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Waterford University discussion

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    #482
    Meathlass
    Registered Users Posts: 3,023 ✭✭✭Meathlass


    imacman wrote: »
    Absolutely funding is an issue but is creating a dysfunctional organization the answer to this. Because if this is forced through that's what we will have.

    I agree. There would always have been problems with staff merging but if the relationship between senior management isn't functioning then that's a huge problem.

    What's the alternative though? WIT need to merge with someone if they want a TU; if not ITC then perhaps CIT but they're already in their own strategic grouping.


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    #483
    Harry Palmr
    Closed Accounts Posts: 40,061 ✭✭✭✭Harry Palmr


    Interesting development, that'll annoy the people in Dublin who don't actually give a fvck anyway.


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    #484
    teckno123
    Registered Users Posts: 15 ✭teckno123


    Fair play to the board of WIT suspending this absolute shambles. Why should we as Ireland's oldest city been treated different to the other city's. You don't see UL been forced into been called University of Mid West or something else rubbish. Face it these so called 'technological university's' are nothing but a sham and simply another renaming process for the current ITs.. Reality even if this TUSE go ahead does anyone actually think it's going to be seen by anyone as he same level of a UL or UCC or NUIG absolutely no way. So delighted with the stance of WIT today and we are better off staying as we are then giving into this shambles. Unless it's University of Waterford like the other city's with the main campus on the Cork road we should forget about anything else


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    #485
    fricatus
    Registered Users Posts: 5,081 ✭✭✭fricatus


    Meathlass wrote: »
    The problem is though, the international funding is being funneled towards universities...

    So upgrade WIT... problem solved!

    Meathlass wrote: »
    ...so if both WIT and ITC decide to part and just continue on as Institutes then they are shut out of funding streams which are looking for more and more collaboration between partners.

    Who decides where this funding is allocated? Why does there have to be "collaboration between partners"? Normally when we hear about such partnerships, it's usually private companies or institutions partnering with public universities or ITs, and I can see where there would be complementary strengths there - "we've got this problem, a load of money and access to great facilities, while you've got a bunch of brainy people who need to be paid..."

    However what sort of research could WIT and ITC do together that couldn't be done better by either of them on their own? Maybe there are areas once again where they have specialties that complement one another, but forcing them to work together for the sake of it doesn't exactly make sense (to a layman like me).

    Meathlass wrote: »
    What's the alternative though? WIT need to merge with someone if they want a TU...

    This saga has gone on for so long, it's no wonder people have lost sight of the original aim. That aim was to have a university in Waterford. There had been proposals for a "greenfield" university to be set up from scratch, but various governments torpedoed this idea, stating that an upgrade of an existing institution was necessary.

    WIT then worked towards the goal of functioning at university level. Its attainment of this was pretty much confirmed by the Port Report. WIT should have just been upgraded at that point. It wasn't, and the question was asked about what criteria it would need to meet, since it was at a higher level than DCU had been when it got university status.

    This proposal for TUs, and the requirement to merge with other institutions as a precondition, is a new shifting of the goalposts by government. It does two things:
    1. it contains the ambitions of the ITs by offering them a second-division university status outside the present core of seven universities.
    2. it includes a precondition that strong institutions like WIT and CIT will have to merge with weaker institutions, which sets back their ambitions by some years.

    So yes, WIT will have to merge with somewhere else if it wants to be a TU, but is that what it should want? Is the offer of second-class university status really good enough to risk weakening and watering down the strengths that it already has as an IT?

    I would say no, which is why WIT should bide its time and pursue full university status now by a different path, even if that means a strategic retreat for now.


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    #486
    Meathlass
    Registered Users Posts: 3,023 ✭✭✭Meathlass


    fricatus wrote: »
    Who decides where this funding is allocated? Why does there have to be "collaboration between partners"?

    There are lots of funding streams (research funds run by Europe) which can only be accessed by large groups of PhDs which neither IT has at the moment.

    Funds like Interreg and Horizon2020 all want multiple ITs and universities to join together to put in research proposals; it used to be that 2 partners would suffice, now they want at least 4.

    Whether anyone likes it or not collaboration is the name of the game when it comes to research funding which brings in significant income.

    If WIT wants to become a university (not a TU) in its own right then they'll have to retreat and wait until such a time as the strategic frameworks of both this government and the HEA change because as of now they won't be upgraded to university status and they won't be upgraded to TU status without merging.


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    #487
    wellboytoo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,081 ✭✭✭wellboytoo


    Meathlass wrote: »
    There are lots of funding streams (research funds run by Europe) which can only be accessed by large groups of PhDs which neither IT has at the moment.

    Funds like Interreg and Horizon2020 all want multiple ITs and universities to join together to put in research proposals; it used to be that 2 partners would suffice, now they want at least 4.

    Whether anyone likes it or not collaboration is the name of the game when it comes to research funding which brings in significant income.

    If WIT wants to become a university (not a TU) in its own right then they'll have to retreat and wait until such a time as the strategic frameworks of both this government and the HEA change because as of now they won't be upgraded to university status and they won't be upgraded to TU status without merging.

    Says you, but this is Ireland and Everything is political, so stuff what we can't do, we are thirty years looking for this and 25 years being promised half assed unattainable goals being set, that are nothing but speed ramps to stop us getting a Uni, it's gloves off time and we should browbeat, threaten , whatever it takes to make the decision happen, we have enough examples all over the country where political expediency surpass's common sense.
    Our case is made it is a good and honest case, just make it happen


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    #488
    Meathlass
    Registered Users Posts: 3,023 ✭✭✭Meathlass


    wellboytoo wrote: »
    this is Ireland and Everything is political

    Tell me about it! That's why we end up with the farce of 4 campuses for a proposed TUSE not to mention 7 universities and 14 IoTs in a country with the population of Greater Manchester.


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    #489
    Harry Palmr
    Closed Accounts Posts: 40,061 ✭✭✭✭Harry Palmr


    I sometimes wonder about how Scotland makes it work with 15 full fat Universities in a 5.5 million population and yet they do.


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    #490
    Fate Amenable To Change
    Registered Users Posts: 223 ✭✭Fate Amenable To Change


    If we ended up getting a TU then we could forget about getting a University. This at least puts pressure on to whoever gets in next because the two in now don't seem to care that much. The TU was basically an excuse to keep funding at the minimum level while trying to obtain votes.


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    #491
    7upfree
    Registered Users Posts: 2,124 ✭✭✭7upfree


    wellboytoo wrote: »
    Says you, but this is Ireland and Everything is political, so stuff what we can't do, we are thirty years looking for this and 25 years being promised half assed unattainable goals being set, that are nothing but speed ramps to stop us getting a Uni, it's gloves off time and we should browbeat, threaten , whatever it takes to make the decision happen, we have enough examples all over the country where political expediency surpass's common sense.
    Our case is made it is a good and honest case, just make it happen

    Agree 100%. Unfortunately vested neighbouring interests do all in their power to stifle it. And have done for decades. At least in the West they pull together. Unlike the begrudgers surrounding us.


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    #492
    fricatus
    Registered Users Posts: 5,081 ✭✭✭fricatus


    7upfree wrote: »
    Agree 100%. Unfortunately vested neighbouring interests do all in their power to stifle it. And have done for decades. At least in the West they pull together. Unlike the begrudgers surrounding us.

    I think it's unfair to say that Waterford's neighbours "do all in their power to stifle it".

    What I think is fair to say though is that there has been absolutely no support from neighbouring counties over the years (I'm certainly not aware of any and would love to hear details if I'm wrong).

    What's worse though, is that they all jumped on the bandwagon as soon as there was a possibility a few years back that WIT would get the upgrade. Phil Hogan and Brendan Howlin were all for it, but of course the price of their support was basically that whole departments of the new university would decamp to KK and Wexford.

    I have to say, it would stick in my craw for anywhere in the SE to have a university campus on the back of a campaign that Waterford has run alone and and without any support from its neighbours for 30-40 years now. :mad:


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    #493
    Max Powers
    Registered Users Posts: 3,510 ✭✭✭Max Powers


    Sounds like WIT were the ones that were castigated on radio reports about suspending merger. articles in some papers at least highlight that CIT is way behind WIT. Pity they didnt do some more research on CITs comments that possibly pushed WITs suspension.
    Anyway, looks like the HEA are looking for answers and asking how much has been spent on this already. Conclusion, its getting a bigger mess. I really hope it can be salvaged. I think full Uni in short to medium term is a long shot by ourselves.


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    #494
    imacman
    Registered Users Posts: 690 ✭✭✭imacman


    Meathlass wrote: »
    The MOA was ratified by both Governing Bodies on the 13th October. WIT's President wouldn't have the authority to sign something like that on his own.
    .

    The MOA was signed by the President and the Chairman but not ratified by the governing body ( Irish independent today)It was at the meeting to sign this agreement that everything blew up as the governing body felt that the WIT president (ex president of Carlow IT !!!!) was rail roading them into the merger despite all of the recent independent report evidence against it.Also its obvious that John Taylor was got at to withdraw his report and has run for the hills now. This is completely about politics and not about whats best for WIT


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    #495
    BBM77
    Registered Users Posts: 1,878 ✭✭✭BBM77


    Max Powers wrote: »
    Sounds like WIT were the ones that were castigated on radio reports about suspending merger. articles in some papers at least highlight that CIT is way behind WIT. Pity they didnt do some more research on CITs comments that possibly pushed WITs suspension.
    Anyway, looks like the HEA are looking for answers and asking how much has been spent on this already. Conclusion, its getting a bigger mess. I really hope it can be salvaged. I think full Uni in short to medium term is a long shot by ourselves.

    I really hope the merger can’t be salvaged. I would rather see it stay as is or upgraded on its own. This merger carry on is, as has been said, 100% about politics and 0% about addressing any problems in Waterford or the south east. We need to start standing up to this kind of thing, we do not even have a mayor in the city anymore because of this small-minded political crap.


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    #496
    O Riain
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,107 ✭✭✭O Riain


    W.I.T really need to issue a statement on this


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    #497
    Psychedelic
    Registered Users Posts: 2,126 ✭✭✭Psychedelic


    This merger with IT Carlow was a disaster from the start, I hope it falls apart. Campuses across four counties would mean WIT and Waterford would actually lose out on what we already have. WIT should have full university status, not this merger TU nonsense.

    Sadly it looks like Waterford will never have its university. The three main parties have all broken their pre-election promises on the university issue and no doubt they'll make new pre-election promises only to renege again as soon as they get into power.


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    #498
    hardybuck
    Registered Users Posts: 5,167 ✭✭✭hardybuck


    Have WIT got themselves to blame for some of this? Apparently they haven't even submitted an application.

    The Dublin ITs, the Cork & Kerry ITs and the northwest ITs have all managed to agree mergers, but Waterford and Carlow can't?


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    #499
    fricatus
    Registered Users Posts: 5,081 ✭✭✭fricatus


    hardybuck wrote: »
    Have WIT got themselves to blame for some of this? Apparently they haven't even submitted an application.

    I think that's the whole point. WIT seem to have lost faith in the process and are pulling out of it. The way it's looking, it's just going to be another rebranding exercise like when the RTCs became IoTs. What Waterford needs is a university in the same club as UL, UCG, etc., not some second-division sop

    This is in the Irish Times this afternoon. The Minister is not for turning:
    Waterford IT told it will not get standalone university status

    That response was to be expected. I doubt WIT will be losing much sleep over it, since a different government will be in place in a couple of years.


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    #500
    imacman
    Registered Users Posts: 690 ✭✭✭imacman


    hardybuck wrote: »
    Have WIT got themselves to blame for some of this? Apparently they haven't even submitted an application.

    The Dublin ITs, the Cork & Kerry ITs and the northwest ITs have all managed to agree mergers, but Waterford and Carlow can't?

    Have a look at TU4Dublin.ie which is the grouping of DIT, TallaghtIT and Blanchardstown IT, they are moving forward in harmony and they state it will still be a difficult road to reach the TU criteria.So this idea that Carlow and Waterford will magically merge and become an TU is political fantasy , it would take lots of hard work and most importantly lots of buy-in and commitment from staff on the ground and that's just not there .Add to this the John Taylor report independent report which was withdrawn because of political pressure clearly shows that it merging with Carlow will slow down the process into the long term.

    And lets be clear that slow down is caused by the fact that Carlow have nowhere near enough PHD and masters level lecturers to proceed according to the criteria set down.So no amount of money or Political pressure will speed that up, it would be up to IT Carlow staff and as anyone knows who have studied at post-grad level it will take lots of time.It may suit the politicians working "the region needs this" angle to push this through but its not as simple as they are making out in the media and its not in the best interest of WIT.Carlow are a millstone we need to cut loose


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    #501
    hardybuck
    Registered Users Posts: 5,167 ✭✭✭hardybuck


    fricatus wrote: »
    I think that's the whole point. WIT seem to have lost faith in the process and are pulling out of it. The way it's looking, it's just going to be another rebranding exercise like when the RTCs became IoTs. What Waterford needs is a university in the same club as UL, UCG, etc., not some second-division sop

    This is in the Irish Times this afternoon. The Minister is not for turning:
    Waterford IT told it will not get standalone university status

    That response was to be expected. I doubt WIT will be losing much sleep over it, since a different government will be in place in a couple of years.

    I don't think any Government are going to sanction it. The existing universities are under pressure regarding their global rankings and they themselves should be merged.

    If Waterford gets Uni status in it's current state it'd be a rebranding anyway. It needs a bucket of money thrown at it and time.


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    #502
    fiachr_a
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,204 ✭✭✭fiachr_a


    Waterford United would be higher in the world ranking than Waterford Uni!


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    #503
    reni10
    Registered Users Posts: 1,152 ✭✭✭reni10


    Why don't WIT and UCC merge instead and just call it University South/Southeast?


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    #504
    Jamie2k9
    Registered Users Posts: 10,684 ✭✭✭✭Jamie2k9


    Thankfully WIT pullout, Carlow IT is really bad and would bring WIT down a lot if it went ahead.

    As for the FG/LAB plebs not rolling back, they will need something to get votes in 2016 and this will come up again.


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    #505
    Fate Amenable To Change
    Registered Users Posts: 223 ✭✭Fate Amenable To Change


    Hilarious is the day Labour decides to restrict chances of education for people. I'll laugh at anyone that tells me Labour has any values. Why are politicians so unable to do their job? If the Government was a properly run business WIT would WU by now. This stinks of politicians holding on to funding for the Universities in their own regions or areas. What are the reasoned objections Labour and Fine Gael have to WIT becoming WU? There was no mention of these before the elections... or even since.


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    #506
    7upfree
    Registered Users Posts: 2,124 ✭✭✭7upfree


    Fate Amenable To Change wrote: »
    Hilarious is the day Labour decides to restrict chances of education for people. I'll laugh at anyone that tells me Labour has any values. Why are politicians so unable to do their job? If the Government was a properly run business WIT would WU by now. This stinks of politicians holding on to funding for the Universities in their own regions or areas. What are the reasoned objections Labour and Fine Gael have to WIT becoming WU? There was no mention of these before the elections... or even since.

    http://youtu.be/htobTBlCvUU


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    #507
    tramoreman
    Registered Users Posts: 240 ✭✭tramoreman


    got this from wlrfm website

    IT Carlow TUI members express concern at merger with WIT.

    http://www.wlrfm.com/news-single.php?cat=1&id=13031


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    #508
    fiachr_a
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,204 ✭✭✭fiachr_a


    O Riain wrote: »
    W.I.T really need to issue a statement on this
    Here's your statement!

    http://businessetc.thejournal.ie/jerry-kennelly-tweak-1744432-Oct2014/


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    #509
    comeraghs
    Registered Users Posts: 957 ✭✭✭comeraghs


    This is very simple.

    WATERFORD IT is almost at the level to meet the criteria set by the government to be upgraded. Carlow is light years away from being ready.

    WIT should be judged on its merits and not held back by refusing to be used as a pawn by Howlin & Hogan to deliver parish pumps to their constituencies.

    NOBODY in Waterford should vote for FG or Labour UNLESS WIT is upgraded within the next 12 months.

    No more empty promises and excuses, UNIVERSITY FOR WATERFORD NOW.


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    #510
    PeteFalk78
    Closed Accounts Posts: 762 ✭✭✭PeteFalk78


    comeraghs wrote: »
    WATERFORD IT is almost at the level to meet the criteria set by the government to be upgraded. Carlow is light years away from being ready.

    Is that just your opinion or do you have anything to back it up?

    Just because WIT have been campaigning for University status for nearly 20 years it doesn't mean they are close. Tell that to the DOE and specifically Jan O'Sullivan who gave the WIT president a serious dressing down yesterday over their pullout http://www.thejournal.ie/it-carlow-waterford-1741496-Oct2014/


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    #511
    wellboytoo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,081 ✭✭✭wellboytoo


    PeteFalk78 wrote: »
    Is that just your opinion or do you have anything to back it up?

    Just because WIT have been campaigning for University status for nearly 20 years it doesn't mean they are close. Tell that to the DOE and specifically Jan O'Sullivan who gave the WIT president a serious dressing down yesterday over their pullout http://www.thejournal.ie/it-carlow-waterford-1741496-Oct2014/

    Quoting the Journal .Ie is akin to quoting the Dandy!
    Jan o Sullivan is a politician quoting the party Line so what would you expect.


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