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It is announced that Ireland WILL hold referendum on EU fiscal compact treaty

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Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,216 ✭✭✭gerryo777


    Lockstep wrote: »
    Just to clarify, the EU didn't force us to bail out the banks, Fianna Fáil, Fine Gael, Sinn Féin and the Greens agreed to do this in 2008.

    Are you saying then that the EU won't mind if we now let the capitalist market run its course, like it should, and allow our bankrupt banks to fail?

    BTW, the initial disaster that was the bank guarantee was supposed to be for 2 years, why do you think we continue to bail out bankrupt banks? It's hardly for the fun of it. It's because we are being told by the german government to do it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,246 ✭✭✭✭Dyr


    Lockstep wrote: »
    1) Those who wave their Irish flags, talk about the heroes of 1916 and make xenophobic comments about Germans (usually linking them to the Nazis)

    and so forth....

    yeah they're as bad as those people who have to resort to stereotypes to make their strawman arguments...


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 18,163 ✭✭✭✭Liam Byrne


    Lockstep wrote: »
    Just to clarify, the EU didn't force us to bail out the banks, Fianna Fáil, Fine Gael, Sinn Féin and the Greens agreed to do this in 2008.

    2) Those who think this is a great chance to stick it to the government. By all means, criticise the current government and all that but for the love of God, vote for referendums on their own merits, not because of what you think of Kenny and Gilmore.

    Unfortunately those are the idiots who will get to decide what version of "austerity" to impose, and while I don't want "our entire social welfare system" incinerated, it does need to be fixed so that it's not wasting our cash on the many wasters and habitual spongers. And our whole expenses and pay regime needs fixing too.

    So if the treaty included stuff to prevent idiotic wastage in order to avoid us being taxed to keep the above in the unwarranted lifestyle they are accustomed to, then fair enough. But it doesn't; it just ensures that those in power will screw us more to maintain their lifestyle AND stay within the parameters.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,937 ✭✭✭patwicklow


    Kenny has today signed the European fiscal compact.

    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2012/0302/breaking3.html?via=mr


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 11,583 ✭✭✭✭TheZohanS


    patwicklow wrote: »
    Kenny has today signed the European fiscal compact.

    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2012/0302/breaking3.html?via=mr

    Thank you Pat.

    And now Colette with the sports.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,180 ✭✭✭Mena


    patwicklow wrote: »
    Kenny has today signed the European fiscal compact.

    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2012/0302/breaking3.html?via=mr

    So what?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,704 ✭✭✭squod


    Hope someone fiscals him someday.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,641 ✭✭✭Luap


    Kenny has sexy time with Sarkozy and Co.


  • Registered Users Posts: 81,223 ✭✭✭✭biko


    Merged with main fiscal compact thread.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,937 ✭✭✭patwicklow


    biko wrote: »
    Merged with main fiscal compact thread.

    Thanks biko


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  • Registered Users Posts: 51,069 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    Maloney_o9 wrote: »
    Kenny has sexy time with Sarkozy and Co.

    Did he get his hair ruffled again ?


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,028 ✭✭✭Lockstep


    gerryo777 wrote: »
    Are you saying then that the EU won't mind if we now let the capitalist market run its course, like it should, and allow our bankrupt banks to fail?
    No, we made our own decisions with every political party (except Labour and the ULA parties) backing it. We then consolidated our position by extending the guarantee.
    gerryo777 wrote: »
    BTW, the initial disaster that was the bank guarantee was supposed to be for 2 years, why do you think we continue to bail out bankrupt banks?
    Because our current government is little better? THey voted to extend the bank guarantee scheme further.
    It was the Irish government that voted to guarantee the banks. Not the EU. It was the Irish government that voted to extend the bank guarantee, again, not the EU.

    gerryo777 wrote: »
    It's hardly for the fun of it. It's because we are being told by the german government to do it.
    Evidence please, specifically that it was the Germans who were dictating it the entire time.

    Bambi wrote: »
    and so forth....

    yeah they're as bad as those people who have to resort to stereotypes to make their strawman arguments...

    I really wish I was stereotyping here or using a strawman. Sadly, I'm not (apart from the waving the Irish flag metaphor)
    Liam Byrne wrote: »
    Unfortunately those are the idiots who will get to decide what version of "austerity" to impose, and while I don't want "our entire social welfare system" incinerated, it does need to be fixed so that it's not wasting our cash on the many wasters and habitual spongers. And our whole expenses and pay regime needs fixing too.

    So if the treaty included stuff to prevent idiotic wastage in order to avoid us being taxed to keep the above in the unwarranted lifestyle they are accustomed to, then fair enough. But it doesn't; it just ensures that those in power will screw us more to maintain their lifestyle AND stay within the parameters.

    Without bailouts, it would be incinerated. Even if we hadn't a single penny in bank debt to pay out tomorrow, we would still be billions in the hole every year which would require incredible borrowing (and the interest that involves) unless we went on savage austerity that would make our current system seem mild by comparison.

    Where exactly are we meant to make up the shortfall? Politician pay and expenses is a nice headline grabber (and should obviously be looked at). The treaty requires us to reduce our public expenditure and deficit which needs to be done anyway, regardless of whether or not we sign up or not. However, if we don't sign up, we are then screwed for further payouts which will make the transition even more painful.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,830 ✭✭✭deirdremf


    Lockstep wrote: »
    No, we made our own decisions with every political party (except Labour and the ULA parties) backing it. We then consolidated our position by extending the guarantee.
    This is a complete lie.
    Labour initially didn't support the bank guarantee, and I applauded them for that.
    However, they are now applying it every day. i.e. they are screwing us each and every day by being part of this utterly right-wing government.

    Sinn Féin made the very very stupid mistake of initially accepting the bank guarantee - I was gobsmacked when I heard that.
    But they have opposed it at each and every step since then, and have never been involved in putting it into practice in any way at all.

    What will SF do when they get into government? Will they do the same as Labour/the Stickies?
    I don't know. I am afraid they might well. But let's not blame them for their initial reaction, when they rectified at the first opportunity, as soon as they saw what the bank guarantee meant.

    Let's not forget either that the government in 2008 had a majority, and that FF and FG - tweedledum & tweedledee - both voted for the bank guarantee, and SF and Lab were irrelevant as a result.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 18,163 ✭✭✭✭Liam Byrne


    Lockstep wrote: »
    Without bailouts, it would be incinerated. Even if we hadn't a single penny in bank debt to pay out tomorrow

    There's a good start.
    ......we would still be billions in the hole every year which would require incredible borrowing (and the interest that involves) unless we went on savage austerity that would make our current system seem mild by comparison.

    Agreed. Which is why the cost base needs to be tackled to ensure that we can return to sustainability.
    Where exactly are we meant to make up the shortfall? Politician pay and expenses is a nice headline grabber (and should obviously be looked at).

    Ah yes - just one area where the tosser that is supposed to be "leading" us refuses point-blank to obey his own salary caps.
    The treaty requires us to reduce our public expenditure and deficit which needs to be done anyway, regardless of whether or not we sign up or not. However, if we don't sign up, we are then screwed for further payouts which will make the transition even more painful.

    HSE, children's allowance, long-term unemployment benefit, standard 3-bed houses for single parents on benefit (if even working people have to move home due to costs, so should they), PR & spin consultants and "experts" from companies that were so expert they missed the bubble and forgot to audit Anglo, luxuries in prisons, Croke Park agreement, astronomical pensions, the top-level gravy-train public (so-called) servants.

    There's a hell of a lot that we could tackle if the will was there. But it's not.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,028 ✭✭✭Lockstep


    deirdremf wrote: »
    This is a complete lie.
    Labour initially didn't support the bank guarantee, and I applauded them for that.
    However, they are now applying it every day. i.e. they are screwing us each and every day by being part of this utterly right-wing government.
    Yes, I was referring to the 2008 Bank Guarantee when Labour were the sole Dáil party not to vote it in. This is 'making our own decisions' I was referring to, as I said in a previous post
    Fianna Fáil, Fine Gael, Sinn Féin and the Greens agreed to do this in 2008.
    They then voted to extend it, which you are correct, Labour supported.

    I'd appreciate it if you read my posts before accusing me of lying.
    deirdremf wrote: »
    Sinn Féin made the very very stupid mistake of initially accepting the bank guarantee - I was gobsmacked when I heard that.
    But they have opposed it at each and every step since then, and have never been involved in putting it into practice in any way at all.
    What will SF do when they get into government? Will they do the same as Labour/the Stickies?
    I don't know. I am afraid they might well. But let's not blame them for their initial reaction, when they rectified at the first opportunity, as soon as they saw what the bank guarantee meant.
    They'll pretty much do whatever is popular. I have no more trust for them than I do any other political party.
    They voted in the Bank Guarantee scheme in 2008, either they were voted it in as they supported it or were incompetent enough to vote it in without understanding it.
    Complaining about it from the sidelines doesn't give me any faith in them. They did their damage.

    deirdremf wrote: »
    Let's not forget either that the government in 2008 had a majority, and that FF and FG - tweedledum & tweedledee - both voted for the bank guarantee, and SF and Lab were irrelevant as a result.
    Indeed but I hold a lot of scope by how people vote, no matter if it would have gone through or not.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,028 ✭✭✭Lockstep


    Liam Byrne wrote: »
    There's a good start.
    Not paying back the banks? It's a nice idea but then what happens to our bond rates? Once again, we are borrowing billions every year even after the governments austerity measures which have protests, uproar and so on.

    Liam Byrne wrote: »
    Agreed. Which is why the cost base needs to be tackled to ensure that we can return to sustainability.
    Please expand here.


    Liam Byrne wrote: »
    Ah yes - just one area where the tosser that is supposed to be "leading" us refuses point-blank to obey his own salary caps.
    Which has a very small effect on our national finances. The main expenditures are health, education and social welfare.

    Liam Byrne wrote: »
    HSE
    I fully agree here. I'm still waiting for both government parties to go ahead and bring in the Universal HEalth Insurance they both had in their manifestos.
    Liam Byrne wrote: »
    children's allowance
    The government suggested this before and was met with uproar and backed down. If anything it shows that the government can't be trusted to perform these cuts.

    Liam Byrne wrote: »
    long-term unemployment benefit
    Pretty much the same as the above. Any inroads into social welfare is met with uproar.



    Liam Byrne wrote: »
    PR & spin consultants and "experts" from companies that were so expert they missed the bubble and forgot to audit Anglo
    While I fully agree these can be cut, can you expand on how much these will save?

    Liam Byrne wrote: »
    luxuries in prisons
    Will this really save much?

    Liam Byrne wrote: »
    Croke Park agreement
    I really doubt this government has the guts to take this on.

    Liam Byrne wrote: »
    There's a hell of a lot that we could tackle if the will was there. But it's not.
    We have had the ability to rectify these for years. But neither government has addressed them.
    What does voting against the Fiscal Treaty achieve here?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 24 mojorex


    so confuzzled


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 156 ✭✭GombeanMan


    If you care about Ireland and not some faceless EU official and their gambling habits, please vote No. We can fix the big problems with corruption without handing more power over to Franco Germans who judging by their past actions, are capable of actions up to and including mass murder/genocide. They want to enslave you.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    GombeanMan wrote: »
    If you care about Ireland and not some faceless EU official and their gambling habits, please vote No. We can fix the big problems with corruption without handing more power over to Franco Germans who judging by their past actions, are capable of actions up to and including mass murder/genocide. They want to enslave you.
    Your fantasy world must be a scary scary place.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 156 ✭✭GombeanMan


    dvpower wrote: »
    Your fantasy world must be a scary scary place.

    I fail to see how handing over more sovereign fiscal powers to a foreign entity is anything but an insane proposition.


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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 8,224 ✭✭✭Going Forward


    GombeanMan wrote: »
    If you care about Ireland and not some faceless EU official and their gambling habits, please vote No. We can fix the big problems with corruption without handing more power over to Franco Germans who judging by their past actions, are capable of actions up to and including mass murder/genocide. They want to enslave you.

    Not far wrong, of the troika, it is the IMF and not our "European partners" who have expressed interest in addressing the promissory note fiasco.

    Who would have thought that? Gives some idea of who the debt is actually owed to, German and French bondholders and speculators, plus, the IMF is not politically hamstrung to the same extent , ie, it's not trying to assuage the German and French electorate.
    _

    Closer to Berlin than Boston after all.


  • Registered Users Posts: 26,284 ✭✭✭✭Eric Cartman


    deirdremf wrote: »
    by being part of this utterly right-wing government.

    an 'utterly right-wing government' would never have bailed out the banks and social welfare would have been chopped to pieces , I think youll find it was a very left wing decision to effectively nationalise the banks


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 956 ✭✭✭RiseToTheTop


    If we had Gerry Adams as Taoiseach none of this behind-your-back treaties would be signed without your knowlodge. (not this treaty, i'm referencing others too.)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    If we had Gerry Adams as Taoiseach none of this behind-your-back treaties would be signed without your knowlodge. (not this treaty, i'm referencing others too.)
    Yeah. Gerry Adams would never be involved in behind closed doors, secret negotiations.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,410 ✭✭✭bbam


    Lockstep wrote: »
    I'll be voting yes. I read the treaty last night and there's nothing that scares me aside from us agreeing to maintain some sense of fiscal sanity (Article 3 does make allowances for exceptional circumstances so there is scope for a stimulus package for example to combat deflation or kickstart a multiplier effect)
    Being locked out of further bailouts is a really bad idea if you're like me and don't want our entire social welfare system incinerated (given that even if we default on our bank debt, we still have an annual €18bn deficit)

    What bums me out is how two trains of thoughts seem to be evident
    1) Those who wave their Irish flags, talk about the heroes of 1916 and make xenophobic comments about Germans (usually linking them to the Nazis) Just to clarify, the EU didn't force us to bail out the banks, Fianna Fáil, Fine Gael, Sinn Féin and the Greens agreed to do this in 2008.
    2) Those who think this is a great chance to stick it to the government. By all means, criticise the current government and all that but for the love of God, vote for referendums on their own merits, not because of what you think of Kenny and Gilmore.

    Nice post...
    I feel I'm going to vote yes although the information available is poor so far, I presume the referendum commission will kick into gear sometime soon...

    I think IMHO that any potential negatives from voting yes are multiple times less scary than what might come down the line if we vote no...

    I also feel that overall being part of Europe has been good for Ireland if a long term view has been taken... So we need to be full members to benefit further, we can't just pick and choose the bits we want..


  • Registered Users Posts: 137 ✭✭pancakes rule


    The EU treaty will force member states to stick to balanced budgets from now on with harsher rules to drive expenditure down. By signing this treaty, the government will effectively commit itself to introducing €6bil in tax increases and spending cuts. This is on top of the €8.6 bil in spending cuts and tax increases over the next three years. Not only will we be signing up for lots of extra austerity, but the treaty is making keynsian and socialist policies illegal and will tie the hands of any future government to the same measures.
    I we fail to meet the target of .1% we'll be fined by the european court of justice which will send us into an ongoing debt spiral.
    Article 9 says to cut wages and there is a significant proposal to shift budgetary power from elected governments to the unelected european commission and european council.
    Either way, we're ****ed. Basically. BUT, if we vote against the treaty, we retain our democratic power which we will ****ing want.
    It's an austerity treaty, but it's also a treaty to give the elite more power straight out of our hands.

    Anyway, many more will be plunged into personal debt. Where's the money going to come from to save them? The banks? If the banks don't borrow there won't be enough money, and if they do we can say hello to another banking crisis. Ireland will only be able to borrow money for limited public works which will mean very very few jobs being created that way. Austerity isn't working and right wing economists have started to accept this. And now we're enshrining austerity into our constitution. Great.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 11,583 ✭✭✭✭TheZohanS


    amacachi wrote: »
    Vote yes - We'll have to keep our budget balanced and we'll be allowed access to the ESM fund.
    Vote no - Our governments can still spend us into oblivion and there'll be no European help.


    Given how everyone has been giving out about how irresponsible our politicians were and are I don't see why those same people would encourage a "No" vote.

    There'll be no European help? Can you provide a link or a source where the EU has come out and said that there'll be no more EU help if we vote no?

    I'm pretty sure I heard an economist come out and say that the existing framework meant that we could indeed get more funding from the EU and that the treaty would not change that.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,410 ✭✭✭bbam


    TheZohan wrote: »
    There'll be no European help? Can you provide a link or a source where the EU has come out and said that there'll be no more EU help if we vote no?

    But isn't it the case that we cannot access the permanent bailout fund if we do not agree to the treaty??

    That's quite different to an economist assuming they'll give us a dig out because "what else would they do"...

    More than any other Referendum we need some facts published and not assumptions or Chinese whispers...:rolleyes:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    TheZohan wrote: »
    There'll be no European help? Can you provide a link or a source where the EU has come out and said that there'll be no more EU help if we vote no?

    I'm pretty sure I heard an economist come out and say that the existing framework meant that we could indeed get more funding from the EU and that the treaty would not change that.
    The current bailout deal remains in place - there will be no change to that.

    Its clear that a no vote excludes us from the ESM, which is the future eurozone rescue fund, so its difficult how the EU could provide us with future help - but maybe individual EU states could loan us money on a bilateral basis or they could come up with a special fund just for us - but it would be a massive risk, given the likelihood of our requiring a future bailout.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,235 ✭✭✭lugha


    Whatever the practical effect of a no vote the message it sends would be interesting.

    The popular cries from the Irish people in the current economic crisis is that the reckless management of your economy was solely the work of the political and banking classes, that the people themselves never endorsed such behaviour.

    But when we are asked to approve of measures that would curtail and punish exactly that kind of recklessness…. we say no!!


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