate him, they would love to rebuild the temple that was destroyed near 2,000 years ago, except a mosque is in the way...


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    #185
    Ghost Buster
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,172 ✭✭✭Ghost Buster


    UCDVet wrote: »
    That's one possible explanation, sure.

    But the argument shouldn't be 'Bad things happen, therefore there is no God'. It should be, 'Bad things happen, therefore there is no all powerful God that conforms to my own understanding of Good and Bad'.

    Well then hes crap at communicating with the beings he loves and created in his own image and all that. very sloppy for an uberbring


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    #186
    Spanish Eyes
    Registered Users Posts: 15,906 ✭✭✭✭Spanish Eyes


    God did one good thing that impressed me, and showed his sociability.

    He turned the water into wine at the marriage feast of Cana, and ensured that everyone had a great time at de weddin.

    On that basis, he is welcome to my parties. The booze always runs out before it should.


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    #187
    Ghost Buster
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,172 ✭✭✭Ghost Buster


    RobertKK wrote: »
    Well there was the covenant with God, he had brought them out of Egypt, even if they went around in circles for 40 years, they rejected him and they were thrown out of Israel for a long long time.
    The Jews obviously appreciate him, they would love to rebuild the temple that was destroyed near 2,000 years ago, except a mosque is in the way...

    And was this before or after he flooded the entire planet drowning all but a handful of people cos he was having a very very human tantrum?


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    #188
    FunLover18
    Registered Users Posts: 6,793 ✭✭✭FunLover18


    bb87 wrote: »
    Typical Fry, his unwillingness to explore what Genesis has to say as to why there is such suffering and evil, highlights his wilful ignorance and dishonesty.

    He will deny Satan exists as an active evil force in the world, whilst perfectly describing his existence in the world. Why does Fry see more of Satan than God? Says a lot about him, really.

    Blessed are the pure in heart; for they shall see God. Maybe Fry better stop lusting after young men and let go of this bitterness clearly revealed in this clip. Then he will see more of the one true God.

    This man needs prayers..

    You mean the bitterness he feels because of the evil acts of discrimination and hatred piled on him and on other homosexuals by "pure of heart" christians?


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    #189
    UCDVet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,894 ✭✭✭UCDVet


    Ghost Buster wrote: »
    Well then hes crap at communicating with the beings he loves and created in his own image and all that. very sloppy for an uberbring

    Absolutely. But there is a world of difference between, 'God hasn't communicated with me, therefore God doesn't exist' and 'God hasn't communicated with me, therefore a God that has communicated with me doesn't exist'.


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    #190
    Ghost Buster
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,172 ✭✭✭Ghost Buster


    UCDVet wrote: »
    Absolutely. But there is a world of difference between, 'God hasn't communicated with me, therefore God doesn't exist' and 'God hasn't communicated with me, therefore a God that has communicated with me doesn't exist'.

    Thats not the only reason why there is absolutely no reason to believe in any gods.


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    #191
    The_Valeyard
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,452 ✭✭✭✭The_Valeyard


    shruikan2553 wrote: »
    Is this to become one of those threads where people complain about any criticism Christianity gets while claiming every other religion is protected and then complain about atheists?


    No this is one of those threads where people start off by claiming they are atheists and expect medals.


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    #192
    UCDVet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,894 ✭✭✭UCDVet


    Ghost Buster wrote: »
    Thats not the only reason why there is absolutely no reason to believe in any gods.

    My point is:
    1.) That evil existing (child with leukaemia) does not disprove the existence of God.
    2.) That a lack of communication with God, does not disprove the existence of God.

    I'm not asserting that God exists.


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    #193
    haveringchick
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,380 ✭✭✭haveringchick


    danrua01 wrote: »
    You don't need to worry about it, I'm sure both of them know enough to get on with their lives. He's bipolar, he's not a rapist or a murder... Are you saying that people with mental illnesses shouldn't be allowed to be in relationships?

    I don't know why but though I wish them hearty congrats I am reminded firstly of Wilde and Bosie and, unfortunately, Mrs Merton asking Debbie Magee what first first attracted her to her fabulously wealthy much older husband.


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    #194
    _Jumper_
    Closed Accounts Posts: 150 ✭✭_Jumper_


    Wha? What do ya not agree with OP?


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    #195
    Maximus Alexander
    Registered Users Posts: 13,080 ✭✭✭✭Maximus Alexander


    UCDVet wrote: »
    My point is:
    1.) That evil existing (child with leukaemia) does not disprove the existence of God.
    2.) That a lack of communication with God, does not disprove the existence of God.

    I'm not asserting that God exists.

    Russell's teapot will offer you a good explanation of why these two points are both meaningless and irrelevant.


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    #196
    The_Valeyard
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,452 ✭✭✭✭The_Valeyard


    Id say Mods must bang there heads against the keyboards when they see these threads coming.


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    #197
    Akrasia
    Registered Users Posts: 22,243 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    chrysagon wrote: »
    Fry has had a few digs at Christians, irionic that hes a jew.
    And anyway, he has a point,Why would god if he /she existed create a world with such misery.

    The Jewish god is the same god Christians believe in


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    #198
    UCDVet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,894 ✭✭✭UCDVet


    Maximus Alexander wrote: »
    Russell's teapot will offer you a good explanation of why these two points are both meaningless and irrelevant.

    I'm afraid I disagree completely. 'Russell's teapot' does not invalidate my point in any way. People were actively offering these as proof that God does not exist. That's simply wrong.

    Russell's teapot simply says, 'If you want me to believe in God, the burden of proof is on you'. That's totally fine. I'm not disagreeing with that. But there is a huge difference between, 'You have provided no evidence' and 'I can prove that thing you mention is wrong'.

    There are lots of nonsensical things I can say exist. I have a magical, talking, flying dog in my house!

    It's fine to say that I'm full of crap, or that I'm ridiculous or that you won't believe me until I provide proof. But it's STILL wrong to say you can disprove it, unless you can actually disprove it. Pointing out that I have no evidence and that it is utter nonsense to even consider if fine though.


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    #199
    K4t
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,362 ✭✭✭K4t


    The_Valeyard wrote: »
    Id say Mods must bang there heads against the keyboards when they see these threads coming.

    If they do care, it is because of Religion, not Atheism.


    It's not as if the Atheists can threaten blasphemy laws.


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    #200
    Grayson
    Registered Users Posts: 16,143 ✭✭✭✭Grayson


    UCDVet wrote: »
    That's one possible explanation, sure.

    But the argument shouldn't be 'Bad things happen, therefore there is no God'. It should be, 'Bad things happen, therefore there is no all powerful God that conforms to my own understanding of Good and Bad'.

    see, if that's the case then it's not God but rather god. The capitals are used to describe the all knowing, all powerful God of the bible. Most western religious philosophy has been trying to determine the characteristics of God. Anslem described him as "that of which there can be nothing greater than". Descartes described him as "infinite perfection" (Since infinity and perfection are the only two things we have no experience of but yet we can still conceive of them).
    Once morals are injected into it then God has to be infinitely good. And that's the line that's generally used. We always hear about His "infinite love" for humanity. Hatred etc are not attributes that can be attributed to god since they are imperfections.
    Now you might say that that we're marking the assumption that hatred is an imperfection. If it's not an imperfection than God would have to to possess it and He would have to possess it at an infinite level. God would have to be the embodiment of hatred. That's not a nice God and therefore God would be a dick.
    Or you're right and God is actually god. In which case god can be a dick because god isn't perfect.


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    #201
    Maximus Alexander
    Registered Users Posts: 13,080 ✭✭✭✭Maximus Alexander


    UCDVet wrote: »
    I'm afraid I disagree completely. 'Russell's teapot' does not invalidate my point in any way. People were actively offering these as proof that God does not exist. That's simply wrong.

    Russell's teapot simply says, 'If you want me to believe in God, the burden of proof is on you'. That's totally fine. I'm not disagreeing with that. But there is a huge difference between, 'You have provided no evidence' and 'I can prove that thing you mention is wrong'.

    The idea of 'disproving' God is meaningless. He is unfalsifiable.

    You could make the argument that anything which is unfalsifiable doesn't exist, because it has no effect on the physical world.


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    #202
    UCDVet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,894 ✭✭✭UCDVet


    Maximus Alexander wrote: »
    The idea of 'disproving' God is meaningless. He is unfalsifiable.

    You could make the argument that anything which is unfalsifiable doesn't exist, because it has no effect on the physical world.

    Yes - so anyone presenting an argument disproving God is presenting a meaningless argument. Which is why I felt the need to disagree.


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    #203
    Grayson
    Registered Users Posts: 16,143 ✭✭✭✭Grayson


    The_Valeyard wrote: »
    No this is one of those threads where people start off by claiming they are atheists and expect medals.

    better than saying you're a Christian and expecting eternal paradise.

    btw as unlikely as I am to ever get a medal for anything, my expectation is probably more realistic. :)


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    #204
    Maximus Alexander
    Registered Users Posts: 13,080 ✭✭✭✭Maximus Alexander


    UCDVet wrote: »
    Yes - so anyone presenting an argument disproving God is presenting a meaningless argument. Which is why I felt the need to disagree.

    Fair enough, I must have misunderstood what you were trying to say.


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    #205
    Grayson
    Registered Users Posts: 16,143 ✭✭✭✭Grayson


    UCDVet wrote: »
    Yes - so anyone presenting an argument disproving God is presenting a meaningless argument. Which is why I felt the need to disagree.

    I actually liked my philosophy of religion courses (Until Hegel. Hegel was such a fecking wanker)

    Some of them are very simple and beautiful arguments. they're wrong but the simple logic in them was actually quite nice.


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    #206
    K4t
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,362 ✭✭✭K4t


    UCDVet wrote: »

    Russell's teapot simply says, 'If you want me to believe in God, the burden of proof is on you'. That's totally fine.
    Would you like to live in a world where a most of the world believe that a teapot orbits the sun in space? Would you like if laws were made based on that teapot's imagined beliefs? Would you like that governments are lobbied and influenced by that teapot's imagined beliefs? Because that is what you are saying is "totally fine".


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    #207
    haveringchick
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,380 ✭✭✭haveringchick


    The_Valeyard wrote: »
    Id say Mods must bang there heads against the keyboards when they see these threads coming.

    The threads and some of yhe posters are as repetitive and predictable as the sunrise. Eventually the thread burns itself out and another starts. It seems that hope springs eternal within the atheists hearts that they will somehow succeed in disproving the existence of God. It must be exhausting and how they maintain such enthusiasm for thinking about and describing something they claim doesn't exist is aastonishing. But you will find the same posters on any thread which has even the remotest potential for them to have a go at faith or belief in a higher power. And repeating themselves over and over to no avail. Must get very frustrating.


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    #208
    B.A._Baracus
    Registered Users Posts: 11,179 ✭✭✭✭B.A._Baracus


    Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »
    The sooner more people start doing this the better, The world would be a much better if religion was wiped out.

    Oh really? I guess...
    - "religious nuts" created the nuclear bomb in the 1940's
    - Hiter wasn't really an athiest. God told him to kill millions of Jews?
    - North Korea isnt currently an athiest nation where religion is 'discouraged' - Nah, they are blinded by religion to hold people down?

    Look man, the world wouldnt be a better place without Religion. There would still be evil men. Sure even those who kill in the 'name' of their god (ahem, extreme muslims) would just be killing in the name of their country... or what ever they choose to hide behind.


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    #209
    ygolometsipe
    Registered Users Posts: 882 ✭✭✭ygolometsipe


    I decided to believe in God every second day of the week.
    That way i'm a constant disappointment, much like life!


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    #210
    AryaStark
    Registered Users Posts: 656 ✭✭✭AryaStark


    RobertKK wrote: »
    Read my post, read the earlier quoted bit from the prophet Jeremiah. Look at why baptism exists.

    It has nothing to do with what I believe or don't believe, it is there plain and clear in the bible, and plain and clear in baptism where one is baptised because they are seen to carry the original sin of Adam and Eve.

    Where did I post bone cancer in children is acceptable to me?
    Stephen Fry knows full well that Earth is not utopia but then acted like a fool and said he would reject heaven, ie a Utopian place where all is good.
    Rezident made a good point, Fry acts as if Earth is suppose to be a heaven. Earth is a place where good and bad exists. We can either accept and try and make it a better place, or be bitter as Fry was in that interview.
    We were given talent and soon we will cure all cancers as things like gene therapy advance.
    Some would argue God given talent...

    It is people who believe in god that make any real advances in medical science impossible i.e banning stem cell research and crying about people playing at being god.


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    #211
    UCDVet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,894 ✭✭✭UCDVet


    Grayson wrote: »
    see, if that's the case then it's not God but rather god. The capitals are used to describe the all knowing, all powerful God of the bible. Most western religious philosophy has been trying to determine the characteristics of God. Anslem described him as "that of which there can be nothing greater than". Descartes described him as "infinite perfection" (Since infinity and perfection are the only two things we have no experience of but yet we can still conceive of them).
    Once morals are injected into it then God has to be infinitely good. And that's the line that's generally used. We always hear about His "infinite love" for humanity. Hatred etc are not attributes that can be attributed to god since they are imperfections.
    Now you might say that that we're marking the assumption that hatred is an imperfection. If it's not an imperfection than God would have to to possess it and He would have to possess it at an infinite level. God would have to be the embodiment of hatred. That's not a nice God and therefore God would be a dick.
    Or you're right and God is actually god. In which case god can be a dick because god isn't perfect.

    I'm not sure that's true. If a being is both infinitely loving and infinitely hating, who knows how that would manifest itself?

    Besides, one of the most important parts of the Bible God is that we have eternity in the afterlife, right? So however many years we spend on Earth before we die is *infinitely* small compared to eternity. Maybe none of this life really matters. If I'm playing a video game and my character is suffering, am I suffering?

    Who knows how an all knowing, all powerful, eternal God would feel about our suffering for an infinitely small slice of time before our eternal afterlife?

    I certainly don't think we can reason about it with any certainty to the point where we could say with confidence that God cannot exist due to some deviation from what we expect.


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