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Waterford GAA Discussion Thread 2013- Mod Warning Post #1
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I'd agree strongly with a lot of this. I'd go with an eight team senior and possible an 8 team intermediate premier/senior B.
In the premier/senior b i'd take the four bottom senior teams, as well as the eastern and western finalists. Any more would dilute this championship also in my opinion. As things stand, you could have a DLS, Ballygunner or Mount Sion second string in that group.
Rest of the intermediate teams in one all county championship. Not sure about junior - travel might be an issue for junior players.
Maybe the Junior could be looked at differently and split into groups to keep it more local.
I am sure that many of the teams that are getting beaten year in year out - but still will never be relegated would like the opportunity to partake in a championship where they are more competitive - they may even gain confidence and improve and may be in a position to take on the big boys..
Being in a championship you are not good enough for must be a motivational nightmare - year on year.
there is just simply too many teams that are not good enough - and as a consequence - too many bad games - time to spice it up and get the hurling public in Waterford enthused enough to atttend games again0 -
You'd want 8 teams in the Senior Hurling Championship - probably DLS, Ballygunner, Mt. Sion, Passage, Abbeyside, Dungarvan, Fourmilewater and maybe Lismore/Roanmore for the 8th team. All of these teams have beaten each other in the last few seasons. Lismore might be on the way down, Roanmore seem to be on the up. I think six would be too few.
Football championship needs to be down to 8 also. There'll still be the monopoly of the big 3 teams but at least it can get rid of some of the less competitive games.0 -
You'd want 8 teams in the Senior Hurling Championship - probably DLS, Ballygunner, Mt. Sion, Passage, Abbeyside, Dungarvan, Fourmilewater and maybe Lismore/Roanmore for the 8th team. All of these teams have beaten each other in the last few seasons. Lismore might be on the way down, Roanmore seem to be on the up. I think six would be too few.
Football championship needs to be down to 8 also. There'll still be the monopoly of the big 3 teams but at least it can get rid of some of the less competitive games.
You would prefer if Tallow, Lismore and Ballyduff moved into East Cork would you? Its not as if Mt Sion and Abbeyside have been setting the championship alight in recent years. Abbeyside has never won a senior hurling title. Abbeyside are not world beaters. Neither are Mt Sion. In fact there are no world beaters in Waterford hurling and football.0 -
What County has as few as 8 teams in their Senior championship? Where is the template for success.
Passage did not make the quarter finals in 2012, so if they brought this in that year they would have not been Senior last year...they won the County like for god sake. 2007 Ballyduff won, 2008 DLS beat Fourmile by a point in the quarters, dunno who they bet in the semi, and bet Abbeyside by a point as well...and then won Munster.
2009 Lismore threw it away v Ballygunner. 2010 DLS were class in fairness. And then 2011 it was a fairly lobsided draw in fairness. Those were probably the worst two years for the general standard I think. 2012, Dungarvan were a young team in their first final but it was very competitive all round up until that game. And of course last year Passage won.
I thought Roanmore would be scrapping at the death with Ardmore this year and look how that's panned out. I think this is a stupid idea, to be blunt.
I'd be all for reform in the lower grades though, given the quality of hurlers that no play in those grades (Colin Dunford is playing Junior hurling at the moment.) The Junior could easily be revamped and improved without even the all County structures. It's a farce that the second string Senior teams play in their own Competition.
They could maybe even have a Junior A and Junior B if they went all County with the intermediate, as there are ten teams in the West alone.
But demoting Senior teams isn't a good idea, and is idle talk in it's purest form. Do any of ye actually believe the clubs would accept this?0 -
Mountainlad wrote: »What County has as few as 8 teams in their Senior championship? Where is the template for success.
Passage did not make the quarter finals in 2012, so if they brought this in that year they would have not been Senior last year...they won the County like for god sake. 2007 Ballyduff won, 2008 DLS beat Fourmile by a point in the quarters, dunno who they bet in the semi, and bet Abbeyside by a point as well...and then won Munster.
2009 Lismore threw it away v Ballygunner. 2010 DLS were class in fairness. And then 2011 it was a fairly lobsided draw in fairness. Those were probably the worst two years for the general standard I think. 2012, Dungarvan were a young team in their first final but it was very competitive all round up until that game. And of course last year Passage won.
I thought Roanmore would be scrapping at the death with Ardmore this year and look how that's panned out. I think this is a stupid idea, to be blunt.
I'd be all for reform in the lower grades though, given the quality of hurlers that no play in those grades (Colin Dunford is playing Junior hurling at the moment.) The Junior could easily be revamped and improved without even the all County structures. It's a farce that the second string Senior teams play in their own Competition.
They could maybe even have a Junior A and Junior B if they went all County with the intermediate, as there are ten teams in the West alone.
But demoting Senior teams isn't a good idea, and is idle talk in it's purest form. Do any of ye actually believe the clubs would accept this?
Fact of the matter is that we have teams in the senior championship who aren't senior standard.0 -
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Fact of the matter is that we have teams in the senior championship who aren't senior standard.
Roanmore weren't Senior standard last year. Passage came through the same failed system, in 2008 (I believe that was the year they won the Intermediate).
I really doubt an 8 team championship is going to improve Waterford hurling.0 -
Mountainlad wrote: »Roanmore weren't Senior standard last year. Passage came through the same failed system, in 2008 (I believe that was the year they won the Intermediate).
I really doubt an 8 team championship is going to improve Waterford hurling.
Passage won intermediate in 2007, roanmore werent senior standard last year but in the space of a few months they have drawn with passage, beaten fourmile and narrowly beaten by lismore, whos to say a team who is getting beaten this year like ardmore arent too far away from a good team? Just because yee Arent enjoying the hurling doesnt give people the right to take senior hurling away from any player, because thats wat every hurler wanted to be, a senior hurler. Some of these clubs made the hard journey to actually win the intermediate and then stay up. It wud be just unfair and cruel to a team. Leave it at 12 i say, a championship with 6 or 8 teams will be over before its started and yee will be asking for more games.0 -
Top drawer wrote: »Passage won intermediate in 2007, roanmore werent senior standard last year but in the space of a few months they have drawn with passage, beaten fourmile and narrowly beaten by lismore, whos to say a team who is getting beaten this year like ardmore arent too far away from a good team? Just because yee Arent enjoying the hurling doesnt give people the right to take senior hurling away from any player, because thats wat every hurler wanted to be, a senior hurler. Some of these clubs made the hard journey to actually win the intermediate and then stay up. It wud be just unfair and cruel to a team. Leave it at 12 i say, a championship with 6 or 8 teams will be over before its started and yee will be asking for more games.
Just so we're clear, I agree with you entirely, I was making the same point about Roanmore.0 -
Mountainlad wrote: »Roanmore weren't Senior standard last year. Passage came through the same failed system, in 2008 (I believe that was the year they won the Intermediate).
I really doubt an 8 team championship is going to improve Waterford hurling.
Of course the clubs wouldn't accept it
Lismore and Ballyduff were much better teams a few years ago.
How can a championship were so many teams can be hammered year after year, yet still retain senior status as there are clubs even worse than them in the grade be good for waterford hurling. At the start of the year there are a few teams who haven't a hope of winning or being relegated.
The gulf between senior and intermediate is huge, putting the weaker senior teams into a restructured, competitive intermediate championship may go some way to closing the gap - in fact it may not do that but will at least give close games that's all people want. Not whitewashes0 -
Of course the clubs wouldn't accept it
Lismore and Ballyduff were much better teams a few years ago.
How can a championship were so many teams can be hammered year after year, yet still retain senior status as there are clubs even worse than them in the grade be good for waterford hurling. At the start of the year there are a few teams who haven't a hope of winning or being relegated.
The gulf between senior and intermediate is huge, putting the weaker senior teams into a restructured, competitive intermediate championship may go some way to closing the gap - in fact it may not do that but will at least give close games that's all people want. Not whitewashes
Slobbery that's ok, I take from previous posts that you do go to games. But the bottom line is some who might make a call for this are not going to games regularly. Bemoan it if you're sick of whitewashes fine, but if your not attending these games than what right is their to complain?
Especially when the good people of a club like Ballyduff go watch their team and want to see their players playing Senior hurling. I don't think Lismore are that bad either, they just need a good coach. Enough hurlers in there.0 -
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Mountainlad wrote: »Just so we're clear, I agree with you entirely, I was making the same point about Roanmore.
Apologies, got mixed up, but my point still carries to the other ppl arguing for the 8 or god forbid a 6 team championship, nobody wants to see a whitewash fair enough lads but my point is just because teams arent challenging for a title, doesnt mean they dont have there own goals of a quarter final or semi final, some teams cud be happy with just staying senior and proudly be a senior club. Ask ardmore wud they rather be beaten in senior while giving it a good go to stay up or just playing intermediate and winning here or there,, put urselves back in your playing days and see wud yee be happy being a senior club then being told actually ur being relegated because u wont win title.0 -
Rumours are the premiership is being cut to 4 teams with a premier championship being set up for the rest0
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Top drawer wrote: »Apologies, got mixed up, but my point still carries to the other ppl arguing for the 8 or god forbid a 6 team championship, nobody wants to see a whitewash fair enough lads but my point is just because teams arent challenging for a title, doesnt mean they dont have there own goals of a quarter final or semi final, some teams cud be happy with just staying senior and proudly be a senior club. Ask ardmore wud they rather be beaten in senior while giving it a good go to stay up or just playing intermediate and winning here or there,, put urselves back in your playing days and see wud yee be happy being a senior club then being told actually ur being relegated because u wont win title.
Exactly and I doubt anyone of us would have given Passage a prayer last year. DLS and BG might be the two best around but I don't think anyone should be putting themselves on a pedestal, DLS themselves learned that the hard way with the 3-3-1 thing.
And if you look at Cork, Dublin, Galway, Offaly, not many would see those championships as more than a two team race (in fact three teams are a shorter price with the bookies than DLS), and Offay is the only one with a lesser population.0 -
Having a more competitive senior club championship does not mean teams demoted to a senior B/intermediate premier club championship dont have the same opporunity to be senior county champions. In Clare the top 3 Senior B teams go into the quarter final of the senior A competition.
Waterford will be playing in the second division next year but if we were good enough we still have the opportunity to win the national league. Therefore while you could have 22 clubs competing to win the senior county title, the teams start off in two different structures and if good enough they can go all the way. They are playing other clubs at their own level with more competitive games and less one sided whitewash's. You can still have your Ardmore's, An Ring's, Roanmore's, Tallow's, Passage's winning senior county titles but they must first be the best within their own group before they go further, if not then they have the senior B siliverware to compete for.0 -
conditioned games wrote: »Having a more competitive senior club championship does not mean teams demoted to a senior B/intermediate premier club championship dont have the same opporunity to be senior county champions. In Clare the top 3 Senior B teams go into the quarter final of the senior A competition.
Waterford will be playing in the second division next year but if we were good enough we still have the opportunity to win the national league. Therefore while you could have 22 clubs competing to win the senior county title, the teams start off in two different structures and if good enough they can go all the way. They are playing other clubs at their own level with more competitive games and less one sided whitewash's. You can still have your Ardmore's, An Ring's, Roanmore's, Tallow's, Passage's winning senior county titles but they must first be the best within their own group before they go further, if not then they have the senior B siliverware to compete for.
And how does that affect representation in Intermediate Munster champ. Same people bemoaning the Senior champ will be looking at that, but if you take 4 of the best Intermediate teams out of it then you surely aren't going to improve that record?0 -
Mountainlad wrote: »And how does that affect representation in Intermediate Munster champ. Same people bemoaning the Senior champ will be looking at that, but if you take 4 of the best Intermediate teams out of it then you surely aren't going to improve that record?
It is the same structure as in the cork, the premier intermediate champions would represent the intermediate grade.
It's just a suggestion, basically the championship is full of cakewalks until the semi final stage nearly - I know some might say it has always been like that but that doesn't mean it always have to be like that, of course every team wants to be senior, give a team 5 years of being hammered at senior but still make a quarter final to be hammered again and see where they want to be - if that what guys want - just the label of senior even though they are miles away than that is not something to fight for.
Look I have been there, as a player it is not something I would have agreed with, but in retrospect playing at a level the team was suited for and not just have a label would have been more beneficial instead of stuck in a cycle of doom0 -
Mountainlad wrote: »And how does that affect representation in Intermediate Munster champ. Same people bemoaning the Senior champ will be looking at that, but if you take 4 of the best Intermediate teams out of it then you surely aren't going to improve that record?
The senior b/ intermediate premier teams that dont get promoted ie not one of the 3 that go into the senior A quarters could represent the county at intermediate in munster.0 -
Mountainlad wrote: »Roanmore weren't Senior standard last year. Passage came through the same failed system, in 2008 (I believe that was the year they won the Intermediate).
I really doubt an 8 team championship is going to improve Waterford hurling.
DLS just beat Roanmore by 14 points at the weekend. Passage's team was much improved by the acquisition of an All Star forward.
DLS and Ballygunner in particular know they'll have 4 fairly facile group wins and maybe one tight group game before a quarter final. Going on previous years, one or both of them will hammer a team in a quarter or semi final as well.
This isn't just about those two dominant teams though. I would much prefer to see an eight team competition with each team playing each other, resulting seven competitive championship games each.
I would do away with the quarter finals, as things stand they are a bit of a waste of time. Top four go into semi finals, bottom four go into a relegation semi. You could get one of the so called big teams in that relegation mix if they lose a game or two, and a good churn between clubs. I think that'd be really exciting, every game would be massive. I think fans would get behind that and you'd see larger attendances at games.
As things stand you see ageing teams hang on to senior status by their fingertips for years despite getting hammerings, before eventually going down.
This year we definitely have three to four teams who are a decent bit off the pace. I think that those teams would be far better served in a competitive Senior B competition. If the likes of a Cappoquin for example had a lot of young players in need of blooding, they'd be far better off developing there than being picked apart by top senior sides in lob sided games.
Looking at the intermediate as it is, would the likes of the Brickey Rangers or Shamrocks be competitive at senior level? They look to be among the better western intermediate sides.0 -
Top drawer wrote: »Rumours are the premiership is being cut to 4 teams with a premier championship being set up for the rest
Joking aside why not look to closer to home and the division 1 of the national hurling league as a model0 -
DLS just beat Roanmore by 14 points at the weekend. Passage's team was much improved by the acquisition of an All Star forward.
DLS and Ballygunner in particular know they'll have 4 fairly facile group wins and maybe one tight group game before a quarter final. Going on previous years, one or both of them will hammer a team in a quarter or semi final as well.
This isn't just about those two dominant teams though. I would much prefer to see an eight team competition with each team playing each other, resulting seven competitive championship games each.
I would do away with the quarter finals, as things stand they are a bit of a waste of time. Top four go into semi finals, bottom four go into a relegation semi. You could get one of the so called big teams in that relegation mix if they lose a game or two, and a good churn between clubs. I think that'd be really exciting, every game would be massive. I think fans would get behind that and you'd see larger attendances at games.
As things stand you see ageing teams hang on to senior status by their fingertips for years despite getting hammerings, before eventually going down.
This year we definitely have three to four teams who are a decent bit off the pace. I think that those teams would be far better served in a competitive Senior B competition. If the likes of a Cappoquin for example had a lot of young players in need of blooding, they'd be far better off developing there than being picked apart by top senior sides in lob sided games.
Looking at the intermediate as it is, would the likes of the Brickey Rangers or Shamrocks be competitive at senior level? They look to be among the better western intermediate sides.
I agree with you RE the senior, of the intermediate sides in the west the teams that look to be putting the correct structures in underage and are certainly on the way up are Brickeys, Cappoquin and Ballysaggart - not sure how any would fair out at senior just now be certainly on the right track, they all seem to be producing good young players consistently enough now at this stage...
At this point in the senior we have 4 groups of teams:
The probable's,
The possibles,
The no hopers,
The absolute no hopers (relegation fodder)
Why not just limit it to the probable's and the possibles???0 -
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I'd love to see something like the senior b mentioned brought in. How many lads like Dunford or last years minors are on junior teams too? I'd throw in regional teams like Kerry have to give junior players a way to get a game at senior level if they're good enough without needing to transfer club. At worst its another way to get people to go to games, imagine the craic at an east vs west regional teams match!0
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I'd love to see something like the senior b mentioned brought in. How many lads like Dunford or last years minors are on junior teams too? I'd throw in regional teams like Kerry have to give junior players a way to get a game at senior level if they're good enough without needing to transfer club. At worst its another way to get people to go to games, imagine the craic at an east vs west regional teams match!
The senior B proposal could be an option but the group team scenario was tried before and didn't work. The loyalty was always to their own clubs firstly and was never taken seriously. In theory its a great idea but in reality I doubt if players would ever seriously commit to it.0 -
The senior B proposal could be an option but the group team scenario was tried before and didn't work. The loyalty was always to their own clubs firstly and was never taken seriously. In theory its a great idea but in reality I doubt if players would ever seriously commit to it.
It didn't work before but that doesn't mean it wouln't work again, he last time it was tried the divisonal teams got hockeyed.
I think a divisonal team made up of Brian O Halloran,Tadgh de Burca, the three Bennett's, Chris O Gorman, Finan Murray, Shane Murray, Andy Molumby, Aaron O'Sullivan, , Colin Dunford, Daragh Fives, Tom Devine, the Phelans from Ballinameela, Brick Walsh, jack mullaney, Donie Breatnach, Liam o loanaian, Shane and Colm roche might have more of a crack off it than was the case back then.
In fact I think a team could be made up from Cappoquin, Tourin, Ballysaggart, modeligo, ballinameela and shamrocks and a second team could be made up of Ardmore (if relegated), Ring, Stradbally, colligan and Brickey rangers would give a good account of themselves in the senior championship.
The landscape of Waterford hurling has changed hugely since the divisions were last tried out, now a lot of junior and intermediate clubs in the west are producing serious underage intercounty and 3rd level hurlers with Harty cup experience thanks to the dungarvan colleges and Blackwater schools.
These lads are used to playing together and with teams from other clubs on county and school panels all the time, I think the divisional teams would work better now than ever before0 -
While waiting between games last night I spoke with a person from ballyduff and the conversation was all about hurling and the standard of the club championship. In his opinion,Tallow,Ballyduff and Lismore will all be fighting relegation over the next 3 years solely due to not having numbers coming through from underage. We included Ardmore in this for this year which in reality would only leave 3 competitive senior clubs in the west. We spoke about the parish rule which exists in Tipp and cork and its pros and cons but when he stated that in the parish of Cappoquin there are 4 clubs and in the parish of Lismore there are 2 it really is crazy to think that all can survive long term.
It would be very hard to enforce Parish Rule in Waterford. If it was, what would be done with Fourmilewater. The other half of the Fourmilewater Parish is Newcastle which is in Tipperary. At present Fourmilewater and Nire while are seperate clubs are sister clubs. The Nire is one half of the Touraneena (Sliabh gCua/St Mary's) Parish. And at the other end of the county, is anyone able to define boundaries when it comes to Parishes in the city.0 -
The blue blaa wrote: »Do you think lismore & ballsaggart would remain as one club as they do upto U21 as St.Carthages makes complete sense to an outsider they have a few nice lads comi g through underage. As for Cappoquinn could they not do similar an join up an play as an area rather then a parish, its a sticky one I know but if a lad is to have any chance of making it as a county hurler he needs to be offered the best opportunities and put the whole Bull McCabe crack behind them (ducks for cover)
How would it work in the city??
I dont know is it a problem with majority of clubs having enough numbers,but for me as is said many a time on here what is needed is a county board who understand GAA.What we need is all county championship for all adult ages. The county aint a massive one so I can't see why its not after being done.
What about the Brickeys. The area they pick from is in the Parish of Dungarvan. Can anyone see a real die hard Brickey person pulling on a Dungarvan shirt.0 -
The blue blaa wrote: »Do you think lismore & ballsaggart would remain as one club as they do upto U21 as St.Carthages makes complete sense to an outsider they have a few nice lads comi g through underage. As for Cappoquinn could they not do similar an join up an play as an area rather then a parish, its a sticky one I know but if a lad is to have any chance of making it as a county hurler he needs to be offered the best opportunities and put the whole Bull McCabe crack behind them (ducks for cover)
How would it work in the city??
I dont know is it a problem with majority of clubs having enough numbers,but for me as is said many a time on here what is needed is a county board who understand GAA.What we need is all county championship for all adult ages. The county aint a massive one so I can't see why its not after being done.
What about the Brickeys. The area they pick from is in the Parish of Dungarvan. Can anyone see a real die hard Brickey person pulling on a Dungarvan shirt. The same with Geraldines and Ballinameela. OK they do so at underage level with Saint Olivers, but I have heard a number of people from both Geraldines and Ballinameela say that hell would freeze over before they would wear the other sides shirt at adult level. The natural thing there if parish rule existed would be to have a Saint Olivers club from adult level down, but i cant see it happen.0 -
Couldn't agree with you more re our county board but as regards those clubs joining id say it wouldn't happen because of all sides looking to hold their identity instead of thinking outside the box.
we have a situation at junior level in the east where there are only 5 teams and 4 of them qualify for the semi finals! These championships are crying out to be played on a county basis but then that draws up the old argument of the need of both eastern and western boards.
In the west there is only four clubs and three of them as far as i know qualify for the hurling semi finals. The whole thing is a joke. We should have all county competitions with years.0 -
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**** intermediate hurlingMountainlad wrote: »And how does that affect representation in Intermediate Munster champ. Same people bemoaning the Senior champ will be looking at that, but if you take 4 of the best Intermediate teams out of it then you surely aren't going to improve that record?0 -
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No bets are being taken on the De La Salle vs Passage game! Incase they decide to throw another0
This discussion has been closed.
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