The future of Ireland

tolosenc · 09-10-2011 10:14pm

Esroh wrote: »

Mayo County Board made it know they were willing to discuss the use of McHale park (they need the money) but were never approched . I know Galway is considered the Home of Connacht Rugby but Castlebar is only 1 hour away.

Realistically, the absolute max attendance would have been about 15 thousand. That'd half fill Pearse, but McHale is about 50k capacity. Atmosphere would be non-existant.

With temp seating, would I be off the mark to suggest that the Sportsgrounds could have 10,000 there?

JRant · 09-10-2011 10:33pm

Picking younger players and bedding them in is very important, however the real issue should be a change of Ethos from the IRFU. They should be moving Irish rugby forward because we seem very stale at the moment. These new rule interpretations are here to stay and we need a management team that can deliver a system to win on a consistent basis.

jacothelad · 09-10-2011 10:34pm

Fireball07 wrote: »

Didn't know that but he's over 30 anyway.

Sandford being younger and a second row could possibly make it if he's good enough.

I've never seen him play so I don't know whether he's better/has more potential than players like Nagle, Tuohy, Foley, Sykes, even Donnacha Ryan and Devin Toner.

Sandford is o.k. but at Ulster he was alleged to have a rather decent opinuion of himself not entirely shared by the staff.

irishbucsfan wrote: »

If Hagan could scrum to the same level as Ross he'd be a far better player. He contributes a lot more around the park.

I keep watching him to see how good he is because lots of posters illuminate these and other threads with his 'ability. Sadly, in every match I see him play in he must be sick / under the weather because he usually gets a bit of a roasting in the scrum.

I think Nagle and Foley both have a higher ceiling than Toner, but I do believe Toner is more than capable of becoming an international. If he continues his current form he'll be hard to ignore. Tuohy's development has stalled, he's not up to the standard at the moment and he doesn't seem to be getting any closer. If he continues like last season and guys like Tim Barker and now Lewis Stevenson are in the squad ahead of him then I really don't think he'll be playing for Ireland any time soon.

Sorry but that is totally incorrect. Tuohy has been immense all season and last year he was injured. When fit he was the starter alongside Muller. Barker has never been nor will he ever be selected ahead of Tuohy apart from when Tuohy is being rested. barker is n.f.g. Stevenson has done a reasonable job. he's big, he's mean and he might get better.

I think we can do far better than Keatley. Hopefully someone else can put their hand up. One of the Ulster lads, or else Madigan could develop himself into a more rounded player.

I really hope Spence continues to develop beside Marshall, but they're not there yet.

There is no reason why Spence shouldn't get even better. I'd be perfectly happy to see him play for Ireland now. he has the sort of pace you can't buy and the physicality of a brute as well as some great touches.

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I've only seen Ulster once this season, so I missed that.

But last season he ran so hot and cold and was behind Barker for periods. When Muller comes back it will be interesting to see if he properly beats out Barker/Stevenson this time.

See above comments.

Fireball07 wrote: »

I never said he can scrummage to the same level as him at the moment but even at this stage he's a better option than Court and Buckley.

I doubt it from what I've seen when he has played against Court. A bag of soggy chips would be better than Buckley so we need a better comparison. Let's face it if we have to rely on the likes of Court and Hagan we are screwed.

Well all players need gametime to improve while developing, so I suppose if Toner gets more gametime and continues to improve, he's ahead. I haven't seen that much of either of them, but I've always been more impressed with Tuohy.

I think Keatley has potential to be a very good player. He's not close to international standard yet but I think he could. Hopefully he'll learn from ROG. But Jackson/McKinney will be options further down the line or Madigan either. But I think Keatley will grow into a better player at Munster.

Still, I think Spence has the potential to be a lot better than Cave and would nearly prefer him to be included in squads at this stage.

They are totally different types of players. You wouildn't select them for the same reasons probably. Spence is a 12 who can equally play 13 and Cave is a great, skilful, subtle 13. If Spence had Cave's skill or Cave had Spence's blistering speed and power we wouldn't need to worry about BOD retiring. But they don't. Both are top notch defenders.

But I do think it might be better if players like Leamy, Wallace, Murphy were displaced for younger players of similar talent.

I think if it's done gently, it could be good. Throwing them all into 6N games at once won't work (or it's very unlikely to) but 1 or 2 to start, maybe with another 2 or 3 on the bench. But experienced heads on the bench can be vital too. But it's the coach's job to get that balance right. But developing players for the future is very important- I'm sure there are lots of players that could have succeeded at international level if given the chance when they were younger, but missed out.

Yes.

09-10-2011 10:38pm

I really like Cave tbh. He has a long way to go, but if he can stay uninjured, he'll get there. An intelligent 13 who picks the right battles.

@jacothelad, are you certain that Spence is a 12? Has he learnt to make the simple passes enough yet? It was one of my biggest problems with him as an underage player that he took too much on himself, and didn't look outside him enough. I felt that's why he shone so much at 13, because the extra few metres he had combined with his pace opened up serious holes for him to exploit, yet when he was playing 12 with the pressure on, he seemed to be slow to move the ball far too often.

I'll admit I haven't seen enough of Ulster's games this season to say that he has or hasn't developed this yet, but you are our resident Ulster and underage expert here, so I'm happy to trust you on this!

irishbucsfan · 09-10-2011 10:40pm

If jaco says Tuohy has been immense all season then I'm satisfied with that. Glad he's back to his best. If he is playing as well as he was before the injury then he has to be in the Ireland squad ASAP.

jacothelad · 09-10-2011 10:48pm

Deleted User wrote: »

I really like Cave tbh. He has a long way to go, but if he can stay uninjured, he'll get there. An intelligent 13 who picks the right battles.

@jacothelad, are you certain that Spence is a 12? Has he learnt to make the simple passes enough yet? It was one of my biggest problems with him as an underage player that he took too much on himself, and didn't look outside him enough. I felt that's why he shone so much at 13, because the extra few metres he had combined with his pace opened up serious holes for him to exploit, yet when he was playing 12 with the pressure on, he seemed to be slow to move the ball far too often.

I'll admit I haven't seen enough of Ulster's games this season to say that he has or hasn't developed this yet, but you are our resident Ulster and underage expert here, so I'm happy to trust you on this!

He seems to have added some really deft handling skills to his game. Some really lovely disguised offloads and other passing variety. I hope it sticks. Like most Ulster fans we have little faith in our coaching team to do - well, - anything really.

irishbucsfan wrote: »

If jaco says Tuohy has been immense all season then I'm satisfied with that. Glad he's back to his best. If he is playing as well as he was before the injury then he has to be in the Ireland squad ASAP.

He certainly has been our top player alongside Cave, Gilroy and Spence. The rest are sinking slowly into the mire sadly. There seems to be a real lack of direction over the last few weeks. As you know we have a useless PORG at 9 who ruins everything he touches.

totallegend · 09-10-2011 10:56pm

+1 on Cave, any time I've seen him he's been excellent, big strong unit too.

Cpt_Blackbeard · 10-10-2011 1:24am

What is everyone else's consensus on the team that we should have starting and finishing the 6N? I think we need to have a gradual changing of the guard, with the established players using this 6N to pass their knowledge and experience on to the players who will replace them. The 6N fixture list tends to lend its hand to this as, it gets easier as it progresses (the France game aside).

With all that considered, I think our teams should look something like this for the 6N:

LH: Cian Healy is quite obviously the incumbent for years to come but, we need to produce a backup option. Horan is no longer an option and Court will be involved due to his ambiproperous nature but, after that the cupboard is looking pretty dry. The only other options that come to mind are Wikinson (not Irish but, we need backup), Fitzpatrick and Hurley. Hurley would be my favourite due to my familiarity with him but, he is constantly injured. There was a time when both he and Healy were viewed in the same regard. Any input on the other 2?

Hooker: Best has been brilliant this season and has years left on the clock; he should be vying with POC for the captaincy going for. But, our backup options need gametime at this level. A lot will depend on Cronin's improvement at Leinster and Sherry's place in the Munster squad but, both will need to get games under their belt.

TH: Ross has made the #3 jersey his own over the course of the year but, he offers little outside of the scrum and we need a viable backup. Buckley isn't an option and Hagan is probably next in line; Cronin's game will suffer with Botha's move to Munster but, hopefully Archer will improve hugely. My main issue with Hagan is that he is made in the image of Hayes and Buckley. Feek may work wonders with him but, you have to worry about his height affecting his scrummaging at test level. Assuming Feek works his magic, I would like to see him getting gametime from the bench and a start against Scotland. A start against Italy in our last game isn't out of the question, and it would be a true test. If Hagan doesn't prove up to standard scrummaging wise, I hope we don't stick with him like we have with Buckley. As I've Feek mentioned, I'd like him to work full-time with the IRFU and travel the country giving technical workshops to coaches and players; Leinster's short-term loss would be Ireland's long-term gain.

Lock: While I believe that DOC will still be a good international player for a few years to come, Ryan and Tuohy could well prove to be better options. Ryan has impressed me hugely in the last 8-10 months and should start the 6N at 4, beside POC. He has been very good in his WC cameos and looks like becoming a very good athletic lock, if he gets a run of games under his belt. Hopefully Tuohy will continue to impress and push Ryan for inclusion by the end of the 6N. It might be too soon for Nagle but, he looks like POC's natural successor imo. A start/gametime against Scotland/Italy wouldn't be out of the equation but, I see him getting his shot in the AIs beside whoever of Tuohy/Ryan establishes themselves. Toner will never be good enough, so it would be a waste of time giving him a shot ahead of any of the other locks.

Backrow: This should be an interesting one. SOB is the only player who is guaranteed their jersey here - Ferris' knee troubles keep him out of automatic selection. I think that we should start the 6N with the same backrow (fitness/form permitting) that played Wales. We will be up against the same unit again (Wales) and we need to see if a natural 7 is needed if we are to beat Wales/NZ/SA/Aus and their 7s. If we are comprehensively beaten here again, we will know that SOB isn't the answer at 7. I don't think Ryan/POM are the answer but, hopefully one of them impresses. Wallace, also, cannnot be forgotten; he could still be involved at the next WC if he continues to display superhuman levels of fitness and strength (he hasn't ruled it out anyway). Ferris needs to be wrapped in cotton-wool and only used in the big big games; Ruddock and POM look like the contenders to share the jersey with Ferris by the end of the 6N and going forward. Assuming that Heaslip's carrying has gone the way of Leamy's - the last time I remember him carrying off a scrum, he was afraid to take the ball into contact and gave it to TOL. We all know what happened next - SOB to earn the 8 jersey by the end of the 6N. 8 could well be SOB's best position and it would allow him the freedom to carry all he likes.

Scrumhalf: This should be one of the easiest positions to pick, despite the distane shown for Murray here and on LFs. Murray is now considered #1 scrumhalf and should hold on to the jersey for the near future. Reddan's urgency from the bench should be great to have in the last 20/30 minutes of a game. The only curve-ball I see coming this year is a resurgence to form for TOL, which seems unlikely due to his injury troubles and Murray's form. I don't see Marshall getting the chance to impress and its much too soon for Leinster's McGrath.

Outhalf: Sexton with Keatley pushing him for inclusion looks like the path set in stone but, I would like to see ROG to start the 6N at 10 :eek: . He still has so much to offer Irish Rugby, Sexton especially. Sexton could learn loads by playing at 12 outside him for the Wales and England games or, possibly the England and France games due to the Welsh having figured ROG out. After that Sexton will slot in at 10 and ROG will no longer feature, with Keatley taking his place on the bench. While I would have no issue with Sexton taking outright place at 10, I think we should make use of ROG's experience and game management when we can. I would have Sexton taking the kicks, irregardless of ROG being on the field. Sexton proving himself at 12 would also be a useful piece of versatility, if it is needed in the future.

Wings: The wings will be difficult to manage due to the sheer amount of young talent we have coming through. A lot will depend on how Kidney views Earls. I actually do rate him as a potential centre but, his sheer brilliance when it comes to finishing means that moving him from the wing might be a risk. We don't really need to blood new wingers due to the incumbent's age profiles but, Carr - at least - should get a shot.

Centre: This is where we will have a huge changing of the guard. If Sexton starts the 6N at 12, I would have BOD at 13. Then around the 50 minute mark, I would bring Earls/Trimble from the bench for ROG with everyone slotting in one position and Earls going to 13 outside BOD - I know Earls at 13 isn't a popular option but, he is viewed as BOD's successor and the management don't see any of the other squad members as a better potential centre. Provided all goes well, I would start Sexton (/Keatley if Sexton needs a rest) at 10 and Earls at 13 for the Scotland and Italy matches.

Now the issue comes to 12. D'Arcy is no longer an option going forward and there aren't many obvious options sticking their hands up. We need a big bruiser for international level but, other than the ageing Downey there are no obvious options. I think that McFadden will be too far down the pecking order when he gets back to Leinster so, my two picks would be Fitzgerald or Spence; BOD could do a job going forward but I'll be surprised if his body holds up as far as the Lions' tour. I've always felt that Fitzgerald was going to end up in the centre and he will hopefully end up a great 12. He isn't the biggest guy but, he is solid in defense. My only problem with him at centre would revolve around his ability to crash it up at international level. Spence looks like he could be a better option at doing this and looks a very physical player. A lot will depend on our future back's coach.

Fullback: Like wing, I don't expect a huge personnel change. It will depend on Kearney's ability to earn/the IRFU ensuring he gets the 15 jersey from Nacewa and on Jones' continuing injury troubles. Assuming Schmidt brings Kearney's kicking up to standard, its a matter of Jones' defense versus Kearney's ability in the air. Murphy's time togging out for Ireland is over. We'll probably adopt a horses-for-courses approach. I'd love if we could find a playmaker ala. Nacewa/Warwick at 15 though.

Hopefully the majority of that made some sense (comprehension-wise) and will draw more feedback than the usual dismissive remarks..

Chucky the tree · 10-10-2011 1:33am

What has ROG done to earn a starting place at 10? If Ireland were playing next week Outhalf: ROG most definitly wouldn't be starting. His experience and game maangement produced absolutely nothing against Wales. I think ROG is done as a starter at international level against decent opposition. Any good team will simply rinse and repeat exactly what Wales did.

Scrumhalf: Murray has done nothing which should make him our #1 scrumhalf. He was very poor against Wales and shouldn't have been picked in the first place.

Centre: Having a centre who can't/won't pass is a terrible idea. Keep Earls on the wing(sorry, that should be bench actually).

Podge_irl · 10-10-2011 1:36am

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

Outhalf: Sexton with Keatley pushing him for inclusion looks like the path set in stone but, I would like to see ROG to start the 6N at 10 :eek: . He still has so much to offer Irish Rugby, Sexton especially. Sexton could learn loads by playing at 12 outside him for the Wales and England games or, possibly the England and France games due to the Welsh having figured ROG out. After that Sexton will slot in at 10 and ROG will no longer feature, with Keatley taking his place on the bench. While I would have no issue with Sexton taking outright place at 10, I think we should make use of ROG's experience and game management when we can. I would have Sexton taking the kicks, irregardless of ROG being on the field. Sexton proving himself at 12 would also be a useful piece of versatility, if it is needed in the future.

What game management???

All Sexton can learn from ROG based on the Wales game is how to tackle poorly, how to carry ball atrociously into contact and how to pass completely ineffectively along the backline without committing defenders. He genuinely plays well coming off the bench to close out games but he should never, ever start for Ireland again.

CIARAN_BOYLE · 10-10-2011 1:45am

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

LH: Cian Healy is quite obviously the incumbent for years to come but, we need to produce a backup option. Horan is no longer an option and Court will be involved due to his ambiproperous nature but, after that the cupboard is looking pretty dry. The only other options that come to mind are Wikinson (not Irish but, we need backup), Fitzpatrick and Hurley. Hurley would be my favourite due to my familiarity with him but, he is constantly injured. There was a time when both he and Healy were viewed in the same regard. Any input on the other 2?

Fitzpatrick is a TH. Not a LH. Has played a couple of times at LH this season and has been terrible. Spent most of last season as a second choice TH till he got injured and Cronin got ahead of him. I'd rate Wilkinson ahead of Hurley and young Paddy McAlister (currently injured but Ulsters 2nd choice) ahead of both

Quint2010 · 10-10-2011 1:52am

ROG should start the 6N at 10? No way. He was awful yesterday and manipulated Kidney to force him to start him against the welsh. The rest of your the post is fairly balanced but as usual you discredit yourself by making the proposterous assertion that an almost 40 year old David Wallace could still be pushing for a starting place in 2015.

Cpt_Blackbeard · 10-10-2011 1:53am

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

Fitzpatrick is a TH. Not a LH. Has played a couple of times at LH this season and has been terrible. Spent most of last season as a second choice TH till he got injured and Cronin got ahead of him. I'd rate Wilkinson ahead of Hurley and young Paddy McAlister (currently injured but Ulsters 2nd choice) ahead of both

It was McAlister I was thinking of so. I couldn't remember the name so I just had a look at Ulster's recent starting team and saw Fitzpatrick's name. I thought he was a TH alright though.

Hurley will probably never make it due to his injury troubles but, I still hope he can reach the level he looked like reaching a few years ago.

Quint2010 · 10-10-2011 1:55am

Podge_irl wrote: »

What game management???

All Sexton can learn from ROG based on the Wales game is how to tackle poorly, how to carry ball atrociously into contact and how to pass completely ineffectively along the backline without committing defenders. He genuinely plays well coming off the bench to close out games but he should never, ever start for Ireland again.

Dont forget he also gave a masterclass in kicking the ball dead and giving the opposition a scrum back..

irishbucsfan · 10-10-2011 1:55am

I'd love to see the A team ("Wolfhounds") resurrected. The last time they played we had guys like Healy, Cronin, Sexton, McFadden, Carr and Jones featuring and I'd wager that the team would be even better if they played now. It would be a great bridge between RDP12 level and international level for those guys who are possibly good enough but behind incumbant internationals at H Cup level. IE Ruddock, Ryan, O'Mahoney, Madigan, Nagle, Toner, Hagan, McAllister, Sherry, Marshall, Gilroy etc.

Cpt_Blackbeard · 10-10-2011 2:15am

Podge_irl wrote: »

What game management???

All Sexton can learn from ROG based on the Wales game is how to tackle poorly, how to carry ball atrociously into contact and how to pass completely ineffectively along the backline without committing defenders. He genuinely plays well coming off the bench to close out games but he should never, ever start for Ireland again.

It would be nonsensical to judge ROG solely on his performance against Wales come February. If we are basing things off that one performance, there would be a few players who shouldn't start for Ireland again. Maybe it would be a smarter idea to start Sexton and have him go to 12 when ROG is introduced. I think it would be hugely beneficial for Sexton to get some gametime at 12 outside ROG, before ROG retires though. The worst that would happen is that he learns nothing but, there is always a hope that it will benefit him. Playing at 12 may also allow him to better appreciate where any future 12 outside him would want the ball or, where the gaps are likely to appear for the 12 outside him to exploit.

TBH, it didn't even cross my mind to start Sexton and move him to 12 to facilitate ROG

.. Although I doubt that was what you were getting at.

Cpt_Blackbeard · 10-10-2011 2:23am

Quint2010 wrote: »

ROG should start the 6N at 10? No way. He was awful yesterday and manipulated Kidney to force him to start him against the welsh. The rest of your the post is fairly balanced but as usual you discredit yourself by making the proposterous assertion that an almost 40 year old David Wallace could still be pushing for a starting place in 2015.

The manipulating Kidney part is just BS and another line to throw in the why-isn't-playing/performing bag of excuses.

Do I honestly think that Wallace will still be playing come the next WC? No. Do I think that he is one of the only professional rugby players with a high enough level of strength/fitness to be playing test rugby at 39? Yes.

He said himself that people laugh at him when he says that he hasn't ruled out still being around but, he said that there is no great reason why its an impossibility. If any of the stories coming out of the Irish camp were to be believed, he was the fittest/strongest guy there. Thats no mean feat for a 35 year old in a group that contained Ferris/SOB/Leamy/POC/Healy.

Podge_irl · 10-10-2011 2:37am

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

It would be nonsensical to judge ROG solely on his performance against Wales

I'm not. I'm really, really not.

Sexton has to start in the 6N, and start all the games. ROG is excellent coming off the bench but that should be it with regards his involvement with Ireland from here on in. The game has just passed him by and teams can no longer afford to carry an outhalf so utterly useless in defence or contact. It is a serious black mark on Kidney that he didn't see this coming when so many of us did.

We can't afford to have a scrum half who takes so hideously long to come to the ruck either. Our backrow are most effective running off the scrum half's shoulder but that never happened against Wales because we never had real go forward ball. Partly because Murray was so slow to the ruck and partly because ROG was too far back in the pocket and not making any head way.I really, really think that Murray is the future Irish scrum half but it was beyond ridiculous to start him in this game.

Our locks are seriously lacking in the carrying department. And POC appears in midfield far, far too often. Someone needs to take him aside and tell him he's not very good at it and to stop. I like the look of Touhy, if he's got his injuries behind him and continues his current form he should get a serious look in in the 6N.

Gaffney is gone, which can only be a good thing. Out backs have lacked any incision for a couple seasons now and the buck has to stop with him. Hopefully we get a decent backs coach in. I am painfully aware of the fact that no one is signed yet and I hope to jesus we do actually sign someone. However, something HAS to be done with our midfield. D'Arcy/BOD simply lack any real size or pace and just aren't going to cut it at this level anymore. Not really sure what the solution is here, as there is no one really shouting out for selection.

tolosenc · 10-10-2011 3:40am

40-man provisional squad I'd have before the 6N, at this point:

LH: Healy, McGrath, Wilkinson
HK: Best, Cronin, Sherry(no Struass yet

)
TH: Hagan, Ross, Archer
SR: POC, Toner, Tuohy, McLaughlin, Nagle, Ryan
BR: O'Brien, Heaslip, Ruddock, Ferris, Dom Ryan, Jennings, Faloon
SH: Reddan, Boss, Marshall
FH: Sexton, Madigan, Humphreys
12: Fitzgerald, McFadden, Wallace
13: BOD, Spence
WG: Bowe, Trimble, Gilroy, Dave Kearney, Conway
FB: Rob Kearney, Morris

*Bold: Starters.
*Italic: Bench.
*Red: Outside of a tournament 30.

Kayless · 10-10-2011 4:34am

davegrohl48 wrote: »

I would take even someone built like Rougerie who was great going forward and in defence yesterday for France. Rougerie is not that kinda size but he is amazinly powerful.
France - Rougerie, England Tuilagi, Wales - Roberts, New Zealand - Nonu/SBW.
To compete we need someone at 12/13 who can break the gainline on every carry. Even a smaller guy like Medard from France we don't have a player like that. Not a big guy but very fast and powerful.

We need another SOB

10-10-2011 7:13am

tolosenc wrote: »

40-man provisional squad I'd have before the 6N, at this point:

LH: Healy, McGrath, Wilkinson
HK: Best, Cronin, Sherry(no Struass yet )
TH: Hagan, Ross, Archer
SR: POC, Toner, Tuohy, McLaughlin, Nagle, Ryan
BR: O'Brien, Heaslip, Ruddock, Ferris, Dom Ryan, Jennings, Faloon
SH: Reddan, Boss, Marshall
FH: Sexton, Madigan, Humphreys
12: Fitzgerald, McFadden, Wallace
13: BOD, Spence
WG: Bowe, Trimble, Gilroy, Dave Kearney, Conway
FB: Rob Kearney, Morris

*Bold: Starters.
*Italic: Bench.
*Red: Outside of a tournament 30.

ah jaysis, just jettison all the Munster lads?

What we need to do is organise a tour next summer than we can get lads like Spence, Gilroy, Nagle, etc playing on.

Send an U23 team with 3/4 wise heads to steer the ship to play against Romania, Georgia, Portugal etc. Akin to a Wolfhounds tour.

davegrohl48 · 10-10-2011 7:30am

When its a tight call in skill and ability we need to select based on athleticism We had several players in the squad/15 that you would wonder would another coach brought/picked We need to stop waiting so long to give players their debut Did Foley travel ahead of Heaslip in 07 ? To have ambitions of doing well we need to make pace a major selection criteria and aim for the training regime

BarackPyjama · 10-10-2011 7:38am

Suffice to say that this is Kidney's biggest test yet and will be the making or breaking of him as a coach. Is he going to be able to quickly spot and nurture talent and bring in the new wave? We'll know by the time the 6 Nations comes around. I don't care how we perform over the next couple of years. I want a coach that will start building a strong squad for England in 2015. Can Kidney do it?

GerM · 10-10-2011 7:50am

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I'd love to see the A team ("Wolfhounds") resurrected. The last time they played we had guys like Healy, Cronin, Sexton, McFadden, Carr and Jones featuring and I'd wager that the team would be even better if they played now. It would be a great bridge between RDP12 level and international level for those guys who are possibly good enough but behind incumbant internationals at H Cup level. IE Ruddock, Ryan, O'Mahoney, Madigan, Nagle, Toner, Hagan, McAllister, Sherry, Marshall, Gilroy etc.

It never went away. They had two games earlier this year. It was used mostly as an exercise to get senior players some game time though e.g. Buckley starting for them with Hagan benching two weeks in a row. Some youngsters got a run out which was good though. Kearney, Spence, EOM and Nagle got runs.

SuprSi · 10-10-2011 8:56am

BarackPyjama wrote: »

Suffice to say that this is Kidney's biggest test yet and will be the making or breaking of him as a coach. Is he going to be able to quickly spot and nurture talent and bring in the new wave? We'll know by the time the 6 Nations comes around. I don't care how we perform over the next couple of years. I want a coach that will start building a strong squad for England in 2015. Can Kidney do it?

My concern with this is that Ireland have predominantely put results ahead of anything else. We have nearly always played the senior squad with a view to winning the match first, rather than giving the younger guys a chance. In Kidney's mind (and perhaps that of the IRFU), he might feel that he has to continue focusing on results, ensuring the public is happy, to secure his job and perhaps another contract. Yes the upcoming 6 Nations will hopefully show some changes, but I can see the vast majority of the squad that lined up against Wales on Saturday lining up against Wales in February!

Ireland were beaten by an upcoming Welsh team. We haven't even fully seen what they're fully capable of yet. They will only get better. I think we need to bite the bullet and start blooding the younger players now, even if it means we lose a few extra games. Is Kidney the man to do this? Short term losses for longer term gains.

padraig.od · 10-10-2011 9:07am

tolosenc wrote: »

40-man provisional squad I'd have before the 6N, at this point:

LH: Healy, McGrath, Wilkinson
HK: Best, Cronin, Sherry(no Struass yet )
TH: Hagan, Ross, Archer
SR: POC, Toner, Tuohy, McLaughlin, Nagle, Ryan
BR: O'Brien, Heaslip, Ruddock, Ferris, Dom Ryan, Jennings, Faloon
SH: Reddan, Boss, Marshall
FH: Sexton, Madigan, Humphreys
12: Fitzgerald, McFadden, Wallace
13: BOD, Spence
WG: Bowe, Trimble, Gilroy, Dave Kearney, Conway
FB: Rob Kearney, Morris

*Bold: Starters.
*Italic: Bench.
*Red: Outside of a tournament 30.

You'd start well know second row Fr. Kev McLaughlin in the second row for the 6N?!

GerM · 10-10-2011 9:17am

tolosenc wrote: »

40-man provisional squad I'd have before the 6N, at this point:

LH: Healy, McGrath, Wilkinson
HK: Best, Cronin, Sherry(no Struass yet )
TH: Hagan, Ross, Archer
SR: POC, Toner, Tuohy, McLaughlin, Nagle, Ryan
BR: O'Brien, Heaslip, Ruddock, Ferris, Dom Ryan, Jennings, Faloon
SH: Reddan, Boss, Marshall
FH: Sexton, Madigan, Humphreys
12: Fitzgerald, McFadden, Wallace
13: BOD, Spence
WG: Bowe, Trimble, Gilroy, Dave Kearney, Conway
FB: Rob Kearney, Morris

*Bold: Starters.
*Italic: Bench.
*Red: Outside of a tournament 30.

That side would be hammered, tolosenc. We can't sacrifice an entire 6N for development, it's the bread and butter of the game in the country and the financial ramifications would be severe. Aside from that, a good number of those players aren't up to standard in your average HEC match, let alone an international test. Morris, McGrath, McLaughlin (as a lock) and Marshall have done nothing to suggest they're capable of playing 6N rugby. They struggle to get a run for their provinces in the ML. Humphreys turns 30 in the spring. We need to bring through new blood but it needs to be done gently with a couple of players at a time. I'd be happy to see Spence, Tuohy and Hagan getting a couple of starts in the 6N and go from there. We have players that are young enough in all other positions (aside from 12 probably) that are capable of playing internationals rugby for several years yet. Next summer's tour is where we should be blooding a few more players and then, come 2013, we should have an idea of whether we've found our new players.

chupacabra · 10-10-2011 9:31am

We just need to re-enter the Churchill cup again. Bowing out of that tournament the same year we won it was really stupid.

GerM · 10-10-2011 9:32am

The Churchill Cup is now defunct; 2011 was the last year it was ever to be played.

shuffol · 10-10-2011 9:34am

The immediate requirements as I see it.

- blood in new option at TH(Hagan)

- blood in new option to give competition to 2nd row, cullen too old and not good enough at international level

- blood in new option in the backrow, Ferris is injury prone, Heaslip is out of form at 8, Leamy shouldnt be near the squad unless he gets his place back for Munster, Jennings is questionable at this level.

- blood in new option at 10 to deal with ROGs impending retirement, cant have a situation where Sexton has no competition when this occurs.

- Replace D'arcy

- Blood in new option at 13. (NOT EARLS)

The team doesnt need radical changes but the squad will need a bit of freshening up, I think we need to be realistic about the next 6N, we've England and France away and our chances of winning it are slim, should we sacrifice results with a view to building a side capable of winning it in 2013.

The future of Ireland

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