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Problems in the Politics Forum

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    #92
    LordSutch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,078 ✭✭✭✭LordSutch


    Nodin wrote: »
    I also pointed out to you at the time that no small number of those threads, and indeed the majority of posts within all of them, were anti-sf.

    Of course they were ;)

    The fact remains, that if you logged on to the politics forum during the election campaign you might be forgiven for thinking the Sinn Fein were actually running the show, such was the ammount of Sinn Fein propaganda at the time . . . .


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    #93
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    LordSutch wrote: »
    Of course they were ;)

    The fact remains, that if you logged on to the politics forum during the election campaign you might be forgiven for thinking the Sinn Fein were actually running the show, such was the ammount of Sinn Fein propaganda at the time . . . .

    Not started by SF voters....
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056193455
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056192136
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056192473
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056191883
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056189882
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056189067
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056186531
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056181840
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056183781
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056176666
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056162017
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056158646
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056158758
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056159480

    ...and its hardly "propoganda". You'll note that even discussion in this thread about republicans on the forum is prompted by non-republicans.

    However this thread is about the Politics forum generally. If you have complaints or queries about the way the elections forum specifically was run, I would imagine starting a thread would be the best course. Likewise if you and others feel the need for a general anti-sf/republican thread. Bringing something to the table other than vague generalisations would be helpful.


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    #94
    sceptre
    Registered Users Posts: 19,608 ✭✭✭✭sceptre


    I just want to mention that I'm reading this thread and taking careful note of the points and suggestions. Time is very tight at the moment so it'll be Sunday at the earliest before I make any posted contribution.


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    #95
    Wolfe Tone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,670 ✭✭✭✭Wolfe Tone


    FlutterinBantam wrote: »
    I'm not. Why should 'republican' argument take precedence of others.

    Nobody is scared away.
    You misunderstood... You are familiar no doubt with the way lots of threads descend into the same thing... Currently I think there are two threads with the same general argument, and for many posters its a case of "ah no not this sh!t" and they dont post, which is understandable. Now I personally enjoy those debates and Im sure others do too. Thats why I think a superthread would be a good idea, it would prevent threads from going down the same road as before. In many threads things derail after the first page or so and you cant tell the difference between them. If that debate is all in one superthread it would clean up the forum a lot, posters wouldn't be put off threads by the same group of heads arguing away.

    I think moderating may in fact be easier.

    If a thread looks like derailing simply tell the posters to take it to the superthread, if they dont, punish. Thus easier to keep threads on topic.

    I think the type of debate which happens will happen anyway, you may as well stick it all in one thread.



    As for redirecting things to the "provo subforum"(stupid thing to call it) Thats a bad idea.

    Firstly it is a private forum.
    Secondly what type of threads would you put there anyway?


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    #96
    P. Breathnach
    Registered Users Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭P. Breathnach


    Wolfe Tone wrote: »
    .... Currently I think there are two threads with the same general argument, and for many posters its a case of "ah no not this sh!t" and they dont post, which is understandable. Now I personally enjoy those debates and Im sure others do too....

    Nationalism and republicanism are important components in Irish political discourse, and I say that as somebody who does not have strong nationalist sentiment and no liking at all for the Irish republican tradition.

    The problem is not that they are debated. The problem is how they are debated. That's where the shittiness comes in.

    We have a couple of people who post from a unionist or loyalist perspective, and a small but energetic mob of republicans who are all-too-easily provoked, and who seem to act in concert. And most of the rest of us just go away and leave you lot to it. It's not political discussion: it's perseverative attitudinising.


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    #97
    Scofflaw
    Registered Users Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    P. Breathnach wrote: »
    Nationalism and republicanism are important components in Irish political discourse, and I say that as somebody who does not have strong nationalist sentiment and no liking at all for the Irish republican tradition.

    The problem is not that they are debated. The problem is how they are debated. That's where the shittiness comes in.

    We have a couple of people who post from a unionist or loyalist perspective, and a small but energetic mob of republicans who are all-too-easily provoked, and who seem to act in concert. And most of the rest of us just go away and leave you lot to it. It's not political discussion: it's perseverative attitudinising.

    Is it, on the other hand, one of the major issues in the forum - or is it simply an issue that is a problem, but which has wound up being highlighted on this thread by the participation of certain posters?

    cordially,
    Scofflaw


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    #98
    P. Breathnach
    Registered Users Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭P. Breathnach


    Scofflaw wrote: »
    Is it, on the other hand, one of the major issues in the forum - or is it simply an issue that is a problem, but which has wound up being highlighted on this thread by the participation of certain posters?

    It's one of a number of problem issues in the forum. I picked up on it because of what WT said, and in large part because WT's proposed solution does not look to me like a good one. In my opinion, threads that degenerate into repetition of the same old arguments made by the same people that we had as recently as last week should be locked.

    We have similar problems with discussing the public service, with the usual suspects in their familiar positions, and with advocacy of burning the bondholders.

    Not to mention the people who continue to flog FF, even though it's pretty well a dead horse.

    I think, as I write this, that our problem might be that we have a lot of obsessive people in the forum.


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    #99
    Scofflaw
    Registered Users Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    P. Breathnach wrote: »
    It's one of a number of problem issues in the forum. I picked up on it because of what WT said, and in large part because WT's proposed solution does not look to me like a good one. In my opinion, threads that degenerate into repetition of the same old arguments made by the same people that we had as recently as last week should be locked.

    We have similar problems with discussing the public service, with the usual suspects in their familiar positions, and with advocacy of burning the bondholders.

    Not to mention the people who continue to flog FF, even though it's pretty well a dead horse.

    I think, as I write this, that our problem might be that we have a lot of obsessive people in the forum.

    Obsessive people...posting on the internet? Now I'm seriously concerned.

    duty_calls.png

    cordially,
    Scofflaw


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    #100
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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    #101
    P. Breathnach
    Registered Users Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭P. Breathnach


    Scofflaw wrote: »
    Obsessive people...posting on the internet? Now I'm seriously concerned.

    duty_calls.png

    cordially,
    Scofflaw

    It's disturbingly apposite!

    One of my more enlightened moments was when I realised that the person saying the last word in an argument is not necessarily right. Since then, I have saved myself a good deal of time and effort. I can also entertain myself with images of my opponent in argument wondering "Huh? Where's he gone?".


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    #102
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    He has rightly pointed out that its not a problem confined to the "same cohort of republican posters" or those threads in particular.
    PBreathnach wrote:
    I think, as I write this, that our problem might be that we have a lot of obsessive people in the forum.

    Indeed. Of all shapes and sizes.


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    #103
    K-9
    Registered Users Posts: 43,311 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    liah wrote: »
    Okay, I'll list everyone's suggestions so far with a pro and a con, and add in pros/cons as people contribute, if it helps to make things a little easier to follow and we can keep track of what's been mentioned and what hasn't:

    1) Remove 'thanks' function.
    -removes gang-thanking and a bit of the groupthink, can't think of a direct con

    Probably makes sense, though I don't see why some seem to have such issue with it. I use it usually to thank a well considered post, whether in agreement or disagreeing, or something I hadn't thought of, or just saying something better than I could have
    2) Put a time limit between posts.
    -makes people consider their posts more, but that may result in people not bothering anymore

    Don't know how it could be enforced. Action on glib one liner personal posts would make more sense.
    3) Premoderate? Though that would be a nightmare.
    -allow in only well-constructed, intelligent threads, but that may result in elitism

    Probably take too much work for the mods.
    4) Superthreads for 'trigger' topics.
    -keeps it all to one area, leaving the rest open for everyone else, but can get over-cluttered and hard to moderate, and probably tough on the database

    There are probably a few threads and topics that could benefit from this. It doesn't even have to be a permanent one. I'm thinking of the plethora of Shell to Sea threads during the election, it got boring making the same point again and again and yet another thread started within a couple of days.
    5) Banning repeat instigators.
    -gets rid of the problem, but will probably result in uproar or re-reg or other mod hassle

    Posters should report posters they think are re regs. There will be uproar but usually only from the problem poster.
    6) Direct Provo threads to private subforum.
    -keeps it all to one area, but prevents new people who may be interested from finding the topic

    Some might benefit but I think the superthread on the lates "hot" topic would help here too. The latest "Queen visiting" thread merged into another, Blueshirts attacking Irish etc.

    Some abuse terms could be frowned upon. I know Blueshirts and Provos can be correct in context but using it for current affairs thread is pretty pointless. "Mehole" Martin is another one. Clever when I seen it first but just pointless after the novelty wore of.

    PS. Posters would need to report more but I did report a few posts and to be honest, it felt pointless and the mods have explained how their hands are tied atm there.

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



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    #104
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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    #105
    FlutterinBantam
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,576 ✭✭✭✭FlutterinBantam


    Can't really figure out all this angst.:confused:

    What we have here in Politics is a coterie of activists whose aim is to push their agenda on the general poster.

    They operate as a Phalanx and tease out, and dissect, every word and nuance of those whose opinion is contrary.

    Hence every thread is dwindled down (as this one is) check it out:D

    to the head of a pin conclusion where the actual intricate wording and sentiment is ground down to nuclear proportions.

    Read this thread and see the truth is that!

    Bit like a referee who applies the total letter of the law without any deviation to everything.

    Result... total chaos:D


    Wise the fcuk up people.


  • Options
    #106
    southsiderosie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,565 ✭✭✭southsiderosie


    liah wrote: »
    Okay, I'll list everyone's suggestions so far with a pro and a con, and add in pros/cons as people contribute, if it helps to make things a little easier to follow and we can keep track of what's been mentioned and what hasn't...?

    liah, thank you for compiling this. Personally, I would not be enthusiastic about a lot of the items on this list. The thanks function is useful in that it prevents a bunch of one-liner "thanks" posts. I think the time limit on posting is unfair to the 98% of users who do not feel the need to post 50 times on the same thread and constantly rehash the same issue. Plus I think a one-liner is sometimes warranted.

    Pre-moderation would create a LOT of work for the mods, both in having to review everything and in the number of complaints that would probably result.

    The problem with superthreads - and particularly if they involve very prolific posters - is that they clog space on the main page despite the fact that when they get too big there is a disincentive to jump in and they really only involve about six people anyway.

    I think the main thing that could make the forum immediately better would be take a very hard-hand approach to moderation, particularly over the next few weeks. The latter is the most important: duplicate threads need to be quickly locked; thread clogging and sniping (which are often one and the same) needs to be cracked down on, and soapboxing needs to be curtailed. I appreciate that this is something that the mods need to work out amongst each other, but the sooner this can happen, the better. In the short-term, this would make a lot more work for moderators, as I am sure there would be an explosion in dispute resolution threads. But I think that there would be a long-term benefit to the forum in general.

    I completely agree with this:
    Nationalism and republicanism are important components in Irish political discourse, and I say that as somebody who does not have strong nationalist sentiment and no liking at all for the Irish republican tradition.

    The problem is not that they are debated. The problem is how they are debated. That's where the ****tiness comes in.

    We have a couple of people who post from a unionist or loyalist perspective, and a small but energetic mob of republicans who are all-too-easily provoked, and who seem to act in concert. And most of the rest of us just go away and leave you lot to it. It's not political discussion: it's perseverative attitudinising.

    I do not think you can have an Irish political forum that does not have room for republicanism. The problem is, many non-republican posters feel that the republican-themed threads are taking over the forum. The proposed solution seems to be "leave them/us to it", but this does not address the superthread or moderation problems outlined above.

    There is already a private republican forum. I do not think it is the obligation of this website to facilitate a public forum that is only for "like-minded" posters - that is what private forums are for. Frankly, if people cannot abide by the (hopefully tightened) norms and standards of the main forum - which should include a bit of cop-on - then perhaps they need to find a different venue.


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    #107
    Wolfe Tone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,670 ✭✭✭✭Wolfe Tone


    There is already a private republican forum. I do not think it is the obligation of this website to facilitate a public forum that is only for "like-minded" posters - that is what private forums are for.
    No one(certainly not me) wants the politics forum to be only for "like minded posters", sure things would suck if everyone agreed.


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    #108
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    southsiderosie wrote: »
    ........... The problem is, many non-republican posters feel that the republican-themed threads are taking over the forum. The proposed solution seems to be "leave them/us to it", but this does not address the superthread or moderation problems outlined above.

    ................

    I would suggest that feelings are just that. "republican themed threads" are in a minority, and of that minority not a few are started by non-Republicans - the odd one with divilment in mind.


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    #109
    FlutterinBantam
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,576 ✭✭✭✭FlutterinBantam


    Nodin wrote: »
    I would suggest that feelings are just that. "republican themed threads" are in a minority, and of that minority not a few are started by non-Republicans - the odd one with divilment in mind.


    Don't know where you get that view from .


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    #110
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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    #111
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    I'd dispute that, as there was/is rather more 'lynch FF'/public sector threads. This isn't of course to suggest that there isn't a few deviants who would be described as republican.

    Secondly, I have to say once again I'm suprised (in general, and here specifically at you) for the notion that friction and rancor are somehow alien to political debate (or debate/discussion forums in general).


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    #112
    Soldie
    Hosted Moderators Posts: 1,713 ✭✭✭Soldie


    Like southsiderosie, I disagree with most of the measures in the list. Premoderation is overkill, and restricting post length and frequency will affect too many people whose posting is not problematic. A super thread is also a dreadful idea in that it will merely give the handful of posters who enjoy slinging mud back and forth on the same topic ad nauseam a legitimate platform to do so. Such threads and posts should have no place in the politics forum at all.

    I think the solution is more moderation -- an active and strict moderating team with a zero tolerance policy. Eliot Rosewater also made a good point in that the moderating team needs to be unified so that individual moderators are not afraid to make tough but necessary decisions. Duplicate threads should be locked rapidly, and posters who are attempting to steer threads off topic should be warned and banned. The threads in which posters have been successful in dragging off topic should be locked. Such hard line measures will quickly show posters what is and is not allowed, and raise the quality of the discourse. I also think the moderators should be vigilant with posters who continue to make false claims even after having been corrected by other posters.

    And just to reiterate a point I made earlier: I think the current forum/sub-forum structure takes a lot away from the accessibility of the forum.


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    #113
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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    #114
    southsiderosie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,565 ✭✭✭southsiderosie


    Nodin wrote: »
    I would suggest that feelings are just that. "republican themed threads" are in a minority, and of that minority not a few are started by non-Republicans - the odd one with divilment in mind.

    And the republican-baiting ones should be nipped in the bud, and the OP infracted.

    I feel like a lot of these kinds of threads are of the "just don't look" variety - if they are ignored, they will slide off of the front page into oblivion. But they aren't ignored, and never-ending rows have a crowding-out effect.

    Maybe I am just more frustrated with the direction that the republican & NI related threads go because I am actually interested in NI politics and it seems like every single one gets totally derailed within the fist 30 posts. I tuned out a lot of the "FF must die" ones a while ago.


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    #115
    FlutterinBantam
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,576 ✭✭✭✭FlutterinBantam


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.


    That's how I see it too.


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    #116
    Soldie
    Hosted Moderators Posts: 1,713 ✭✭✭Soldie


    Nodin wrote: »
    Secondly, I have to say once again I'm suprised (in general, and here specifically at you) for the notion that friction and rancor are somehow alien to political debate (or debate/discussion forums in general).

    There's a difference between having a heated political debate and having a handful of posters arguing aggressively for 50 pages over the term "British Isles". Far too many republican/Northern Ireland/public sector threads are in the latter camp.


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    #117
    Soldie
    Hosted Moderators Posts: 1,713 ✭✭✭Soldie


    southsiderosie wrote: »
    And the republican-baiting ones should be nipped in the bud, and the OP infracted.

    This is an important point. For every republican poster with too much time on his hands, there's another poster who gets a kick out of baiting said republican poster. In most cases the republican poster cannot help but take the bait, but the person who started the thread should not go unpunished.


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    #118
    FlutterinBantam
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,576 ✭✭✭✭FlutterinBantam


    :confused:

    How many anti-republican threads are started in Politics.?

    very few buddy


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    #119
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    Yet they occurred, which would suggest that the narrative of the fiendish "republican poster" being the source of all evil is far from correct.
    Permabear wrote: »
    The kind of rancor found in the many trainwreck Northern Ireland/Sinn Féin threads is absolutely alien to the spirit of civil debate which this site strives to foster. That desire for civil debate is what we're talking about here, let it be noted..

    You'll get debate. It may be somewhat civil, but again this idea of everybody singing kumbaya is never going to happen on a site with any amount of traffic. People will now and again develop some sort of respect for a poster from 'opposite side', but you can't make people not feel strongly and react accordingly in certain situations. You can, however, lay out a set of ground rules that they are sanctioned with, should they exceed certain boundaries, thus keepin a lid on the worst excesses.
    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    It strikes me as being far from helpful that certain parties here are hell bent on singling out and blaming "republican posters" for the various ills of the Politics forum. We had a decent OP that laid out the assorted problems and unforunately one element of that has been seized on to attempt a witch hunt. Its beginning to get rather tiresome.
    Soldie wrote:
    There's a difference between having a heated political debate and having a handful of posters arguing aggressively for 50 pages over the term "British Isles". Far too many republican/Northern Ireland/public sector threads are in the latter camp. .

    Pigeon haters vs pigeon fanciers. If you allow pigeon related discussion, thats more than likely what it'll boil down to. 'natures finest creation should be protected' vs 'Exterminate the flying rats'. The mega thread is one solution, the second being banning certain 'done to death' subjects altogether.
    Soldie wrote:
    This is an important point. For every republican poster with too much time on his hands, there's another poster who gets a kick out of baiting said republican poster. In most cases the republican poster cannot help but take the bait, but the person who started the thread should not go unpunished. .

    Yep. And that 'throwing petrol on' is not confined to the 'national question'. Gender Quotas, Ivana Bacik....even threads on the labour party generally have descended into trench warfare.


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    #120
    Sand
    Registered Users Posts: 12,478 ✭✭✭✭Sand


    In defence of the restrictions on posts (1 per 60 minutes - for example), I think its worth considering if quantity is quality. Posts often reflect the amount time spent on considering them - sure, many people can contribute to 10 different threads/topic in an hour but if thats the amount of thought theyve given to their contribution then has that contribution risen above a kneejerk prejudgement? Or some snide/bitter remark? And if so, was that contribution worthwhile, or just drowning out useful contributions by burying them somewhere in the middle of 20 page deathspiral of a thread?

    When people talk about good threads, theyre rarely the ones where a couple of posters are trading sparky one liners every 5-10 minutes.

    I think the forum would be improved if we were spared people simply copying and pasting stock responses to ten different threads, even if theyre convinced their contributions are each pearls of wisdom distilled from the heavens. A timing restriction would be useful in encouraging posters to actually take more time to consider an issue than it takes for them to hit the reply button. It would also provide for cooloff time on emotive topics and so reduce the need for moderators to start unleashing the ban hammer.


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    #121
    metrovelvet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,376 ✭✭✭metrovelvet


    So politics is going to become as over regulated as the world is now.


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