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Why it is in YOUR OWN INTEREST not to strike or protest at this time (mid May 2010).

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  • 14-05-2010 11:10pm
    #1
    Business & Finance Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 32,387 Mod ✭✭✭✭


    Screw the government, they are dead at the next election. I'm out for us now and I want to explain to you why our best option right now is to sit tight and ride this out.


    But you need to understand what an "institutional speculator" is to understand. I'll do my best to keep this simple and amusing, but its important you DO understand.


    A speculator is basically a glorified gambler. But a gambler backs a horse and his horse either wins or loses. Not so for the speculators. In their world the game plays like this:

    They pick a horse (country) they dont like the look of and they bet AGAINST it. That is, they buy a sort of insurance that says "if the country goes broke, the holder is covered". Now, imagine all the countries are lined up in the starting blocks aaaaand... they're off....



    Suddenly Greece is miles behind and Ireland, Spain and Portugal are bringing up the rear too.
    Now, the speculators who bought this special kind of "insurance" against the bankruptcy of those countries, well.... they find themselves in possesion of a (suddenly) very valuable and sought after piece of paper eh??

    I mean, wouldnt you like a "get out of jail free card" if you were heavily invested in the Greek government bonds?? Sure you would!



    So the speculators sell their insurance and make a profit. (they arent stupid, they never had anything in vested in those countries in the first place, they just speculated that insurance for those countries might be very handy to someone soon.

    Greece didnt need to go bankrupt for them to win, it just had to go down the tubes a bit from where it started. The speculators guessed right that it would, bought insurance cheap when the coutnry was kinda ok and sold it when it was looking dodgy. Nice chunk of change.



    Now comes the interesting bit. The EU heads have actually done something clever. They put a big big BIG sack of money on the table in the middle of Europe and said to the markets "wherever you go to speculate, we'll prop up that government by letting them borrow money from this here big pile of dosh!".

    Well, thats death to the speculators. Firstly their money could well be tied up in insurance that isnt going to pay off as described above because the target country wont be allowed to fail and everyone knows it so the value of any insurance is eroded!


    Secondly, money invested in the stock market that doesnt return any profit is in fact making a loss because it could easily have been banked and made a few percent. Thats bad for the speculators, their bosses will see that as a LOSS.



    Thirdly the country might even benefit from access to these new funds and then its AWFUL news for the speculators the country would become MORE secure and the insurance becomes LESS valuable... now they have made the cardinal sin of actually LOSING money. Bad bad bad. No bicuit.



    So, there is significant risk of significant loss for them and the EU is standing there with a 1 trillion Euro budget ready to fight with. No institution wants to take that on. Its just too scary, they could get burned badly. Money is tight remember, even for banks!



    So we're all good then?! Protest away?? Well no. If the speculators get a single strong signal that a country is internally going nuts, then EN MASSE they will attack. One or two of them would be no problem, but like pirahna the problem is when they all attack in a group.


    What they NEED is a single kick off point, kind of like a shotgun start at a golf course, everyone gets a clear GO GO GO signal. For Greece it was the strikes which led to the IMF.

    In every trading floor room I have ever been on there were constant displays of world news, SKy News, BBC, ABC, CNN etc on LCD tvs. We do NOT want to be on those screens. Ever.



    What we need to be doing now is saying "nothing to see here, move along to someone else, we're gold".

    Going out and protesting right now is NOT going to change anything, I'm sorry but do you really think it will? Has it ever before??


    But what it will do is bring the dog-pack here en masse.

    Save your anger for the election, contact your TD and wear his ear off, but to go on the streets and riot or appear to be supporting riots is lunacy.


    If you are in the Public sector, you DO NOT WANT to see the IMF come here, they dont care about you and they arent elected so they dont care if you dont like their measures, they will simply take control of the government coffers and issue your bosses less payroll. It wont be a "cut" as such, they just simply wont pay you.

    If you are in private sector, you might think "wooo, that sounds like fun, lets f*ck the PS again. Come on IMF". You are also nuts. Reaming the PS just means a whole pile of stoppages and our country, your country, gets trashed. Good luck selling your goods, or helping your boss sell his goods when no one can move in the cities and no one has any money to spend. Some of your customers are Public Sector remember...

    So what do we do? Lie back and think of Ireland? Well, ironically, yes. We take this shafting because we have no choice, we havent had since NAMA. But we should remember this and when the time of reckoning comes (its called an election :) ) we screw these bastards to the wall.


    Right to the motherf*cking wall.



    But we dont screw ourselves. Not now... cos we are the only ones looking after us now. Think clearly, think with your heads.



    DeV.


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Comments

  • Business & Finance Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 32,387 Mod ✭✭✭✭DeVore


    oops, moved to Politics. Pol mods, I forswear any admin abilities here. If you think this is in the wrong place, or out of order, please deal with it as you normally would. I'm speaking here only as Tom Murphy.


    DeV.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,672 ✭✭✭anymore


    DeVore wrote: »
    Screw the government, they are dead at the next election. I'm out for us now and I want to explain to you why our best option right now is to sit tight and ride this out.

    <snip>

    But we dont screw ourselves. Not now... cos we are the only ones looking after us now. Think clearly, think with your heads.



    DeV.

    Whats your point ? :confused::confused:


  • Business & Finance Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 32,387 Mod ✭✭✭✭DeVore


    1. Education.

    2. Dont protest on Tuesday or support protests that are going to be hijacked by rioters.

    DeV.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 88,978 ✭✭✭✭mike65


    Is this an editorial? ;)

    Riot if you want to pay more for everything


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,160 ✭✭✭✭banshee_bones


    I think that his point is that instead of rioting now we take our righteous anger out on the government in a way that will really hurt them. Election Time.

    Oh and the IMF is baaad. Think someone has been reading a bit of Stiglitz! :pac:


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,123 ✭✭✭stepbar


    Mind you I agree with everything but I wanna know where the pot of money was borrowed from?


  • Business & Finance Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 32,387 Mod ✭✭✭✭DeVore


    Mike... its self-centred selfish worry. Someone has to worry about us cos no one else is gonna. I like your synopsis better but people need to understand WHY rioting right now is awful and self-defeating.


    Also, if you are an economist or a trader/banker, I am really really really sorry for boiling it down to that sort of simplicity I know bond trading is more complex then that but thats the essence of it as best I could explain it.


    DeV.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,570 ✭✭✭Ulysses Gaze


    Rioting will do little for the country I agree, DeVore.

    But I think you give too much credit to the Irish people. We've been raped by FF in the past, particularly the 77 Lynch cabinet that in two years increased the national debt by £2 bilion and Haughey's cabinets.....and yet they still get re-elected.

    If there is an election, FG/Lab for two years...that Govrnment will collapse and another election and then FF and the Shinners in coalition right in time for 2016 and the 100 year anniversary of the Rising.


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    Yeah, makes a lot of sense. We really need to avoid the IMF like the plague. If the came in, things would get a lot worse.


  • Business & Finance Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 32,387 Mod ✭✭✭✭DeVore


    stepbar wrote: »
    Mind you I agree with everything but I wanna know where the pot of money was borrowed from?
    Mostly Germany, France and the IMF (yes, they were leveraged for about a quarter of it).

    Some of it is promisary notes, like saying "we'll have the cash for you(EU) if you need it, but we're kinda using it right now?".

    It was gathered from the various governments (which must have been a feat) except the UK who arent too wild about propping up the Euro... mind you they still helped out through the IMF.

    Basically, its just about every spare cent that they could find down the back of every country's sofa. This was one massive shock and awe to the markets, its a huge "come and have a go if you think your hard enough" and like most bullies, it appears the speculators are moving on cos Europe looks a bit 'ard like. :)

    DeV.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,672 ✭✭✭anymore


    I think that his point is that instead of rioting now we take our righteous anger out on the government in a way that will really hurt them. Election Time.

    Oh and the IMF is baaad. Think someone has been reading a bit of Stiglitz! :pac:

    Voting the Government out may be a little satisfying, but it is like sending them to the sin bin.
    You then elect a man as taoiseach who spent twenty years holding on to a full time job as a teacher and who will be drawing a defined benefits teachers pension along with a defined benefits TDs pensiona and a defined benefits ministers oension along with a € 170,000 a year package of car and drivers for the rest of his life.
    Screw that, give me the IMF.


  • Business & Finance Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 32,387 Mod ✭✭✭✭DeVore


    Rioting will do little for the country I agree, DeVore.

    But I think you give too much credit to the Irish people. We've been raped by FF in the past, particularly the 77 Lynch cabinet that in two years increased the national debt by £2 bilion and Haughey's cabinets.....and yet they still get re-elected.

    If there is an election, FG/Lab for two years...that Govrnment will collapse and another election and then FF and the Shinners in coalition right in time for 2016 and the 100 year anniversary of the Rising.
    Cool. Ok, thats democracy and we get the government we deserve.

    What I'm saying now is lets have a country to have SOMEONE rule over. Lets have that choice cos I know I'll remember this...


    Irish people have long memories too, I dont think this is going to be let go as easy as you think... we have a lot of pain still to come, I just want to take the path of least pain for US.

    DeV.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,649 ✭✭✭Catari Jaguar


    Ok, equating it to a horse race just made this politics lark waaaaaaay more confusing. Thanks for that.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,002 ✭✭✭jimi_t2


    Absolutely brilliant and informative article. You set out to keep it simple and amusing and hit all the marks - you've a great eye for style and I must say I'm a big fan of your blog.

    I'd highly advise you to use your leverage as the founder of boards to get it as an Op piece in one the papers; indymedia at the very least.


  • Registered Users Posts: 264 ✭✭sron


    I think the Greek rioting has a nihilistic strain which wants to tear down the structure you've detailed (and why not; it's corrupt and parasitic) no matter what the cost. Irish protest is a more impotent type of rage, and probably will accomplish nothing.


  • Business & Finance Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 32,387 Mod ✭✭✭✭DeVore


    I dont use Boards for my political view any more then any other user can. Its not fair on the moderators who dont agree with me but do help run the site, so you wont see me putting this up on stickies or announcements or anything but everyone can start a thread and this is mine, like any user.


    I know, its a pain, I'd lover to blast this to everyone in a freakin popup but thats abusing my position of trust in our neutrality as a platform.


    Thank you for the kind words. If you or anyone else likes this explanation then feel free to link it up in your sig.... I'll be publishing it to my blog shortly too.

    DeV.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,655 ✭✭✭i57dwun4yb1pt8


    i like your plan :cool:
    but feel it lacks the essential gassing of all fianna fail and green party voters. ;)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,672 ✭✭✭anymore


    DaDumTish wrote: »
    i like your plan :cool:
    but feel it lacks the essential gassing of all fianna fail and green party voters. ;)

    Have you any more environmentally friendly way for the Greens ?
    Gas is a fossil fuel ! :eek:


  • Business & Finance Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 32,387 Mod ✭✭✭✭DeVore


    DaDumTish wrote: »
    i like your plan :cool:
    but feel it lacks the essential gassing of all fianna fail and green party voters. ;)
    We can do that later in the year.


    DeV.


  • Business & Finance Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 32,387 Mod ✭✭✭✭DeVore


    sron wrote: »
    I think the Greek rioting has a nihilistic strain which wants to tear down the structure you've detailed (and why not; it's corrupt and parasitic) no matter what the cost. Irish protest is a more impotent type of rage, and probably will accomplish nothing.
    The greeks have achieved nothing either, except to hand their finances over to the IMF by proxy.


    Oh, and immeasurably lengthen the recovery period for themselves.





    And kill three people.


    DeV.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 12,500 ✭✭✭✭Sand


    Greece didnt need to go bankrupt for them to win, it just had to go down the tubes a bit from where it started. The speculators guessed right that it would, bought insurance cheap when the coutnry was kinda ok and sold it when it was looking dodgy. Nice chunk of change.



    Now comes the interesting bit. The EU heads have actually done something clever. They put a big big BIG sack of money on the table in the middle of Europe and said to the markets "wherever you go to speculate, we'll prop up that government by letting them borrow money from this here big pile of dosh!".

    An alternative perspective.

    The speculators can only get a payoff if Greece is unable to service and roll over its debt, or if it appears increasingly likely based on available information that Greece is unable to service and roll over its debt.

    So long as Greece is well run fiscally, the speculators lose. No special assistance required. They only win because Greece looks like a basket case. And eventually the old age truth applies - if it looks like a duck, it walks like a duck and it quacks like a duck...it is a duck. Investors are rightly concerned that they will never see their money back from the Greeks.

    At its base, this is not a liquidity crisis. Its an insolvency crisis. Greece cannot repay its debt. It is unable to generate the economic growth to repay its debt. A restructuring of debt beckons, hence the demand for insurance, hence the speculators payoff. If the Greeks had a credible plan for servicing their debt, reduced demand for insurance.

    The EU has put down a big pot of money. This will allow the Greeks to pay off its bond holders as those bonds come due and roll over their debt. But this doesnt make the debt dissapear, it simply changes who the money is owed to. And it doesnt change the underlying reality that the Greeks cant repay the debt. And it increases the exposure of other Eurozone states to the Greek crisis.

    The debt, and the loss is still there. All that has been purchased is time, and an even bigger reckoning a year or two down the line. And this time, the losses on the Greeks default will be suffered not by the investors who lent to them, but instead to the taxpayers of the other EU states who will have to pick up the tab. Thats even if the political will can be found to implement the reforms in Greece (debateable), the political will for the richer states to stick to their guns (debateable) or what the EU will do if the Greeks refuse to implement their reforms - remove the funds and return to square one? How long will the Germans put up with inflationary policies of the ECB? What happens if Atlas shrugs and they return to the DM? Germany is one of the few countries in the Euro that could leave the Euro on good terms.

    If you want to ward off investor speculation you simply need credible policies. You tack against the wind, not headfirst into it. The fiscal policies of the Greeks, the PIIGS and to a wider extent the EU have been incredible. Hence speculators taking bets against them actually succeeding.

    Politicians have time and time again tried to stare down the market shouting "You shall not pass!". Their victories are celebrated in myth and legend, their failures as in the breakdown of the ERM back in the early 90s despite every leader swearing blind theyd fight tooth and nail to maintain it are slightly more common though.

    The banks might not have a lot of money, but the EU states arent exactly debt free. If anything the banks will be in a better position after this bailout - they will be able to cash out of Greece and leave some other poor eejits to absorp the losses when the Greeks run out of road.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,002 ✭✭✭jimi_t2


    DeVore wrote: »
    I dont use Boards for my political view...

    I applaud you on your integrity and it pretty much sums up this whole fiasco;

    The genuine humanatarians and socialists, the people who maintain an appropriate sense of outrage and have a moral conscience.

    The people who see that the world is not right and endevour to rectify this through nothing but their own sense of decency.

    The people who day after day, week after week, do their best to attempt to educate those worst affected about their position and how to alleviate it through a sense of duty to their common man.

    These are the people who refuse to stoop to the level of FF.

    This is why no improvement on this fiasco can be made in any direct way.


    Dev, while I completely understand your feelings on using a community portal as a political soapbox, for better or worse, I do believe that your name carries a considerable cachet.

    Similarly, I believe you can trade on your name given your work in setting up this site without infringing upon your sense of moral conscience or integrity, nor impinging upon your sense of neutrality.

    There's two brands at play here - that of ''Dev'' and that of ''boards.ie''.

    OP pieces are all about getting people from diverse walks of life to give their views on events. People would be genuinely interested in the views of the creator of the largest online discussion board in Ireland without attributing such views to the site itself.

    But hey, this is just my 2c and I'm sure you've given it considerable thought yourself.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,002 ✭✭✭jimi_t2


    If you want to ward off investor speculation you simply need credible policies. You tack against the wind, not headfirst into it. The fiscal policies of the Greeks, the PIIGS and to a wider extent the EU have been incredible. Hence speculators taking bets against them actually succeeding.

    QFT. The speculators themselves are only using an abused system. They didn't set the status quo and, while profiting, serve to ensure that the original investors don't end up going tits up.


  • Business & Finance Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 32,387 Mod ✭✭✭✭DeVore


    If anyone wanted to republish this they have my permission, I only ask they do so in full and unedited with credit.

    I dunno if anyone would care what I think, I'm not sure why they would but this is something I feel really strongly about. I want to f*ck those politicians soooo badly, I hate what they have done but pick your targets, know your enemy and bide your time.

    Now is not that time.

    DeV.


  • Business & Finance Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 32,387 Mod ✭✭✭✭DeVore


    jimi_t2 wrote: »
    QFT. The speculators themselves are only using an abused system. They didn't set the status quo and, while profiting, serve to ensure that the original investors don't end up going tits up.
    Yes and that needs fixing, world wide.


    Head down Ireland, this isnt your problem to fix. Nothing to see here.


    DeV.


  • Business & Finance Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 32,387 Mod ✭✭✭✭DeVore


    Sand you CAN stare down the market, but its a case of nerve and "seizing the nettle". Too little and the speculators over run the rescue fund and its more trouble but 1 trillion dollars solely to counteract speculators??


    No speculator is going to face that alone. And they dont really talk to each other much either, kinda tips your hand if you tell everyone what you are going to do and when. But they, like hyena's are circling knowing they could probably take the lion in the middle but scared to be the first to break.


    This is poker on a massive scale and we're all in.


    DeV.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,305 ✭✭✭yoshytoshy


    Nice one Devore for that laymans briefing;).

    I didn't get the impression people took the rioting seriously at the dail. But after reading the thread here ,it's something to take very serious.


  • Business & Finance Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 32,387 Mod ✭✭✭✭DeVore


    So long as Greece is well run fiscally, the speculators lose. No special assistance required. They only win because Greece looks like a basket case. And eventually the old age truth applies - if it looks like a duck, it walks like a duck and it quacks like a duck...it is a duck. Investors are rightly concerned that they will never see their money back from the Greeks.

    No, slightly incorrect. If it looks like a duck and it quacks like a duck you can probably convince other people that its a duck EVEN IF YOU KNOW ITS NOT.

    The debt will become centralised to the EU governments, its true. But thats better then in the hands of the institutions who would quite simply follow market forces and demand payment etc.

    With the debt being to other EU governments, there is a strong incentive for them to ease back on crushing interest rates and demands for repayment. That buys Greece time.


    Time for the IMF to do its work. The Greek government lacked the gumption to take its medicine cos like most medicine it tasted bad. Plus the greek people said "we dont deserve this, its not fair". ITS JUST AS 'NOT FAIR' HERE TOO. FAIR DOESNT MATTER RIGHT NOW.

    As a result Greece is now getting a medicine-enema whether they like it or not. They will be forced into compliance. We took our medicine early, we probably need more but the fact is we are taking care of our business. Nothing to see here.


    DeV.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 583 ✭✭✭danman


    Excellant OP.

    I've tried to convey similar feelings about protests in other threads, but not as well thought out.

    Head down, arse to the wind... As my father used to say.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,376 ✭✭✭ei.sdraob


    good post :)
    DeVore wrote: »
    If you are in private sector, you might think "wooo, that sounds like fun, lets f*ck the PS again. Come on IMF". You are also nuts. Reaming the PS just means a whole pile of stoppages and our country, your country, gets trashed. Good luck selling your goods, or helping your boss sell his goods when no one can move in the cities and no one has any money to spend. Some of your customers are Public Sector remember...

    if you are in the export sector then NONE of your customers are in the public sector...

    the private sector can be subdivided into two
    * exports to outside the economy
    * services within the economy

    dont forget the above @dev


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