The Panel

2wsxcde3 · 17-06-2012 4:16pm

P.C.Plod wrote: »

Thanks for sharing your info.
All sounds good and quite plausible.
What you said at the end about 2 options, the panel, obviously, is there to be called upon and Medicals and physicals will have to be done again. But it won't be as simple as promoting reserves with good records, they will have to go through some sort of recruitment process, at least interviews, Medicals and physicals. There are rules and regulations for recruiting in the public sector.
Hope your right about October and next year though

Yeah we had to sit an interview, do written tests, get vetted, and do a medical to become reserves. Its not like we signed a form and sent it away and got our uniform in the post.

Tyron Jara · 17-06-2012 5:22pm

P.C.Plod wrote: »

Thanks for sharing your info.
All sounds good and quite plausible.
What you said at the end about 2 options, the panel, obviously, is there to be called upon and Medicals and physicals will have to be done again. But it won't be as simple as promoting reserves with good records, they will have to go through some sort of recruitment process, at least interviews, Medicals and physicals. There are rules and regulations for recruiting in the public sector.
Hope your right about October and next year though

Oh dont get me wrong Im not talking about promoting reserves. Im talking that they will be offered a chance to attend the interview stage 1. Although reserves technically can be promoted to garda it would mean going back to templemoore for a while for exams and more training and like any promotion its based on an interview. No reserve will be promoted without extra training and learning more law that will not happen. However I could see reserves getting a chance for an interview.

2wsxcde3 wrote: »

Yeah we had to sit an interview, do written tests, get vetted, and do a medical to become reserves. Its not like we signed a form and sent it away and got our uniform in the post.

Ya and if this promoting reserves actually happens we will be required to do the interview and more tests and training again.

Is there anyone on the panel who is a reserve?? I say that is the best position to be in right now.

blueforce · 17-06-2012 5:41pm

The Reserves had to do the exact same as everyone else on the panel to get into Templemore. There were at least 2 people in my Reserve phase that were on the panel and they were told to join the Reserves, and they did. I feel sorry for anyone on the panel, getting that far and then suddenly being told recruitment has stopped. That was a bad decision by the Government at the time, but that was also over 4 years ago. The whole thing about not being able to promoting Reserves to full timers, it might not be possible now but that could well change in the morning.

The recruitment process will be nothing like what it used to be. I strongly believe that they will take only from the Reserves (we all know the logic behine this, so I'm not going into it again) Any reserve that applies will be called for an interview (maybe by the Cig or Super in your own station first and then maybe one in HQ) a medical may or may not be required, seeing as we have all done and passed one. You would then do 2 weeks introduction training down in Templemore (form filling in, etc) then it would be back to your station where you would get most of your training on the job. Legal studies would probably be done at a local level aswel. Just my thoughts on the issue.

2wsxcde3 · 17-06-2012 6:32pm

There's actually a precedent in this country for reserves being allowed to sign up as full-time guards:

Past reserve forces

During the emergency there were two reserve forces to the Garda Síochána, An Taca Síochána and the Local Security Force.
An Taca Síochána had the power of arrest and wore uniform, and were allowed to leave the reserve or sign-up as full members of the Garda Síochána at the end of the war before the reserve was disbanded.

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garda_S%C3%ADoch%C3%A1na

Its not clear if they had to go through a recruitment process or simply sign up to further training to become full time members. Maybe someone might know?

thekopend · 18-06-2012 12:43am

2wsxcde3 wrote: »

There's actually a precedent in this country for reserves being allowed to sign up as full-time guards:

Past reserve forces

During the emergency there were two reserve forces to the Garda Síochána, An Taca Síochána and the Local Security Force.
An Taca Síochána had the power of arrest and wore uniform, and were allowed to leave the reserve or sign-up as full members of the Garda Síochána at the end of the war before the reserve was disbanded.
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garda_S%C3%ADoch%C3%A1na

Its not clear if they had to go through a recruitment process or simply sign up to further training to become full time members. Maybe someone might know?

are you seriously comparing the 1940's to today, your talking about a time when gardai had nothing more than bicycles and had whistles instead of radios. i doubt this will have any relevance or influence on what might happen now.

bluetop · 18-06-2012 2:04pm

thekopend wrote: »

are you seriously comparing the 1940's to today, your talking about a time when gardai had nothing more than bicycles and had whistles instead of radios. i doubt this will have any relevance or influence on what might happen now.

Regardless of it been from the 1940's or not, a precedence has already been set, dont they use this all the time in court cases, why should this be any different, its all down to money which the country does not have, so the cheap route would be the obvious choice.

2wsxcde3 · 18-06-2012 7:07pm

I suppose the main difference being that they're not looking to disband the reserves in our situation, but instead increase their numbers to hit the 10% of the force target. So you dont have a load of reserves sitting around with nowhere to go.

bluetop · 18-06-2012 10:37pm

2wsxcde3 wrote: »

I suppose the main difference being that they're not looking to disband the reserves in our situation, but instead increase their numbers to hit the 10% of the force target. So you dont have a load of reserves sitting around with nowhere to go.

Im sure they have well exceeded the 10% at this point, there is more and more intakes every few months.

thekopend · 18-06-2012 10:56pm

bluetop wrote: »

Regardless of it been from the 1940's or not, a precedence has already been set, dont they use this all the time in court cases, why should this be any different, its all down to money which the country does not have, so the cheap route would be the obvious choice.

precedence has to be used in court for obvious reasons, its called common law or case law. if it wasn't used the law would contradict itself. these are two completely different things, why should they be any different? because they are. just because reserve promotion happened before doesn't mean it has to or will now. from what i can see the reserves back then were alot closer to gards then todays reserves.

as for the choice that would save money, there's two sides to that, there was an argument about that months ago if you read it you might not be so convinced about your ideas. as it stands the cheapest way to recruit at the moment is from the panel whether you like it or not, and im not part of the panel either.

bluetop · 19-06-2012 1:39pm

thekopend wrote: »

As for the choice that would save money, there's two sides to that, there was an argument about that months ago if you read it you might not be so convinced about your ideas. as it stands the cheapest way to recruit at the moment is from the panel whether you like it or not, and im not part of the panel either.

Cant see that been true can you, as reserves have already on the job experience, they also have their uniforms, the panel dont have any of that, plus they would have to be in the collage for about 2 yrs, so all that compared to where the reserves are now would never add up to a saving.

Sierra Oscar · 19-06-2012 4:50pm

bluetop wrote: »

Regardless of it been from the 1940's or not, a precedence has already been set, dont they use this all the time in court cases, why should this be any different, its all down to money which the country does not have, so the cheap route would be the obvious choice.

There is a glaringly obvious flaw with linking An Taca Síochána & the Local Security Force to the Garda Reserve, and that flaw is down to the fact that both previous reserve forces were set up in times of an emergency with the intention of remaining in operation only as long as a State of Emergence existed. The Garda Reserve is entirely different, it is a statuary body which is envisaged to remain in place indefinitely.

Recruitment from An Taca Síochána came about because the government wished to abolish the reserve force, there is little to no indiciaton that the government is set to abolish the Garda Reserve - rather the opposite is the case, whereby Garda management seemingly wants to increase the manpower of the reserve and not reduce it.

The purpose and function of An Taca Síochána was entirely different to that of today's Garda Reserve in anycase. An Taca Síochána was established in September of 1939 following the outbreak of World War 2, when it became apparent that the numbers of An Garda Síochána would need to be bolstered to ensure the security of the state and that State of Emergency which had been announced could be enforces. The authorities did not have the time to put candidates through the entire training process, and instead the Commissioner invited certain people (the vast majority who were on the list to join the full force anyway) to join An Taca Síochána.

So basically, the creation of An Taca Síochána essentially allowed those who were on the equivalent of the olden days 'panel' to immediately enter the force so as to bolster manpower at the outbreak of war. The statuary nature of the force meant that the government could abolish it and dismiss its members at ease should the State of Emergency end and a reduction in manpower be required. When An Taca Síochána was disbanded its members were allowed to join the force full time because most of them were on the list to enter into An Garda Síochána from day one.

So yeah what I have said in a long winded way is that, even though there is a precedent to recruit from a reserve force, the current reserve force is nothing like the previous forces so I would not hold my breath if I were you. Not saying that it won't happen, it very much could if the reserve was set to be abolished like before, but it is difficult to make the comparison.

bluetop wrote: »

Im sure they have well exceeded the 10% at this point, there is more and more intakes every few months.

As far as I can tell, judging from the latest operational figures provided by the Commissioner last May, the current strength of the reserve actually rests at just over 6% of the entire force.

bluetop · 19-06-2012 5:53pm

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

As far as I can tell, judging from the latest operational figures provided by the Commissioner last May, the current strength of the reserve actually rests at just over 6% of the entire force.

I think you are wrong on your figures, according to my calculations there is more, and i think its 3% off target and that is from April 12, which has had intakes for the last 2 months as well, so i would suggest its in excess of that now.

A force of 13,500 members 10% of that is 1350 reserve members, with 921 members all ready attested and serving, that would leave a shortfall of 3% or 430 members, but as i have said above with the intakes that have been taking place of the last few month, plus the ones in training on phase 3/4 could well push it in excess of the 10% mark.

source of info below

http://debates.oireachtas.ie/dail/2012/06/12/00365.asp

Sierra Oscar · 19-06-2012 5:57pm

bluetop wrote: »
I think you are wrong on your figures, according to my calculations there is more, and i think its 3% off target and that is from April 12, which has had intakes for the last 2 months as well, so i would suggest its in excess of that now.

A force of 13,500 members 10% of that is 1350 reserve members, with 921 members all ready attested and serving, that would leave a shortfall of 3% or 430 members, but as i have said above with the intakes that have been taking place of the last few month, plus the ones in training on phase 3/4 could well push it in excess of the 10% mark.

source of info below
http://debates.oireachtas.ie/dail/2012/06/12/00365.asp

Oh I had not seen the latest figures of June, thanks.

Do we roughly know how many people are currently training to enter into the Reserves? It would be interesting to ask the Minister how many are currently in the reserve when you include those who are in the latest intakes alongside those in the later stages of training.

thekopend · 19-06-2012 7:24pm

bluetop wrote: »

Cant see that been true can you, as reserves have already on the job experience, they also have their uniforms, the panel dont have any of that, plus they would have to be in the collage for about 2 yrs, so all that compared to where the reserves are now would never add up to a saving.

on the job experience has nothing to do with saving money. i think i heard here before that the kit is less than 1000 euro per head. reserves training is only 2 weeks and 4 days, plus another 40 hours in station, what makes you think that you are practically trained to be a garda. they are not going to change the whole training system for gardai to take reserves only just because they can cut 3 weeks off it and save money on uniforms, you might say you have experience which would lessen the need to be trained as much but thats way off. training given to reserves is minute and reserves aren't even taught certain subjects compare to gards who are thought them for months and not a half day slideshow.

every garda will have to be trained to the same standard, reserves are miles away from that standard. that would be like giving someone a leaving certificate for doing a test in 6th class. if it happened that it turned to all reserve recruitment ye would go through the same training that is there now bar a few day couses no matter how vast ye think yer experience is, which will lead to zero savings, and ffs uniforms are replace every few years will ye get over it, ye have a uniform wow. who know what will happen but im sick of hearing how much of a saving the reserves are going to be when they might save a few pound at most. recruiting all reserves is going to cut out alot of people who deal with the public and the gardai dont want that, it was never mentioned that all reserve will happen by authorities it is just wat ye want.

Tyron Jara · 19-06-2012 7:39pm

thekopend wrote: »

on the job experience has nothing to do with saving money. i think i heard here before that the kit is less than 1000 euro per head. reserves training is only 2 weeks and 4 days, plus another 40 hours in station, what makes you think that you are practically trained to be a garda. they are not going to change the whole training system for gardai to take reserves only just because they can cut 3 weeks off it and save money on uniforms, you might say you have experience which would lessen the need to be trained as much but thats way off. training given to reserves is minute and reserves aren't even taught certain subjects compare to gards who are thought them for months and not a half day slideshow.

every garda will have to be trained to the same standard, reserves are miles away from that standard. that would be like giving someone a leaving certificate for doing a test in 6th class. if it happened that it turned to all reserve recruitment ye would go through the same training that is there now bar a few day couses no matter how vast ye think yer experience is, which will lead to zero savings, and ffs uniforms are replace every few years will ye get over it, ye have a uniform wow. who know what will happen but im sick of hearing how much of a saving the reserves are going to be when they might save a few pound at most. recruiting all reserves is going to cut out alot of people who deal with the public and the gardai dont want that, it was never mentioned that all reserve will happen by authorities it is just wat ye want.

Its not just about saving. Many reserves are young and only in it to eventually become full time!!! Many guards are giving time mentoring reserves wanting to become full time. Management is going to recognize this and whether you like it or not reserves may be the way forward. It l separate those who want to be guards for the job from those who are in it for the uniform. To those of you who say they dont have time to be reserves I respect that however it may come around that those who want full time more than anything will make the time to be reserves and this will be looked at by management. Me personally I give up work/money to give ten hours a week if I can and sometimes 20 if I can fit it in. Thats how bad I want to be a member of AGS in the future and Im hoping it will make some impact when I apply. Ive heard talk about making the reserve a requirement but again its just rumor.

Most people are reserves for the experience to get into full time and its a hard wait. The people on the panel know how painful this wait is and some even more and thay deserve to be recruited and will be as they are still here after 3 years!!! Oh and FYI the whole training system has been changed. fact!

2wsxcde3 · 19-06-2012 8:24pm

Guys its not necessarily an "either or" situation but could be a "both and" situation. Of course it could also be a "neither this nor that" situation too. At the end of the day we're all in the same boat, not different boats opposing each other.

bluetop · 19-06-2012 9:40pm

thekopend wrote: »

on the job experience has nothing to do with saving money. i think i heard here before that the kit is less than 1000 euro per head. reserves training is only 2 weeks and 4 days, plus another 40 hours in station, what makes you think that you are practically trained to be a garda. they are not going to change the whole training system for gardai to take reserves only just because they can cut 3 weeks off it and save money on uniforms, you might say you have experience which would lessen the need to be trained as much but thats way off. training given to reserves is minute and reserves aren't even taught certain subjects compare to gards who are thought them for months and not a half day slideshow.

every garda will have to be trained to the same standard, reserves are miles away from that standard. that would be like giving someone a leaving certificate for doing a test in 6th class. if it happened that it turned to all reserve recruitment ye would go through the same training that is there now bar a few day couses no matter how vast ye think yer experience is, which will lead to zero savings, and ffs uniforms are replace every few years will ye get over it, ye have a uniform wow. who know what will happen but im sick of hearing how much of a saving the reserves are going to be when they might save a few pound at most. recruiting all reserves is going to cut out alot of people who deal with the public and the gardai dont want that, it was never mentioned that all reserve will happen by authorities it is just wat ye want.

On the job experience is the best experience anybody can get, you cant get that at a lecture or sitting in a class room all day, you wont see first hand what happens on a night on the beat from a desk, dont kid yourself, anyone will tell you on the job is the best training you can get.

Can you tell me to date the saving's made by reserves turning up for service, it has now gone from 8hrs to 10hrs a tour of duty, work that out times 921 attested members just doing one night, not to mention the reserves that do maybe 50/60 hrs a month, the savings is huge, plus the savings made during events, ie Slane, the park next month, the aviva, 02, and lots of other venue's thru out the country

So dont kid yourself that the reserves are not paying for themselves 3 fold, the commissioner can see it and others.

thekopend · 19-06-2012 11:41pm

i know the work reserves do saves money but i was saying that recruiting reserves directly as opposed to mixed doesn't exactly save a bomb. i know on the job experience is half the battle but you can do the job without having the knowledge behind it, all the law that has to be learned on top of what reserves know. also social science, theory of policing, communications different language fitness training. lets face it reserves are thought the basics to get a reserve up to the standard of knowledge that a newly trained guard would have, in all these subjects would still take the bones of two years. ya tyron i know the training program has been changed but not for recruiting reserve only (fact) .

Delancey · 20-06-2012 12:28am

Purely as an aside - at least 1 past Garda Commissioner had joined the Gardai via the Wartime Reserve (ATS ).

2wsxcde3 · 20-06-2012 10:46am

Personally i don't think they will recruit from the reserves. That's just opening a whole can of worms. You have people in the reserves aged 34,35,36 etc and they'll be arguing they should be allowed in to become full time members even though they are over age cos they gave service in the reserves and all this.
They'll probably rescreen those on the panel and try and weed them down to 100 or so and take them in first and then launch a recruitment drive proper albeit with small numbers.

Tyron Jara · 20-06-2012 12:44pm

2wsxcde3 wrote: »

Personally i don't think they will recruit from the reserves. That's just opening a whole can of worms. You have people in the reserves aged 34,35,36 etc and they'll be arguing they should be allowed in to become full time members even though they are over age cos they gave service in the reserves and all this.
They'll probably rescreen those on the panel and try and weed them down to 100 or so and take them in first and then launch a recruitment drive proper albeit with small numbers.

Well know because the recruiting requirements will still stand. This notion about directly promoting reserves though im not sure about that. How many is on the panel?

--Ryaner-- · 20-06-2012 12:58pm

I don't know if I'm reading to much into this but as all the rumours about when Recrutment opens up again that being a reserve will look good and that you need ECDL, Qulified in swimming, and occupational first aid,

Anyways I myself am a reserve and they offered my phase a free occupational first aid course in Templemore but it was canceled due to cuts,
But since Friday gone its back open again as I was contacted by phone and e-mail.

My point is its gonna be a requirement for full time (maybe) and there giving a fetac level 5 occupational first aid course free to reserves and rolling it out all accross reserves interested.

Sierra Oscar · 20-06-2012 2:06pm

--Ryaner-- wrote: »

My point is its gonna be a requirement for full time (maybe) and there giving a fetac level 5 occupational first aid course free to reserves and rolling it out all accross reserves interested.

If you are on the frontline you really should have basic first aid knowledge in anycase, so I am not surprised to hear that they are offering OFA to Reserves. I would imagine that the priority is to ensure that you can respond to basic medical emergencies if you come across them on duty, and not solely preparing you for a recruitment drive.

In fact I would have thought OFA already was a basic element of Reserve training, surprised to hear that it is not.

--Ryaner-- · 20-06-2012 2:17pm

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

--Ryaner-- wrote: »

My point is its gonna be a requirement for full time (maybe) and there giving a fetac level 5 occupational first aid course free to reserves and rolling it out all accross reserves interested.

If you are on the frontline you really should have basic first aid knowledge in anycase, so I am not surprised to hear that they are offering OFA to Reserves. I would imagine that the priority is to ensure that you can respond to basic medical emergencies if you come across them on duty, and not solely preparing you for a recruitment drive.

In fact I would have thought OFA already was a basic element of Reserve training, surprised to hear that it is not.

I know it's not part of the basic training witch I thought myself should be its just a add on if your interested at the moment

Sierra Oscar · 20-06-2012 2:29pm

--Ryaner-- wrote: »

I know it's not part of the basic training witch I thought myself should be its just a add on if your interested at the moment

I would definitely go for it if I were you, great qualification to have and you would be paying for it otherwise!

--Ryaner-- · 20-06-2012 2:36pm

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

--Ryaner-- wrote: »

I know it's not part of the basic training witch I thought myself should be its just a add on if your interested at the moment

I would definitely go for it if I were you, great qualification to have and you would be paying for it otherwise!

It's something like €450 to do normally, we got 5 dates to start between now and November and it's 3 days and people that were on the list that got cancelled have first preference was ment to start last November so hopefully it's the start of them recovering from cuts

--Ryaner-- · 21-06-2012 3:08pm

Bit of good news in a way I suppose
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2012/0621/1224318356685.html

2wsxcde3 · 21-06-2012 4:08pm

--Ryaner-- wrote: »

Bit of good news in a way I suppose
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2012/0621/1224318356685.html

Good find. The last paragraph seems to suggest that its on alan shatters mind that recruitment will not be taking place for a long time, and when it does, at least some members of the reserves would either be offered or encouraged to join the full time.

KEBABTRAY · 21-06-2012 5:38pm

This thread was supposed to be for those on the panel . To share rumours about when recruitment might begin. How it turned into a reserves vs panel thread i dont know.

Anyway. It occured to me whilst reading the irish times article about giving the reserves more powers that the government have hit on an ingenious idea. Getting people to work for the state for free. Whats next reserve teachers? Reserve nurses?

They want the reserves to number !0% of the full time force. Why not make it 20%. That way there will be no need for recruitment till 2020.

Having reserve guards just delays the need for full time guards.
Those of you who joined the reserves (including those waiting on the panel) believing it would fast track you to a career in the AGS. you are contributing to the delay in Full time recruitment.

If you joined the reserves for the above reason . My question to you is this.... WHY WOULD THEY PAY YOU FOR SOMETHING YOU ALREADY PROVIDE FOR FREE?

--Ryaner-- · 21-06-2012 5:53pm

KEBABTRAY wrote: »

This thread was supposed to be for those on the panel . To share rumours about when recruitment might begin. How it turned into a reserves vs panel thread i dont know.

Anyway. It occured to me whilst reading the irish times article about giving the reserves more powers that the government have hit on an ingenious idea. Getting people to work for the state for free. Whats next reserve teachers? Reserve nurses?

They want the reserves to number !0% of the full time force. Why not make it 20%. That way there will be no need for recruitment till 2020.

Having reserve guards just delays the need for full time guards.
Those of you who joined the reserves (including those waiting on the panel) believing it would fast track you to a career in the AGS. you are contributing to the delay in Full time recruitment.

If you joined the reserves for the above reason . My question to you is this.... WHY WOULD THEY PAY YOU FOR SOMETHING YOU ALREADY PROVIDE FOR FREE?

So basically your saying we should all boycott the reserve?
Your comments are pritty Irrelavent every country has some kind of reserve force to back up there full time forces and of course Ireland is gonna jump on thr bandwagon to save money,

Unfortunately in the case of Recrutment beggars can't be choosers and for alot of people the reserve is the only answer no matter what it can't be a bad move to people wanting full time (some day)

The Panel

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