Supreme Court says no women need apply to Golf Club. Mod warning post 119

shoegirl · 03-11-2009 6:50pm

eoin wrote: »

Even if they do get cash, women are allowed play there.

Well thats the interesting thing. Not only can women play there, women do play there. I have always questioned as to why women would be so keen to play somewhere as 2nd class beings.

Now that said, there are lots of organizations which are exclusively women-only that get huge funding from state organizations such as the Equality Authority itself. For example, much of the funding available under the Equality for Women measure earlier in the decade went to groups that exclusively cater for women only. Some of them, indeed, have policies that actually bar men from being on the premises. I had the very depressing experience of being at a "debate" at one of these very extreme organizations where they "discussed" this issue - more like a few rather masculine-centric lesbians from the stone age of separatism bellowed that this not be changed because "its the principle of the thing." If a mens group dared have a policy like this, there would be total outrage.

That said, I would suggest that legislation be changed as the spokesperson suggested to remove any kind of rewards in forms of tax exemptions etc to organizations who promote a one-sided view like this. If they want to exist, ok, but don't make it easy for them. Polarised separatist ghettos like these don't help Irish society in any way, be they community groups or sports clubs.

AckwelFoley · 03-11-2009 8:37pm

I heard this on the radio and i am completely split in between two minds

i feel if i have a private club i think im entitled to have who ever i want in it.
Tall women with big boobs only club. Thanks. Gingers need not apply.

However -this private members club is then negated by the fact that they seem to allow women play golf - but not be members its, the fact they are allowed "in" but not allowed the status that bothers me. I think if they dont want women members they shouldnt allow them play as guests of members.

If a golF club dont want women members and its a private club, that wants men only fine. Private club - end of story imo.
Its the fact they let them play golf but not join gets under my skin - that screams more of sexism.

Cadiz · 03-11-2009 8:56pm

MagicMarker wrote: »

Can you provide a link that says the government funds this particular golf course? And more specifically, a link that says the government pays for the golf clubs?

Portmarnock
The Nissan open 2003
http://archives.tcm.ie/businesspost/2003/03/30/story692082149.asp

2nd last para refers to PGA open funding amount
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2003/0722/1058825128587.html

7th para from end Bord failte funding of PGA
http://archives.tcm.ie/businesspost/2003/06/29/story49699808.asp

Others
http://www.dast.gov.ie/publications/release.asp?ID=508

all sports and tourism funding 1999-2003 (ie the ‘boom years’ for golf course development)
http://www.arts-sport-tourism.gov.ie/grants_funding/2003_sportgrants.html

Forgive me if there’s overlap here but note Baltray whopping funding amount..
http://74.125.77.132/search?q=cache:joV7dKQZCmsJ:www.dast.gov.ie/publications/release.asp%3FID%3D491+%22golf+club%22%2B%22grants%22&cd=19&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ie

Bord failte funding plans for Irish open at Baltray
http://www.failteireland.ie/About-Us/News-and-Events/Irish-Open-to-Boost-Golf-and-Tourism

Dail debate refering to government golf funding
http://debates.oireachtas.ie/DDebate.aspx?F=TOS20061206.XML&Ex=All&Page=3

None of the above includes grants through local authorities, which amount to thousands (you can check it on local councils annual reports).

Nor does it include lotto monies, also substantial, but it was govt funding you asked about.

There was large state spend on the Ryder Cup at the K Club in 2006 but I’ve never seen the same figure twice but here are two reference to it

BBC puts figure at stg£4.9 mil
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/northern_ireland/5365698.stm

Telegraph on Ryder – circa £10 mill they put Irish govt spend at
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/1527324/Ireland-accused-of-Ryder-Cup-rip-off.html

Cadiz · 03-11-2009 8:57pm

Zulu wrote: »

Thats twice you've mentioned this. Portmarnock is a private club. Do you have any evidence they get government funds? Any at all??

Posted above in answer to Magic Marker's earlier query

Cupcake_Crisis · 03-11-2009 9:05pm

I dont see what the big deal is! Its a golf club, its not like they're in short supply!

MagicMarker · 03-11-2009 9:13pm

Cadiz wrote: »

Portmarnock
The Nissan open 2003
http://archives.tcm.ie/businesspost/2003/03/30/story692082149.asp

250k to fund the 2003 Irish Open? Is that it? How much of that payed for golf clubs?

Cadiz wrote: »

2nd last para refers to PGA open funding amount
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2003/0722/1058825128587.html

I'm not paying to read that.

Cadiz wrote: »

7th para from end Bord failte funding of PGA
http://archives.tcm.ie/businesspost/2003/06/29/story49699808.asp

Again for the Irish Open, do you think Failte Ireland (AKA the National Tourism Development Authority) gave money for ****s and giggles? I would say this money along with the 250k above was well invested in a tournament that probably benefited the tourism industry as well as the economy, I think your taxes are well spent here.

Cadiz wrote: »

Others
http://www.dast.gov.ie/publications/release.asp?ID=508

all sports and tourism funding 1999-2003 (ie the ‘boom years’ for golf course development)
http://www.arts-sport-tourism.gov.ie/grants_funding/2003_sportgrants.html

Forgive me if there’s overlap here but note Baltray whopping funding amount..
http://74.125.77.132/search?q=cache:joV7dKQZCmsJ:www.dast.gov.ie/publications/release.asp%3FID%3D491+%22golf+club%22%2B%22grants%22&cd=19&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ie

Bord failte funding plans for Irish open at Baltray
http://www.failteireland.ie/About-Us/News-and-Events/Irish-Open-to-Boost-Golf-and-Tourism

Dail debate refering to government golf funding
http://debates.oireachtas.ie/DDebate.aspx?F=TOS20061206.XML&Ex=All&Page=3

None of the above includes grants through local authorities, which amount to thousands (you can check it on local councils annual reports).

Nor does it include lotto monies, also substantial, but it was govt funding you asked about.

There was large state spend on the Ryder Cup at the K Club in 2006 but I’ve never seen the same figure twice but here are two reference to it

BBC puts figure at stg£4.9 mil
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/northern_ireland/5365698.stm

Telegraph on Ryder – circa £10 mill they put Irish govt spend at
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/1527324/Ireland-accused-of-Ryder-Cup-rip-off.html

Absolutely nothing about Portmarnock Golf Club in the rest of your links.

Still waiting on a link that give details on how many golf clubs the government pays for?

fly_agaric · 03-11-2009 9:35pm

Bond-007 wrote: »

http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/1103/portmarnock.html

I shudder to think how much time (and therefore money) has been wasted on this non-issue (district court->high court, then supreme court!!)?

Ah sure wtf, its only tax payers money & its all for the cause of "equality" after all!:pac:

Cadiz · 03-11-2009 9:45pm

Can't work multiquote, so I've bolded yours for clarity.

MagicMarker wrote: »

250k to fund the 2003 Irish Open? Is that it? How much of that payed for golf clubs?

What do you mean is that it? That's plenty. The money was for the Open but Portmarnock is the biggest beneficiary of that, given that the thing was held there - obviously.

I'm not paying to read that. No, I should have realised you're not an avid media subscriber, if you were you'd know all this alread. Here it is cut and pasted for you with the para relevant to this discussion highlighted.

RTE says it has declined Irish Open marketing opportunities

Tue, Jul 22, 2003
RTÉ says it has turned down the opportunity to exploit the marketing and sponsorship potential of this week's Nissan Irish Open because of the men-only membership policy of its host venue, Portmarnock Golf Club, writes Joe Humphreys .
A spokeswoman for the State broadcaster said: "We are going to show the event but we are not giving them more than we have to.
"We have considered this issue in depth, and have taken into account the fact that golf is a huge sport in Ireland. The Open is a huge sporting event and deserves to be a part of our schedule, as it always has been.
"But we have declined the opportunity to get involved in marketing or sponsorship because of the discrimination issue."
She was responding yesterday to criticism from the National Women's Council of Ireland over RTÉ's support for the €2 million event, which is returning to Portmarnock after a 13-year absence. The station is covering at least 25 hours of the Open through live broadcasts and an evening highlights show between Thursday and Sunday.
Council chairwoman Ms Mary Kelly said yesterday that several of its members had phoned RTÉ to express the view that "they are aggrieved at having to pay the licence fee while this event is getting such liberal coverage".
While she said the council did not have an official position on whether RTÉ should boycott the Open, "we mirror the concerns of our affiliate members". At the very least, she said, RTÉ should "create some balance" in its coverage, giving sufficient airing to the views of women over the use of Portmarnock.
The RTÉ spokeswoman said it had already given a significant amount of coverage to such objections.
Ms Kelly said the council's concerns over RTÉ's involvement in the Open "mirrored" those it had over the use of State funds to part-sponsor the event.

Under a €720,000 deal with the PGA European Tour, Fáilte Ireland has been nominated an associate sponsor of the Open, guaranteeing it prominence in media coverage. The investment is aimed at promoting Ireland and Irish golf tourism.

A date for the hearing of a case by the Equality Authority against Portmarnock over its membership policy is due to be set in the Dublin District Court tomorrow. The authority has alleged that Portmarnock's ban on women membership makes it a "discriminating club" under section 8 of the Equal Status Act 2000. If the District Court finds against the club, it may be refused a licence to sell alcohol for 30 days, with the threat of an indefinite alcohol ban unless it changes its policy.

Again for the Irish Open, do you think Failte Ireland (AKA the National Tourism Development Authority) gave money for ****s and giggles? I would say this money along with the 250k above was well invested in a tournament that probably benefited the tourism industry as well as the economy, I think your taxes are well spent here.

I might say the same, but you asked for references to our taxes being spent on golf clubs and I'm giving them to you, that's the point here.

Absolutely nothing about Portmarnock Golf Club in the rest of your links.

Yeees, keep up, that's why the links were headed 'others'. You asked about golf clubs, plural remember.

Still waiting on a link that give details on how many golf clubs the government pays for?

That is in the info I gave you, figures are there from 1999-2003, look again.

Funding for golf post-2003 has tended to be more towards players via the Sports Council - you can check that on its website yourself. (The Ryder Cup being a notable exception).

Portmarnock hasn't had funding from any exchequer source more recently mainly because of its membership policy.

Cadiz · 03-11-2009 9:48pm

fly_agaric wrote: »

I shudder to think how much time (and therefore money) has been wasted on this non-issue (district court->high court, then supreme court!!)?

Ah sure wtf, its only tax payers money & its all for the cause of "equality" after all!:pac:

True. This is at least the second case, I believe there was one around 2002 also..

RMD · 03-11-2009 9:54pm

Being a member of one of two clubs in question Royal Dublin I'm supportive of this in a way. The club was set-up by men, built for men to play golf, funded entirely by men etc so why should we be obligated to let women become members?

If I can't become a member of Curves womens gym for example, why should women be allowed to become members of a club created for men if the club doesn't wish so?

Borneo Fnctn · 03-11-2009 9:54pm

Let them set up their own golf club and they'll see if we give a shit.

MagicMarker · 03-11-2009 9:56pm

Cadiz wrote: »

Can't work multiquote, so I've bolded yours for clarity.

[/B]

That is in the info I gave you, figures are there from 1999-2003, look again.

Funding for golf post-2003 has tended to be more towards players via the Sports Council - you can check that on its website yourself. (The Ryder Cup being a notable exception).

Portmarnock hasn't had funding from any exchequer source more recently mainly because of its membership policy.

Of course Portmarnock was the biggest beneficiary of the tournament, did the government choose where the tournament was held? I'm not up on my golf, but I don't think they did.

You say I asked about golf clubs, as in plural, I didn't, I specifically asked for links regarding Portmarnock golf club. You've provided 2 or 3 links, all associated with the 2003 Irish Open.

Once again, the government invested in a tournament that happened to benefit the country, it's economy and tourism. I'm sorry you feel your taxes were wasted, but you're wrong.

With the way you were moaning about this, I was expecting something a little more substantial.

And I'm still waiting on a link to show how many golf clubs the government has paid for.

Zulu · 03-11-2009 10:19pm

Cadiz wrote: »

Portmarnock hasn't had funding from any exchequer source more recently mainly because of its membership policy.

So what you are saying is that your origional point is, in fact, bullshit; that Portmarnock don't recieve tax payers money?

aine-maire · 03-11-2009 10:30pm

stovelid wrote: »

I, for one, am delighted to see the Supreme Court spending time and tax-payer's money legislating on the burning issues of the day.

But this is an interesting point of law... Can't you see the debate it's just thrown up on boards?

(Also the Supreme Court doesn't legislate.)

Cadiz · 03-11-2009 10:32pm

Zulu wrote: »

So what you are saying is that your origional point is, in fact, bullshit; that Portmarnock don't recieve tax payers money?

Do you not see the 'more recently' there? Did you walk in to a tree and hit your head when you were out on the green or something?

Cadiz · 03-11-2009 10:43pm

(Magic Marker's quotes in bold)

You say I asked about golf clubs, as in plural, I didn't, I specifically asked for links regarding Portmarnock golf club. You've provided 2 or 3 links, all associated with the 2003 Irish Open.

Yes you did, you said this: "And more specifically, a link that says the government pays for the golf clubs?"

I was expecting something a little more substantial. Close on three quarters of a million euros is substantial.

And I'm still waiting on a link to show how many golf clubs the government has paid for. You needn't wait, you merely need to pay attention, I've already posted it, as I said. Once again, for the second time: http://www.arts-sport-tourism.gov.ie/grants_funding/2003_sportgrants.html

MagicMarker · 03-11-2009 10:51pm

Cadiz wrote: »

You say I asked about golf clubs, as in plural, I didn't, I specifically asked for links regarding Portmarnock golf club. You've provided 2 or 3 links, all associated with the 2003 Irish Open.

Yes you did, you said this: "And more specifically, a link that says the government pays for the golf clubs?"

:rolleyes:

Way to misquote me, here is ALL of what I said...

MagicMarker wrote: »

Can you provide a link that says the government funds this particular golf course? And more specifically, a link that says the government pays for the golf clubs?

Cadiz wrote: »

I was expecting something a little more substantial. Close on three quarters of a million euros is substantial.

And I'm still waiting on a link to show how many golf clubs the government has paid for. You needn't wait, you merely need to pay attention, I've already posted it, as I said. Once again, for the second time: http://www.arts-sport-tourism.gov.ie/grants_funding/2003_sportgrants.html

*Sigh*.... 750k, 6 years ago, to fund the Irish Open, a tournament that benefits the Irish economy. How many times do I have to repeat this? And once again, that link doesn't show any mention of Portmarnock Golf Club.

I think you're posting in the wrong forum at this stage, you clearly have some kind of strange obsession with the golfing community and who pays for their clubs, I suggest if you have a problem with this, you should start a campaign or something.

Onearmedbandit · 03-11-2009 10:55pm

WindSock wrote: »

Or why it's ok for black people to have MOBO's but white people can't have MOWO's? (or similar in Ireland) See Meteor awards show :P

Or people of different ethnicities have their own societies exclusive to their culture, but whites don't? See the deep south in US

Or why Gay pride can have a day but straight people don't? Nothing stopping you having a parade

Or why gay people have their own clubs but straight people can't have straights only? AFAIK I don't think there are any gay only clubs in Ireland, you and I can walk into the George anytime

Maybe because the straight white middle class male in Ireland is the dominant class and culture and we have to live and abide by that in almost every other aspect of our daily lives.

Its funny how some people react to these things. Its their club let them do what they want with it. Would you want to be made let someone into your group of friends? Hows it any different?

ixoy · 03-11-2009 10:55pm

It's amusing to see Portmarnock Golf Club being referred to as merely "Portmarnock". I've a mental image now of the town being bordered up around me with women not allowed live here any more...

Overheal · 03-11-2009 11:03pm

Only in Amer- Oh wait...

Cadiz · 03-11-2009 11:17pm

MagicMarker wrote: »

I think you're posting in the wrong forum at this stage, you clearly have some kind of strange obsession with the golfing community and who pays for their clubs, I suggest if you have a problem with this, you should start a campaign or something.

Lol, for someone who says "I'm not up on my golf" (whoops not misquoting you there now am I :rolleyes:) it's quite the strange obsession you have with it yourself!

Perhaps you should start a 'people who disagree with me have a problem/strange obsession/are moaning' campaign. Although I can't see membership growing beyond one. Still that means no equality disagreements then doesn't it.

My point stands - I'm happy for Portmarnock (and clubs with similar membership policies, though dwindling in numbers) can do what they like as long as my taxes don't go towards funding them. (That's not moaning by the way, it's expressing a valid opinion).

ascanbe · 03-11-2009 11:17pm

They should be allowed have their own private little club if they have never recieved a penny of taxpayers money; if they have recieved taxpayers money they should not until such time as they pay it back.

MagicMarker · 03-11-2009 11:26pm

Cadiz wrote: »

My point stands - I'm happy for Portmarnock (and clubs with similar membership policies, though dwindling in numbers) can do what they like as long as my taxes don't go towards funding them. (That's not moaning by the way, it's expressing a valid opinion).

Well as you've so kindly proved, your taxes aren't going towards them. And more importantly, they're not paying for the bad man's golf clubs:rolleyes:

victor11 · 03-11-2009 11:26pm

Onearmedbandit wrote: »

Its funny how some people react to these things. Its their club let them do what they want with it. Would you want to be made let someone into your group of friends? Hows it any different?

Totally agree - I couldnt give two f**K* about women 'being allowed to join' or not.... Leave them at it....

ascanbe · 03-11-2009 11:38pm

Onearmedbandit wrote: »

Its funny how some people react to these things. Its their club let them do what they want with it. Would you want to be made let someone into your group of friends? Hows it any different?

If taxpayers money was channeled specifically towards funding the leisure activities of you and your friends then people would have a right to say 'Hey, how come my money is going towards funding these people. They won't let me hang out with them. What gives?'

Kirnsy · 04-11-2009 1:38am

who cares?

in all honesty how many women really care about this?
let the chaps pay the €12,000 per year to play golf.

since its their club they can make their rules.as long as its legal i think the world will get over it.

Zulu · 04-11-2009 8:20am

Cadiz wrote: »

Do you not see the 'more recently' there?

Clap. Clap. Clap.
I did, but all that means is that your point is incorrect; all that means is that Portmarnock Golf club* does NOT get tax money. So your point is rubbish, or bullshit as I suggested.

Did you walk in to a tree and hit your head when you were out on the green or something?

They don't have trees on the green.

*thats for you Ioxy

Zulu · 04-11-2009 8:22am

ascanbe wrote: »

If taxpayers money was channeled specifically towards funding the leisure activities of you and your friends then people would have a right to say 'Hey, how come my money is going towards funding these people. They won't let me hang out with them. What gives?'

Thats a big IF, particullary since no tax money* is funding these people.

*seeing as no proof can be provided to the contrary

Caoimhín · 04-11-2009 8:22am

The wimmins should be allowed in when men are allowed to join the ICA.

http://www.ica.ie/

I know :rolleyes:, but it is a point of principal..

m5ex9oqjawdg2i · 04-11-2009 8:27am

Overheal wrote: »

Only in Amer- Oh wait...

You make this reply in soooo many posts... it's worn out. Really...

Supreme Court says no women need apply to Golf Club. Mod warning post 119

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