Boxer win Irish DTT, but pull out.

Interesting but hardly surprising, let's just hope it doesn't stop/ slow the rollout of RTE's public service.

Looks like some of the transmitters that were planned for later upgrade by RTENL for FTA may get held up in this standoff

Old news. See post 249.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=58849883#post58849883

Boxer was always going to fail. It is only a matter of whether they launch at all.

They could do that Watty, but

...if Boxer hand back I expect the BCI will go to the runner up and see if they're interested. That means Onevision or Easy TV could still be in the running. Would expect RTÉ & UPC to be still interested should Boxer pull out and Onevision not be interested. For RTÉ would be full steam ahead. I expect that free-to-air launch mux launch will go ahead anyways. It can't wait and article seems to suggest that. In worst case I expect Easy TV to return.

How about lineup now. Well as HOTO (Oireachtas TV) has been shelved:

RTÉ1
RTÉ 2 archived & US programming(move kids programming to CulaDen TV (CRTE+CTG4))
RTÉ News Now (More oireachtas TV coverage)
CulaDen TV (Den TV, Cula4, 12hrs of prog looped once

3
3e
3Today (News, documentary, including Oireachtas TV coverage)

TG4 (morning programming simulcast from RnaG and RnaLife studios) or previous day Oireachtas coverage, more Oireachtas coverage)

The Irish Arts Channel (incorporating Irish Films, DCTV, Cork CTV programming, RTÉ Performing Groups, Drama, Festivals, Oireachtas TV Coverage).

Oideachas TV/Eolas TV (OU, Irish Unis and IofTech)

10 TV channels. Use to max, National Radio stations, Digital Teletexts.

CRTÉ and LTG4 to be precise-yer right lol

Regarding Kids not Irish speaking, in school they have to learn Irish so having the programming mixed up on 1 channel does make sense, mixing the Irish language Kids programming with the English language programming can get around it but Nickledoen doesn't mix with MTV. So RTÉ2 shouldn't mix with DenTV in the DTT. With analogue its about spectrum, but not with DTT. Kids have to learn Irish so CulaDen TV makes sense for them.

I meant For TV3 and RTÉ News Now like Taoiseach's Questions similar to what RTÉ News do now with just abit more coverage carrying OTV branded programming. Why not. OTV wouldn't compete with those, its a psb with no advertising.

Doing part time Eolas and Den is not maximising genre channel branding. Digital is all about genres. That's its purpose, people don't have to compromise, Kids programming for kids, RTÉ1&2 for teens and adults.

Eolas should be Eolas, Arts arts, Kids, kids programming only. What we have at the moment is a compromise due to lack of spectrum. With DTT there's no reason for it to continue.

No need for RTÉ3 as RTÉ2 with US programming like BBC3 and some archive programming timeshare. Let Eolas TV have some archive programming from RTÉ also

RTE International is for satellite and is without ads so doesn't make sense for RTE to have on DTT, wasting spectrum and screwing its ads pulling audience away from RTÉ1 & 2. RTÉ is part funded by ads remember. It costs money so ya can't go putting RTÉ Internation on DTT and screwing your funding up. If you have Freesat+DTT combo you can have it if you want, but at least no point in wasting spectrum and deliberately screwing up your funding model.

3 have a right have all its channels to be on the RTÉ mux equally as much as RTÉ unless it decides it wants to be encypted. If it does, fair play fine. Point UK broadcasters like Film4 of Channel 4 and they found more revenue generation being free-to-air. More audience so if RTÉ2 with US programming then 3e has a right there too.

The RTÉ mux is not just for RTÉ ya know. Its a free-to-air mux for Irish broadcasters. We can't afford what the BBC in the UK has with its own mux. We just don't have the revenue for that. What the public wishes for and what is economically affordable by those who have to run broadcast organisations are different. Broadcasters like RTÉ do their best to be all things to all people. But from what I've read, Digital TV will be very challenging for the likes of RTÉ, it brings more challenge than benefit.

I often feel RTÉ need to explain what they can and can't do. People can then decide if they want that model changed to no ads and they want more tax going to that and ask to be on the electric bill as a PSB obligation levy instead of TV license. At the moment RTÉ need ad revenue so can't have RTÉ International on DTT.

Scannan4 on its own does not have enough programming. That's why I suggest rejigged to wider Arts concept-and share time with Oireachtas TV as can Eolas TV. That way we get Oireachtas TV without having to give it 1 full channel. The Arts Channel allows community programming, arts programming and Films, when ya think of it all the ingredients for channel really to do well.

Agreed regarding BCI channels. But difficult on Sky Ireland as is regulated from the UK. City Channels can go on Boxer as can the UK channels and Bubble Hits but again I believe these will pay to be free-to-air as will TV3. Its a matter for TV3 which they prefer RTÉ or boxer but FTA they will be I believe.

A differing ideas...I'm sure the powers that be will decide themselves. If TV3 want to be on the RTÉ mux RTÉ will be happy to recieve the premium for carriage as coverage is 6% further than Boxer by 2013.

scath wrote: »

They could do that Watty, but

...if Boxer hand back I expect the BCI will go to the runner up and see if they're interested. That means Onevision or Easy TV could still be in the running. Would expect RTÉ & UPC to be still interested should Boxer pull out and Onevision not be interested. For RTÉ would be full steam ahead. I expect that free-to-air launch mux launch will go ahead anyways. It can't wait and article seems to suggest that. In worst case I expect Easy TV to return

UPC's parent is looking at over $790M loss and just loaned SiriusXM about $560M.

They have committed to 100% BB on the cable and HD rollout and have to change boxes for Nagra3.
RTE & UPC don't have the money now.

With the recession & Credit Crunch, if Boxer pull out, that will be it for next few years. Don't forget this licence has been on offer for nearly 9 years now.

Sorry just looked at free view CBBC etc seem to be now split between channels bit of a waste IMO when

CBBC runs until 7pm and BBC Three starts at 7pm you may as well keep both of them in the same place. Save space. Didn't they do this to begin with?

Any milkshake remains on FIVE.

I don't see the branding issues. Especially when the TV3 Group cann't even brand correctly. uHHHG.

I am actually providing more with the same space taking it that we have only got 8 channels at most on FTA service. (I could live without Nuacht TG4)

Start 06:00 14:00 18:00 00:00
1 RTE ONE RTE ONE RTE ONE RTE ONE
2 RTE EOLAS RTE EOLAS RTE TWO RTE TWO
3 TV3 TV3 TV3 TV3
4 CULA 4 CULA 4 TG4 TG4
5 Ireland's 5th Ireland's 5th Ireland's 5th Ireland's 5th
6 THE DEN THE DEN RTE THREE RTE THREE
7 Scannan 4 Scannan 4
8 RTE I RTE I RTE I RTE I
9 EuroNews Nuacht TG4 Nuacht TG4 France 24

scath wrote: »

TV3 branding isn't bad, I do think they could have turned the 6 logo into a 3 with the blue dot in the middle, add the e but its not bad.

Regarding 3e, when they apply for a terrestrial license then they have equal right to prime epg locations like cable as an indigenous broadcaster. We saw what the Sky epg did to them, lets us not do that by relegating them to the pay EPG positions.

I don't know have any digital terrestrial license applications been invited. I suspect 3e will be among the first to apply for these and that 3e's rejig will have that in mind. Whether its on the RTÉ mux is a matter for TV3 and whether they want to pay the premium for a higher EPG position and 6% more coverage area. But if it wants to it has a right as much as RTÉ.
But as part of subscription would not be good for 3e. Its best future is as free-to-air judging by lessons of Channel 4 with Film4.

Okay so I am going first comment on the branding of The TV3 Group. Dreadful. Dreadful. Dreadful. The logos both look like they could have been done by a 3 year old using MSPaint. Highly boring an unoriginal. Just look at the TG4 logo and idents alone, TG4 seem to put allot of work into their on screen presentation and marketing. The TV3 Group haven't got a clue, even look across at the beautiful on screen presentation of C4. One word AMAZING. I am sorry but the big bold 3 just represent the pure uninteresting, unoriginal banality of The TV3 Group.





AND OF COURSE



In relation the subscription aspect of The TV3 Group, 3E isn't subscription rather it is part of a wider subscription service, which Film Four where not part of. Film Four was one station that you had to pay 10euro a month for not worthwhile hence the decision to go FTA. ITV Digital was also partly responsible for the ending of subscription services from both ITV and C4.

If I where the BCI I would not give TV3 another Terrestrial License, I am sure their are much more worthwhile TV companies ready to take on that golden chalice of Free To Air TV. Remember without the their Terrestrial license TV3 would fail to make up much of the number that they get from ITV productions. TV3 could have several extra channels on UPC, Sky and Boxer, but to even thing of giving 3e a position well you may as well just go with 4 new +1 services for the current 4. IMO.

An extra space should be provided for a new commercial service for a new company to provide extra competition. TV3 should be automatically ruled out.

Minister and RTÉ decided RTÉ International won't have advertising. But I don't agree it should not and I emailed why it should.

But 2 reasons I think why they think no ads
1) Damaging to UTV's PSB model
2) Cost of running a UK ad office versus perceived interest in it.

1) I suggested a solution to this involving all broadcasters including the BBC, UTV & TV3, City Channels as an island of Ireland channel with ad breaks where in return for providing Irish made programming, during ad breaks they would get return on ad breaks and contribute towards carriage costs.

2) I think they underestimate the level of interest there would be for and island of Ireland channel made up of Irish programming. I think there would be interest among advertisers.

Are you sure it was the Minister, I thought it was RTÉ who did that. I don't see how it could damage UTV's PSB model it is a separate channel. RTÉ International should be a worldwide service for Ex-Patriots, but it could as act as a service to the wider Irish Audience. IMO.

Am in favour of a 2nd commercial broadcaster. Channel 4 I think would be interested but whether they would be allowed spent the capital needed as a PSB is the question. If they are on a 5. No doubt they'd have to pay a license to RTL for the brand. Indeed it could be a co-ownership with Five.This is where programming rights come in. Similarly TV3 acquiring UTV and a deal with ITV on joint acquisition makes similar sense.

C4 consider Irish advertising a bit of a "free-be" and to even suggest that they would take on BCI arrangements is a bit strange when they can broadcast in without and take the money without and PSB contract agreements in place. C4 is a semi-state body, just like the BBC.

Again did TG4 get a licence for the number 4? Five is an English channel if a new company wanted to call their channel C5, 5 or TV5 etc they need not get permission from foreign broadcasters who don't even have an interest in broadcasting in Ireland! Just as long has they don't us the FIVE brand they should be okay or they could not bother with a number at all, Numbers have become a bit troublesome since digital has happened IMO. look at BBC THREE AND BBC FOUR did they thing of the damage to TV3 and C4 when the used those numbers????

Some incentive should be given for it to locate in Cork so that there's a national broadcaster in each province for the benefit of graduates of media. Also a soap from Cork would certainly be good and TV3 need to work on a soap drama to provide an alternative to Fair City.

TV3 have no interest in producing an Irish soap. I am sorry but TV3 are broadcasters in the main not producers. They do need some Irish Drama alright and a soap would definitely suit their ITV productions.

Don't think TV3 would have to be paid with 3Today, because Sky News for instance carry PMQ's so if it had time why wouldn't it. Maybe OTV branding is going to far. Just that 3 isn't oriented as a channel that way, which is what 3 Today would be all about. 3 is like ITV. 3Today would be more newsy oriented.

Just for the sake of all the marketing money that TV3 have invested into their new brand (ZERO, maybe the price of a mars bar) they are The TV3 Group not 3 which as you point out may cause problems with another brand called 3 that sponsors Xpose. I believe you are giving to much to TV3 without looking at the over all land scape. I just don't think they have shown they deserve all of this type of programming. Sorry.

Nuacht TG4 not viable as a channel. Must be part of RTÉ News Now on a rotational basis ie RTÉ news bulletin, Nuacht TG4 bulletin, RTE Bulletin, Nuacht TG4 bulletin etc with Nuacht TG4 including the news that was on RTÉ plus more gaeltacht oriented stuff.

You may have pick me up wrong about the Nuacht TG4 channel. It would be an international channel filled with International news reports in different languages from different countries i.e. the channel would buy in Main Evening news from other EBU members such as BBC, TVE, France 2, SVT etc. Hourly news updates in Irish with subtitles and ISL (Irish Sign Language).

If you want kids programming to continue as is,then lets have Breakfast News of BBC1 style on RTÉ1, Eolas TV and archive programming on RTÉ2 and Kids programming and US on RTÉ3.

Yeah no need to split up channels just for the sake of marketing oh look we have 10 channel but each only go out for 12 hours at different times, really we only have 5 channels if we are lucky. :rolleyes:

In fairness you can argue against TV3 needing another channel. Points taken on children's programming.TV3 should turn 3 into 3Today and move drama over to 3e so they'll have 2 strong channels. They don't need 3 channels. They need to beef up 3e instead. There's 8 channels. Eolas and Arts timeshare. TG4 don't need more channels but they can contribute to Arts4 and Eolas. Sky Arts you forgot.Eolas and Arts are complimentary but don't thing RTÉ should get involved, TG4 are better placed to help the 3rd level sector make programming given their relationship with Independent producers.

I believe that TG4 have enough money to provide extra channels for a PSB mux. TG4 should be involved in the IFB channel as it already has contacts in the states and around Europe for the broadcast of films on TG4, the IFB could provide them with their catelogue of films as suggested for the film channel. The idea provide by James Morris (IFB Chief) that he could run the channel on 3million is a joke and a waste of space. A channel dedicated to movie buffs and film students would be of putting to the average viewer, however with the help of many of the movies bought in by TG4 these movies could get better viewing figures by providing blockbusters and art house movies that many would over look but may look at on the off chance of what they consider better movies. James Morris also suggested no advertising for the film channel, again I disagree, I thing TG4 should have a profit driven channel to provide more money to TG4, the channel should not be provided from funding for IFB or TG4 rather it should be from advertising in its entirety (TG4 spend its advertising revenue on Imports). TG4 also have a good catelogue of short movies that it could provide in addition to the IFB/European/American films.

As for the TV3 Group. Uhhg! I have lost all hope, the presentation is dreadful. And looking at the branding across all stations, TV3 looks like a poor sister to a soviet era public service broadcaster. 3Today and 3e could work but 3e would have to provide some Irish programming. Also the scheduling of 3e over the past few months also leads be to believe that the advertising agencies aren't to impressed.

pa990 wrote: »

Lets just wait and see if RTE can afford to continue the DTT roll out without Boxers money, bearing in mind that RTE has already spend money on equipment for the other Mux's and that they were expecting an income from that equipment, and until Boxer return the contract.. no money will be coming RTE's way

It has to happen regardless

pa990 wrote: »

i agree.. it has to happen.
But it might not happen as quick as was expected.

Ah sure we have waited this long

I am guessing that this is how it is going to happen without boxer (should boxer pull out)

1. Boxer pulls out in Sept 2009
2. RTÉ start digital broadcasts in Jan 2010
3. The line up is RTE ONE, RTE TWO, TV3 and TG4
4. BCI ask for expressions of interest in new Terrestrial channels in Mar 2010
5. BCI receives expressions in June
6. BCI licence channels in Sept (Including 3e, who start straight away)
7. Most plan to start up by mid 2011.

scath wrote: »

I guess its about at the end of the day if you are going to present ideas you should give those affected the courtesy of commenting on your ideas first before you send them to the person who makes the decisions.

I am going to take a wild guess as to what David McRedmond would say to my proposal: -

"In the current market it is highly important for the TV3 group to have as many spin off stations as possible, and that they should be represented on as many platforms as possible, this includes RTÉNL PSB Mux. It would not be advantagoues for 3e only to be available to pay-TV customers, that is why TV3 and 3e should be afforded the opertunity to provide 2 commercial stations on the RTÉNL mux. As you know the Channel 4 channels had great difficulty as a pay stations hence their decission to move on to FTA Digtal in the UK (Freeveiw). We veiw our Grpup's business model upon those of the UK channels sister channels hence the need for at least two channels to be FTA in Ireland. This is why we would be totally apposed to the the creation of a "5th Irish Channel", we feel as the biggest indepedent broadcaster in Ireland that has provided the Irish market with continue strong competition to the 3 PBS broadcasters in Ireland that we must continue to be strong so as to provide those not in the Pay-TV packages with continued choice.A 5th channel would only cause damage to an already fragmented audience"