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Waterford University discussion

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    #452
    tramoreman
    Registered Users Posts: 240 ✭✭tramoreman


    fiachr_a wrote: »
    Waterford shouldn't want a university. The ones in Ireland are mostly crap and are rapidly falling down the world rankings due to dumbing down of courses and lack of funding. Do we really need a town full of people with useless arts degrees? What can be done so? Which cities does Waterford twin with? Rochester for one in the States. They have a fine university higher up the rankings than any college in this country. Why not send someone from Waterford over there to try and persuade them to open a branch/campus of their college in Waterford City?

    totally disagree Waterford does need a university waterford is the only city that does not have a university i can not see Rochester opening a branch here there is not a chance of that happening.


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    #453
    MRnotlob606
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,642 ✭✭✭MRnotlob606


    chickenhawk wrote: »
    I don't think WIT should be upgraded to a university. I don't see the need for it. People in this country are obsessed by status. I went to UCD and don't feel that I would be any better off had I gone to Trinity or Sligo IT etc. A Institute of Technology is established to focus on different areas of study compared to universities and they should aim to excel in that area, not go trying to become a university because it sounds better.

    If you look at the worlds top third level colleges one that is always ranked within the top ten is Massachusettes Institute of Technology. They have become the best in their field and no one who goes to Harvard would ever look down at someone who went to MIT and say they went to an inferrior college.

    Just because it is not called a university does not mean it can not be one of the best third level institutions in the country or world.

    MIT was ranked was voted No.1 in the world this year.


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    #454
    O Riain
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,107 ✭✭✭O Riain


    MRnotlob606 wrote: »
    MIT was ranked was voted No.1 in the world this year.

    It is simply a question of funding. An I.T operates on scraps in comparison to a University. If the only thing WIT get is more money then I will gladly take that.

    People here sound like they are happy for us to keep receiving peanuts in terms of third level investment in our region which is ridiculous.


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    #455
    Deise67
    Closed Accounts Posts: 119 ✭✭Deise67


    I think what the vast majority would love to see is university status for Waterford in its own right , why oh why does everything have to be so convoluted , merge with this , partnership with that , you only have go to ardkeen to see how that's working , I have been in a & e 3 times this week , trolleys in corridors people waiting 24hrs + for beds ! if the university goes that way why bother ? to build campus in KK , WX & CW ! Why Waterford as the regional capital of the SE not have its own institution ? politics that's why ! unfortunately I don't see it changing ever ! sad but true , FG had a chance to be different but just reverted to type as soon as they got power ! hopeless the lot of them , I really despair !


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    #456
    Sully
    Moderators, Education Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 24,056 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sully


    Problem is that there is probably massive resistance to another fully fledged university and little funding available for a sector that's very weak. Labour bottled it (and some would say are the cause of the headache for funding the sector) and FG didn't see it as a critical issue they had to have. So Labour won out and a happy medium was reached.

    The problem now lies between the two colleges to thrash out a deal. I said this way back when the fingers were being pointed at government inaction and have known about the problems with a chit chat since before the election.

    Could benefit the South East, can't be greedy and demand only WIT be upgraded. We need to work and pull together.


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    #457
    robtri
    Registered Users Posts: 5,473 ✭✭✭robtri


    Sully wrote: »
    Problem is that there is probably massive resistance to another fully fledged university and little funding available for a sector that's very weak. Labour bottled it (and some would say are the cause of the headache for funding the sector) and FG didn't see it as a critical issue they had to have. So Labour won out and a happy medium was reached.

    The problem now lies between the two colleges to thrash out a deal. I said this way back when the fingers were being pointed at government inaction and have known about the problems with a chit chat since before the election.

    Could benefit the South East, can't be greedy and demand only WIT be upgraded. We need to work and pull together.

    pointing the finger at Labour is wrong, it is both Lab and FG fault...
    don't give us BS that FG didnt see it as a critical issue... WIT have been pounding on doors about this for years....

    This is typical political rubbish, passing it off blaming another party....
    it stinks of ohhhhh the recession is soletly FF fault....


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    #458
    Deise67
    Closed Accounts Posts: 119 ✭✭Deise67


    Sully wrote: »
    Problem is that there is probably massive resistance to another fully fledged university and little funding available for a sector that's very weak. Labour bottled it (and some would say are the cause of the headache for funding the sector) and FG didn't see it as a critical issue they had to have. So Labour won out and a happy medium was reached.

    The problem now lies between the two colleges to thrash out a deal. I said this way back when the fingers were being pointed at government inaction and have known about the problems with a chit chat since before the election.

    Could benefit the South East, can't be greedy and demand only WIT be upgraded. We need to work and pull together.

    greedy yer having a laugh ! shared like the vec's the hse & fas , read the Phoenix column in the news & star he has more fact & figures than me , we have been pillaged here in Waterford , perhaps one of the highest rates of urban unemployment in the land ! I agree that a university in Waterford would lift all boats in the SE , but it needs to be based here with the HQ here , not some political decision made to appease our county cousins ! WRTC where I went has been looking for university status since Moses was a boy ! where was Carlow then ? on by the way glad to know" it was the other boys fault "with haven't a uni !


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    #459
    7upfree
    Registered Users Posts: 2,124 ✭✭✭7upfree


    Sully wrote: »
    Could benefit the South East, can't be greedy and demand only WIT be upgraded. We need to work and pull together.

    Equality does not equal greed. Either full status or nothing. You can't hang this one on Labour. Saw this on Facebook the other night:

    http://www.munster-express.ie/local-news/fine-gaels-university-pledge/


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    #460
    7upfree
    Registered Users Posts: 2,124 ✭✭✭7upfree


    robtri wrote: »
    pointing the finger at Labour is wrong, it is both Lab and FG fault...
    don't give us BS that FG didnt see it as a critical issue... WIT have been pounding on doors about this for years....

    This is typical political rubbish, passing it off blaming another party....
    it stinks of ohhhhh the recession is soletly FF fault....

    Yep. Howlin doing the exact same on budget day. How is it that - educated - people keep defending these parties? It is truly incredible to watch.


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    #461
    Fate Amenable To Change
    Registered Users Posts: 223 ✭✭Fate Amenable To Change


    MRnotlob606 wrote: »
    MIT was ranked was voted No.1 in the world this year.

    If you knew the differences in what MIT and WIT... you;re equating both organisations because of a few letters. Are you alright in the head?

    The reason people want University is because 1 the funding and 2 university looks much better than IT unless its a top ranked college such as MIT that people already know about.... MIT is essentially a University in reality hence how it got to number 1 in university rankings. But hey if WIT is an IT it could be as good as MIT despite the massive differences in funding and freedoms allowed.


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    #462
    Fate Amenable To Change
    Registered Users Posts: 223 ✭✭Fate Amenable To Change


    Sully wrote: »
    FG didn't see it as a ... issue they had to have. .


    eah there you have it. FG didn't despite all promises assurances and decleaations to the opposite didn't want it. My viewpoint now is that Fine Gsel are worthless as a party as they do not hold to what they say or promise.


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    #463
    Sully
    Moderators, Education Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 24,056 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sully


    robtri wrote: »
    pointing the finger at Labour is wrong, it is both Lab and FG fault...
    don't give us BS that FG didnt see it as a critical issue... WIT have been pounding on doors about this for years....

    This is typical political rubbish, passing it off blaming another party....
    it stinks of ohhhhh the recession is soletly FF fault....

    The blame is clearly with both parties, i'm not denying that.

    What I am trying to get across is that there is obviously massive resistance and lobbying to prevent any other college be upgraded to university. Some say we have enough, others say it makes the purse strings tighter.

    The making of this government saw both sides thrash out policies and approaches different to what they may like. Labour got the Education post and decided in their wisdom a fully fledged University isn't an option despite a commitment by Fine Gael pre-election. It would appear that a compromise was a new type of University incorporating the region so that includes Carlow. Not what we were promised but not far removed from getting an upgrade either.

    What people are forgetting is the intense lobbying was for WIT to be upgraded and the South East region to get a University, so spreading it out is essential. One cannot be greedy and hold all the pies, WIT were in talks with Carlow before this government came to power. People without a clue insisted on here in recent years the delay was government inaction despite the government laying down a pledge and getting the groundwork on this almost immediately. Now we are seeing that the delay is negotiations between the colleges, as I said from day one to hoardes of criticism and people saying I was wrong.

    No other party bothered, not even Fianna Fail when we had a Minister and whose local councillors are jumping on the bandwagon of bashing the idea, to consider a University for Waterford. Sinn Fein are quiet on the issue.

    One thing I do believe is that Waterford needs to be the HQ being the largest campus and the campus with such a strong record amongst the ITs.


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    #464
    Deise67
    Closed Accounts Posts: 119 ✭✭Deise67


    Sully wrote: »
    The blame is clearly with both parties, i'm not denying that

    One thing I do believe is that Waterford needs to be the HQ being the largest campus and the campus with such a strong record amongst the ITs.

    common ground @ last !


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    #465
    Fate Amenable To Change
    Registered Users Posts: 223 ✭✭Fate Amenable To Change


    Sully wrote: »

    No.... party bothered.

    Its as simple as this. We heard loads from Fine Gael but they weren't bothered as soon as they got in.


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    #466
    7upfree
    Registered Users Posts: 2,124 ✭✭✭7upfree


    Sully wrote: »
    The blame is clearly with both parties, i'm not denying that.

    The blame lies firmly with FG as the senior party.
    Sully wrote: »
    Not what we were promised but not far removed from getting an upgrade either.

    A farce. A Frankenstein creation which will decimate WIT.
    Sully wrote: »
    People without a clue insisted on here in recent years the delay was government inaction despite the government laying down a pledge and getting the groundwork on this almost immediately.

    People without a clue? Such an arrogant, condescending statement. Who made you the guardian of the City's future? We were sold a pup. Reality.

    In your rush - again - to defend Fine Gael you put your City in second place. Well done.


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    #467
    Royal Legend
    Registered Users Posts: 2,655 ✭✭✭Royal Legend


    7upfree wrote: »
    Equality does not equal greed. Either full status or nothing. You can't hang this one on Labour. Saw this on Facebook the other night:

    http://www.munster-express.ie/local-news/fine-gaels-university-pledge/

    +1 What about that Sully, yet another broken promise. I feel sorry for certain people you having to be an apologists for FG on a weekly basis.

    (Apologies sully, did not mean to get personal)


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    #468
    fricatus
    Registered Users Posts: 5,081 ✭✭✭fricatus


    Seems as if the merger of the two institutions is on hold according to Dermot Keyes of the Munster Express on Twitter. I can't access it here so no link, sorry.

    7upfree wrote: »
    http://www.munster-express.ie/local-news/fine-gaels-university-pledge/

    LOL... if only politicians kept their promises, eh? :rolleyes:


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    #469
    Meathlass
    Registered Users Posts: 3,023 ✭✭✭Meathlass


    fricatus wrote: »
    Seems as if the merger of the two institutions is on hold according to Dermot Keyes of the Munster Express on Twitter. I can't access it here so no link, sorry.




    LOL... if only politicians kept their promises, eh? :rolleyes:

    Yes, even though a Memo of Agreement was signed on the 13th October, WIT want to now suspend the merger pending discussions with the Dept and the HEA. All this following a Governing Body meeting.

    Why did they bother signing the MOA on the 13th if they were unsure?


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    #470
    fricatus
    Registered Users Posts: 5,081 ✭✭✭fricatus


    Meathlass wrote: »
    Yes, even though a Memo of Agreement was signed on the 13th October, WIT want to now suspend the merger pending discussions with the Dept and the HEA. All this following a Governing Body meeting.

    Why did they bother signing the MOA on the 13th if they were unsure?

    Good question... it would be nice to know what's actually going on. Instead, all we're getting is posturing from all parties!


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    #471
    imacman
    Registered Users Posts: 690 ✭✭✭imacman


    I know one of the lecturers and the story is the president whent ahead and signed the MRU without consulting the governing body or the board. There has been war about this especially as the president is the ex president of Carlowit .
    Also the feeling amongst staff is they are being railroaded into this and the vast majority are against it as the vibes coming from Carlow are very aggressive and they want to be the senior partner.Staff think that the president is on Carlows side and isn't fighting for Waterford. What a mess we need to get out of this and go it alone


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    #472
    Meathlass
    Registered Users Posts: 3,023 ✭✭✭Meathlass


    imacman wrote: »
    I know one of the lecturers and the story is the president whent ahead and signed the MRU without consulting the governing body or the board. There has been war about this especially as the president is the ex president of Carlowit .
    Also the feeling amongst staff is they are being railroaded into this and the vast majority are against it as the vibes coming from Carlow are very aggressive and they want to be the senior partner.Staff think that the president is on Carlows side and isn't fighting for Waterford. What a mess we need to get out of this and go it alone

    The MOA was ratified by both Governing Bodies on the 13th October. WIT's President wouldn't have the authority to sign something like that on his own.

    I can't believe that Carlow would think they could be the senior partner since they're much smaller; it was always going to be a shared management with shared campus for political reasons and anyone who thought differently was kidding themselves.

    All EU and national funding is going towards clustering of HEIs. There won't be any funding for one IT to go on their own hence the various partnerships.


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    #473
    imacman
    Registered Users Posts: 690 ✭✭✭imacman


    The approach coming out of Carlow is absolutely aggressive
    They release a press statement saying

    "The agreement, signed by the Chairman and President of each institute, commits the institutes to the development of a multicampus Technological University with management and governance distributed across the campuses.
    This means that management will have responsibilities across campuses with no traditional headquarters. Increased connectedness between management, staff, students and stakeholders will be facilitated by this innovative management structure.
    The agreement will inform and facilitate the development of the business plan for the new university which the institutes intend to submit to the Higher Education Authority before the end of January 2015"

    From which WIT have to respond saying

    "Both Chairpersons and Presidents agreed to present the outcomes of their discussions to the governing bodies and stakeholders of both institutions for consultation and approval by late October 2014.
    In relation to the location of the headquarters, it was agreed by both parties that the President will have their principal office in Waterford and the majority of senior management positions would be also based in Waterford.
    The Institute was not aware that IT Carlow was issuing a press statement at this time and were not given an opportunity to input into or amend the statement"

    Add this to the independent report from professor John Taylor which said WIT could get Technological University status quicker on its own
    there seems to be no reason to go ahead with Carlow


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    #474
    Meathlass
    Registered Users Posts: 3,023 ✭✭✭Meathlass


    John Taylor has since withdrawn that report. Haven't the government stated that they will only be awarding TU status to clusters of HEIs not single bodies?

    What the hell are they playing at in both colleges. One issues a statement saying there will be joint management across shared campuses and the other says that most senior management positions will be in Waterford.

    Someone must be fudging the truth; I'd love to see the minutes from those meetings.


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    #475
    imacman
    Registered Users Posts: 690 ✭✭✭imacman


    If they cant agree on press statement how will they ever agree to merge , add to this the feeling of staff in both institutes are very negative about the proposal it looks dead in the water. Plus withdrawing the report is pointless as its in the media now


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    #476
    Max Powers
    Registered Users Posts: 3,510 ✭✭✭Max Powers


    Meathlass wrote: »
    John Taylor has since withdrawn that report. Haven't the government stated that they will only be awarding TU status to clusters of HEIs not single bodies?

    What the hell are they playing at in both colleges. One issues a statement saying there will be joint management across shared campuses and the other says that most senior management positions will be in Waterford.

    Someone must be fudging the truth; I'd love to see the minutes from those meetings.

    You gotta take reports commissioned by a party to back up themselves with a pinch of salt. This is now a complete mess, even if it is salvaged, there is bad blood there which is bad for the future, the only thing that can save it is a begrudging agreement between both or the govt knocking heads and making a decision for them. Either way, WIT Tech Uni is years away. It was fairly inevitable that something like this would happen, Waterford and the SE needs a Uni and this is a mish-mash-mess from FG.
    V.Disappointing


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    #477
    7upfree
    Registered Users Posts: 2,124 ✭✭✭7upfree


    Fine Gael and their cohorts strike again.:mad:


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    #478
    imacman
    Registered Users Posts: 690 ✭✭✭imacman


    Even if it gets this forced through by the Government as it is political expedient there is no guarantee that it will get through the international criteria that has been set down for a technological university ( and as the way things are progressing now is you look in detail at those criteria there is no way that this proposal will succeed in the short term) .

    For an example of how things should be developing have a look at TU4Dublin.ie which is the grouping of DIT, TallaghtIT and Blanchardstown IT, they are moving forward in harmony and they state it will still a difficult road to reach the criteria.So this idea that Carlow and Waterford will magically merge and become an TU is fantasy , it would take lots of hard work and most importantly lots of buy-in and commitment from staff on the ground and that's just not there .The facts are the feeling amongst staff are completely negative towards the whole proposal now

    Also Carlow and Waterford will have to merge as ITs before going forward to the with technological university application. So the worst case and quite possible scenario if the proposal fails we could be left with a lame duck Institute of Technology of the south east with lots of bad blood between both campuses.These are facts you wont hear from the politicians but if this goes ahead and then goes pear shaped it could actually cause a lot of damage to the region .


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    #479
    Meathlass
    Registered Users Posts: 3,023 ✭✭✭Meathlass


    imacman wrote: »
    Also Carlow and Waterford will have to merge as ITs before going forward to the with technological university application. So the worst case and quite possible scenario if the proposal fails we could be left with a lame duck Institute of Technology of the south east with lots of bad blood between both campuses.These are facts you wont hear from the politicians but if this goes pear shaped it could actually cause a lot of damage to the region .

    The problem is though, the international funding is being funneled towards universities so if both WIT and ITC decide to part and just continue on as Institutes then they are shut out of funding streams which are looking for more and more collaboration between partners.


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    #480
    wellboytoo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,081 ✭✭✭wellboytoo


    wellboytoo wrote: »
    A bit of a peeing competition going on between WIT and CIT heads at the moment which is unfortunate to say the least if predictable.
    Carlow was always years behind Waterford to scale the very high bar set by the full time mandarins in the department and other parties interested in stopping WIT achieving Uni status.
    They knew from the get go this forced marriage could not happen in the timescale of this government and would probably implode with local parochial infighting.
    We need to pressurise the local TDs and government to keep the bar high but allow WIT achieve Uni status and allow CIT merge when it is ready otherwise the whole thing will collapse with blame being pointed at WIT and CIT and will never be heard of for another 30 years.

    I bumped this thread with the above comment, classic kick the can down the road and blame us when it doesn't work, which is what will be said to you all by the Politicians when the y come knocking for your vote again "sure we tried but .."


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    #481
    imacman
    Registered Users Posts: 690 ✭✭✭imacman


    Meathlass wrote: »
    The problem is though, the international funding is being funneled towards universities so if both WIT and ITC decide to part and just continue on as Institutes then they are shut out of funding streams which are looking for more and more collaboration between partners.

    Absolutely funding is an issue but is creating a dysfunctional organization the answer to this. Because if this is forced through that's what we will have.


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