M11 - Arklow to Rathnew

spacetweek · 30-03-2015 1:20pm

josip wrote: »

Seeing the new road for the first time in daylight since last autumn, I was also surprised by the apparent narrowness until I realised that the carriageways will be separated by just a concrete barrier with no median stip. So the new section of road can't be easily converted to 3 lane without major rework of junctions/bridges? Which I initially thought was short sighted.
But the Glen of the Downs-Kilmacanogue-Bray section is also limited to 2 lanes with little prospect of upgrade to 3 lanes.
So is the reality that the wide median strip from Newtown Mount Kennedy to the Beehive is an expensive overdesign that will never be needed?

Our options for Bray to places south are limited by nature, geography and buildings close to the road. NTMK is the least of our worries.

Carawaystick · 30-03-2015 3:40pm

josip wrote: »

So is the reality that the wide median strip from Newtown Mount Kennedy to the Beehive is an expensive overdesign that will never be needed?

That was probably designed before the nra had to eat their humble pie and install median barriers. the nra originally stated sheepwire fences would be grand

antoobrien · 30-03-2015 3:47pm

Carawaystick wrote: »

That was probably designed before the nra had to eat their humble pie and install median barriers. the nra originally stated sheepwire fences would be grand

If wikipedia is to be believed it was opened in 1990 (before the NRA came about), so it was reflective of the standards of the time.

The DCs that were built in and around Galway in the 90s have the similar style medians.

ITDept · 30-03-2015 3:49pm

Maybe remove the concrete barrier, put as many lanes in as fit in the space and operate them on a tidal basis. In the mornings more lanes would be allocated to northbound traffic, in the evenings it would be southbound.

Lots of places use similar systems with some success (so it's not something we'd have to invent from scratch), it's cheaper than building bridges / tunnels, and it's a relatively easy thing for the motoring public to get their heads around (if there's a green arrow you can use the lane, if there's a red X you can't).

veryangryman · 30-03-2015 6:35pm

ITDept wrote: »

Maybe remove the concrete barrier, put as many lanes in as fit in the space and operate them on a tidal basis. In the mornings more lanes would be allocated to northbound traffic, in the evenings it would be southbound.

Lots of places use similar systems with some success (so it's not something we'd have to invent from scratch), it's cheaper than building bridges / tunnels, and it's a relatively easy thing for the motoring public to get their heads around (if there's a green arrow you can use the lane, if there's a red X you can't).

In my opinion safety trumps everything. The barrier is what makes a motorway or dc a good thing.

Possibly lose the hard shoulder to make a lane but again, safety issues

Schadenfreudia · 30-03-2015 8:38pm

veryangryman wrote: »

Possibly lose the hard shoulder to make a lane but again, safety issues

In the Glen there isn't a hard shoulder to lose - thanks to the tree-huggers. :mad:

josip · 31-03-2015 1:08am

Speaking of tree huggers, 2 trees fell on the stretch between Redcross and the Beehive tonight, completely blocking the road. Lots of flashing maintenance trucks and squad cars on hand to clear things up.

Carawaystick · 31-03-2015 9:35am

antoobrien wrote: »

If wikipedia is to be believed it was opened in 1990 (before the NRA came about), so it was reflective of the standards of the time.

The DCs that were built in and around Galway in the 90s have the similar style medians.

The wiki link you posted states 2004 as the opening of the stretch of road in question, Newtownmountkennedy to the Beehive.

antoobrien · 31-03-2015 9:52am

Carawaystick wrote: »

The wiki link you posted states 2004 as the opening of the stretch of road in question, Newtownmountkennedy to the Beehive.

It's not the Newtownmountkennedy bypass? My bad.

vickers209 · 31-03-2015 12:29pm

antoobrien wrote: »

It's not the Newtownmountkennedy bypass? My bad.

The Rathnew Ashford bypass opened on August 04 which tied into the Newtown bypass which opened in 1990.
where the median is is a hill of grass that is the Newtown bypass where it's level with road is the rathnew Ashford bypass

spacetweek · 31-03-2015 12:41pm

Carawaystick wrote: »

The wiki link you posted states 2004 as the opening of the stretch of road in question, Newtownmountkennedy to the Beehive.

If you're talking about the NTMK bypass itself (Jct 12-13), that was opened in 1990. The part of the N11 south of that town as far as Ashford (Jct 13-17) is what opened in 2004.

In 1990 standards for DCs and motorways were different from now.

It's all on this page (Click to show/hide minor schemes).

[Edit: vickers209, you beat me to it!]

spacetweek · 31-03-2015 12:45pm

ITDept wrote: »

Maybe remove the concrete barrier, put as many lanes in as fit in the space and operate them on a tidal basis. In the mornings more lanes would be allocated to northbound traffic, in the evenings it would be southbound.

You'd still need a barrier to separate the edge of the reversible lane from the other side of the road. The arrangement to enable the switchover is often complex too, this video shows it happening in Chicago using fixed infrastructure.
In this video from San Diego, however, the switching is done using a moveable barrier. That would work best on the N11 since it takes up less space.

I'm normally not a fan of tidal lanes as it's usually better to just widen the road instead of messing about with moving barriers, and it doesn't work on roads where there are equally large traffic flows in both directions in both rush hours, such as on the M50.

But in the case of the N11 we're quite constrained and there is a clear am-inbound, pm-outbound flow so I think it could have merit.

ITDept · 31-03-2015 1:23pm

I've been on a few that don't use a barrier to separate the directions. They just leave an empty lane as far as I know. If you could squeeze 6 lanes in, then you'd have 3 inbound, 1 empty / separator and 2 outbound and then you re-allocate the empty lane during the day.

I don't think you need permanent hard shoulders in such an arrangement either - just close off the lane if someone breaks down there. You could also install a variable speed limit system at the same time to try to limit bunching.

The one I'm a little familiar with is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A38%28M%29_motorway I know there are differences but I think some of the ideas in use there could work here.

antoobrien · 31-03-2015 1:24pm

spacetweek wrote: »

If you're talking about the NTMK bypass itself (Jct 12-13), that was opened in 1990. The part of the N11 south of that town as far as Ashford (Jct 13-17) is what opened in 2004.

This section would have been built to similar standards to the NTMK bypass (wide medians & wire) as the standards were changed after a number of crashes in/around 2004 where cars went through the central reservation into oncoming traffic.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/crash-victims-fighting-for-lives-after-m50-pileup-injures-seven-25888653.html

prunudo · 31-03-2015 1:55pm

ITDept wrote: »

I've been on a few that don't use a barrier to separate the directions. They just leave an empty lane as far as I know. If you could squeeze 6 lanes in, then you'd have 3 inbound, 1 empty / separator and 2 outbound and then you re-allocate the empty lane during the day.

I don't think you need permanent hard shoulders in such an arrangement either - just close off the lane if someone breaks down there. You could also install a variable speed limit system at the same time to try to limit bunching.

The one I'm a little familiar with is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A38%28M%29_motorway I know there are differences but I think some of the ideas in use there could work here.

Considering the concept of driving on a 3 lane motorway seems to be a mystery to so many irish drivers, Id say your example would cause all sorts of issues.

Schadenfreudia · 31-03-2015 6:13pm

As I've nearly lived on this road for much of my life I think the dates in the Wikipedia are very accurate.

badgerbroc11 · 01-04-2015 6:36am

ITDept wrote: »

If you could squeeze 6 lanes in, then you'd have 3 inbound, 1 empty / separator and 2 outbound and then you re-allocate the empty lane during the day.

In Ireland!! Where lots of people still can't use a roundabout... Soon, Google will be transporting us in driverless cars and lanes won't matter. Has the ITDept any updates :-)

veryangryman · 01-04-2015 7:42am

I think the In Ireland thing gets old. The fact is that most of the older generation never saw a roundabout until circa 1995 (and later in rural areas).

To compare it with any country where they grow up with such facilities is nonsense. Yes its no excuse and yes they should be retested to avoid a flight risk, but its not exclusive to Ireland.

Falcon L · 01-04-2015 9:31am

veryangryman wrote: »

I think the In Ireland thing gets old. The fact is that most of the older generation never saw a roundabout until circa 1995 (and later in rural areas).

To compare it with any country where they grow up with such facilities is nonsense. Yes its no excuse and yes they should be retested to avoid a flight risk, but its not exclusive to Ireland.

The ageism in this forum is astounding!

I've been driving nearly 43 years and I remember roundabouts being a feature of my driving the whole time.

I've used tidal systems before - without any lane division other than white lines - and found them to be the most natural thing in the world. They work very well. All that is required is that drivers follow the lights and signs.

Drivers without a clue aren't restricted to any age, or nationality for that matter.

OldMrBrennan83 · 01-04-2015 10:43am

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jd · 01-04-2015 10:53am

Patww79 wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Yup, today entered M50 from Ballymun ramp going southbound, in left hand auxiliary lane. Guy in front of me barrelled across hatching, right hand merge lane and on to main carriageway. Absolutely pointless, he had maybe 4 kms to merge if he'd stayed where he was, and I ended up merging maybe 3/400 meters ahead of him.

spacetweek · 01-04-2015 11:47am

Everyone take a deep breath and let's get back on track.

jd · 01-04-2015 12:08pm

I'm traveling to Wexford tomorrow afternoon - if I have time I'll try get a few photos. The last time I was down was a month ago, it'll be interesting to see if there is noticeable progress over the course of a month.

ITDept · 01-04-2015 12:15pm

jd wrote: »

I'm traveling to Wexford tomorrow afternoon - if I have time I'll try get a few photos. The last time I was down was a month ago, it'll be interesting to see if there is noticeable progress over the course of a month.

The bit around The Bee Hive should be quite different. Also a lot more stretches of the new road have been surfaced at this stage.

ITDept · 01-04-2015 12:19pm

badgerbroc11 wrote: »

In Ireland!! Where lots of people still can't use a roundabout... Soon, Google will be transporting us in driverless cars and lanes won't matter. Has the ITDept any updates :-)

When you say 'soon' I think you may be talking in geological terms

I'll be pleasantly surprised if it happens in Ireland in my lifetime.

Irish_rat · 02-04-2015 2:48pm

Patww79 wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Don't want to drag the thread off topic again but this is nonsense. Go to mainland Europe and you'll see much more aggressive and dangerous driving. I think the quality of drivers in this country is improving, lane discipline could be improved somewhat though.

OldMrBrennan83 · 02-04-2015 3:15pm

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josip · 02-04-2015 5:00pm

I was on it last Saturday, Sunday and Monday. No problems at any time.
Monday I was going through at 6pm on a wet evening and everything kept moving.
Biggest danger is rubbernecking to see all the completed sections of the new road.
Over winter they've turned it from a MotoCross track into a high spec road.
Waiting the last few months will be tough.

OldMrBrennan83 · 02-04-2015 5:38pm

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Carawaystick · 03-04-2015 11:26am

Patww79 wrote: »

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I'd say the ppp contract stated the developer gets no money until all 3 projects are complete, so there's no rush to finish the petrol station.

There's concrete median barrier down on a bit of the new road as of last Monday.
Wonder if there'll be much stir next week, do builders holidays still happen?

Geogregor · 03-04-2015 5:06pm

Patww79 wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

It is not a uniquely Irish thing. Did you ever drive in Poland or further east? If not that means you have never seen aggressive driving.

I prefer driving in Ireland any time.

spacetweek · 03-04-2015 7:15pm

Patww79 wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

I think Irish drivers are far too timid, they never blow the horn to discipline others. Try driving in USA/Germany/France, you'll get blown out of it.

03-04-2015 9:23pm

spacetweek wrote: »

I think Irish drivers are far too timid, they never blow the horn to discipline others. Try driving in USA/Germany/France, you'll get blown out of it.

Way OT, but in the US, especially Texas you'll literally get shot if you cut someone up!

Anyway, what's this to do with a new motorway being built near Arklow.

spacetweek · 03-04-2015 9:48pm

Soon our Cumberland Gap will be closed

UK road heads will get that one.

busyatwork · 03-04-2015 10:01pm

spacetweek wrote: »

I think Irish drivers are far too timid, they never blow the horn to discipline others. Try driving in USA/Germany/France, you'll get blown out of it.

What differience will blowing the horn make you will only get the **** off symbol back or worse ,yhe **** kick out of ya

Chris_5339762 · 03-04-2015 10:32pm

spacetweek wrote: »

Soon our Cumberland Gap will be closed
UK road heads will get that one.

Almost, but you'll have to have a nonsensical, political number change near the Beehive

dmeehan · 04-04-2015 11:30am

spacetweek wrote: »

Soon our Cumberland Gap will be closed
UK road heads will get that one.

and for the rest of us: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A74_road#Cumberland_Gap

jd · 04-04-2015 2:26pm

Carawaystick wrote: »

I'd say the ppp contract stated the developer gets no money until all 3 projects are complete, so there's no rush to finish the petrol station.

There's concrete median barrier down on a bit of the new road as of last Monday.
Wonder if there'll be much stir next week, do builders holidays still happen?

I think it's out to tender at the moment, read it in the Wexford People a few weeks ago.
Doubt it'll do great business before the Enniscorthy by-pass opens, partly because of the Ashford offline service area, so maybe no great rush.

TechnoFreek · 08-04-2015 7:10am

The n11 website has been updated. It talks about the ongoing works at the beehive plus it goes in to some detail on the works about to start on the north tie in.

Unfortunately it says that these tie in works will be in place until August so if it does take that long we can assume the motorway won't be opening too much ahead of schedule.

http://www.n7n11.ie/n11-update/

Geogregor · 08-04-2015 9:34am

TechnoFreek wrote: »

The n11 website has been updated. It talks about the ongoing works at the beehive plus it goes in to some detail on the works about to start on the north tie in.

Unfortunately it says that these tie in works will be in place until August so if it does take that long we can assume the motorway won't be opening too much ahead of schedule.

http://www.n7n11.ie/n11-update/

They could put a bit larger photos there.

mackerski · 08-04-2015 10:27am

During the weekend, I drove the entire route in each direction including interesting side roads where realignment has taken place. Photos of the whole thing can be viewed in Mapillary (a crowdsourced street view system). Click on any of the track logs shown to see the images at that point, but note that certain sections will have multiple tracklogs present (for different directions or from different surveys). Zoom in to make things simpler.

https://www.mapillary.com/map/im/c8PDbyzO4PcCrUDwceOFMg

TechnoFreek · 09-04-2015 11:46am

I see work has started on the north end to remove some of the existing median to allow north flowing traffic shift to the southbound lane.

I'm not looking forward to Friday evenings if this is in place until August!

Mr.Boots · 10-04-2015 8:20am

I know nothing of road building but I travel this road twice a day and have had a sense that they were ahead of schedule due to very good weather over last autumn, winter and now spring. I would be suprised if is going to take till August to complete, I have nothing other than observing the progress until now to base this on but I kinda thought it would be done by end of June.

jd · 10-04-2015 8:27am

Mr.Boots wrote: »

I I have nothing other than observing the progress until now to base this on but I kinda thought it would be done by end of June.

I think the last part, the northern tie in, is the bit that will add in the extra weeks

TechnoFreek · 10-04-2015 10:33am

Mr.Boots wrote: »

I know nothing of road building but I travel this road twice a day and have had a sense that they were ahead of schedule due to very good weather over last autumn, winter and now spring. I would be suprised if is going to take till August to complete, I have nothing other than observing the progress until now to base this on but I kinda thought it would be done by end of June.

Same here. But as said before, basic project management has you overstating dates to allow for all eventualities. Plus they mightnt want to publicly declare yet that they are indeed ahead of a schedule.

It really would be great if it was complete by June. Friday evenings are intolerable from before the beehive.
I'm on a bus so the coast road isn't an option.

TechnoFreek · 10-04-2015 10:36am

jd wrote: »

I think the last part, the northern tie in, is the bit that will add in the extra weeks

Yeah, if you look at the bee hive junction, as a comparison, its a relatively confined discrete piece of work. It has been going on a few months at this stage.

vickers209 · 10-04-2015 11:59pm

New layout on N11 at Scratenagh from Saturday

http://www.wicklownews.net/2015/04/new-layout-on-n11-at-scratenagh-from-saturday/

Final link at arklow side to allow completion of the mainline road opening tomorrow

badgerbroc11 · 12-04-2015 7:52am

vickers209 wrote: »

New layout on N11 at Scratenagh from Saturday

Final link at arklow side to allow completion of the mainline road opening tomorrow

Having to navigate two junctions, onto and off of the new flyover bridge is likely to have a big impact on traffic.

BoatMad · 13-04-2015 2:21pm

Looking at it today ( I travel this section very day ) , id say August is optimistic. Theres a lot to be done imho, Ive seen "almost " complete motorways take weeks to actually open

the jams are going to get a lot worse before it gets better

Carawaystick · 13-04-2015 4:25pm

I got caught in the opening of this on Saturday afternoon, heading south, traffic stopped approaching the new bridge. I took the left at Scratenagh cross and headed in the Sea Road, thought there was a crash as there were no cars coming northbound in the 6-7 mins we were in the queue.

There were other lads laying asphalt back nearer Eftim Hurleys on the main line, after 4pm on Saturday.

M11 - Arklow to Rathnew

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