The M50 Barrier Free Tolling Thread

simples · 16-06-2009 5:22pm

Sinderella wrote: »

Still haven't found anyone who can answer the (to me) blindingly obvious:
How can they threaten to take you to court for "failing" to pay a toll when you refuse to pay a fine? (as happened to me)
I paid the toll, albeit a few hours late but I paid it. I'll be fecked if I'm gonna give them another 40 odd € on the back of the totally irrelevant law they keep quoting at me!

All letters are now filed in my green bin

I'd still put my money on this being the main reason for cases being chucked out of court. If one ever gets as far as court! :rolleyes:

I'm not 100% on the court cases, as we got as much info as anybody else i.e. none. But I would imagine they would go down the line of you not paying the fine due to failing to pay the toll within the time limit? If any other more experienced agents have an answer I'm sure they will let you know.

But I certainly wouldn't recommend throwing out any letters, keep them as a reference for solicitors or anyone else, even if you aren't going to pay. The letters are automatically generated by the system at head office so you can't be guaranteed BEF will provide you with extra copies.

Sinderella · 16-06-2009 5:34pm

Thanks simples, but the law only states that you are open to prosecution if you fail pay the toll. AFAIK, there is no law that states the toll must be paid by 8pm of the day following your passage. I'm open to correction on that of course.
That's why I think their cases are flimsy.

Also, I wouldn't be suprised if some legal eagle somewhere could dig up an Irish / European law that allows someone more than 48hrs to pay a toll if facilities are not there to pay at the time.
There's always a loophole!

Our man in Havana · 16-06-2009 6:00pm

If eflow/BEF/NRA were so confident of their cases they would be dragging non payers thru the courts at a rate of knots. To date they have taken no one to court. I reckon they will never bother.

mp22 · 16-06-2009 7:22pm

Thanks for the replies think I will try the credit card option (with print screen)
will let you know how it goes.

Sinderella · 16-06-2009 8:25pm

Bond-007 wrote: »

If eflow/BEF/NRA were so confident of their cases they would be dragging non payers thru the courts at a rate of knots. To date they have taken no one to court. I reckon they will never bother.

I reckon you could be right Mr Bond.

I called them about my fine and asked the girl on the phone why they charged this €40 for late payment.
"you just have to pay it" (very informative)
They also wanted me to re-pay the €6 I had already paid!
Again I asked why
"because you have to"
:eek:
eh... I don't think so!

I'd have been just as enlightened if I'd asked my 3 year old.

Anyhoo, that was about 4 weeks ago, I've heard nothing since, should I expect a solicitors letter?

Our man in Havana · 16-06-2009 10:20pm

I've heard nothing since, should I expect a solicitors letter?

You will receive a letter from Sue, Legget and Run in due course.

ART6 · 16-06-2009 10:29pm

benifa wrote: »

Sure fire way of avoiding the hassle and the cost, is not to use that part of the M50.

My wife tried that by never ever driving beyond Waterford city. She still got a toll demand and a threatening letter:)

Sinderella · 16-06-2009 11:10pm

Bond-007 wrote: »

You will receive a letter from Sue, Legget and Run in due course.

I will wait anxiously by my letterbox!

Seth Brundle · 17-06-2009 9:09am

Which piece of legislation governs the toll penalties?

guitar · 17-06-2009 10:56am

kbannon wrote: »

Which piece of legislation governs the toll penalties?

Its to do with the By Laws of the M50. I would ellborate but ive gotta go do an exam,

Im also an ex employee

Sinderella · 17-06-2009 11:18am

kbannon wrote: »

Which piece of legislation governs the toll penalties?

AFAIK, the actual tolling itself is the "Local Government (Toll Roads) Act, 1979"

The law (and the bit they quote from in their threatening letters) states:
"It is an offence in Ireland to fail, neglect or refuse to pay a toll on a national road.
Failure to pay your toll will mean that you cannot pass along the road."

I assume this quote is fron the "ROADS ACT, 1993"
which I haven't read but you can read it here:
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1993/en/act/pub/0014/index.html

I can't find anything that lays out exact time limits on what is considerd to be a failure to pay though.

Personally, I stand by what I said, I did not "fail, neglect or refuse to pay". I paid as soon as I could, which happened to be a few hours past their 8pm time limit. (I would have paid on time if it wasn't for their ****ty system. I did try.)

simples · 17-06-2009 11:48am

Thanks Sinderella, I had a look at the link you gave and this part of the Roads Act 1993 seems to apply to the collection of tolls. I read over it briefly, but I am in no way legally inclined so I won't pretend to know exactly what it is about. Here is the link:

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1993/en/act/pub/0014/sec0056.html

The relevant points I picked up are:
Section 59.—(1) Subject to the provisions of this Part, a road authority may charge and collect tolls of such amounts as may be specified for the time being in bye-laws made by it under section 61 in respect of the use of a toll road.

and section 61 mentioned there refers to..

Section 61.—(1) A road authority may, after consultation with the Commissioner, make such bye-laws as it considers expedient for the purposes of the operation and management of a toll road.

As I said, I am not a legally minded person, but does it seem to anyone else that eFlow are allowed by the law to charge whatever they want through their own bye-laws? It also mentions that "Bye-laws made under subsection (1) shall have no effect unless and until the Minister approves them.".. so these have been passed by Noel Dempsey if I'm not mistaken.

If anyone interprets anything else interesting please let us know!

Our man in Havana · 17-06-2009 12:18pm

And it would make it a criminal matter.

But they are using the civil route to collect. You can't collect fines using the civil debt procedures.

Sinderella · 17-06-2009 12:25pm

Jeez simples, that's a bit scary if eflow can just create their own bye-laws! I imagine the minister who has to sign off crap like that not even bothering to take the time to read it lol!

Bond-007 wrote: »

And it would make it a criminal matter.

But they are using the civil route to collect. You can't collect fines using the civil debt procedures.

I haven't a clue about the difference between the courts / systems but this is on the citizens information website re tolls:

"Penalties for not paying toll fees
All motorists who are liable to pay toll fees and who fail, neglect or refuse to pay them are guilty of an offence. They are liable on summary conviction in a District Court to a fine not exceeding €1,270.
The amount of any toll due is recoverable as a simple contract debt in any District Court."

"simple contract debt in any District Court."

Our man in Havana · 17-06-2009 12:29pm

The amount of any toll due is recoverable as a simple contract debt in any District Court.

Indeed i.e. €3.00 a civil matter.
The penalties (which a criminal matter) cannot be collected in such a manner.

simples · 17-06-2009 12:34pm

Sinderella wrote: »

"simple contract debt in any District Court."

I think this means that by using the M50 you are entering in to a contract to pay the tolls, associated fines incorporated into the contract? Therefore by failing to pay any/all amounts due you are open to the prosecution for breaching the contract.

And I reckon that by your car being on the road this is seen as willingness to enter the contract. As far as I know, being the registered owner of the car makes you liable, regardless of whether or not you were the driver on the day.

Our man in Havana · 17-06-2009 12:40pm

simples wrote: »

I think this means that by using the M50 you are entering in to a contract to pay the tolls, associated fines incorporated into the contract? Therefore by failing to pay any/all amounts due you are open to the prosecution for breaching the contract.

And I reckon that by your car being on the road this is seen as willingness to enter the contract. As far as I know, being the registered owner of the car makes you liable, regardless of whether or not you were the driver on the day.

The tolls can be collected as a civil debt. The fines or penaties cannot be collected using civil procedures. They are a criminal matter.

The registered owner being liable will have to be tested in court. In a civil action it would be very unlikely to be held that a registered owner can be held responsible for a drivers actions. The contract would be between the driver and the NRA.

As there have been no court cases we could be waiting a while for a ruling.

simples · 17-06-2009 12:46pm

Thanks for the clarification! I did say I wasn't legally minded

We were all eagerly waiting the outcome of any court cases in the call centre, out of curiosity as well as to be able to answer questions over the phone. I reckon anyone who was (or still is.. Abtran!) on the phones would still be very interested to see how the whole thing pans out legally.

Sinderella · 17-06-2009 1:04pm

It's all too confusing! Which is probably why they haven't tested a case yet. Probably scared of the big can of worms

I hope the 1st person in court is a boards user and can give us a running commentary :cool:

Sponge Bob · 17-06-2009 2:44pm

Sinderella wrote: »

"Penalties for not paying toll fees
All motorists who are liable to pay toll fees and who fail, neglect or refuse to pay them are guilty of an offence. They are liable on summary conviction in a District Court to a fine not exceeding €1,270.
The amount of any toll due is recoverable as a simple contract debt in any District Court."

"simple contract debt in any District Court."

The section of the 1993 Act allow for BYE LAWS to be made. The penalties are specified in the BYE laws themselves or published in accordance with the Bye Laws

These bye-laws are made by the minister or the chairman of the NRA for a stretch of road and publised in Irish Oifigiuil, here is the Kilcock - Kinnegad one

http://www.irisoifigiuil.ie/archive/2005/november/2005%2011%2015%20IO%20Issue.pdf

That Bye Law does not set out a penalty but says

A person who is liable to pay the Appropriate Toll and who
fails, neglects or refuses to pay the Appropriate Toll shall
be guilty of an Offence
The amount of any Appropriate Toll due and payable by a
person under these Bye-Laws and unpaid may be recovered
from the person by whom it is payable as a simple contract
debt, including any statutory administrative charges that
may apply, in any court of competent jurisdiction.

The M50 Toll Scheme Bye Laws are here

http://www.irisoifigiuil.ie/archive/2008/july/2008%2007%2025%20IO%20Issue.pdf

Page 17 onwards, look for NRA sign .

Note 1

The Interpretation Act 2005 shall apply to these Bye-Laws.

Note 2 , Section 6.2

no User or Vehicle may use the Toll Road without:
(a) during the Interim Period, paying the Applicable Toll or having arrangements, to
the satisfaction of the Authority, for payment of the Applicable Toll and such
arrangements are complied with; or
(b) at any other time:
(i) in the case of a Registered Vehicle, having arrangements, to the
satisfaction of the Authority, for payment of the Applicable Toll and such
arrangements are complied with; or
(ii) in the case of an Unregistered Vehicle, paying, or arranging for the
payment of, the Applicable Toll on or before the Cut-Off Time.

Therefore if you AUTHORISED a credit card payment but it had not gone through you can prove "arranging" and are compliant . What is this "cut-off time" mallarkey then ???

That is in the definitions

“Cut-off Time” means, in respect of any use of the Toll Road, 20:00 on the day
following such use.

also note

“Initial Default
Toll”
means, in respect of each User/Vehicle Class and at any time, the
Base Initial Default Toll, adjusted in accordance with Regulation
15.
“Initial Default
Period”
means the period within which an Accountable Person may pay the
Initial Default Toll, being fourteen (14) days after:
(a) the Cut-Off Time; or
(b) in the case of any Applicable Toll the subject of collection
arrangements, the expiry of the relevant collection period
specified in such collection arrangements

“Additional
Default Toll”
means, in respect of each User/Vehicle Class and at any time, the
Base Additional Default Toll, adjusted in accordance with
Regulation 15.
“Additional
Default Period”
means the period within which an Accountable Person may pay the
Additional Default Toll, being fifty-six (56) days after the expiry of
the Initial Default Period.

20:00 GMT or BST or UTC , it does not say , that would be an hours grace for sure unless teh Interpretation Act 2005 has a definition of time therein

To Section 13

13. TOLLS – PUBLICLY AVAILABLE
13.1 A list of the Applicable Tolls for an Unregistered Vehicle authorised by these Bye-Laws
shall at all times be exhibited in a conspicuous place at or near the Toll Location on the
Toll Road.

To Sections 18 and 19

18. FAILURE TO PAY TOLL
18.1 A person who is liable to pay the Toll and who fails, neglects or refuses to pay the Toll
shall be guilty of an offence in accordance with Section 64 of the Act.
18.2 The amount of any Toll due under these Bye-Laws and unpaid in respect of the use by a
Vehicle of a Toll Road may be recovered from a responsible Accountable Person by
whom it is payable as a simple contract debt.
18.3 Where there is any Toll outstanding in relation to a Vehicle:
(a) such Vehicle is not entitled to use the Toll Road; and
(b) the Road Operator may, by itself or with such assistance as it thinks necessary,
stop and prevent that Vehicle from using the Toll Road.
19. DEFAULT TOLLS
19.1 Where the Applicable Toll payable in respect of the use of the Toll Road by a Vehicle is
not paid on or before:
(a) the Cut-Off Time; or
(b) in the case of any Applicable Toll the subject of collection arrangements, the
expiry of the relevant collection period specified in such collection arrangements,
in each case, applicable to such Applicable Toll, the Accountable Person shall thereupon
be liable to pay the Initial Default Toll applicable to the Vehicle Class to which the
Vehicle belongs.
19.2 Where the Initial Default Toll payable in accordance with Regulation 19.1 is not paid
before the expiry of the Initial Default Period, the Accountable Person shall thereupon be
liable to pay the Additional Default Toll applicable to the Vehicle Class to which the
Vehicle belongs.
19.3 Where the Additional Default Toll payable in accordance with Regulation 19.2 is not
paid before the expiry of the Additional Default Period, the Accountable Person shall be
liable to pay immediately the Final Default Toll applicable to the Vehicle Class to which
the Vehicle belongs.

Therefore to satisfy the requirements of Section 13 the following tolls

Applicable Toll
Initial Default Toll
Additional Default Toll

Must at "all times be exhibited in a conspicuous place at or near the Toll Location

simples · 17-06-2009 4:31pm

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Therefore to satisfy the requirements of Section 13 the following tolls

Applicable Toll
Initial Default Toll
Additional Default Toll

Must at "all times be exhibited in a conspicuous place at or near the Toll Location

Good spot! This caused some grievances, as a lot of customers felt they weren't fully informed of the consequences of non-payment. We leaned on the fact that it does state to pay by 8pm. In fairness.. saying there is a deadline does suggest that there are consequences, but non-regular users wouldn't be fully informed.

A lot of customers going to the airport or for a shopping trip to Newry or elsewhere may not have been fully aware of how important it is to pay on time. If they tried to pay online, over the phone or in store but weren't able to for one reason or another, they more often than not would think "sure I'll pay it tomorrow" not realising they are leaving themselves open to fines.

Paying €6.00 for a return outside the deadline they would not know to give a reference so they can pay the 2 x €3.00 STRs i.e. €12.00 total. If, and I stress IF they got a letter(s) requesting €6.00 they assume it's paid and be done with it. 14 days later.. €41.50 hits them.

Information on fines needs to be transparent from the outset so customers can make fully informed decisions on how/when/how much they are paying.

Bluefoam · 17-06-2009 4:54pm

Am I supposed to brake suddenly and type the phone number into my phone when I see the sign on the M50? I'm not good at remembering numbers as I pass them at motorway speeds...

ART6 · 17-06-2009 5:14pm

Bluefoam wrote: »

Am I supposed to brake suddenly and type the phone number into my phone when I see the sign on the M50? I'm not good at remembering numbers as I pass them at motorway speeds...

Presumably yes. That's why the toll booths were replaced -- to eliminate the traffic delays:D

I never cease to be amazed by the inventive minds of FF when it comes to screwing the public.

Maybe there's another way of administering this system -- Give the contract to an Irish company. Give occasional users a week to pay. Give regular users a chip card that works. Provide a call centre that is not hamstrung.

Alternatively, accept that the public have paid for the bridge at least three times over by now and scrap all tolls.

Carawaystick · 17-06-2009 8:43pm

SpongeBob, How does the priority of laws affect the M50 byelaws?
i'd imagine national legislation passed by the Oireachtas and signed into law by a minister overrides any byelaw where they conflict no?

And the latest law to be signed by a minister overrides any older laws where they conflict?

So the consumer protection act which makes it a criminal offence to advertise misleading prices would over rule the M50 byelaws. The price for a car as advertised on the M50 is EUR3 and discounts may apply. No extra costs advertised there, so charging more would be breaking this law.

KBannon, I sent a follow up reminder email to the nra asking them about the lack of email yesterday, also why their website only works with certain browsers, not safari nor the symbian browser - I pointed out using a mobile would be much handier to pay online.... original email sent at the start of the month, not holding my breath though.....

Sponge Bob · 17-06-2009 9:10pm

Carawaystick wrote: »

SpongeBob, How does the priority of laws affect the M50 byelaws?

i'd imagine national legislation passed by the Oireachtas and signed into law by a minister overrides any byelaw where they conflict no?

Yep . A New Act could certainly invalidate bye-laws

And the latest law to be signed by a minister overrides any older laws where they conflict?

No conflict, newest is rightest .

So the consumer protection act which makes it a criminal offence to advertise misleading prices would over rule the M50 byelaws.

A 1980 act , not sure about that . It may also exclude road tolls ( even back then) from its scope but I have not checked .

The price for a car as advertised on the M50 is EUR3 and discounts may apply. No extra costs advertised there, so charging more would be breaking this law.

Well my reading of the bye laws is that the prices must be clearly displayed . That means as I said that ALL of these tolls detailed in the

sponge bob wrote:

Therefore to satisfy the requirements of Section 13 the following tolls

Applicable Toll
Initial Default Toll
Additional Default Toll

Must at "all times be exhibited in a conspicuous place at or near the Toll Location"

All of them , they are equally valid in the bye law . Therefore the signage mandated in section 13 should display all of those tolls not just the €3 which is the 'Applicable Toll' on that list .

My reading is that if all 3 of those tolls are not clearly shown on a sign then they may not be applied . I only ever saw the €3 one on a sign .

Read the bye law sections 13 and 18 19 and the definitions .

papachango · 18-06-2009 1:28am

Appreciate all the good information here folks, keep it up.
I need some clarification on the 'Default Tolls'.
When you get an eflow letter looking for over €40 for not paying a toll, can they legally extort that amount from you in a court? Clearly they have not displayed any other amount apart from €3 on the gantry/signage.
I understand it that they can only charge you the amount that is displayed on the gantry e.g. €3 and that future 'penalties' €40 etc have no standing unless they are also displayed on the gantry. Is this correct?

I do not understand clearly spongebob so any clarification would be welcomed. (I am being 'groomed' by Eflow at the moment for a right rodgering!)

Big thanks to Jenny for revealing what we all suspected.

Lets blatantly screw the moronic Irish again, Just keep pumping 'em full of soap operas and pints.

At least dick turpin wore a mask to let you know you were being robbed!

Seth Brundle · 18-06-2009 7:13am

papachango wrote: »

Appreciate all the good information here folks, keep it up.
I need some clarification on the 'Default Tolls'.
When you get an eflow letter looking for over €40 for not paying a toll, can they legally extort that amount from you in a court? Clearly they have not displayed any other amount apart from €3 on the gantry/signage.
I understand it that they can only charge you the amount that is displayed on the gantry e.g. €3 and that future 'penalties' €40 etc have no standing unless they are also displayed on the gantry. Is this correct?

Thats my understanding of it so far. I was fairly certain that a law (don't know what kind) was passed in the last year or two concerning the tolling. If thats the case then it may overrule all of the above.

Sponge Bob · 18-06-2009 8:10am

papachango wrote: »

I understand it that they can only charge you the amount that is displayed on the gantry e.g. €3 and that future 'penalties' €40 etc have no standing unless they are also displayed on the gantry. Is this correct?

The word "conspicous" is used in Section 13 of the bye law . I need photos

The 3 charges must ALL be "conspicuous" , eg the €3 , the €6 and the €40 which are as I understand it the Applicable Toll and the Initial Default Toll and the Additional Default Toll as defined in the bye law. So far we agree that the Applicable Toll of €3 is clearly displayed but the bye law states that all three of them are to be displayed in a "conspicuous" manner .

As it is a free flow system and as there is no requirement to leave the car or to drop below approx 50kph then there is a requirement for all the charges to be "conspicuous" from your car AND while travelling at 50kph AND in all light conditions to a person with average vision . I need more photos I think

KBannon. The M50 bye laws I refer to were published less than 1 year ago . They are secondary legislation not primary legislation but they are the applicable law. If there is something else or something more recent then show it to me please.

These are they, page 17 onwards. http://www.irisoifigiuil.ie/archive/2008/july/2008%2007%2025%20IO%20Issue.pdf

An updated version would have appeared in a more recent Iris Oifigiuil than that one from July 2008 , eg had there been a change in primary legislation such as a Roads Act 2009 or somesuch.

A final point is that if they DO change the signs in future to make them "Conspicuous" then before and after photos will prove that the old sign was not "conspicuous" and will get you off any charges ( over €3) occured BEFORE the new sign went up .

Seth Brundle · 18-06-2009 8:27am

Sponge Bob wrote: »

KBannon. The M50 bye laws I refer to were published less than 1 year ago . They are secondary legislation not primary legislation but they are the applicable law. If there is something else or something more recent then show it to me please.

These are they, page 17 onwards. http://www.irisoifigiuil.ie/archive/2008/july/2008%2007%2025%20IO%20Issue.pdf

An updated version would have appeared in a more recent Iris Oifigiuil than that one from July 2008 , eg had there been a change in primary legislation such as a Roads Act 2009 or somesuch.

Cool - that pretty much finalises it then!
I wonder what the NRA have to say about it all

Sponge Bob · 18-06-2009 8:44am

kbannon wrote: »

Cool - that pretty much finalises it then!
I wonder what the NRA have to say about it all

The NRA will say nothing whatsoever.

If you get a fine and are satisfied that only the €3 charge is displayed properly AND that you paid it then write this email to info@nra.ie

"Under Section 13 of the M50 Toll Bye Laws published in July 2008 it is a requirement that ALL potentially applicable tolls, namely the following 3 :

Applicable Toll
Initial Default Toll
Additional Default Toll

are displayed in a "conspicuous" manner in what a reasonable person would consider a reasonable proximity to the Toll location north of the Liffey on the M50 and where this "conspicuous" signage is readily readable from a vehicle moving at the minimum motorway speed of 50kph.

As the only toll so displayed is the Applicable Toll of €3 then any effort to collect any other toll by the NRA or by any agent of the NRA is ultra vires by reason of non display of said toll in a "conspicuous " manner as prescribed by Section 13 of the M50 Toll Bye Laws .

As I have paid my €3 I require that you immediately cease harassing me for any additional monies as these additional monies are not displayed in "conspicuous" manner as per the applicable bye laws .

Failure to comply shall result in my taking a legal action against the NRA"

Alun · 18-06-2009 8:46am

If you're going to do that I'd suggest you spell conspicuous properly first.

Seth Brundle · 18-06-2009 8:49am

As I have only used the barrier free toll once (ouot of necessity) can someone please confirm that it does indeed refer to the €3 toll (and presumably the default tolls for other vehicle types)

Sponge Bob · 18-06-2009 8:50am

done Alun

simples · 18-06-2009 10:28am

kbannon wrote: »

As I have only used the barrier free toll once (ouot of necessity) can someone please confirm that it does indeed refer to the €3 toll (and presumably the default tolls for other vehicle types)

I have never been on the M50, but from photos I have seen I believe that there are 4 signs northbound and 4 southbound:
The first one advises that you are on a toll road and tells you the applicable charge for each vehicle, starting with cars at €3 then €3.80, €5.10 and so on.
The second one tells you to pay by 8pm the following day, then lists the 1890 number, the website (www.eflow.ie) and a payzone logo.
The third sign is exactly the same as the second.
The fourth sign is the same again, only in Irish.

The first 2 signs are on the road BEFORE the gantries, the second 2 are AFTER the gantries.

The only hint towards further consequences is in mentioning the 8pm deadline. It does not mention additional amounts of €3 or €41.50.

Also I personally would not have known what the Payzone logo refers to. I don't know if this system is widely recognised by the public.
Although, at the same time, I wouldn't be able to use this option unless I was in a Southern reg car.. the vast majority (I know of only 2 exceptions) of Payzone stores can only accept southern style registrations.
But then AGAIN!! They can get these completely wrong.. entering the letter "O" instead of the number "0" etc.

Hope this clarifies the issue of "conspicuous" signage

Our man in Havana · 18-06-2009 10:42am

I would say that ultimately the whole house of cards will fall over bad signage if it ever saw the inside of a courtroom.

Sponge Bob · 18-06-2009 10:55am

Somebody please photograph all the signs in a given direction ( either the 4 northbound or the four southbound ) and chuck them onto photobucket and PM me please .

TIA

guitar · 19-06-2009 12:29pm

Sponge bob! You shoulda mentioned about photos last week, BEF actually sent us pictures of the signs, so that we actually believed there were infact signs... But looks like you may have to just hold your camera out the window on the way through

First of, since everyone seems to be adding there own bit of Eflow advice, ill stick mine on

Take your front plate off. Cameras only read the front. There is no other way to get you. Unless its like a delivery truck, with a phone number, name and address on the bonnet.....but even that sounds like too much work for BEF.

You can 'doctor' your plate, but that will simply result in the letter going to some one else....they call....the agent that the reg has been altered, like turning a 1 into a 7 or an 8 into a 6. They can simply transfer it to the right reg....so thats abit pointless to be honest.

When you sell your vehicle...to a garage, MAKE SURE they send the log book of there and then. What tends to happen is the garage keep it, with your signature, waiting for a new buyer for your vehicle. In the mean time, if the garage use it, fines and tolls rack up in your name, and the car could sit in the forcourt for months, still in your name. Saves you the hassle of getting a forest worth of letters

What the other people have been saying, i agree with. Our hands were tied by BEF, if we didnt adhere to scripts, we wouldnt be in the job too long. Things like making people pay twice, and refund them any credit, whoever designed that bit....it is beyond me why.

When you pay, get the account number. Thats where all your money is going. We couldnt do searches on payment reference numbers, so its pretty usless.

The reason BEF stopped letting us waive fines, was because they lost money?? Surely they would have had to HAD the money in the first place to lose it? But it seems that they still allowed Abtran to get rid of the fines....which worked wonders for TP's popularity

Invest in one of http://www.speedflip.com/

We all only found out recently how to reset payment methods on accounts, after hundreds of complaints. Basically if your card expired...and it wasnt updated for that months bill... your account stopped working and unregistered letters came out. Even after the card was updated, still wouldnt take money out...but know we know how to do it

In all honesty, i think TP were the lab rats for Eflow. We tested it, they fixed some of the major problems, instead of explaining the system had problems....blame the call centre. Change the contract? What use will that do? Atleast TP had people with 10 months experience on Eflow, we knew what problems arose. Now theres a bunch of fresh faced agents who will be learning from the customers

Another bit of useful info - If you have an OY reg, make sure that you use the lettes O and not the number 0.

That fires the money to a totally different reg, resulting in letters and upset customers because they know they have paid. Just be wary of this at payzones!

From the Ex Eflowers post, you may realise that we are still doing our jobs, even though we dont have them anymore! We were trained to provide top notch customers service...and besides from one user, who does not represent ANY other agent. Think about it, we can all complain about Eflow, but could you ever complain about the PERSON that answered the phone?

In most cases...i hope not

As the other guys have offered, if anyone needs anything explained more, or simply wants advice from some whos hands aren't tied, PM and we will try our best to help.

And yes, NI, UK and Foreign reg's are being charged. After 8pm, its passed to different toll collector, so its not just you guys paying.

I dont know how many people log onto Boards but like we were told....89000 cars use the road a day, anyone who reads this... dont pay your toll on the i duno....say 31st of August! Eflows Birthday

If they miss even 1000 payments... how much havoc will that create? ;p

I also have another question....did ANYONE ever get a reciept sent out? There was an option to do it, but im pretty sure it was just there for show...

Cant think of anthing else right now, but im sure ill be back

Capt'n Midnight · 19-06-2009 1:07pm

Out of curiousity what happens if you make a genuine effort to pay the toll

sending a postal order or cheque to head office

if you send cash by registered letter ( legal tender in coins ) ?
or hand deliver it to their head office

or if you pay half the toll now and a cover letter detailing how you will pay the rest in installments - can they sue you for not paying the full amount ?

or over pay the toll with cash / cheque and ask for the rest back. If you don't get it then take them to the small claims court and then refuse to pay further tolls until the matter is resloved.

alternatively get everyone you know will never be near the M50 to register for video tolling, so they get sent regular statements

simples · 19-06-2009 2:37pm

Cheques and postal orders aren't an advertised method of payment, and in the centre we always recommended heavily against these. The time delay involved between sending, receiving and processing the cheque can take some time, and fines will continue to accrue while the cheque is being cleared.
If you are going to do this, make sure you date the cheque and send the letter before the 8pm deadline to cover yourself as much as possible, but I can offer no guarantees as to the outcome. I don't know if they are legally obliged to accept cheques and/or postal orders.

Sending cash in the post is always iffy, and good luck finding the head office!!

Paying in instalments also sounds dodgy, they request full payment within the deadline so not receiving this will likely mean fines are incurred.

They didn't even offer us the option of offering instalments to customers who had racked up large debts in the hundreds or thousands of euros, so for a €3 toll its highly unlikely!

If you over-pay you can request a refund of the credit which can take up to 30 days to process. Normally this is sent out as a cheque, or if you paid by your card this may also be an option.

Video registrations may be the best idea.. although I was advised that paper statements are only sent out quarterly. Registration does mean that fines aren't accrued (so long as your payments don't fail!!)

Carawaystick · 19-06-2009 4:55pm

Sponge Bob wrote: »

A 1980 act , not sure about that . It may also exclude road tolls ( even back then) from its scope but I have not checked .

The consumer protection act is a new law, 2007 I think. set up celia larkin in the consumer protection agency among other things. ..

The speed limit at the toll on westlink is 100km/h not 50 so the signs'd need to be *very* conspicuous.....

ART6 · 19-06-2009 5:11pm

Since the whole system seems to be another shambles created by a government that can't get anything right if it involves more than boiling a kettle, I wonder what would happen if everyone simply stopped paying the tolls?

*Mods, I am not daring to suggest that anyone should do that and thereby break the law. I just wonder what BEF would do*

zednanrefnomar · 19-06-2009 5:26pm

guitar wrote: »

Another bit of useful info - If you have an OY reg, make sure that you use the letter O and not the number 0.

So if the shop assistant enters 05 0Y nnnn instead of 05 OY nnnn,
zero five zero Y nnnn is not a correct format registration so there is no possibility that anyone else will get the bill in error.

And I have seen a friend's receipt where the shop assisitant left out the year of the registration and only entered the county letters and the numbers. My friend didn't realise the mistake at the time, but sure enough got a letter in the post demanding payment.

My question is, shouldn't the system recognise these incorrect format registrations and collect them in some electronic file, which could then be compared against missing payments, to match up the ones which were actually paid.

Sponge Bob · 19-06-2009 5:35pm

We use UK road design standards which require signs readable by the 85th percentile of traffic USING a road .

This means that if the limit is 100kph and if 85% of cars do 60kph ( or less) on that stretch the signs should be readable at 60kph for that 85% and the others are not important

http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/roads/tss/tsmanual/trafficsignsmanualchapter7.pdf

Page 14

2.20 The overall size of a sign is determined by the
chosen x-height. This will depend on the type of sign
and, in most cases, the 85 percentile speed of
vehicles using the road. There is a range of standard
x-heights from 15 mm (for some waiting restriction
time plates not intended to be read from moving
vehicles) to 400 mm (for motorway signs). Some signs
have specific x-heights prescribed by the Regulations.
However, many signs, particularly directional
informatory signs, have only minimum and maximum
used, but it is recommended that the main x-height
should be to the nearest 5 mm.

The table of x-heights
for directional signs in Appendix A of Local Transport
Note 1 / 94 lists the standard sizes of 50, 60, 75, 100,
125, 150, 200, 250, 300 and 400 mm. Intermediate
x-heights may be used where this would have siting
advantages (e.g. spanning a footway) without
compromising the target value and legibility of the
sign.

This affects the desired SIZE of a sign rather than the content underpinning its legality but I would think that the NRA has probably written the information at the correct size for a 50kph 85th percentile and not an 80kph 85th percentile .

Not a key argument but an extra proof of NRA negligence I would think ( on faster stretches if all the signs have the same font size

)

simples · 19-06-2009 5:35pm

zednanrefnomar wrote: »

So if the shop assistant enters 05 0Y nnnn instead of 05 OY nnnn,
zero five zero Y nnnn is not a correct format registration so there is no possibility that anyone else will get the bill in error.

And I have seen a friend's receipt where the shop assisitant left out the year of the registration and only entered the county letters and the numbers. My friend didn't realise the mistake at the time, but sure enough got a letter in the post demanding payment.

My question is, shouldn't the system recognise these incorrect format registrations and collect them in some electronic file, which could then be compared against missing payments, to match up the ones which were actually paid.

050Ynnnn (ZERO FIVE ZERO Y etc) may be a foreign number plate. The system takes whatever is entered as if it is a correct registration. Even if there was a file with erroneous registrations, what is the likelihood that amendments would be made by 8pm of the day after the journey? Slim to nil I would say!

I said before and will say again to ensure that if you make a payment in store, to ensure the shop assistant confirms the reg using phonetics where possible e.g. zero five oscar yankee one two three four. Try not to say "oh" instead of "zero" or "nought" to help avoid mistakes too.

And always always check your receipt in the store!!!
Take up any issues with the person who served you and/or their manager.

slimjimmc · 19-06-2009 6:13pm

guitar wrote: »

Take your front plate off.

guitar wrote: »

You can 'doctor' your plate,

guitar wrote: »

Invest in one of http://www.speedflip.com/

I'm sure you wouldn't be encouraging people to break the law here? I don't use the toll bridge since this barrier-free less fiasco was introduced but I believe from previous posts on Boards.ie that the Gardai regularily look out for this kind of thing around there. I'm sure the penalty, if caught commiting such offence, would be far far more severe than a €3 toll.

guitar wrote: »

When you sell your vehicle...to a garage, MAKE SURE they send the log book of there and then. What tends to happen is the garage keep it, with your signature, waiting for a new buyer for your vehicle. In the mean time, if the garage use it, fines and tolls rack up in your name, and the car could sit in the forcourt for months, still in your name. Saves you the hassle of getting a forest worth of letters

If you sell your car, to anyone private or garage, you should have documentation e.g sales receipt / change of ownership which proves when the sale took place.

guitar wrote: »

Atleast TP had people with 10 months experience on Eflow, we knew what problems arose. Now theres a bunch of fresh faced agents who will be learning from the customers

God help them, sounds like they're in for a hard time.

guitar wrote: »

From the Ex Eflowers post, you may realise that we are still doing our jobs, even though we dont have them anymore! We were trained to provide top notch customers service...and besides from one user, who does not represent ANY other agent. Think about it, we can all complain about Eflow, but could you ever complain about the PERSON that answered the phone?

In most cases...i hope not

Can't be easy to stay motivated under such cirumstances. Unfortunately you're on the receiving end because the general public don't see the distinction between E-flow and TP, in their eyes you are E-flow (which sits very well with E-flow I'm sure).

Our man in Havana · 19-06-2009 6:20pm

If you sell your car, to anyone private or garage, you should have documentation e.g sales receipt / change of ownership which proves when the sale took place.

No use unless you send the documents to Shannon yourself. Never trust a garage to do it.
Unless Shannon receive the docs all the sales receipts in the world will not save you. It is your responsibility to register a change of ownership.

slimjimmc · 19-06-2009 7:13pm

Bond-007 wrote: »

No use unless you send the documents to Shannon yourself. Never trust a garage to do it.
Unless Shannon receive the docs all the sales receipts in the world will not save you. It is your responsibility to register a change of ownership.

The change in ownership takes place long before Shannon get to register it. As seller (which was the scenario quoted by Guitar) you would have the necessary documents to prove when the actual change occurred. Such documents are sufficient evidence for the courts in traffic offences so they're good enough for E-flow imo. Responsibility for submitting the forms to Shannon is irrelevant in this context.

Of course, until Shannon actually process the change, the records will still show you (seller) as the registered owner so you'll continue to get the Eflow letters and demands (and possibly summons if you ignore them). However if you send Eflow a copy of your paperwork you won't be held liable for tolls or offenses incurred after you sold the car.

That's my take on it anyways.

simples · 19-06-2009 7:33pm

slimjimmc wrote: »

The change in ownership takes place long before Shannon get to register it. As seller (which was the scenario quoted by Guitar) you would have the necessary documents to prove when the actual change occurred. Such documents are sufficient evidence for the courts in traffic offences so they're good enough for E-flow imo. Responsibility for submitting the forms to Shannon is irrelevant in this context.

Of course, until Shannon actually process the change, the records will still show you (seller) as the registered owner so you'll continue to get the Eflow letters and demands (and possibly summons if you ignore them). However if you send Eflow a copy of your paperwork you won't be held liable for tolls or offenses incurred after you sold the car.

That's my take on it anyways.

Exactly right! While you may be the registered owner according to the Vehicle Registration Unit in Shannon, if you did not own the car at the time of the journeys then you won't have to pay for them. But you will still have the hassle of letters, phone calls, and proving the sale to take care of.

It was a frequent problem though.. people would ring up saying they sold the car 2, 3, 6 months or even a number of years previously but it was still in their name. It is the old owner's responsibility, and in their best interests, to get the car out of their name as soon as possible. If it is in your name 6 months down the line and the garage take it for a spin on the M50 for the craic or sell it on, you will be the one to get the letters.

I would echo the recommendation of getting the log book sent off immediately. Do it yourself, if possible, rather than relying on the garage.

Sinderella · 20-06-2009 1:39am

I would never be able to read and write down the eflow payment phone number while travelling at 100kph. So I was really clever and looked up the number online before I left home. Yay me!... or so I thought...
Arrived up the north, called the 1890 number to pay the toll, guess what? The number doesn't work from the north and I wasn't returning for 4 days.

According to the lovely girl on the phone, there is another number and I should've known that. So tough **** for me.
Not only do they require payment in 48hrs or less but they also require us to have full access to psychic powers. :mad:

I'm not paying the fine. Their list of inconvenient methods of payment is endless. If the road is tolled, it should be tolled because it is making my journer easier!

BTW, I was registered online but had changed my car so the reason I actually went online was to switch over my reg. But, I forgot my password and in true inconvenient eflow style, you can't request a new one unless you remember some id number or something... who knows, i can't remember! Why can't you just request it with your email address!!!? :mad:

Anyway... Thanks for all the info sponge bob and ex employees too. Great! Keep it flowing, just like the M50 traffic

Seth Brundle · 23-06-2009 1:56pm

M50 toll collectors pushing the envelope

Tuesday June 23 2009

LAWYERS acting for the authority that collects M50 tolls are being forced to use increasingly creative methods to extract the €3 charge from drivers who fail to pay.

Court summonses are being posted in fancy envelopes to ensure toll dodgers get notification that they're being prosecuted for not paying the toll on Dublin's ring road. The letters are sent by registered post, meaning the subject must sign to accept delivery. The thinking behind the ruse is that someone is more likely to accept a letter that promises a day out, than an official-looking envelope that only promises bad news.

The debt-collection industry is well-known for using creative ways to get people to accept a court summons. The National Roads Authority (NRA) confirmed that "every option" was being considered to ensure that people were made aware of their court date. Yesterday, the first of the 766 motorists who have been issued summonses for refusing to pay the M50 toll were due to appear in Dublin District Court.

Deadline

NRA spent much of the morning making arrangements to have outstanding bills of 25 people paid off.

They told Judge David Anderson that the 25 cases would be adjourned until July 27 next to allow a payment schedule to be drawn up. Of the 766 summons issued, 350 have been served. The vast majority are for motorists living in the greater Dublin area.

Motorists who choose the pay as you go option must pay a €3 toll by 8pm the day after their journey is made. If the deadline is missed, a €3 penalty is added.

If this is not paid within 14 days, €41.50 is added on. If the bill is not settled within 56 days, another €104.50 is levied.

Failure to pay results in a summons being issued.

- Paul Melia

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/m50-toll-collectors-pushing-the-envelope-1784850.html

The M50 Barrier Free Tolling Thread

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