Kilkenny GAA Discussion Thread Mod Warning Post # 5885 #4894 & #5202

tbiggertycome · 15-09-2014 5:28pm

GFish wrote: »

Nobody could possibly know the answer to that.

Very true.

There were so many turning points were a call one way or the other could have changed the course of the game. However as soon as you make one change to the game then everything after it will be altered by that decision we're getting a bit philosophical here but you can't say if he made this decision then this, this and this would have happened. Of course his decisions will alter the game but you can't say which team would have won because of it.

Sorry for the double post. I was trying to do a little edit and the post is so big it wouldn't allow me. I thought I was editing it and then found it was double posted.

Yes it took about 3.5 hours watching the match again pausing, rewinding etc. to get it all down. I have more than what I put up but that's enough to annoy ye with.

The growler · 15-09-2014 5:29pm

tbiggertycome wrote: »

I've been trying to figure out what happened in the drawn game All Ireland. I had a very thorough look at it yesterday and a couple of things stood out.

While everyone agrees it was a great game why was it so high scoring if the defences played so well? It was the highest scoring 70 minute All Ireland ever!

The first thing that occurred to me while re-watching it on the Monday was how many times lads got away with a lot of steps taken. So I had a look closely at it.

In the game NO ONE was called for over carrying!

When I counted them I was only counting them if they took 8+ steps.
Tipp had 13 calls not given against them for over carrying,
Kilkenny had 3 calls not given against for over carrying.

TBH I was surprised at how few Kilkenny had when I finished counting. When I was counting them I didn't include if they were obviously fouled in the first few steps and were given a bit of leeway. If a forward isn't forced to put the ball on the hurl it gives the defender no chance and leads to lads having to foul or let them past you.

I don't know if B Gavin will call it anymore than B Kelly did. Even looking at both Camogie finals yesterday as far as I saw there was only 1 call for steps, while in both games all sides were overcarrying all day long.

I'm not trying to have a go at B Kelly here I'm just pointing out some facts I gleamed.
I also counted what I would term possessions having the ball in the hand or controlling it on the ground.
Tipp had 170
Kilkenny had 176

Tipp used 63% of the possession well 32% poorly and were fouled 5% of their possessions
Kilkenny used 65% well 29% poorly and were fouled 6% of their possessions

The top 5 players in Possession for each team were:
Tipp
Noel McGrath 23 possessions- 65% good use- 31% poor use- 4% fouled
Paudric Maher 20- 55% good- 40% poor - 5% fouled
Kieran Bergin 15- 60% good- 33% poor - 7% fouled
Bonnar Maher 15- 60% good- 27% poor - 13% fouled
John O'Dwyer 15- 80% good- 20% poor - 0% fouled

Kilkenny
Richie Hogan 18 possessions- 78% good use- 17% poor use- 5% fouled
TJ Reid 17- 53% good- 41% poor - 6% fouled
C Fennelly 16- 44% good- 44% poor - 12% fouled
Paul Murphy 14- 79% good- 21% poor - 0% fouled
Richie Power 14- 79% good- 7% poor - 14% fouled

Hooks Blocks and Tackles
Tipp
1-7-9 total=17
Kilkenny
1-7-8 total=16

Tipps top depossessors
J Barry 3=3 tackles
G Ryan 3=1 block & 2 tackles
Bonnar 2=1 hook & 1 tackle

Kilkennys top depossessors
Larkin 4=1 hook, 2 blocks & 1 tackle
Buckley 3=2 blocks & 1 tackle
TJ 2=2 tackles
P Murph 2=1 block & 1 tackle
Jackie 2=1 block & 1 tackle

The following are for actual frees called by B Kelly

Persistantly fouled players
Tipp
Bonnar 2- both=pulling/pushing/trip fouls
all the rest fouled once.

Kilkenny
Larkin 3- 1=pulling/ pushing/tripping 1=holding 1=charging
Power 2- both=pulling/pushing/trip fouls
C Fennelly 2- both=pulling/pushing/trip fouls
all the rest fouled once

Persistant foulers
Tipp
P Stapelton 3- 3= push/pull/trip
D Gleeson 2- 1=pick up 1=charging
P Maher 2- both= push/pull/trip
Callinan 2- 1= push/pull/trip 1=striking
all the rest only had one.

Kilkenny
Larkin 3- 1=chop 1= push/pull/trip 1=the fictious diving call which is not in the GAA rule book
Jackie 2- both= push/pull/trip
B Hogan 2- 1= push/pull/trip 1= charging (if you could call it that)
all the rest fouled once

These are for the blatant calls I saw which B Kelly didn't plus the ones he gave.
Foulers
Tipp
Callanan -5, 3 extra calls were all steps on not given
Stapelton -5, 2 extra were 1= push/pull/trip 1=holding
P Maher 4, 2 extra were 1 =steps 1= holding
J Barry 3, 3 extra were 1=steps 2=push/pull/trip
Gleeson 2, as per B Kelly
Barrett 2, 2 extra were steps
S McGrath 2, 1 extra was steps
Woodlock 2, 1 extra was steps
Bonnar 2, 2 extra were steps
the only extras were Lar and M Cahill neither penalised in game but both should have had steps called against them. Remember I'm talking 8+ steps not 5,6 or 7 for these extra calls

Kilkenny
Larkin 6, extras were 1=steps & 2=push/pull/trip
R Hogan 2, extras were both steps
P Murphy 2, extra was 1=push/pull/trip
Jackie 2, no extra
B Hogan 2, no extra

Fouled player
Tipp
Bonnar 3, not given 1=push/pull/trip
Barrett 2, not given 1=push/pull/trip
P Maher1, not given 1=push/pull/trip

Kilkenny
Larkin 4, not given 1=push/pull/trip
Power 3, not given 1=push/pull/trip
TJ Reid 3, not given 2=push/pull/trip
Colin 3, not given 1=holding

These I was only calling if I thought it was blatant and obvious if B Kelly let the play run and there was an advantage to the team in possession I didn't count it.

Those suggesting that B Kelly didn't have a large influence on the game are burying their heads in the sand! Do I think he was blatantly biased towards on side? No. Do I think he made mistakes and calls which make him look biased towards one team? A little. Did he set out be biased? I don't think so for a minute.

Did he's decisions wheather intended or not favour one team over the other, I think they did to a degree.

One of the most notably things is how well Tipp played and how absolutely everything sailed over the bar for them even under pressure. Our lads have plenty of scope for improvement. The real question is can they get that out of themselves in the time they have?

I don't know how you could do such an in-depth analysis and fail to spot that Richie Power wasn't penalised for a blatant foul in the lead up to kk's second goal (he's not in your list of kk players who got away with fouling).

Interesting analysis all the same especially regarding steps not being penalised. This happens all too frequently unfortunately.

tbiggertycome · 15-09-2014 5:34pm

The growler wrote: »

I don't know how you could do such an in-depth analysis and fail to spot that Richie Power wasn't penalised for a blatant foul in the lead up to kk's second goal (he's not in your list of kk players who got away with fouling).

Interesting analysis all the same especially regarding steps not being penalised. This happens all too frequently unfortunately.

You're quite right I had it on my spreadsheet for a pull/push/trip not given. It brings his tally of fouls to 1, a very important one though.

The steps was really shocking TBH i tought it a bit myself on the day but no one else was calling for them so I never really said much and kind of forgot about it until I watched it again on the Monday.

Grats · 15-09-2014 5:51pm

Well done tbiggertycome on that in depth analysis. Presume Cody will use similar information and stats when planning for the replay. With regards to the over carrying - I find it interesting as I had been discussing the very same issue with friends over the last while. In fact we had prime examples of it again in the under 21 last Sat. While not wanting to detract from the Clare team I do think their game is built around over carrying and indeed throwing the ball. Not one was blown by the ref last Sat.

Brian Gavin could well be a different kettle of fish. A bit of home work by our management team would establish his hobby horses. If it is discovered that he doesn't blow over carrying and persistent fouling then Cody may fight fire with fire.

robbiezero · 15-09-2014 5:58pm

tbiggertycome wrote: »

You're quite right I had it on my spreadsheet for a pull/push/trip not given. It brings his tally of fouls to 1, a very important one though.

The steps was really shocking TBH i tought it a bit myself on the day but no one else was calling for them so I never really said much and kind of forgot about it until I watched it again on the Monday.

Very surprising alright.
Would I be right in saying two of the missed steps against callinan were for the two points he scored off his left in second half after taking on jj?

tbiggertycome · 15-09-2014 6:53pm

robbiezero wrote: »

Very surprising alright.
Would I be right in saying two of the missed steps against callinan were for the two points he scored off his left in second half after taking on jj?

At least one of those points the one in the 61st minute had him take 8 steps put the ball on the hurl for a solo then back in the hand for 8 steps and then shot it over the bar. This point counts for 2 of his 3 over carries. The other is his point in the 54 minute if memory serves me right.

robbiezero · 15-09-2014 7:58pm

tbiggertycome wrote: »

At least one of those points the one in the 61st minute had him take 8 steps put the ball on the hurl for a solo then back in the hand for 8 steps and then shot it over the bar. This point counts for 2 of his 3 over carries. The other is his point in the 54 minute if memory serves me right.

Thought he might have been pushing it for those points alright. Surprised it was a much as 8, he disguises it well.
I'd imagine jj will be having a word in gavins ear for the replay.

stonemanic · 15-09-2014 10:10pm

Team i would pick

Murphy
Murphy
JJ
Jackie
P Walsh
Hogan
Buckley
M fennelly
Fogarty
C Fennelly
R Power
TJ
J Power
R Hogan
Larkin

Mark kelly, taggy and Wally have played themselves off the team. i definitely wouldnt start Shefflin as he hasnt the legs at all, considering the pace of the game the last day. We need Padraig Walsh wing back(although have a feeling that Holden will still get the nod) and don't think that he is a natural forward anyway. That leaves 2 options, Tommy at wing forward, which I wouldn't be oppossed to or else John Power which is the option i would go with. He is big enough, old enough and good enough. Bit left of field call, but remember Wally in 2012. Something different to get the Tipp backs guessing. Also with Mick Fennelly midfield and neither Padraig or Tommy Walsh in the forwards the half and full forward lines are almost interchangeable, will keep the Tipp backs guessing, keep the forwards constantly moving and give them so of their own medicine.

Grats · 15-09-2014 10:16pm

Wouldn't disagree with your team but to say Henry hasn't the legs and then suggest starting Tommy is a bit of a contradiction. Have you watched Henry play with his club? And seen Tommy with his?

stonemanic · 15-09-2014 10:25pm

I didn't say that Tommy had the legs, just that I wouldn't be opposed to him starting him wing forward! Judging Henry's lack of legs on the league final this year, and the games against Tipperary, Cork (where he got sent off) and Waterford (where taking him off for extra time was one of the key decisions that won us the game) last year. Allied to the speed of the game last week, which was phenomenal.

tbiggertycome · 15-09-2014 10:29pm

robbiezero wrote: »

Thought he might have been pushing it for those points alright. Surprised it was a much as 8, he disguises it well.
I'd imagine jj will be having a word in gavins ear for the replay.

He's like a lot of the Clare players he's running quite fast and it doesn't seem like he's taking so many steps until you count them.

mullinr2 · 15-09-2014 10:33pm

Reports on premierview that paul murphy was stretchered off during training. Any reports on this

tbiggertycome · 15-09-2014 10:38pm

mullinr2 wrote: »

Reports on premierview that paul murphy was stretchered off during training. Any reports on this

Well I saw him in Supervalu this evening and he didn't look like he needed a stretcher, crutches or anything else. He looked in top form.

Whiskey Nose 14 · 15-09-2014 11:25pm

Heres a team I think should be played. Essential we play our best 15 and this is what I think is our best for this particular game

E Murphy
P Murphy JJ Jackie
T Walsh Hogan C Buckley

M Fennelly P Walsh

TJ Reid R Hogan R Power
C Fennelly H Shefflin A Fogarty/J Power

Its a pity Kevin Kelly is not an option in the forwards. A Fine Hurler

And I agree with Michael Duignans assessment earlier in the week. Tommy should be back in his old position, this is a big game which would really suit him. The quality of the Tipp forwards is such that they are always going to score a few points. Tommy would hurl a lot of ball thats for sure, his hurling brain could be vital which is an element I feel Joey Holden doesnt have to his game. Tommy would also be better in the air. He changed the game for us in the drawn game V Galway although he was slaughtered in the air by Tannian in the replay, I do think back in his old position he is much more potent in the air

andyman · 15-09-2014 11:34pm

I think the notion of starting Tommy is bonkers, never mind starting him AND Henry.

Tipp would play us off the park...

Whiskey Nose 14 · 16-09-2014 12:40am

andyman wrote: »

I think the notion of starting Tommy is bonkers, never mind starting him AND Henry.

Tipp would play us off the park...

I dont agree with that at all, both players have showed some excellent form for their clubs of late.

Leaving Henry aside, I really dont see how Tommy could possibly have declined that much in the last 12 months. I do feel he was one of our better players last year in what as very poor year for us. He hasnt had much of a crack at it to be honest. He came on against Offaly got on a lot of ball, against Galway in the drawn game he changed the game for us, I was highly impressed with him that day and thought he was starting to win his place back again. He was surprisingly poor in the replay and we havent heard tell of him since but I dont think its fair ruling him out on one game. Forget the league thats winter hurling. That can make anyone look good or bad. Yes Tommy is not the player he was but by god hes still a very good player and still good enough to start, I certainly dont see better options than him there bar his brother but if his brother is in midfield then there is no one else.

I still dont think its fair when you say if Tommy was to play in his old position we would be run off the park. I would say to that no matter who we play there the Tipp forwards are always going score a few points anyway. Tommy will hurl his own ball and create chances for forwards. He'd certainly offer a lot more in terms of hurling ability than Joey Holden whose simply just a nuts and bolts sort of guy, he will do his job but doesnt offer much else. You dont lose that sort of natural skill/hurling brain over night or the tenacity which Tommy possesses. This is a game tailor made for him, hes always been a big game player and I have no doubt he wouldnt let us down on the big day. Would also allow Padraig Walsh to move out to midfield.

andyman · 16-09-2014 12:50am

Whiskey Nose 14 wrote: »

I dont agree with that at all, both players have showed some excellent form for their clubs of late.

Leaving Henry aside, I really dont see how Tommy could possibly have declined that much in the last 12 months. I do feel he was one of our better players last year in what as very poor year for us. He hasnt had much of a crack at it to be honest. He came on against Offaly got on a lot of ball, against Galway in the drawn game he changed the game for us, I was highly impressed with him that day and thought he was starting to win his place back again. He was surprisingly poor in the replay and we havent heard tell of him since but I dont think its fair ruling him out on one game. Forget the league thats winter hurling. That can make anyone look good or bad. Yes Tommy is not the player he was but by god hes still a very good player and still good enough to start, I certainly dont see better options than him there bar his brother but if his brother is in midfield then there is no one else.

I still dont think its fair when you say if Tommy was to play in his old position we would be run off the park. I would say to that no matter who we play there the Tipp forwards are always going score a few points anyway. Tommy will hurl his own ball and create chances for forwards. He'd certainly offer a lot more in terms of hurling ability than Joey Holden whose simply just a nuts and bolts sort of guy, he will do his job but doesnt offer much else. You dont lose that sort of natural skill/hurling brain over night or the tenacity which Tommy possesses. This is a game tailor made for him, hes always been a big game player and I have no doubt he wouldnt let us down on the big day. Would also allow Padraig Walsh to move out to midfield.

Your second paragraph sums it up for me. He's one of the finest hurlers that has ever been produced yet at the age of 31 isn't getting any minutes. Cody had the chance to bring him off the bench in an All-Ireland Final against Tipperary, but didn't. That sort of scenario is a dream scenario for Tommy Walsh.

His legs are completely gone. And like I've said a number of pages back, his style which allowed him to be such a fantastic player has finally caught up with him. From what I've seen and heard, his form for Tullaroan isn't anything special either.

tbiggertycome · 16-09-2014 1:25am

andyman wrote: »

Your second paragraph sums it up for me. He's one of the finest hurlers that has ever been produced yet at the age of 31 isn't getting any minutes. Cody had the chance to bring him off the bench in an All-Ireland Final against Tipperary, but didn't. That sort of scenario is a dream scenario for Tommy Walsh.

His legs are completely gone. And like I've said a number of pages back, his style which allowed him to be such a fantastic player has finally caught up with him. From what I've seen and heard, his form for Tullaroan isn't anything special either.

I wasn't at the game but 5 points from play from wing forward against Ballyhale while playing in this current Tullaroan team is no easy feat. R. Power scored 1-13 however 1-05 was from play so he only scored a goal more than Tommy in a club game and the whole country is talking about it. I'm not knocking Powers ability or prowess I just think Cody and co wanted to freshen up and add pace to our back 6 this year. JJ was always going to start we have no other option. Jackie tried CB and if it worked B Hogan would be gone too. Jackie did an ok job at CB but nothing to write home about. B Kennedy lost his way a bit and Jackie regained his corner spot. Hogan came back because we had no one else. Buckley usurped Joyce's spot and Padraig and Joey got the runs at 5. At the end of last year our defence was:
Murphy, JJ, Jackie
Tommy, Hogan, Joyce
At least 2 if not 3 of the 6 were not going to be in our defence this year from Codys point of view. In the games Tommy was taken off at half time in the league you can't tell me he was the worst defender on display either day. Personally I think Cody had the mind made up that Tommy wasn't goin there anymore and he's free to try play somewhere else. He's well capable but i'm sure it's a hard adjustment after playing the one position for so long. He's only getting used to playing out of defence again and is up against a savage array of talent for a spot. Write him off at your peril though.

CATwalk · 16-09-2014 7:27am

Whiskey Nose 14 wrote: »

Heres a team I think should be played. Essential we play our best 15 and this is what I think is our best for this particular game

E Murphy
P Murphy JJ Jackie
T Walsh Hogan C Buckley

M Fennelly P Walsh

TJ Reid R Hogan R Power
C Fennelly H Shefflin A Fogarty/J Power

Its a pity Kevin Kelly is not an option in the forwards. A Fine Hurler

And I agree with Michael Duignans assessment earlier in the week. Tommy should be back in his old position, this is a big game which would really suit him. The quality of the Tipp forwards is such that they are always going to score a few points. Tommy would hurl a lot of ball thats for sure, his hurling brain could be vital which is an element I feel Joey Holden doesnt have to his game. Tommy would also be better in the air. He changed the game for us in the drawn game V Galway although he was slaughtered in the air by Tannian in the replay, I do think back in his old position he is much more potent in the air

No Larkin, our hardest working forward, crazy stuff goin in here. Although I do agree with tommy playing.

realdanbreen · 16-09-2014 8:42am

robbiezero wrote: »

Interesting.

Did his decisions:
cost Kilkenny the game?

cost Tipp the game?

didn't cost either side the game?

Good question . Its all very well spending 3.5hours watching/winding/rewinding the game but apart noticing that Kelly wasn't over penalising the steps(which was obvious after 15 minutes) whats the point of the exercise? Next day out, different ref, different weather conditions etc it doesn't count for much.

babyjesus14 · 16-09-2014 11:41am

Whiskey Nose 14 wrote: »

Heres a team I think should be played. Essential we play our best 15 and this is what I think is our best for this particular game

E Murphy
P Murphy JJ Jackie
T Walsh Hogan C Buckley

M Fennelly P Walsh

TJ Reid R Hogan R Power
C Fennelly H Shefflin A Fogarty/J Power

Its a pity Kevin Kelly is not an option in the forwards. A Fine Hurler

And I agree with Michael Duignans assessment earlier in the week. Tommy should be back in his old position, this is a big game which would really suit him. The quality of the Tipp forwards is such that they are always going to score a few points. Tommy would hurl a lot of ball thats for sure, his hurling brain could be vital which is an element I feel Joey Holden doesnt have to his game. Tommy would also be better in the air. He changed the game for us in the drawn game V Galway although he was slaughtered in the air by Tannian in the replay, I do think back in his old position he is much more potent in the air

On what grounds should Tommy be back in, based on what? His form this year has been terrible. And Henry is just not up to it. Kevin Kelly is an option, he's from Kilkenny and he's fit... he's just not good enough, yet! And no Larkin?! Thank God, you don't have a say in the selection of the team.

Kilkennyfella · 16-09-2014 12:18pm

Any truth in the rumour that Paul Murphy is injured and will miss the replay?

Speak Now · 16-09-2014 12:30pm

Kilkennyfella wrote: »

Any truth in the rumour that Paul Murphy is injured and will miss the replay?

No

Kilkennyfella · 16-09-2014 12:35pm

Thanks Jerry, hope you are right. I have heard it from 3 different sources now.

KK4life · 16-09-2014 12:54pm

Kilkennyfella wrote: »

Thanks Jerry, hope you are right. I have heard it from 3 different sources now.

Ah sure they probably read it on here!!

Realt Dearg Sec · 16-09-2014 1:48pm

Kilkennyfella wrote: »

Thanks Jerry, hope you are right. I have heard it from 3 different sources now.

I've read it three times as well. All on this thread. Never anywhere else. Someone else mentioned Premierview, the New York Times of hurling rumours, but didn't link it.

Hitchens · 16-09-2014 2:13pm

Realt Dearg Sec wrote: »

I've read it three times as well. All on this thread. Never anywhere else. Someone else mentioned Premierview, the New York Times of hurling rumours, but didn't link it.

No sane person would link to that kip. :pac:

Whiskey Nose 14 · 16-09-2014 2:37pm

andyman wrote: »

Your second paragraph sums it up for me. He's one of the finest hurlers that has ever been produced yet at the age of 31 isn't getting any minutes. Cody had the chance to bring him off the bench in an All-Ireland Final against Tipperary, but didn't. That sort of scenario is a dream scenario for Tommy Walsh.

His legs are completely gone. And like I've said a number of pages back, his style which allowed him to be such a fantastic player has finally caught up with him. From what I've seen and heard, his form for Tullaroan isn't anything special either.

Well I dont think its because his legs are gone. I have heard rumours of a massive row between Cody and Tommy earlier in the year. Cody is like Fergie, he did it with Charlie Carter, Brian MCevoy too. Tommys legs are far from gone, I really cant see how his legs could be completely gone in the space of 12 months it makes no sense as he played better last year than he had done the year before

Whiskey Nose 14 · 16-09-2014 2:49pm

tbiggertycome wrote: »

I wasn't at the game but 5 points from play from wing forward against Ballyhale while playing in this current Tullaroan team is no easy feat. R. Power scored 1-13 however 1-05 was from play so he only scored a goal more than Tommy in a club game and the whole country is talking about it. I'm not knocking Powers ability or prowess I just think Cody and co wanted to freshen up and add pace to our back 6 this year. JJ was always going to start we have no other option. Jackie tried CB and if it worked B Hogan would be gone too. Jackie did an ok job at CB but nothing to write home about. B Kennedy lost his way a bit and Jackie regained his corner spot. Hogan came back because we had no one else. Buckley usurped Joyce's spot and Padraig and Joey got the runs at 5. At the end of last year our defence was:
Murphy, JJ, Jackie
Tommy, Hogan, Joyce
At least 2 if not 3 of the 6 were not going to be in our defence this year from Codys point of view. In the games Tommy was taken off at half time in the league you can't tell me he was the worst defender on display either day. Personally I think Cody had the mind made up that Tommy wasn't goin there anymore and he's free to try play somewhere else. He's well capable but i'm sure it's a hard adjustment after playing the one position for so long. He's only getting used to playing out of defence again and is up against a savage array of talent for a spot. Write him off at your peril though.

Agree completely with everything you have said there. Hes been a victim of the circumstances. These rumours of a rift if its true cant have helped things either. I think its more that Brian Cody had his heart set on the fact that Tommy would not play this year. It was always going to be an uphill task trying to get into a star studded forward line. People have not seen enough of him this year to judge, i think its unfair the amount of criticism being rained down on him when he has one or two bad games people jump on the bandwagon and say his legs are gone. Yee wud be saying the same about Brian Hogan if he hadnt regained his place. Such a talented hurler like Tommy does not suddenly go bad overnight thats for sure. He proved what he can still do when he came on against Galway in the drawn game and 5 points from play against the Shamrocks is no easy feat either especially when Tullaroan were hammered in the end.

Its the age old cliche rising to the fore again, if hes old and he has a bad game his legs are gone whereas if its a young player in the same situation their inexperience is called into question.

Tommy simply just isnt in favour with Brian Cody at the moment no matter what he does and it seems to me like a similar situation to what we saw with Cha Fitzpatrick who said the same no matter what he did in training he just wasnt picked. Its far from the case that Tommys legs are gone. I agree write him off at your own peril

Kilkennyfella · 16-09-2014 5:13pm

Realt Dearg Sec wrote: »

I've read it three times as well. All on this thread. Never anywhere else. Someone else mentioned Premierview, the New York Times of hurling rumours, but didn't link it.

I hadn't read it on this thread, but from 3 friends who have a great interest in hurling. Unless they were on all Premierview, in which case they are no longer my friends.....

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