Waterford University discussion

PeteFalk78 · 25-10-2014 1:22pm

wellboytoo wrote: »

Quoting the Journal .Ie is akin to quoting the Dandy!
Jan o Sullivan is a politician quoting the party Line so what would you expect.

Take your pick, all the papers have it.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/waterford-it-told-it-will-not-get-standalone-university-status-1.1974411

Well all educational institution have to subsequently follow the party line. However some posters here don't see that.

Fate Amenable To Change · 25-10-2014 2:13pm

PeteFalk78 wrote: »

Is that just your opinion or do you have anything to back it up?

Just because WIT have been campaigning for University status for nearly 20 years it doesn't mean they are close. Tell that to the DOE and specifically Jan O'Sullivan who gave the WIT president a serious dressing down yesterday over their pullout http://www.thejournal.ie/it-carlow-waterford-1741496-Oct2014/

Who is Jan O Sullivan to dress down the head of WIT? She had a couple of years Montessori teaching...

Sully · 25-10-2014 2:15pm

It's a tough call for WIT. A college that has built itself up for so many years, hoping to become a University and promised a University. Assuming, based on this, that the strong lobbying against it and the obvious fiscal problems associated with the Education Sector at the moment and for existing Universities would not take center stage.

Fast forward, the government comes up with a compromise because it appears that becoming a full university is simply out of the question. WIT have been in talks with CIT for years - before the process of applying for this new university arose. It's a very messy and unprofessional way to pull out of an agreement and talks, but what's done is done. WIT have been told clearly by Labour : It's all or nothing. You either merge with Carlow, or you don't get University status.

For me, if the merger meant what Waterford would loose it's position as one of the stronger ITs in the country or if it meant that it's main base or HQ would no longer be in Waterford - than they should stay as an IT and forget about their dream for a University. Because no government now is going to give it University. Fianna Fail never did, and never would. Sinn Fein don't give a hoot about Waterford or the Region, just Cullinane desperately trying to make a name for himself so he can finally get a seat in the Dail. Independents, despite peoples weird love in for them, will obviously struggle on policy when it comes to national issues as there all just there to battle for their own backyard (each local rep with a different view) and will all have different policies and approaches that will simply result in a mess. As it has in previous government formations and as it is now in the Technical Group who are tearing strips out of each other (which makes me wonder what Halligan is at, it's like he has no desire to be in government but instead just sit on the backbenches rubbishing the government at the time).

If DIT can get on with negotiations for a regional Tech University, than WIT should be able too IMO.

Fate Amenable To Change · 25-10-2014 2:23pm

^^^^^I'm sorry Sully this is not a Labour policy, this is a Government policy. Fianna Fail might give us a University it would regain their two seat base at least in Waterford, might even get them 3 seats for a couple of elections. They're desperate to rebuild their base and Waterford was generally a 2 seat constituency for them. All I know is Fine Gael promised and didn't deliver... this doesn't mean nobody else will just that for the moment Fine Gael promise and guarantees are not followed through with regards giving Waterford a University. And no I'm not going to vote Fiana Fail

Edit: they weren't told they wouldn't get Uni status... the thing on the table was technological uni

Sully · 25-10-2014 2:34pm

Fate Amenable To Change wrote: »

^^^^^I'm sorry Sully this is not a Labour policy, this is a Government policy. Fianna Fail might give us a University it would regain their two seat base at least in Waterford, might even get them 3 seats for a couple of elections. They're desperate to rebuild their base and Waterford was generally a 2 seat constituency for them. All I know is Fine Gael promised and didn't deliver... this doesn't mean nobody else will just that for the moment Fine Gael promise and guarantees are not followed through with regards giving Waterford a University. And no I'm not going to vote Fiana Fail

Edit: they weren't told they wouldn't get Uni status... the thing on the table was technological uni

I never said it wasn't a government policy? I've made that clear earlier on that both parties were at fault. It was a Labour Minister who gave the 'dressing down' to WIT and who proposed the policy, backed by government.

Fate Amenable To Change · 25-10-2014 2:42pm

Sully wrote: »

I never said it wasn't a government policy? .

Sully wrote: »

WIT have been told clearly by Labour

No mention of Fine Gael in your post yet you mentioned every other political party including independents.

Did you edit your post??? lol

Sully · 25-10-2014 3:23pm

Fate Amenable To Change wrote: »

No mention of Fine Gael in your post yet you mentioned every other political party including independents.

Did you edit your post??? lol

Well.. this is awkward!

Sully wrote: »

The blame is clearly with both parties, i'm not denying that.

Sully wrote: »

A college that has built itself up for so many years, hoping to become a University and promised a University.

...

Fast forward, the government comes up with a compromise because it appears that becoming a full university is simply out of the question.

Fate Amenable To Change · 25-10-2014 4:41pm

Sully wrote: »

Well.. this is awkward!

Where in the post did you say that, in the one I quoted because its not there... of course you might re-edit it and put it in there. Fine Gael failed on its promises. This doesn;t mean anyone else will, why are you criticising every other party and brining labour up again and again while Fine Gael are barely mentioned... I'm confused as to why it is that way. I think its very much to do with a failure of Fine Gael as the senior partner and not Labour determined to stop a University

Eit: What other party promised a University for WIT anyway. Also I was on about the original quote, I know it can get very confusing.

7upfree · 25-10-2014 5:18pm

Sully wrote: »

Fast forward, the government comes up with a compromise because it appears that becoming a full university is simply out of the question.

Not if the promise FG made was delivered on. And if we as a City adopt that defeatist attitude we will never see one.

Still banging the FG drum. Incredibly.

robtri · 25-10-2014 5:28pm

Sully wrote: »

Fast forward, the government comes up with a compromise because it appears that becoming a full university is simply out of the question.

Lets cut the BS Sully

By the government you mean FG
they failed to give us what they promised, like a lot of other pre election promises and previous talks (lets be honest even according to their exulted leader FG are an immoral and unethical party)

Why is it out of the question???

Fate Amenable To Change · 25-10-2014 5:32pm

Having 5 points made will result in one being addressed. The one chosen will be the easiest one to use to change the subject.

All I know is that plenty of promises have been made by FG for a University for Waterford and we seem to now be further away after their election and many years down the line. This Government and therefore FGs election has been negative for a University for Waterford.

comeraghs · 27-10-2014 9:51pm

FG's promise!

http://www.munster-express.ie/local-news/fine-gaels-university-pledge/

Figerty · 28-10-2014 12:40am

comeraghs wrote: »

FG's promise!

http://www.munster-express.ie/local-news/fine-gaels-university-pledge/

Must be an election looming.....

Digital Society · 28-10-2014 1:36am

Isnt it incredible how dumb and gullible some people can be.

7upfree · 28-10-2014 10:12am

Digital Society wrote: »

Isnt it incredible how dumb and gullible some people can be.

Absolutely.

O Riain · 28-10-2014 11:40am

If FG don't gain some serious ground on the University issue then, combined with the Water Charge fiasco, they will lose all their seats here in Waterford.

Same goes for labour.

7upfree · 28-10-2014 12:46pm

O Riain wrote: »

If FG don't gain some serious ground on the University issue then, combined with the Water Charge fiasco, they will lose all their seats here in Waterford.

Same goes for labour.

Please God.

AdMMM · 30-10-2014 12:38pm

O Riain wrote: »

If FG don't gain some serious ground on the University issue then, combined with the Water Charge fiasco, they will lose all their seats here in Waterford.

Same goes for labour.

As a farmers party, they'll retain at least the one seat. Also the further West you go in the county, the less of an issue the university is because of the proximity to UCC and CIT.

Labour, however, are up the creak without a paddle.

fricatus · 30-10-2014 1:01pm

Interesting blog post by Ferdinand von Prondzynski, former president of DCU

7upfree · 30-10-2014 1:06pm

fricatus wrote: »

Interesting blog post by Ferdinand von Prondzynski, former president of DCU

Great blog. The key (concluding) sentence:

"In the case of Ireland, it is very doubtful whether the whole idea of a ‘technological university’ makes sense in the first place. Waterford Institute of Technology is a fine institution with significant elements of quality. It should be judged in its bid for university status on the basis of those qualities. Forcing it to merge with another institution in which those elements are largely absent is no way to pursue this agenda".

Over to our "political representatives". Who, as usual, are strangely mute on the issue.

fricatus · 30-10-2014 1:17pm

7upfree wrote: »

Great blog. The key (concluding) sentence:

"In the case of Ireland, it is very doubtful whether the whole idea of a ‘technological university’ makes sense in the first place. Waterford Institute of Technology is a fine institution with significant elements of quality. It should be judged in its bid for university status on the basis of those qualities. Forcing it to merge with another institution in which those elements are largely absent is no way to pursue this agenda".

Over to our "political representatives". Who, as usual, are strangely mute on the issue.

Agreed, and someone called Cormac in the comments section makes an excellent argument, which adds even more weight to the case for an upgrade:

Cormac wrote:

Btw, I notice that you’re still saying “One institute that has for some time been attempting to become a university is Waterford Institute of Technology.”
This is misleading because it omits the highly relevant fact that it is the city of Waterford and surrounding region that have been driving the campaign for a university in the southeast..and they’re not doing it for fun, but because of the brain-drain of students and industry to Dublin.

This aspect of the Waterford situation makes it very different to that of other institutions such as Cork IT or indeed DIT, a point that always seems to be missed by commentators.

ec18 · 30-10-2014 2:15pm

fricatus wrote: »

Agreed, and someone called Cormac in the comments section makes an excellent argument, which adds even more weight to the case for an upgrade:

He's a lecturer in WIT

fricatus · 30-10-2014 2:22pm

ec18 wrote: »

He's a lecturer in WIT

Good on him... it's a point that's so often overlooked, just as he says.

It's not Cormac O Raifeartaigh the physicist by any chance, is it?

ec18 · 30-10-2014 3:02pm

fricatus wrote: »

Good on him... it's a point that's so often overlooked, just as he says.

It's not Cormac O Raifeartaigh the physicist by any chance, is it?

It is indeed

fuzzy dunlop · 30-10-2014 3:34pm

7upfree wrote: »

Great blog. The key (concluding) sentence:

"In the case of Ireland, it is very doubtful whether the whole idea of a ‘technological university’ makes sense in the first place. Waterford Institute of Technology is a fine institution with significant elements of quality. It should be judged in its bid for university status on the basis of those qualities. Forcing it to merge with another institution in which those elements are largely absent is no way to pursue this agenda".

Over to our "political representatives". Who, as usual, are strangely mute on the issue.

It just further illustrates that the whole TU drive/merger is another fiasco heaped upon a long litany of fiascos. It wasn't that long ago that we were still driving for a seperate university as well as IT. It jhas been compromise upon compromise by us which has just left us in a positiion where WIT can be asset stripped to support smaller institutions in Carlow, Wexford and possibly Kilkenny. Think a a repeat of the Regional Hopspital debacle.

Einhard · 31-10-2014 8:31am

People here are complaining about the parish pump politics of Hogan and Howlin in trying to shoehorn campuses for their own constituencies into the Waterford University project, but are ignoring the fact that their desire for university status quite often smacks of the same parish pump mentality.

Very rarely have I seen reasoned debate on why Ireland needs another university; there's very little said about the educational advantages for the island accruing from an upgraded WIT; and there's even less about the advantages for Irish industry, commerce, and the science.

Instead it's often all about Waterford- how Waterford will benefit from an upgrade. And that cannot even be a minor consideration in a rational discussion university status. The core focus must be on how this would impact on Ireland and the third level sector here- would it be positive or negative.

In an ideal world I'd be all for a university in Waterford. However, there is only so much money in the pot. If Waterford gets university status, then either the budget for the sector would have to be increased- which won't happen- or the existing institutions will have their cut. With Ireland's third level institutions struggling at the moment, a cut in funds would have a deletirious affect across the board. Rather than enhancing Ireland's reputation, such an upgrade could well diminish it.

Perhaps there are considerations I'm overlooking here, and if so, I'd be happy to have my position changed.

wellboytoo · 31-10-2014 9:14am

Einhard wrote: »

People here are complaining about the parish pump politics of Hogan and Howlin in trying to shoehorn campuses for their own constituencies into the Waterford University project, but are ignoring the fact that their desire for university status quite often smacks of the same parish pump mentality.

Very rarely have I seen reasoned debate on why Ireland needs another university; there's very little said about the educational advantages for the island accruing from an upgraded WIT; and there's even less about the advantages for Irish industry, commerce, and the science.

Instead it's often all about Waterford- how Waterford will benefit from an upgrade. And that cannot even be a minor consideration in a rational discussion university status. The core focus must be on how this would impact on Ireland and the third level sector here- would it be positive or negative.

In an ideal world I'd be all for a university in Waterford. However, there is only so much money in the pot. If Waterford gets university status, then either the budget for the sector would have to be increased- which won't happen- or the existing institutions will have their cut. With Ireland's third level institutions struggling at the moment, a cut in funds would have a deletirious affect across the board. Rather than enhancing Ireland's reputation, such an upgrade could well diminish it.

Perhaps there are considerations I'm overlooking here, and if so, I'd be happy to have my position changed.

A very simple one, if you are from the southeast it is much more expensive to go to University because you have to live away from home, simples

O Riain · 31-10-2014 9:32am

Einhard wrote: »

People here are complaining about the parish pump politics of Hogan and Howlin in trying to shoehorn campuses for their own constituencies into the Waterford University project, but are ignoring the fact that their desire for university status quite often smacks of the same parish pump mentality.

Very rarely have I seen reasoned debate on why Ireland needs another university; there's very little said about the educational advantages for the island accruing from an upgraded WIT; and there's even less about the advantages for Irish industry, commerce, and the science.

Instead it's often all about Waterford- how Waterford will benefit from an upgrade. And that cannot even be a minor consideration in a rational discussion university status. The core focus must be on how this would impact on Ireland and the third level sector here- would it be positive or negative.

In an ideal world I'd be all for a university in Waterford. However, there is only so much money in the pot. If Waterford gets university status, then either the budget for the sector would have to be increased- which won't happen- or the existing institutions will have their cut. With Ireland's third level institutions struggling at the moment, a cut in funds would have a deletirious affect across the board. Rather than enhancing Ireland's reputation, such an upgrade could well diminish it.

Perhaps there are considerations I'm overlooking here, and if so, I'd be happy to have my position changed.

It's a University for the entire population of the South East, not just for Waterford. That includes South Tipp, Kilkenny, Waterford, Wexford and Carlow. The region has a population of almost 500,000 people yet no University.

Max Powers · 31-10-2014 11:11am

O Riain wrote: »

It's a University for the entire population of the South East, not just for Waterford. That includes South Tipp, Kilkenny, Waterford, Wexford and Carlow. The region has a population of almost 500,000 people yet no University.

beat me to it O Rian. A population greater than the west too.
It easy for those 'in the club' to say we dont need another one. The lack of funding for Unis is not the only issue contributing to their slipping down the rankings. On a side note, those rankings are not the be all, I read in an article, out of all the Unis in the world, ours do really well and are in the top few %. Is it realistic to have a Cambridge, MIT in Ireland, probably not, we just simply do not have the € for a country our size and probably never will. How about concentrating on providing solid education instead

fricatus · 31-10-2014 11:23am

Einhard wrote: »

Very rarely have I seen reasoned debate on why Ireland needs another university; there's very little said about the educational advantages for the island accruing from an upgraded WIT; and there's even less about the advantages for Irish industry, commerce, and the science.

The real question in Ireland is the distribution of our universities. There are four in the Dublin area and three in the rest of the country. This is patently wrong, and why we don't kick up a massive fuss about this is a mystery to me. Only a quarter of the population lives in Dublin, and even if you take the Greater Dublin Area as your measure, it's still only 40%, so there's a massive imbalance there.

There can't be universities everywhere of course, but what we should ensure is that they are spread out in such a way that they are close to as much as the population as possible. A map of Ireland showing the catchment areas of the universities reveals significant gaps in the south-east and north-west, with smaller gaps in the midlands and north-east.

These areas are essentially excluded from participating in the academic life of the nation at university level, which surely stops them from realising their true potential. I remember Garret Fitzgerald in one of his columns pondering why two cities of similar size in the '80s, Galway and Waterford, had such divergent paths when it came to their growth and the success of the local economy, and it struck me as odd that such an analytical man didn't immediately point to the fact that Galway had both an IT and a university, whilst Waterford had only an IT.

I seem to remember someone else (I can't remember who) saying that part of Galway's success was because it had "two world-class theatre companies". If that isn't the most patronising nonsense I've ever read, I don't know what is! But even that makes sense if you see it as an effect rather than a cause, because a university makes a unique contribution to the intellectual and artistic life of a place through the creativity of its academics and students, way beyond the obvious economic benefits.

If Waterford and the wider south-east can live up to their potential, it will benefit Ireland immensely. We don't want to be also-rans in this country, and we don't have to be. We've got this far on our own. We just need government to stop hindering our progress now!

Waterford University discussion

Comments