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Cross on Carauntoohill had been cut down

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13567…23

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    #62
    madcabbage
    Registered Users Posts: 2,300 ✭✭✭madcabbage


    If people weren't in favour of that cross being there why didn't they voice their concerns? I'm not one bit religious, hell I wouldn't be caught dead in a church but this opens the door to vandalism to other crosses or possibly shrines too.


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    #63
    Molester Stallone II
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,459 ✭✭✭Molester Stallone II


    FrStone wrote: »
    The new cross is there since then. There was an older one there before then love.

    Any planning permission sweetie?


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    #64
    beveragelady
    Registered Users Posts: 854 ✭✭✭beveragelady


    Saipanne wrote: »
    Would you support a Muslim symbol being put up there, if the locals were all for it?

    Jewish symbol?

    Flying Spaghetti Monster?

    This is the whole point. Somebody accused me of being intolerant and discriminatory.My view is that a symbol of any one religion, in a place of outstanding natural beauty that is visited by people of all faiths and none is, an attempt to place that religion above others.
    This is not a place of worship, or a place of religious significance. A religious symbol bothers some. The absence of a symbol bothers nobody. Keep your crosses and your icons in your places of worship or your homes.


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    #65
    the_monkey
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,556 ✭✭✭the_monkey


    Graces7 wrote: »
    Then you are intolerant. Period. Discriminatory too

    Hoping it is replaced and soon.. that sign is of hope and beauty which we need so much

    So why not stick the Muslim crescent moon up there while we are at it ?


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    #66
    mal1
    Registered Users Posts: 811 ✭✭✭mal1


    I think this is a little more than vandalism. An angle grinder on the top of Carauntoohill? Some might call it a protest, I'd call it an achievement.


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    #67
    the_monkey
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,556 ✭✭✭the_monkey


    beveragelady wrote: »
    This is the whole point. Somebody accused me of being intolerant and discriminatory.My view is that a symbol of any one religion, in a place of outstanding natural beauty that is visited by people of all faiths and none is, an attempt to place that religion above others.
    This is not a place of worship, or a place of religious significance. A religious symbol bothers some. The absence of a symbol bothers nobody. Keep your crosses and your icons in your places of worship or your homes.

    Bang on !!


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    #68
    Saipanne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,882 ✭✭✭Saipanne


    the_monkey wrote: »
    So why not stick the Muslim crescent moon up there while we are at it ?

    A question mark for agnostics?

    question-mark-statue.jpg


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    #69
    suicide_circus
    Registered Users Posts: 19,802 ✭✭✭✭suicide_circus


    Saipanne wrote: »
    Would you support a Muslim symbol being put up there, if the locals were all for it?

    Jewish symbol?

    Flying Spaghetti Monster?

    And don't start that "recognised religion" pseudo Nazi crap...
    Why the anger? Chill man.

    If the locals wanted islamic or Jewish symbols on the mountain, I certainly wouldn't be offended, would you?

    The difference of course would be that, like it or not, Christianity and irish history over the last 1300 years or so have been heavily involved. Same all over Europe and there is little knicker twisting to be seen.


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    #70
    fits
    Registered Users Posts: 13,271 ✭✭✭✭fits


    madcabbage wrote: »
    If people weren't in favour of that cross being there why didn't they voice their concerns? I'm not one bit religious, hell I wouldn't be caught dead in a church but this opens the door to vandalism to other crosses or possibly shrines too.

    People have been giving out about those crosses for a long time.

    Was up there this year, it didn't really bother me, was something to look at in the fog. I'm not devastated that it has been cut down either.


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    #71
    Hitchens
    Registered Users Posts: 7,982 ✭✭✭Hitchens


    RobertKK wrote: »
    How long is it there?
    about 5 metres :)


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    #72
    BlatentCheek
    Registered Users Posts: 329 ✭✭BlatentCheek


    Interesting comparing the reactions here to over on broadsheet.ie.

    The hipsters over there are over the moon about this, with anyone critical being shouted down.
    Here it's closer to 50/50 for and against.

    Personally, as an agnostic I think its vandalism. There has been a cross of some sort up there since well before 1976. Offending peoples' traditional values to show how right-on you are is just childish posturing.


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    #73
    Saipanne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,882 ✭✭✭Saipanne


    suicide_circus wrote: »
    Why the anger? Chill man.

    If the locals wanted islamic or Jewish symbols on the mountain, I certainly wouldn't be offended, would you?

    The difference of course would be that, like it or not, Christianity and irish history over the last 1300 years or so have been heavily involved. Same all over Europe and there is little knicker twisting to be seen.


    No anger. And, no, if people were happy to put it there I wouldn't be bothered. Even though I don't see the point of it.


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    #74
    The_Valeyard
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,452 ✭✭✭✭The_Valeyard


    Typical radical atheist glee in cross cut down. So much for tolerance and pluralism.


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    #75
    madcabbage
    Registered Users Posts: 2,300 ✭✭✭madcabbage


    One aspect people might forget very quickly is that the cross can act as a symbol to those who've lost their lives on that mountain.


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    #76
    SEPT 23 1989
    Registered Users Posts: 43,028 ✭✭✭✭SEPT 23 1989


    Maybe a very religious ethnic minority in waiting robbed it for scrap


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    #77
    Saipanne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,882 ✭✭✭Saipanne


    madcabbage wrote: »
    One aspect people might forget very quickly is that the cross can act as a symbol to those who've lost their lives on that mountain.

    What about non Christian hikers who died? How does that show them respect?


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    #78
    beveragelady
    Registered Users Posts: 854 ✭✭✭beveragelady


    You mean "as a symbol to Christians who've lost their lives on that mountain."
    But only Christians. The rest of you can go and climb an atheist/Muslim/Jewish/whatever mountain.
    madcabbage wrote: »
    One aspect people might forget very quickly is that the cross can act as a symbol to those who've lost their lives on that mountain.


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    #79
    suicide_circus
    Registered Users Posts: 19,802 ✭✭✭✭suicide_circus


    BlatentCheek wrote: »
    Interesting comparing the reactions here to over on broadsheet.ie.

    The hipsters over there are over the moon about this, with anyone critical being shouted down.
    Here it's closer to 50/50 for and against.

    Personally, as an agnostic I think its vandalism. There has been a cross of some sort up there since well before 1976. Offending peoples' traditional values to show how right-on you are is just childish posturing.
    Yep I'm a complete agnostic. Have very little time for organised religion personally. You must remember that we are still in our post catholic emancipated phase in Ireland. Hip, cool, sophisticated types revile in their new found freedom to ridicule the church, giddy like teenagers allowed on holiday on their own for the first time. Has the Church brought much of this on itself? Deffo. But I imagine one day we will mature enough as a society and get past this and be able to view irish Catholicism in the round and objectively.


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    #80
    DEFTLEFTHAND
    Registered Users Posts: 16,500 ✭✭✭✭DEFTLEFTHAND


    beveragelady wrote: »
    You mean "as a symbol to Christians who've lost their lives on that mountain."
    But only Christians. The rest of you can go and climb an atheist/Muslim/Jewish/whatever mountain.

    Stop feigning outrage.


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    #81
    Squeedily Spooch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 264 ✭✭Squeedily Spooch


    suicide_circus wrote: »
    Yep I'm a complete agnostic. Have very little time for organised religion personally. You must remember that we are still in our post catholic emancipated phase in Ireland. Hip, cool, sophisticated types revile in their new found freedom to ridicule the church, giddy like teenagers allowed on holiday on their own for the first time. Has the Church brought much of this on itself? Deffo. But I imagine one day we will mature enough as a society and get past this and be able to view irish Catholicism in the round and objectively.

    The "people are atheist because it's cool now" is a piss poor argument and you know it.


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    #82
    Saipanne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,882 ✭✭✭Saipanne


    suicide_circus wrote: »
    Yep I'm a complete agnostic. Have very little time for organised religion personally. You must remember that we are still in our post catholic emancipated phase in Ireland. Hip, cool, sophisticated types revile in their new found freedom to ridicule the church, giddy like teenagers allowed on holiday on their own for the first time. Has the Church brought much of this on itself? Deffo. But I imagine one day we will mature enough as a society and get past this and be able to view irish Catholicism in the round and objectively.

    Paedophila aside, Catholicism is simply hard to like. As is any abrahamic religion. The reasons are too numerous.


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    #83
    Ave Sodalis
    Registered Users Posts: 7,548 ✭✭✭Ave Sodalis


    One eyed Jack wrote: »
    FYP there. It's a part of this country's history and it's nothing short of sheer malicious vandalism and spite on the part of those cowards who took it upon themselves to cut it down.

    I don't particularly agree with your FYPing. If the cross was never up there, nobody would bat an eyelid. However, because the cross was put up there and then taken down, people are outraged at the idea of not having a cross up there. It just goes along with the idea that you can't miss what you never had.


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    #84
    SpaceTime
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,088 ✭✭✭SpaceTime


    I'm not convinced it was cut.

    Physical evidence:

    1. That image shows no debris near the end of the mast. There would be some degree of scattering of debris and given the ground / rocks it would be very hard to camouflage.

    2. The cut is very close to the ground. If you were using an angle grinder, I would assume cutting that tight to the ground, near loose rock and concrete would be quite difficult. It would be easier to just cut it further up the mast. So, I can only assume these were very neat vandals ...

    3. Someone would have had to carry significantly heavy equipment up a mountain trail. That's quite an effort!

    4. That site has a lot of visitors, so it would be hard for someone to go completely unnoticed.
    My theory:

    The mast appears to be built from some kind of mild steel and it's, rather unusually for a tall mast, square.

    Metal fatigue can produce some very sharp breaks that will often look like something's been cut. Sometimes the metal can just fracture along a manufacturing flaw or a weak point in the structure and produce an almost perfect snap like that.

    When you look at the cross:

    1) Square structure (fundamentally weaker than a round one).
    2) Wind load on top of a mountain is high and it looks to have sheered at the only point it cannot move (just above the concrete base).
    3) The cross has a large cross bar which would complicate the wind load by causing twisting loads (torque) and also vibrations that would be quite hard to model.
    4) The structure is 40 years old and looks quite rusty so may be weak anyway.
    5) According to the article it's built from welded segments, not a single piece. So that may have created complications too.
    6) It's in a location with huge and constant wind exposure.

    I wouldn't jump to the conclusion that this is vandalism without doing a full analysis of the metal.
    I've seen metal beams snap like that before and it can look remarkably like a cut even though it's just fatigue.

    I think this may simply be a case of structural engineering being not up to scratch for the location.


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    #85
    beveragelady
    Registered Users Posts: 854 ✭✭✭beveragelady


    Sniping and religious bickering apart, I'd love to know how they managed it. Hauling the equipment up there is one thing, but how did they do it without witnesses? Any time I've been up there it has either been crowded or there has been somebody leaving as we arrived or arriving as we left. How long would a job like that take? My guess is they arrived late in the day and waited until the last people were leaving. They must have made their way down at dusk or after dark, which would be tricky but not impossible.
    I'd say that in 50 years time we'll get the story from a toothless old codger, the last surviving member of a secular gang who swore each other to secrecy.

    Edit: SpaceTime's reasoned and informed contribution has taken the wind out of my sails.


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    #86
    suicide_circus
    Registered Users Posts: 19,802 ✭✭✭✭suicide_circus


    Squeedily Spooch wrote: »
    The "people are atheist because it's cool now" is a piss poor argument and you know it.
    I thought atheism was the lack of a belief in a god not the active mockery and condescension of religions and those of faith


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    #87
    madcabbage
    Registered Users Posts: 2,300 ✭✭✭madcabbage


    Saipanne wrote: »
    What about non Christian hikers who died? How does that show them respect?

    I think that's up to individuals to decide what they think, I see it as a mark for those who've died regardless of their faith. You want to play the non-Christian card that's fine but keep me out of it please.


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    #88
    Squeedily Spooch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 264 ✭✭Squeedily Spooch


    Saipanne wrote: »
    Paedophila aside, Catholicism is simply hard to like. As is any abrahamic religion. The reasons are too numerous.

    But wasn't the country so much better when we all had buckets of self loathing and shame?


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    #89
    SpaceTime
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,088 ✭✭✭SpaceTime


    I'd just add if it was just a structural flaw, it's a very good thing it did fall down uneventfully as it could have come crashing down on tourists / pilgrims!


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    #90
    Saipanne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,882 ✭✭✭Saipanne


    suicide_circus wrote: »
    I thought atheism was the lack of a belief in a god not the active mockery and condescension of religions and those of faith

    I would label that anti theism, or anti religiousness. Not necessarily atheism, perhaps subsets of atheism.


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    #91
    eyescreamcone
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,562 ✭✭✭eyescreamcone


    Have we ruled out an Act Of gOD?


This discussion has been closed.
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