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Bus Strike (read warning in post #1)

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    #2
    Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime
    Registered Users Posts: 3,964 ✭✭✭Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime


    Irish rail will strike too if it all goes ahead.


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    #3
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,552 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime wrote: »
    Irish rail will strike too if it all goes ahead.



    And what basis do you have for that statement?


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    #4
    dublindiehard
    Closed Accounts Posts: 172 ✭✭dublindiehard


    NBRU said it.

    Fully public run = run for benefit of the staff
    fully private run = run for benefit of the shareholders.

    Both models involve people syphooning off the profits for their own interests. which is why a combination of the two is needed.


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    #5
    mickydoomsux
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,290 ✭✭✭mickydoomsux


    Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime wrote: »
    Irish rail will strike too if it all goes ahead.

    Bus Eireann didn't go on strike when we did last year.

    Carry on with your classic Irish "shur, dere all de same thing" nonsense.


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    #6
    Jamie2k9
    Registered Users Posts: 10,669 ✭✭✭✭Jamie2k9


    If IE are asked to vote and vote in favor of action, IE should take out an injunction against any action as there is no valid grounds for them to strike.
    Bus Eireann didn't go on strike when we did last year.

    Carry on with your classic Irish "shur, dere all de same thing" nonsense.

    It didn't get to a point where they were going to ask members to vote. according to NBRU Irish Rail will also be asked to vote this time.


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    #7
    Kermit.de.frog
    Registered Users Posts: 23,481 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    The sooner the Dublin Bus monopoly is smashed the better.


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    #8
    clunked
    Registered Users Posts: 368 ✭✭clunked


    Kermit.de.frog wrote: »
    The sooner the Dublin Bus monopoly is smashed the better.

    A very considered response, thank you!

    Listening to RTE 1 radio this morning, a representative from the private operators more or less admitted that it would result in lower wages for drivers. As the NTA tender documents seemed to suggest that a tendering company needed to have a turnover over €40 million per anum, you would have only multinational companies or CIE group companies.

    The unions are only defending the legitimate rights of their members.


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    #9
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 28,987 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    dublindiehard wrote: »
    NBRU said it.

    Fully public run = run for benefit of the staff
    fully private run = run for benefit of the shareholders.

    Both models involve people syphooning off the profits for their own interests. which is why a combination of the two is needed.
    so double the "problem" then? great. no, i'm afraid better to have the current companies and force reform then wasting time tendering when companies by the looks of it won't have any say in how things are done.
    Jamie2k9 wrote: »
    If IE are asked to vote and vote in favor of action, IE should take out an injunction against any action as there is no valid grounds for them to strike.

    well, some may feel this is a valid ground as the belief might be that irish rail could be next. where they are going to get the money from to take an injunction out though, i don't know. i don't think IE will vote for strike action anyway.
    Kermit.de.frog wrote: »
    The sooner the Dublin Bus monopoly is smashed the better.
    why is that then. whats it going to achieve. i don't like dublin bus isn't an answer.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #10
    Infini
    Registered Users Posts: 4,573 ✭✭✭Infini


    Tbh people tend to be jealous of anyone who has a decent job nowadays its that kind of attitude that I see in alot of pro privatisation posts here. Tbh I dont blame anyone for defending their job its what you do because theres plenty of people out there who would drive the place into the dirt just for the sake of profit.

    The whole reason the NBRU is balloting for the strike option is to stop people from being forced into lower wages/minimum wages for these jobs in an economy thats getting more expensive. Its to stop a race to the bottom and creating a situation like in london where people are payed less for the same job as someone else.

    Was no suprise theyre gonna pull all 3 companies out on strike this time if they push it remember what happened with irish ferries years back this is the same thing via the back door this time.

    End of the day privatisation doesnt make anything better only worse.


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    #11
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,587 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    Apparently one of the key reasons Irish Rail will get involved is because it could effect the commercial interests of CIE.

    Have I missed something, or is Irish Rail now a private company?


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    #12
    frankoreagan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 78 ✭✭frankoreagan


    Dublin Bus' service is shoddy and overpriced, only people benefiting at the moment are staff. If it takes a private operator to come in and shake things up, and get DB to pull the finger out, so be it. DB have had it their way for decades, and the current shambles of a service is the best they can come up with. Can't see how a private operator could do worse tbh.


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    #13
    Icepick
    Registered Users Posts: 2,454 ✭✭✭Icepick


    clunked wrote: »
    Listening to RTE 1 radio this morning, a representative from the private operators more or less admitted that it would result in lower wages for drivers.
    If that is the market rate, good.
    Because in that case, they are wasting our money and offering poor service at the same time.

    The more they strike, the more should be privatized.


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    #14
    Icepick
    Registered Users Posts: 2,454 ✭✭✭Icepick


    Infini2 wrote: »
    theres plenty of people out there who would drive the place into the dirt just for the sake of profit.
    For the sake of profit, the service would actually get better and cheaper.
    For the sake of the unions and self entitlement, we have the current situation.


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    #15
    punisher5112
    Registered Users Posts: 24,647 ✭✭✭✭punisher5112


    If they were to lower our wages I would be better off not working.


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    #16
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,587 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    punisher5112 wrote: »
    If they were to lower our wages I would be better off not working.

    So you are saying that you aren't paid much more than €800 a month? Come on, we both know that the average yearly take home amount in cash for Dublin Bus drivers is a few times more than €10,000 a year.


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    #17
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,587 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    Infini2 wrote: »
    Tbh people tend to be jealous of anyone who has a decent job nowadays its that kind of attitude that I see in alot of pro privatisation posts here. Tbh I dont blame anyone for defending their job its what you do because theres plenty of people out there who would drive the place into the dirt just for the sake of profit.

    The whole reason the NBRU is balloting for the strike option is to stop people from being forced into lower wages/minimum wages for these jobs in an economy thats getting more expensive. Its to stop a race to the bottom and creating a situation like in london where people are payed less for the same job as someone else.

    Was no suprise theyre gonna pull all 3 companies out on strike this time if they push it remember what happened with irish ferries years back this is the same thing via the back door this time.

    End of the day privatisation doesnt make anything better only worse.

    A public service is not about
    - Providing the most jobs possible
    - Providing the best possible conditions for staff
    - Making any companies management happy

    A public service is about
    - Providing the best service for the public.

    I note that you were only too happy to talk about jobs, staff conditions and keeping people within your company happy but not about the actual service to the customers, which is vastly more important.

    The thing is, staff in Dublin Bus don't want a true public company, what they want is a company with all the benefits of the public sector company and all of the benefits of a private company, with the downside of either.

    Years Dublin Bus staff spent complaining that private companies were evil since they didn't care about the service, just about what suited the company and it's staff and shareholders and screw the public. Some years down the line, we have staff of the very same company, saying that staff should stand up for their rights, the company should do what is best for itself and it's staff, and that is what is most important.

    As I said, neither a fully private or public model is ideal in Ireland. The only difference between both models is that in one a private company is running for the benefit of it's shareholders and themselves, and in the other the public company is running for the benefit of it's staff and themselves. That is why a regulated style tendering system is an excellent idea. It basically takes away the power of either party to use their vested interests against the greater good.

    Thats why you have public companies hell bent on stopping anything to do with it, and private companies saying it's far too weak and they are not going far enough. At the end of the day it's time for the passenger and the ordinary Gerry and Mary on the streets to be put first, and not before time too.


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    #18
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 28,987 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    Icepick wrote: »
    The more they strike, the more should be privatized.


    oh dear. someone should tell him strikes happen in private sector transport companies, including the much beloved london bus system
    frankoreagan wrote: »
    If it takes a private operator to come in and shake things up

    shake what up. the NTA is making all the decisians. if we had both dublin bus and private running on the same route you would have a point, but i don't see anything that states that is going to happen.
    frankoreagan wrote: »
    Can't see how a private operator could do worse tbh.

    well that is hardly selling it is it? if thats the case then apart from a tocan jesture to this apparent EU law then whats the point?

    Icepick wrote: »
    For the sake of profit, the service would actually get better and cheaper.

    really? yeah, i'm sure. again, the NTA is making the decisians, the companies, well, looks like they don't get a say. i'd also imagine the NTA will continue to set the fares.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #19
    clunked
    Registered Users Posts: 368 ✭✭clunked


    devnull wrote: »
    A public service is not about
    - Providing the most jobs possible
    - Providing the best possible conditions for staff
    - Making any companies management happy

    A public service is about
    - Providing the best service for the public.

    I note that you were only too happy to talk about jobs, staff conditions and keeping people within your company happy but not about the actual service to the customers, which is vastly more important.

    The thing is, staff in Dublin Bus don't want a true public company, what they want is a company with all the benefits of the public sector company and all of the benefits of a private company, with the downside of either.

    Years Dublin Bus staff spent complaining that private companies were evil since they didn't care about the service, just about what suited the company and it's staff and shareholders and screw the public. Some years down the line, we have staff of the very same company, saying that staff should stand up for their rights, the company should do what is best for itself and it's staff, and that is what is most important.

    As I said, neither a fully private or public model is ideal in Ireland. The only difference between both models is that in one a private company is running for the benefit of it's shareholders and themselves, and in the other the public company is running for the benefit of it's staff and themselves. That is why a regulated style tendering system is an excellent idea. It basically takes away the power of either party to use their vested interests against the greater good.

    Thats why you have public companies hell bent on stopping anything to do with it, and private companies saying it's far too weak and they are not going far enough. At the end of the day it's time for the passenger and the ordinary Gerry and Mary on the streets to be put first, and not before time too.

    That's Gerry and Mary who work for the NTA or Gerry and Mary who manage an international transport conglomerate because it sure as hell won't be Gerry or Mary waiting for the no. 16 bus to Harold's Cross. I hasten to add I am not a Dublin Bus employee nor anyone in my family or circle of friends are.


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    #20
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 28,987 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    devnull wrote: »
    A public service is not about
    - Providing the most jobs possible
    - Providing the best possible conditions for staff
    - Making any companies management happy

    A public service is about
    - Providing the best service for the public.

    I note that you were only too happy to talk about jobs, staff conditions and keeping people within your company happy but not about the actual service to the customers, which is vastly more important.

    The thing is, staff in Dublin Bus don't want a true public company, what they want is a company with all the benefits of the public sector company and all of the benefits of a private company, with the downside of either.

    Years Dublin Bus staff spent complaining that private companies were evil since they didn't care about the service, just about what suited the company and it's staff and shareholders and screw the public. Some years down the line, we have staff of the very same company, saying that staff should stand up for their rights, the company should do what is best for itself and it's staff, and that is what is most important.

    As I said, neither a fully private or public model is ideal in Ireland. The only difference between both models is that in one a private company is running for the benefit of it's shareholders and themselves, and in the other the public company is running for the benefit of it's staff and themselves. That is why a regulated style tendering system is an excellent idea. It basically takes away the power of either party to use their vested interests against the greater good.

    Thats why you have public companies hell bent on stopping anything to do with it, and private companies saying it's far too weak and they are not going far enough. At the end of the day it's time for the passenger and the ordinary Gerry and Mary on the streets to be put first, and not before time too.
    the staff have to look out for themselves and their family members first. thats the same in any company. i'd rather the current system of dublin bus apparently "running for the benefit of staff" which i don't believe, then a private one running for the benefit of shareholders. as i said as the NTA look to be the ones making the decisians in full then dublin bus can be kept running all services and sorted out. i just cannot see any point to this tendering seeing as it looks to me like the companies won't have a say

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #21
    Jamie2k9
    Registered Users Posts: 10,669 ✭✭✭✭Jamie2k9


    Lots of talk about wages being driven down which is a problem however on the other hand unions and staff of CIE will soon be looking for their gold plated salaries/pensions to be restored pre financial crisis (very high % of employees) which isn't sustainable either.

    There needs to be private operations allowed compete and win routes for passenger benefit but most impotently to keep staff at CIE in the real world when to comes to wages and not in the bubble they were in for years and will return to in the near future if unions have their way.


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    #22
    Jamie2k9
    Registered Users Posts: 10,669 ✭✭✭✭Jamie2k9


    well, some may feel this is a valid ground as the belief might be that irish rail could be next. where they are going to get the money from to take an injunction out though, i don't know. i don't think IE will vote for strike action anyway.

    Staff in IE with no brains yes but external operations will not touch our network for a sting of reasons. I don't think they would vote in favour either but it's possible. As for the money, can they afford to lose 500,000 like they did last year because of action.


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    #23
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,587 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    end of the road wrote: »
    the staff have to look out for themselves and their family members first. thats the same in any company.

    In a normal company I'd agree. But Semi states and public companies are not normal companies, they are companies that are ran for the benefit of the public that fund them not for the benefit of themselves.

    If people want to be in a company for self gain, that is what the private sector is for, but the people in DB want a weird hybrid with all the good parts of both, but none of the bad parts of either.
    i'd rather the current system of dublin bus apparently "running for the benefit of staff" which i don't believe, then a private one running for the benefit of shareholders.

    I'd rather have a system where the company is ran for neither, and that is what the NTA are proposing.
    i just cannot see any point to this tendering seeing as it looks to me like the companies won't have a say

    Both me and you know it's not a simple as the NTA making an order and everyone will follow it no questions asked.


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    #24
    dfx-
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 15,663 Mod ✭✭✭✭dfx-


    clunked wrote: »
    That's Gerry and Mary who work for the NTA or Gerry and Mary who manage an international transport conglomerate because it sure as hell won't be Gerry or Mary waiting for the no. 16 bus to Harold's Cross. I hasten to add I am not a Dublin Bus employee nor anyone in my family or circle of friends are.

    I'm not a Dublin Bus employee or anyone in my close or extended family either.

    It doesn't take inside knowledge to know that the NTA, government and sainted private companies have no more consideration for Gerry and Mary standing waiting on the 16 in the rain than the dogs on the street.

    It will about running as little resources for as much money as possible. Gerry and Mary will be an inconvenience who will be fobbed off if they complain.

    If the NTA did, they would already try to fix the shambolic 16. But they don't and they've had years to do so.


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    #25
    Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime
    Registered Users Posts: 3,964 ✭✭✭Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime


    The way i look at it all is private companies are set up with one goal only in mind. To make profit.

    The routes that are up for tendering now are loss making

    If a private company does take them they would have to do something drastic with the routes so they don't lose so much money. I can't see that been any good.

    Again as others have said. With one body making all the decisions anyway (including fares) then what is the point to it all ?

    <snip> -- if people who work or worked for companies want to tell stories they can do so elsewhere, boards.ie isn't in a position to verify such claims or seek comments from the companies in question -- moderator </snip>


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    #26
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 28,987 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    Jamie2k9 wrote: »
    Lots of talk about wages being driven down which is a problem however on the other hand unions and staff of CIE will soon be looking for their gold plated salaries/pensions to be restored pre financial crisis (very high % of employees) which isn't sustainable either.

    There needs to be private operations allowed compete and win routes for passenger benefit but most impotently to keep staff at CIE in the real world when to comes to wages and not in the bubble they were in for years and will return to in the near future if unions have their way.
    there doesn't "need to be" if private operators want to come in it should be along side dublin bus not instead of. having private companies coming just to "keep CIE staff" in the apparent real world isn't a good reason or a reason at all frankly for them to come in

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #27
    Van.Bosch
    Registered Users Posts: 2,850 ✭✭✭Van.Bosch


    Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime wrote: »
    The way i look at it all is private companies are set up with one goal only in mind. To make profit.

    The routes that are up for tendering now are loss making

    If a private company does take them they would have to do something drastic with the routes so they don't lose so much money. I can't see that been any good.

    Again as others have said. With one body making all the decisions anyway (including fares) then what is the point to it all ?

    ...

    They get paid a fixed price, the route could lose millions and it doesn't impact the private company.


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    #28
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 28,987 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    Van.Bosch wrote: »
    They get paid a fixed price, the route could lose millions and it doesn't impact the private company.
    exactly. where the money is going to come from to pay such an attractive rate i don't know

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #29
    Hilly Bill
    Registered Users Posts: 6,039 ✭✭✭Hilly Bill


    devnull wrote: »
    So you are saying that you aren't paid much more than €800 a month? Come on, we both know that the average yearly take home amount in cash for Dublin Bus drivers is a few times more than €10,000 a year.

    There are some on the scratcher that get around €800 a week never mind a month when you add up all the extra allowance they get.


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    #30
    mickydoomsux
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,290 ✭✭✭mickydoomsux


    devnull wrote: »
    In a normal company I'd agree. But Semi states and public companies are not normal companies, they are companies that are ran for the benefit of the public that fund them not for the benefit of themselves.

    So everyone working in either state or semi-state companies should accept crap pay and conditions to provide a certain ideal level of service?

    Good luck getting anyone but the most desperate to do those jobs so. I can't wait to see nurses, doctors, gardai, etc along with public transport workers on minimum wage so that the end user of the service can have white glove treatment.


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    #31
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,587 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    A definition of crap pay is very subjective, I don't think you will get anyone who says they are paid too much, even if they are and that goes with any industry.

    I don't want anyone to get the minimum wage in the sectors or any of the transport company, but at the same time, the current salary bill in the CIE companies is higher than other businesses in the transport sector.

    I don't think your average Dublin Bus employee is going to be able to earn anything like €800 a week on social welfare as easy as that, Of course it's possible to get more than the standard JSB rate on the dole with add-ons, but really how many people will get all of them, and quite frankly, some people who do get it for good reasons, be that due to disability, or other reasons.


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