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The future of Ireland

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    #122
    Chucky the tree
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,341 ✭✭✭✭Chucky the tree


    Why does it have to be in the next few months? The next world cup is 4 years away, are we that incapable of properly planning for it? If our aim is to have someone who is average and will simply be better then what we have then yea go with Heaslip, personnaly I'd like to think we are aiming higher then that and will try and develop a young world class 7 over the next 4 years.


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    #123
    MungBean
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,915 ✭✭✭MungBean


    Chucky the tree wrote: »
    Why does it have to be in the next few months? The next world cup is 4 years away, are we that incapable of properly planning for it? If our aim is to have someone who is average and will simply be better then what we have then yea go with Heaslip, personnaly I'd like to think we are aiming higher then that and will try and develop a young world class 7 over the next 4 years.

    Of course we can develop a young 7 but who? Do you leave the position empty in the mean time ? Do you play people out of position to fill the gap in the meantime ? Or do you use what you have and try to create a good 7 rather than wait and hope that a young guy comes through.

    Your under the impression that Heaslip would be an average 7 and dont want to see if he could be excellent and think that a world class excellent 7 will appear through the schools in the next four years.

    How many Pococks have the Aussies produced ? How many McCaws have NZ produced. How long have Wales been waiting for Warburton ? Naturally excellent world class 7's dont come along very often I think it would be prudent to work on adapting someone we have to the role while we wait and hope for one to appear.


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    #124
    Nermal
    Registered Users Posts: 2,629 ✭✭✭Nermal


    jacothelad wrote: »
    In the Ulster region for example, we have large numbers of really keen young players being withdrawn from the game by their parents on safety grounds as the current system forces 12 year olds to play against 14 year olds, 14 against 16 or even 17 depending on when their birthdate falls. Even the underage criteria and systems are different in ROI than NI. It's a bit of a mess and there is no significant momentum to clean it up.

    For some reason I have the notion that in NZ players are graded by weight at school, so if you're big for your age, you're in with larger guys. Stops late developers dropping the game and ensures the early ones must develop skills and not rely on size advantage. Can't remember where I heard that though so it might be nonsense...


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    #125
    MungBean
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,915 ✭✭✭MungBean


    GerM wrote: »
    Interestingly, the Lions played BOD at full back in the 2001 tour for a game. They learned from the game that BOD was not a full back at all.

    Point was (although not very clear) that if you went on his work rate and abilities he would look to slot in anywhere as a great player in reference to a point about his ball robbing skills being better than Heaslips. The fact that he didnt work well at 15 kinda makes my point. You need to grow into whatever position you play in. If Drcio had of grown into the 15 role he would have been an excellent FB because he's a naturally good player. But as good as he is, he would need time to grow into the role.


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    #126
    Hagz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,257 ✭✭✭Hagz


    It seems you think Heaslip will be a good 7 because he gets around 1 turn-over a game...

    I would never put Heaslip at 7. He just isn't a 7. Heaslip isn't the kind of guy who's always in the rucks, and top tackler, and he doesn't get that many turn-overs. Richardt Strauss get's a good few turn-overs for Leinster but I wouldn't put him at 7.

    Heaslip's positives are his control at the scrum, his line-out skill and his linking up with the backs. Heaslip's the kind of player who performs at the set-pieces and stands off for a few strong carries in attack.

    Our combination right now is as good as it gets for the moment. Ryan is a strong workaholic who looks to have potential, but he needs to improve his ground skills. We just have to wait and see if a 7 emerges, and if one doesn't, we'll just have to choose out best back-row combination. Which is what we've been doing.


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    #127
    MungBean
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,915 ✭✭✭MungBean


    Hagz wrote: »
    It seems you think Heaslip will be a good 7 because he gets around 1 turn-over a game...

    I would never put Heaslip at 7. He just isn't a 7. Heaslip isn't the kind of guy who's always in the rucks, and top tackler, and he doesn't get that many turn-overs. Richardt Strauss get's a good few turn-overs for Leinster but I wouldn't put him at 7.

    Heaslip's positives are his control at the scrum, his line-out skill and his linking up with the backs. Heaslip's the kind of player who performs at the set-pieces and stands off for a few strong carries in attack.

    Our combination right now is as good as it gets for the moment. Ryan is a strong workaholic who looks to have potential, but he needs to improve his ground skills. We just have to wait and see if a 7 emerges, and if one doesn't, we'll just have to choose out best back-row combination. Which is what we've been doing.

    No. I think he would be the better option than anyone we have currently to give the 7 position a crack and maybe grow into it.

    A 7 may very well emerge at some stage but I cant see anyone coming up that will dislodge Heaslip, Ferris or O'Brien from a starting 15 if they are not a Warburton in the making and I find it hard to believe we will get that lucky.

    Moving Heaslip to 7 is no different that moving SOB there and we did that going into a world cup. A little bit of experimenting in the next year with the other back rowers isnt much of a stretch really.


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    #128
    CIARAN_BOYLE
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 14,599 Mod ✭✭✭✭CIARAN_BOYLE


    Hagz wrote: »
    Our combination right now is as good as it gets for the moment. Ryan is a strong workaholic who looks to have potential, but he needs to improve his ground skills. We just have to wait and see if a 7 emerges, and if one doesn't, we'll just have to choose out best back-row combination. Which is what we've been doing.
    Ryan needs to get ahead of Jennings at Leinster before he worries about wearing an Ireland shirt


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    #129
    Hagz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,257 ✭✭✭Hagz


    MungBean wrote: »
    No. I think he would be the better option than anyone we have currently to give the 7 position a crack and maybe grow into it.

    A 7 may very well emerge at some stage but I cant see anyone coming up that will dislodge Heaslip, Ferris or O'Brien from a starting 15 if they are not a Warburton in the making and I find it hard to believe we will get that lucky.

    Moving Heaslip to 7 is no different that moving SOB there and we did that going into a world cup. A little bit of experimenting in the next year with the other back rowers isnt much of a stretch really.

    It is different than moving SOB there. Heaslip is not a flanker, he's a specialist No.8. Not only that, but SOB started out as a 7 and only shifted to 6 this past season. Therefore, SOB is a lot more comfortable playing 7 than Heaslip is. It's hard to explain, but Heaslip just doesn't suit openside. you put Heaslip at 7, and what you get is the same Heaslip with no influence in the scrum and half the carries, and maybe 1 or 2 extra turn-overs. I'd imagine that a Heaslip playing 7 would result in more penalties against us than for us. Heaslip is worth a random turn-over every once in a while, but he's also worth a few silly penalties at the breakdown. Leave him as is. He's struggling with form at 8 atm, the last thing he needs is to be moved around at this stage in his career.


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    #130
    MungBean
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,915 ✭✭✭MungBean


    Hagz wrote: »
    It is different than moving SOB there. Heaslip is not a flanker, he's a specialist No.8. Not only that, but SOB started out as a 7 and only shifted to 6 this past season. Therefore, SOB is a lot more comfortable playing 7 than Heaslip is. It's hard to explain, but Heaslip just doesn't suit openside. you put Heaslip at 7, and what you get is the same Heaslip with no influence in the scrum and half the carries, and maybe 1 or 2 extra turn-overs. I'd imagine that a Heaslip playing 7 would result in more penalties against us than for us. Heaslip is worth a random turn-over every once in a while, but he's also worth a few silly penalties at the breakdown. Leave him as is. He's struggling with form at 8 atm, the last thing he needs is to be moved around at this stage in his career.

    I'll bow to your superior knowledge but I'd still like to see it tried.


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    #131
    .ak
    Registered Users Posts: 30,308 Mod ✭✭✭✭.ak


    Strauss is an absolute BEAST at turning ball over. He's like a mini-Peacock the way he stands over the ball. And he's played a few games at flanker for Leinster (during yellow card incidents)... Feck it, get him good n' fast and there's our solution. ;)


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    #132
    ambid
    Registered Users Posts: 1,591 ✭✭✭ambid


    Who is the last classic 7 Ireland played? I guess it would be Keith Gleeson right? I can never figure out why Jennings has never been given a good run of games at test level. He was outstanding in the Heineken Cup last year.

    Ryan is excellent, but never looks like a groundhog to me. Falloon has struggled to claim a regular place in Ulster, and Munster's young backrowers don't seem to have a specialist classic 7. O'Connor doesn't seem on the management radar.

    If we're not producing them, the short term option is to try to poach them from the southern hemisphere and naturalise them.


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    #133
    Hagz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,257 ✭✭✭Hagz


    ambid wrote: »
    Who is the last classic 7 Ireland played? I guess it would be Keith Gleeson right? I can never figure out why Jennings has never been given a good run of games at test level. He was outstanding in the Heineken Cup last year.

    Jennings always seemed to be more of a spoiler than a stealer to me.


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    #134
    GerM
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,592 ✭✭✭GerM


    .ak wrote: »
    Strauss is an absolute BEAST at turning ball over. He's like a mini-Peacock the way he stands over the ball. And he's played a few games at flanker for Leinster (during yellow card incidents)... Feck it, get him good n' fast and there's our solution. ;)

    Strauss is a flanker. He was converted to a hooker when they reckoned he was too small to make it as a flanker in SA. He played as a flanker in the IRB Junior WC and has played there in Super Rugby and had a prolonged run there in the Currie Cup. That's why we're seeing him turn over more ball than anyone else in the country at the moment. He's a natural pilferer.


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    #135
    tolosenc
    Registered Users Posts: 6,889 ✭✭✭tolosenc


    Hagz wrote: »
    Jennings always seemed to be more of a spoiler than a stealer to me.

    A lot of the time, that's enough (slowing down opposition ball, etc. etc.)


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    #136
    Hagz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,257 ✭✭✭Hagz


    GerM wrote: »
    Strauss is a flanker. He was converted to a hooker when they reckoned he was too small to make it as a flanker in SA. He played as a flanker in the IRB Junior WC and has played there in Super Rugby and had a prolonged run there in the Currie Cup. That's why we're seeing him turn over more ball than anyone else in the country at the moment. He's a natural pilferer.

    They are using a similar tactic with young David Doyle. I think he was a flanker with UCD but they've made him into a hooker.


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    #137
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    Hagz wrote: »
    They are using a similar tactic with young David Doyle. I think he was a flanker with UCD but they've made him into a hooker.
    In fairness Strauss converted to hooker before he came into the Leinster setup. Strauss played there regularly for the Cheetahs and Leinster signed him as a hooker.

    I'd also like to return to the Heaslip at 7 thing. Heaslip showed in this competition that he would be capable of playing openside. The only tenable difference between 7 and 8 comes at scrum time, when the 7 generally has the most important defensive assignment on the team. Heaslip is certainly quick enough and confident enough in defense to cover any gap he's assigned to there, and confident enough in his ground game to effectively contribute there.

    In fact I'd say he'd definitely be more natural in the position than either Ferris or O'Brien. The only problem with the whole concept is positional familiarity and experience at the top level. And not even for Heaslip imo. If Heaslip was to move to 7, then that would mean O'Brien would need to be confident at 8. Seeing as O'Brien has not played 8 at Heineken Cup level I don't think it's something anyone in the Ireland setup would try. The only way for O'Brien to get that experience would be if the switch was made at Leinster meaning Leinster would be dropping Dippy/Jennings. I don't think Leinster want to make that move. I also think Heaslip enjoys playing the position and wouldn't be too happy moving either.

    But on paper, I completely disagree with the idea that Heaslip wouldn't make a top class 7. He skills fit the position perfectly.


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    #138
    gosplan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,828 ✭✭✭gosplan


    daithimacgroin wrote: »
    if we get boks and kiwis and the likes in on residency, southern hemisphere teams will never respect us.

    They poach the islanders without feeling too much guilt.


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    #139
    gosplan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,828 ✭✭✭gosplan


    Why is everyone fixated on creating a team for the next wc?

    However good we get, we are going to have four squads stronger than us (3 SH plus France) and a couple of comparable squads in Wales and England. It'll generally take a once every 20 years to get a draw that will leave us 2/3 one score matches from a final. It's silly to target these IMO.

    Ireland should just focus on winning as many six nations as they can and use the international series to bring through new players. Create a culture of success and actually lifting trophies.


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    #140
    tolosenc
    Registered Users Posts: 6,889 ✭✭✭tolosenc


    gosplan wrote: »
    Why is everyone fixated on creating a team for the next wc?

    Because the WC is the one tournament Ireland has never made a dent in.


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    #141
    chupacabra
    Registered Users Posts: 4,413 ✭✭✭chupacabra


    *WRONG THREAD*


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    #142
    bamboozle
    Registered Users Posts: 3,699 ✭✭✭bamboozle


    if i was coach i'd jettison all players aged 30 and over with the exception of POC and BOD, however there's the small matter of a 3 test tour of NZ next summer so i'm sure Deccie will ensure the old guard will be there to keep scores respectable.

    Looking forward to seeing Gilroy, Spence, Jackson, O'Halloran, Nagle, Luke Mcgrath, conor murray, rhys ruddock, dom ryan, jamie hagan, fionn carr, eoin griffen all play for their provinces this season and build on their potential at a higher level.


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    #143
    sanbrafyffe
    Registered Users Posts: 680 ✭✭✭sanbrafyffe


    i hope kidney looks in to the likes of london irish etc.surley there has to be players that qualify to play for ireland in there


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    #144
    Fireball07
    Registered Users Posts: 13,264 ✭✭✭✭Fireball07


    sanbrafyffe wrote: »
    i hope kidney looks in to the likes of london irish etc.surley there has to be players that qualify to play for ireland in there

    I dunno if they have anyone good enough.

    Brian Blaney? Never in a million years good enough for Ireland.
    Bob Casey? If he was ever good enough, he's 33 now.

    As for players with dual nationalities- Declan Danaher? Over 30 and not good enough. Kieran Roche has an Irish name, don't know if he qualifies but I don't think any of their players are good enough to play for us.


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    #145
    GerM
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,592 ✭✭✭GerM


    sanbrafyffe wrote: »
    i hope kidney looks in to the likes of london irish etc.surley there has to be players that qualify to play for ireland in there

    You would think so, wouldn't you? They've next to nobody. James Sandford is a former Ulster schools player that's over there. Aside from him, nearly everyone else's allegiance lies with England having played with them at schools, U18 or U20 levels.


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    #146
    jacothelad
    Registered Users Posts: 5,926 ✭✭✭jacothelad


    sanbrafyffe wrote: »
    i hope kidney looks in to the likes of london irish etc.surley there has to be players that qualify to play for ireland in there
    There is only one worth looking at. James Sandford, ex-Ulster Academy 2nd row. The 'Irish' in the name is just now a marketing advantage.


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    #147
    GerM
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,592 ✭✭✭GerM


    Fireball07 wrote: »
    Kieran Roche has an Irish name, don't know if he qualifies but I don't think any of their players are good enough to play for us.

    Roche has played for the Saxons i.e. declared for England.


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    #148
    Hagz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,257 ✭✭✭Hagz


    irishbucsfan wrote: »
    In fairness Strauss converted to hooker before he came into the Leinster setup. Strauss played there regularly for the Cheetahs and Leinster signed him as a hooker.

    Seeing as O'Brien has not played 8 at Heineken Cup level I don't think it's something anyone in the Ireland setup would try. .

    I know, I was just pointing out that because Doyle is quite short for a flanker they've moved him into hooker. Similar to what has happened in Strauss' career.
    And O'Brien played 8 against Saracens and Racing Metro in the Heineken, and also packed down at 8 for the majority of the Clermont game in the Aviva. In fact, his best game of the year against Sarries was at 8. I hope he does get an opportunity at 8 again for Leinster and possibly Ireland. His versatility is one of his biggest strengths. It would be nice to utilize a player who can play anywhere in the back-row, rather than stick him to one area. He's said himself that he really enjoys playing at 8, and there are pundits like Brent Pope who think O'Brien at 8 is Ireland's best option. I think it's more realistic to see O'Brien don the 8 jersey for Ireland than it is for anyone in the Irish setup to try Heaslip at 7.


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    #149
    Fireball07
    Registered Users Posts: 13,264 ✭✭✭✭Fireball07


    GerM wrote: »
    Roche has played for the Saxons i.e. declared for England.

    Didn't know that but he's over 30 anyway.

    Sandford being younger and a second row could possibly make it if he's good enough.

    I've never seen him play so I don't know whether he's better/has more potential than players like Nagle, Tuohy, Foley, Sykes, even Donnacha Ryan and Devin Toner.


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    #150
    danthefan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,770 ✭✭✭danthefan


    SOB played at 8 for Ireland against Italy in the 6N this year.


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    #151
    pod6611
    Registered Users Posts: 12 ✭pod6611


    Lack of a true openside flanker in the Pocock mode cost us.
    O'Driscoll is reaching the end as a centre - how about converting him into an openside - he has all the attributes required and would be able to play up to the next WC in this position?


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