Stephen Fry on confronting god after death

eviltwin · 31-01-2015 2:58pm

RobertKK wrote: »

The Jews according to the bible had a special covenant with God, when they broke it and turned away from God, the prophecy of Jeremiah 16 said they would be banished to lands they do not know, they would end up being hunted down, their bodies not buried, famine and suffering...but this was to happen before Israel would be restored.

Robert I know you like to quote passages from the bible as if that somehow adds more weight to your argument but it doesn't. The bible is just a book, it offers no explanation for how God our supposedly benevolent father allows his children to suffer. What kind of God allows that to happen and why? One that doesn't exist.

UCDVet · 31-01-2015 2:59pm

beer_hunter wrote: »

free will only explains people doing harm , it explains nothing for those who have harm done to them

Why? Because you say so?

I'm not trying to attack you, I'm genuinely asking. If we assume for a second that their is a God who values this concept of free will in individuals - why would we assume your interpretation of how free will should work is the same as Gods?

K4t · 31-01-2015 3:01pm

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

The sooner more people start doing this the better, The world would be a much better if religion was wiped out.

If there is a gates of heaven I'd sooner walk as far as possible in the opposite direction in search of a hell.

Venus In Furs wrote: »

I liked Stephen Fry until his sneery, dismissive comment about when people are offended.
The man has publicly taken offence at times himself so he should have added "... apart from when it offends ME" to that comment (often trotted out now by the "free speech at all costs" crowd).

Just to clarify something here, it is perfectly fine for Fry to be hypocritical if that is true (I don't really care). However, the 'Free Speech at all costs' crowd simply argue that neither offense or hypocrisy be legislated against through law. e.g. blasphemy law.

Venus In Furs · 31-01-2015 3:03pm

UCDVet wrote: »

Why? Because you say so?

No? Because it's the logical conclusion?

If a child gets leukaemia, how the utter fuq does free will come into it?

syklops · 31-01-2015 3:03pm

bb87 wrote: »

Typical Fry, his unwillingness to explore what Genesis has to say as to why there is such suffering and evil, highlights his wilful ignorance and dishonesty.

He will deny Satan exists as an active evil force in the world, whilst perfectly describing his existence in the world. Why does Fry see more of Satan than God? Says a lot about him, really.

Blessed are the pure in heart; for they shall see God. Maybe Fry better stop lusting after young men and let go of this bitterness clearly revealed in this clip. Then he will see more of the one true God.

This man needs prayers..

Stephen Fry, ignorant?

I've heard it all now.

Maximus Alexander · 31-01-2015 3:06pm

RobertKK wrote: »

If God exists, he would be your God too since he would have being behind the creation, and it would be a case of you having rejected your God whom you see as a prick...

And if his auntie had balls she'd be his uncle.

B_Wayne · 31-01-2015 3:11pm

padd b1975 wrote: »

It's not ideal, but if there's no other means available to have a family, then so be it.

Seems like your vision is much seedier. Wrong for gay man to marry gay man who is three years off being thirty. But if it's a man in need of a womb, that's fine.... What a warped world view you hold..

Grayson · 31-01-2015 3:12pm

RobertKK wrote: »

Read my post, read the earlier quoted bit from the prophet Jeremiah. Look at why baptism exists.

It has nothing to do with what I believe or don't believe, it is there plain and clear in the bible, and plain and clear in baptism where one is baptised because they are seen to carry the original sin of Adam and Eve.

Where did I post bone cancer in children is acceptable to me?
Stephen Fry knows full well that Earth is not utopia but then acted like a fool and said he would reject heaven, ie a Utopian place where all is good.
Rezident made a good point, Fry acts as if Earth is suppose to be a heaven. Earth is a place where good and bad exists. We can either accept and try and make it a better place, or be bitter as Fry was in that interview.
We were given talent and soon we will cure all cancers as things like gene therapy advance.
Some would argue God given talent...

You reject satan because satan is evil right?
Why not use the same criteria for God? If God commits evil then God is evil and is therefore no worse than satan.
The only thing satan did wrong that God hasn't was when he rejected God. (Although you could say he did when Jesus was on the cross and he said "Oh father, why have you forsaken me. Since Jesus was God, God was forsaking God).

Maximus Alexander · 31-01-2015 3:14pm

Folks you should know by now that there's no point arguing with bigots. Just leave them to scream into the void while the world leaves them behind.

Grayson · 31-01-2015 3:16pm

RobertKK wrote: »

What that God is vengeful, loving, forgiving?

A human can be all those.

So you're saying that there's no difference between God and a human when it comes to personality/ethics etc. In fact God would be more like an unrestrained human. Whereas we can rein in our worst impulses, God doesn't.

Baggy Trousers · 31-01-2015 3:21pm

Well said Mr Fry. Very intelligent man.

RobertKK · 31-01-2015 3:22pm

eviltwin wrote: »

Robert I know you like to quote passages from the bible as if that somehow adds more weight to your argument but it doesn't. The bible is just a book, it offers no explanation for how God our supposedly benevolent father allows his children to suffer. What kind of God allows that to happen and why? One that doesn't exist.

It is the book that the religion comes from, you can't just disregard it as if it is like any old book.
It says in Genesis that the suffering was allowed when Adam and Eve brought death into the world through their disobedience towards God.
The bible offers no explanation if you don't see it as relevant to the religion. `

Ghost Buster · 31-01-2015 3:22pm

bb87 wrote: »

Typical Fry, his unwillingness to explore what Genesis has to say as to why there is such suffering and evil, highlights his wilful ignorance and dishonesty.

He will deny Satan exists as an active evil force in the world, whilst perfectly describing his existence in the world. Why does Fry see more of Satan than God? Says a lot about him, really.

Blessed are the pure in heart; for they shall see God. Maybe Fry better stop lusting after young men and let go of this bitterness clearly revealed in this clip. Then he will see more of the one true God.

This man needs prayers..

I would think Fry knows genesis rather well but realises its bollox.
Which nullifies the rest of your ridiculous post.

Baggy Trousers · 31-01-2015 3:22pm

I do remember thinking as a kid that I was glad the Greek gods weren't real.
After watching films like Jason and the Argonauts, they just seemed like utter pricks!

Now I know none of the so called "gods" are real and I have to say life is simpler and more enjoyable as a result.

Ghost Buster · 31-01-2015 3:24pm

bb87 wrote: »

Satan tells his followers to kill their children, and people like you happily follow it. You know, abortion and all.

The record (bible) shows that God has killed substantially more folk than the other guy.

Ghost Buster · 31-01-2015 3:26pm

RobertKK wrote: »

Stephen Fry acts the idiot.
He was talking about a Christian God, but then the supposed intellectual, disregarded a part of the bible where it says how evil entered the world.
Evil according to the book of Genesis entered the world when Adam and Eve disobeyed God, and the price for the disobedience was death was brought into the world, and Adam and Eve allowed evil into the world.

Stephen Fry ignored the bible so he could just have his rant.

He didn't address in his rant about meeting God, how we can choose good or evil, or that by knowing evil, it allows us to know and appreciate what is good.

Also Stephen Fry said if heaven did exist he didn't want to go to heaven, indicating he wants to reside in hell, which is just being stupid for the sake of it.

Anyway I will be watching the Superbowl rather than wasting time on Stephen Fry who thinksthat is heaven did somehow exist he would even get the chance to say directly to God 'How dare you'...

The one flaw in your post is that Fry has the cop on to realise that its all nonsense. So why would he address any of what you suggest??!

UCDVet · 31-01-2015 3:27pm

Venus In Furs wrote: »

No? Because it's the logical conclusion?

If a child gets leukaemia, how the utter fuq does free will come into it?

It's amazing how many people think their conclusions are logical, when they aren't. It's also entirely possible to have a logically sound argument that is completely wrong, given a faulty premise. If you'd like to submit your logical argument, I'm sure other people would be interested in having a look - but it's not really fair to expect everyone to just, inherently know or accept your conclusion.

I feel like you're presuming to know a lot about how God would function and how he would operate his rule/control over us. I'm not saying there is a God, but I don't see much credibility to the argument that there isn't a God because, 'Obviously, if there were a God X, Y and Z would be different'.

Maybe God doesn't operate on the level of an individual? Maybe freewill applies to humanity as a whole? Maybe suffering is part of God's plan? Have you ever played a video game where your character can't get hurt or die? It's fun for a few minutes, but then it's tiresome. Maybe God exists but is a jerk? Maybe that child *would* have been the next Hitler, and God is pre-emptively saving BILLIONS OF LIVES by giving that kid Leukaemia? Maybe, in a past life, that kid was evil. Or maybe God is strictly hands-off in the mortal realm. If I had an ant collection, sure, I'd 'Create the world' as they know it. And I would have powers they couldn't conceive of. I could certainly kill them at will, destroy their world, or perform amazing god-like acts on their behalf. But I'm not going to stop them from fighting while I'm at work. Maybe God's been doing something else for the last million years or something?

Baggy Trousers · 31-01-2015 3:29pm

Does anyone get the sense that if people read these threads in say 100 years, they will be flabbergasted by some of the rhetoric on both sides?

I think they will think we had way too much time on our hands!

RobertKK · 31-01-2015 3:29pm

Grayson wrote: »

So you're saying that there's no difference between God and a human when it comes to personality/ethics etc. In fact God would be more like an unrestrained human. Whereas we can rein in our worst impulses, God doesn't.

Surely one would argue God is far more restrained than humans, don't we hear all the comlaints about 'rules' in religion.
Isn't it the unrestrained humans in the bible that reject God that causes the bad stuff to happen?

Autonomous Cowherd · 31-01-2015 3:29pm

There often seems to be a very limited view of what ''God'' is. The Bible - which is the cosmogony of one tribe, and which happened for political reasons to become the most popular ''book on God'' in the west - portrays a particular kind of Abrahamical god. Same with the Koran and Talmud and so on. There are many other books on ''God'' or the idea of an inexplicable force behind the world of appearances, some of them quite ancient like the Tao Teh Ching, or Vigyana Bhairava Tantra, or the Gnostic Gospels, or the works of Hermes Trismegistus, and many evolving ideas presented in the literature of various disciplines throughout the world. Many ideas of ''God'' belong to oral shamanic traditions, which could arguably be the primal well-spring of our very idea of God. I find it quite limiting that people argue about God's existence based on limited literature, based on a limited tradition (Christianity for example) which like most religious traditions has been modified/warped due to political/cultural changes and aims. The idea of some unknown or even unknowable substratum that has shaped the complex existence we experience, even pure maths for example, cannot be proved or disproved using reference to one limited middle eastern text. Surely?

RobertKK · 31-01-2015 3:31pm

UCDVet wrote: »

It's amazing how many people think their conclusions are logical, when they aren't. It's also entirely possible to have a logically sound argument that is completely wrong, given a faulty premise. If you'd like to submit your logical argument, I'm sure other people would be interested in having a look - but it's not really fair to expect everyone to just, inherently know or accept your conclusion.

I feel like you're presuming to know a lot about how God would function and how he would operate his rule/control over us. I'm not saying there is a God, but I don't see much credibility to the argument that there isn't a God because, 'Obviously, if there were a God X, Y and Z would be different'.

Maybe God doesn't operate on the level of an individual? Maybe freewill applies to humanity as a whole? Maybe suffering is part of God's plan? Have you ever played a video game where your character can't get hurt or die? It's fun for a few minutes, but then it's tiresome. Maybe God exists but is a jerk? Maybe that child *would* have been the next Hitler, and God is pre-emptively saving BILLIONS OF LIVES by giving that kid Leukaemia? Maybe, in a past life, that kid was evil. Or maybe God is strictly hands-off in the mortal realm. If I had an ant collection, sure, I'd 'Create the world' as they know it. And I would have powers they couldn't conceive of. I could certainly kill them at will, destroy their world, or perform amazing god-like acts on their behalf. But I'm not going to stop them from fighting while I'm at work. Maybe God's been doing something else for the last million years or something?

Probably busy playing Sim City elsewhere in the Universe.

eviltwin · 31-01-2015 3:31pm

RobertKK wrote: »

It is the book that the religion comes from, you can't just disregard it as if it is like any old book.
It says in Genesis that the suffering was allowed when Adam and Eve brought death into the world through their disobedience towards God.
The bible offers no explanation if you don't see it as relevant to the religion. `

None of which explains why God stands idly by and allows suffering to happen

Grayson · 31-01-2015 3:32pm

UCDVet wrote: »

Maybe God doesn't operate on the level of an individual? Maybe freewill applies to humanity as a whole? Maybe suffering is part of God's plan? Have you ever played a video game where your character can't get hurt or die? It's fun for a few minutes, but then it's tiresome. Maybe God exists but is a jerk? Maybe that child *would* have been the next Hitler, and God is pre-emptively saving BILLIONS OF LIVES by giving that kid Leukaemia? Maybe, in a past life, that kid was evil. Or maybe God is strictly hands-off in the mortal realm. If I had an ant collection, sure, I'd 'Create the world' as they know it. And I would have powers they couldn't conceive of. I could certainly kill them at will, destroy their world, or perform amazing god-like acts on their behalf. But I'm not going to stop them from fighting while I'm at work. Maybe God's been doing something else for the last million years or something?

Then he's still a dick. The evidence still points towards God being evil, not good. And if you say that maybe God is good but we just don't understand, then that makes him a dick too. Why torture humans by putting them through hell on earth and not allow them to understand it. That's dickish. It's like me placing electrodes on your testicles and telling you that the reason is written in a complex code.

Jim Jeffries has a line where he says it's stupid when people say God is mysterious. tsunami kills thousands and people say "God moves in mysterious ways". If you cam home and found me assaulting your wife you wouldn't let me off if I said "Hey, I told you I was mysterious"

K4t · 31-01-2015 3:32pm

Baggy Trousers wrote: »

Does anyone get the sense that if people read these threads in say 100 years, they will be flabbergasted by some of the rhetoric on both sides?

You forget that people were saying what you are saying now 100 years ago..

UCDVet · 31-01-2015 3:33pm

Baggy Trousers wrote: »

Does anyone get the sense that if people read these threads in say 100 years, they will be flabbergasted by some of the rhetoric on both sides?
I think they will think we had way too much time on our hands!

I think you are giving people too much credit. Arguing meaningless points is one of humanity's oldest traditions. I'm sure in 100 years, they'll still be doing it.

RobertKK · 31-01-2015 3:33pm

eviltwin wrote: »

None of which explains why God stands idly by and allows suffering to happen

It is not like he denied Jesus the right to suffer and he the son of God.

Grayson · 31-01-2015 3:34pm

RobertKK wrote: »

Probably busy playing Sim City elsewhere in the Universe.

I lolled

Ghost Buster · 31-01-2015 3:35pm

RobertKK wrote: »

Surely one would argue God is far more restrained than humans, don't we hear all the comlaints about 'rules' in religion.
Isn't it the unrestrained humans in the bible that reject God that causes the bad stuff to happen?

And how did this needy sulky git react to a few tribes rejection of him?
Remind me?
Was in in the way of a wise all powerful being or a sulky vain human way?

eviltwin · 31-01-2015 3:36pm

RobertKK wrote: »

It is not like he denied Jesus the right to suffer and he the son of God.

So you can't offer an explanation beyond cause it says so in the bible.

Ghost Buster · 31-01-2015 3:36pm

RobertKK wrote: »

It is not like he denied Jesus the right to suffer and he the son of God.

Thats wasnt nice either!

Stephen Fry on confronting god after death

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