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Irish Times reports that all pistols are to be banned

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  • Registered Users Posts: 14,949 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    CJhaughey wrote: »
    Sounds good but in reality there is no way that you will get full coverage in all weathers with a ground based radar system, too much sea clutter in heavy weather, any automatic reporting system which is trying to track the movements of small vessels on Irelands coastline would be more powerful than anything made so far.
    Small punts fishing lobster, mackerel, potting for crab etc are always moving in and offshore.
    It is impossible.
    One of the most important decisions that has been made with regard to spotting smuggling was the demanning of the Lighthouses around the coast.
    The lighthouse keepers had an intimate knowledge of the daily activities of the coast and would very quickly know when something wasn't *right*.


    Pipe dream guys.
    The USA tried to close off the Florida Straits in the 1980s against the Coloumbian Coke runners.This is appx 100 nautical miles of water between Cuba and Key West ,and the Bahamas on the other side of the run.
    They had DEA,BATF,US Coast Gaurd,FBI,State and local police forces,the US Airforce with their AWAC aircraft up to spot ships.A budget of somthing like 500 Million USD in 80s money PA ,and even tetherd ballons with over the horizon radar.
    End result Coke was cheaper than it ever was on the streets of any major US city!The Straits are still being patrolled in this "war on drugs".But the main players simply moved further up the West Coast of the States to Mexico or Oregon and ship their stuff in there.Only the lucky or the stupid do the Florida run anymore.
    Point is;We DO NOT have in the EU,not to mind Ireland.That kind of a location for a choke point,the resources,the man power or the money to set up such an interdiction net around our coast.Even the weather favours the coke cowboy.Again it is only the stupid/lucky that would run stuff across the Atlantic so it would be a complete waste of time and money.Apart from fishing edjits out of the briney from overturned Ribs that is.
    If you want to find asource of anything..The old adage.Follow the money is true. Trace it back to Amsterdam, ,from there down to the Balkans or thru former East block states.Controlled by various different ethnic Mafias.Across to Turkey where it isnt that much of a problem to aquire hardware of all kinds.Not to mind Syria,Iran and Iraq.
    That IMHO is the route the illegal guns are coming up to Europe.Looking at those Glocks in the pic.They are 3rd Gen stuff.So pretty new .This isnt any old stuff that has been nicked somwhere from a depot.This is brand new bought/stolen somwhere along the start of the chain.

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 209 ✭✭PJ Hunter


    Grizzly 45 wrote: »
    Pipe dream guys.
    The USA tried to close off the Florida Straits in the 1980s against the Coloumbian Coke runners.This is appx 100 nautical miles of water between Cuba and Key West ,and the Bahamas on the other side of the run.
    They had DEA,BATF,US Coast Gaurd,FBI,State and local police forces,the US Airforce with their AWAC aircraft up to spot ships.A budget of somthing like 500 Million USD in 80s money PA ,and even tetherd ballons with over the horizon radar.
    End result Coke was cheaper than it ever was on the streets of any major US city!The Straits are still being patrolled in this "war on drugs".But the main players simply moved further up the West Coast of the States to Mexico or Oregon and ship their stuff in there.Only the lucky or the stupid do the Florida run anymore.
    Point is;We DO NOT have in the EU,not to mind Ireland.That kind of a location for a choke point,the resources,the man power or the money to set up such an interdiction net around our coast.Even the weather favours the coke cowboy.Again it is only the stupid/lucky that would run stuff across the Atlantic so it would be a complete waste of time and money.Apart from fishing edjits out of the briney from overturned Ribs that is.
    If you want to find asource of anything..The old adage.Follow the money is true. Trace it back to Amsterdam, ,from there down to the Balkans or thru former East block states.Controlled by various different ethnic Mafias.Across to Turkey where it isnt that much of a problem to aquire hardware of all kinds.Not to mind Syria,Iran and Iraq.
    That IMHO is the route the illegal guns are coming up to Europe.Looking at those Glocks in the pic.They are 3rd Gen stuff.So pretty new .This isnt any old stuff that has been nicked somwhere from a depot.This is brand new bought/stolen somwhere along the start of the chain.

    How do you break the cycle. Does this sort of thing work..


    3 strikes and you go to jail.

    Judges son caught snorting coke. Strike 1..... €1000
    Again! 2......€5000
    Snow faced in the act of.:P 3......Jail


  • Subscribers Posts: 4,075 ✭✭✭IRLConor


    I recon it could be mostly software and a radar to computer interface so it would'nt be very expensive

    It would be at least 10x more complex than PPARS. Don't kid yourself if you think that would come cheap. Custom software is pricey. Custom software procured by governments is eye-wateringly expensive.

    (That said, if you hear of this going out to tender let me know. :D)
    But it would be 1000000x more effective than any handgun ban.

    1000000 times 0 is still 0, I'm afraid.

    Take all the money you'd spend on such a system and put it into getting more Gardai on the street and you'd probably see a bigger difference.

    Anti-smuggling operations are only one part of the solution and from what little I know a lot of the smuggled drugs arrives in container ships and passenger ferries. Since they'd be cleared by a radar defence system they'd be missed altogether.

    Customs search teams, drug dogs and x-ray machines for containers are expensive but they're way cheaper than radars and (crucially) are proven technologies.


  • Registered Users Posts: 498 ✭✭bigred


    Is this not gone all a bit Walter Mitty?? C'mon, why don't we just get sharks with frickin' laser beams to patrol Irish waters, and while we're at it, buy a SOSUS array from the US and some nuclear subs to keep the coast protected....
    Please mods.....


  • Subscribers Posts: 4,075 ✭✭✭IRLConor


    bigred wrote: »
    Is this not gone all a bit Walter Mitty?? C'mon, why don't we just get sharks with frickin' laser beams to patrol Irish waters, and while we're at it, buy a SOSUS array from the US and some nuclear subs to keep the coast protected....
    Please mods.....

    If it drifts any further I'll do a split'n'prune job.


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  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 16,257 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    Customs search teams, drug dogs and x-ray machines for containers are expensive but they're way cheaper than radars and (crucially) are proven technologies.

    Radar pattern analysis is not a new technology, the US has been using it both for military purposes (Tracking vehicle movements on the ground with the E-8 JSTARS) and US Customs have airborne radars (AWACS things) which do the same thing for small craft on water.

    Of course, it's a lot easier just to sign a piece of paper saying "I've gotten rid of handguns" and wave it around a' la Neville Chamberlain saying "We shall have peace in our time!" Makes great, affordable PR.

    NTM


  • Registered Users Posts: 559 ✭✭✭TargetWidow


    Where do the labour party stand on this issue? I'm shopping for a new party to vote for.... so far the search is dismal. FF= Anti-gun, FG= Anti-Gun, Sinn Fein=Anti-Gun, PDs = who?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 43 ancienthunter


    ok, understood. I can understand the problems however it would be a good tool to use. I still think It would be easy. Yes the drug/gun runner would probally use bad weather as a cover...so then use another method...shipping containers are always riskier.. enough of that for now anyway !


  • Registered Users Posts: 5 Wing Commander


    Give the cops guns and lets finish all this confusion


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,070 ✭✭✭cavan shooter


    Where do the labour party stand on this issue? I'm shopping for a new party to vote for.... so far the search is dismal. FF= Anti-gun, FG= Anti-Gun, Sinn Fein=Anti-Gun, PDs = who?

    Is this a game of odd one out ?:confused:
    Because I am pizzing myself laughing at the thought??


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  • Registered Users Posts: 40,038 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    Give the cops guns and lets finish all this confusion
    I take it that you think their armour-piercing submachine guns aren't sufficient for the purpose?


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,949 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    Libertas maybe??????:confused::confused:

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,230 ✭✭✭chem


    Give the cops guns and lets finish all this confusion

    Think you might of hit the nail on the head there WingC. The minister has said he dosent want to see the "other side" meaning US have handguns.

    Which means he sees criminals with handguns. Us with handguns. And who is in the middle? The ordinary Gardi with NO handguns.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 209 ✭✭PJ Hunter


    Grizzly 45 wrote: »
    Libertas maybe??????:confused::confused:

    Libertas????. Vatican religious political wing backed by the pentagon:eek: & http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZUOkGxGUVs


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,949 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    Sounds very pro gun to me then..:D:D:D:pac:

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 209 ✭✭PJ Hunter


    Grizzly 45 wrote: »
    Sounds very pro gun to me then..:D:D:D:pac:

    who calls the shots!:D:D:D:D:pac: ScarfacePacino.jpg



    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0RdmUne3CeY


  • Registered Users Posts: 40,038 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    From today's Irish Times Magazine:
    Gun enthusiasts caught in the political crossfire

    1229035646029_1.jpg?ts=1229131407
    True aim: Sally McCarthy and coach Joe Conroy in Fermoy Gun Club, Co Cork. Photograph: Daragh Mac Sweeney/ProvisionTrue aim: Sally McCarthy and coach Joe Conroy in Fermoy Gun Club, Co Cork. Photograph: Daragh Mac Sweeney/Provision

    MICHELLE McDONAGH

    ON A BITTERLY COLD Sunday morning in the depths of rural Co Cork, a man wearing earmuffs and thick goggles lifts a heavy rifle onto his shoulder and lines up his shot. He takes aim at his defenceless target 50 metres away. He smiles as he hits his target and prepares to reload.

    There is no scream of pain or shock, no blood or gore in sight, no damage caused at all, really, apart from a small hole in a large sheet of white paper.

    The man is one of over 100 members of the Fermoy Rifle Club, partaking in what target shooters regard as a "high performance sport" and which they claim is no threat whatsoever to public safety.

    With all of the negative publicity surrounding the increase in gun crime in Ireland, further ignited by last Sunday's shooting of Dubliner Aidan O'Kane, it is no surprise that any sport involving the use of firearms is viewed with suspicion. The Irish shooting community was particularly upset and annoyed by recent comments made by Wexford TD and Fine Gael spokesman for Justice, John Deasy, linking the licensing of handguns in Ireland with the rise in the murder rate. In an effort to dispel some of the myths around shooting sports, the Fermoy Rifle Club held an open day for politicians and the media at their range in Ballydague, Ballyhooley, Co Cork last Sunday.

    Legislation currently being drafted under the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Dermot Ahern will see a radical tightening of the regulations in relation to the licensing of firearms in Ireland, including a ban on the licensing of handguns. The aim of the legislation, according to the Minister, is to reduce the number of illegally held handguns in the country and the risk of stolen weapons being used to kill innocent people, or of a "Dunblane-type incident".

    However, Irish target-shooters argue that the Government is hitting the wrong people with the new law, The Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous) Provisions Bill. They claim Ireland already has the strictest regulations in Europe in relation to the licensing of firearms and point out that not a single licensed pistol (that they are aware of) has been stolen since 2004 when a 30-year-ban on the ownership of pistols was lifted.

    Gerry McCarthy of Fermoy Rifle Club says the reason the country is awash with illegal firearms in Limerick and other places is that the crime gangs have no problem getting them, as they are coming in with drug shipments clandestinely. "These people have no need to come knocking on our doors - a single-shot precision rifle would be worthless to them."

    Kieran Barry, founding member of the Fermoy club, one of the largest and best-known shooting clubs in the country, points out that the shooting community welcomes the introduction of any new regulations that will increase the safety of what is already a very safe sport. A former garda, he says the Minister is looking at the wrong people, adding, "We are no threat to public safety".

    He was introduced to firearms during his Garda training. Like a number of his fellow club members, he has had the honour of successfully representing his county in national competition on several occasions. He set up the Fermoy Rifle club in April 1992 as a target-shooting club with a group of seven others. Today, the club has over 100 members from all over Munster and is one of the largest of the country's 30 or so similar organisations.

    "OUR MAIN AIM was to provide a facility for target shooters who were interested in competing on a national and international level," he says. "We have worked closely with the ballistics section of An Garda Síochána to develop this facility and sought their advice since they became involved in regulating the sport. They are happy that this is a well-run, safe facility licensed through our local Superintendent."

    Anyone wanting to use the club's facilities must have a license and undergo a full safety course. Once they arrive at the club, they must sign in, report to the range safety officer on duty and get permission to go to a firing point. Their firearm is inspected before shooting begins and, at the end of the shoot, the gun is inspected again, dismantled and returned to its safety case. "All shooting is from a static position, there is no movement with loaded firearms. Nobody is allowed to walk around carrying guns on their hips, although people tend to believe what they see on TV in action movies," says Barry.

    There are five different ranges at the Fermoy Club, covering disciplines such as prone target rifle, bench rest rifle and Olympic pistol. "The attraction for myself is the ability to hit a piece of paper accurately with a bullet. It's a challenge between the climate and various conditions on the day to hit a 9mm bull at 50 metres consistently on every occasion; you only get one chance at every shot."

    Gerry McCarthy, who is the international coordinator of the 1500 Precision Pistol Shooting (PPC) Competition in Ireland, points out that competing on an international level in shooting involves a vast amount of training day after day as well as putting hundreds of rounds of ammunition down a range. "It's very much like playing golf: you only do well if you practice and, like golf, shooting involves 80 per cent mental concentration and effort."

    It's also an expensive hobby, according to McCarthy, with a competition-standard firearm typically costing in excess of €3,000 and up to €15,000 a year for ammunition to keep a shooter at the top of his/her sport.

    McCarthy highlights the lengths that gun-owners have to go to to get a license to own a firearm in this country. All licensed owners are already strictly vetted by the Garda and, following the enactment of the new legislation, the restrictions will be even further tightened.

    Although shooting is a predominantly male sport, the Fermoy club is working with the Irish Sports Council's Women in Sports initiative to encourage more women into the sport. The first qualified firearms instructor in the country, Bernadette Murphy, is a member of the Fermoy club.

    Gun Law: A round-up of legislation

    While the vast majority of firearms licences in this country are for hunting rifles and shotguns, target-shooting also has a long history in Ireland.

    In August 1972, the then-minister of justice, Desmond O'Malley, made an order under the Irish Firearms Act 1964, Clause 4 (1) that all private, registered pistols and rifles (above .22 calibre) be handed in for a maximum of one month. However, the one-month Temporary Custody Order was extended by the government for 32 years, which had a major impact on shooting sports in Ireland.

    The extension of the Custody Order was only brought to an end in 2004 by a constitutional challenge by a private citizen, Frank Brophy. Within three months of the ban being lifted, an Irish target-shooting team competed in the Austrian Open Shooting Championship and took six podium places.

    The number of handgun licences granted has increased significantly since 2004. According to Department of Justice figures, just over 233,000 firearms are licensed in the State. Just over 177,000 are for shotguns, with rifles accounting for 54,000.

    In July of this year, Justice Peter Charleton said that there was "a pressing need" for drawing together into a clear law the multiple "piecemeal" rules on the control of handguns here.

    He said reasonable people were entitled to feel alarmed about a large increase in the number of pistols licensed for private use in Ireland in recent years.


  • Registered Users Posts: 314 ✭✭Kryten


    Good article, Fair play to the Fermoy Lads. We need more PR like this.


  • Registered Users Posts: 498 ✭✭bigred


    Kryten wrote: »
    Good article, Fair play to the Fermoy Lads. We need more PR like this.
    Always helps when the subject matter is easy on the eye :)
    Good to see it. Once the public doesn't think it's a laser sight on the cylinder. Joe must have got the Scatt in the end.


  • Registered Users Posts: 804 ✭✭✭Sikamick


    Well done Kieran and Gerry, this is a great article and it is good to see one of our leading members who was in the Garda and also involved in the sport giving some leadership.

    Well done again.

    Michael O'Connor
    Secretary to Dublin Target Sports Club
    Also to The Vintage Classic Rifle Association of Ireland.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,630 ✭✭✭marlin vs


    It's good to read a decent , and well put together article that show's the sport for what it is. Well done Fermoy.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,194 ✭✭✭Trojan911


    A girl I work with was there on that morning, she has a Glock, and said it was a positive day from strat to finish.


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,949 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    Did any TD or ministers show up??And what were their reactions??:confused:

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,194 ✭✭✭Trojan911


    Grizzly 45 wrote: »
    Did any TD or ministers show up??And what were their reactions??:confused:

    Not sure on that one, all she said was "Dignitaries " were there. I'll ask her tomorrow morning. As for reactions, she said they had a good day, as in everyone was impressed with the set up etc.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,570 ✭✭✭Rovi


    Some incredibly ill-informed 'debate' on the subject:

    http://dynamic.rte.ie/quickaxs/209-rte-marianfinucane-2008-12-14.smil

    Needs RealPlayer, 'guns' segment begins at 36:50.


    :mad:


  • Registered Users Posts: 207 ✭✭Sika_Stalker


    Rovi wrote: »
    Some incredibly ill-informed 'debate' on the subject:

    http://dynamic.rte.ie/quickaxs/209-rte-marianfinucane-2008-12-14.smil

    Needs RealPlayer, 'guns' segment begins at 36:50.


    :mad:


    lord help us
    :(:(:(:(:(


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,949 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    Indeed. I never liked Marian Finaucane anyway,so I am somwhat biased[,her two tone voice grinds my gears:mad:]
    You would swear that the panel of parrotts , had not read or heard a counter arguement or other facts in the last month!
    Or do some journalists and politicans just when confronted with other opinions and facts here just put their hands over their ears and go ",Not hearing anything.Lalalala .....lalalala....if I keep doing this the other nasty facts will go away...lalalala":(.

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,289 ✭✭✭dresden8


    Grizzly 45 wrote: »
    Indeed. I never liked Marian Finaucane anyway,so I am somwhat biased[,her two tone voice grinds my gears:mad:]
    You would swear that the panel of parrotts , had not read or heard a counter arguement or other facts in the last month!
    Or do some journalists and politicans just when confronted with other opinions and facts here just put their hands over their ears and go ",Not hearing anything.Lalalala .....lalalala....if I keep doing this the other nasty facts will go away...lalalala":(.

    Yes, yes they do.


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Rovi wrote: »
    Some incredibly ill-informed 'debate' on the subject:

    http://dynamic.rte.ie/quickaxs/209-rte-marianfinucane-2008-12-14.smil

    Needs RealPlayer, 'guns' segment begins at 36:50.


    :mad:

    Oh. Dear. God.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 13,129 ✭✭✭✭jmayo


    First time posting on shooting forum but I have posted on this on politics forum so please bear with me.

    I could not believe listening to this originally and thanks to Rovi's link it sounds even worse when you sit and listen to it again.
    They jump from legally held handguns to guns coming in with drug shipments and thus them being used by gangs. Then they jump back to asking what people use handguns for and someone answers target shooting.
    So according to some well known Irish media figures, target shooters get their guns with drug shipments, and then probably loan them to kids to kill people :rolleyes:

    It must be great to see all the guys friom Southhill or Moyross in Limerick down in Henry Street station asking if the local superintendant will grant them a license for their Sigs, their glocks, or their Berettas.
    Maybe they could even get a license for that old Ak47 :rolleyes:

    What a bunch of muppets we have in this country and to think some of these are elected representatives.
    No wonder the country is bollizxed.


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