Ukraine: As it happens.

bear1 · 18-02-2014 11:30pm

Corvo wrote: »

Why does the OP have a red card?

I'd imagine it would be from the way the thread was started

Dozen Wicked Words · 18-02-2014 11:34pm

BBC reporting at least 13 dead including 6 police men, would imagine it's a lot more than that now, looks horrific on tv.

Goodness only knows how it could develop. Civil war? Russian intervention? Scary times over there, to think it was a picture of peace when the euros were on.

Cool_CM · 18-02-2014 11:39pm

Corvo wrote: »

Why does the OP have a red card?

Click on it:

"You've been told twice already about dumping news in this forum. Next time it's a ban. If you don't have anything to add to the discussion, don't post."

Dozen Wicked Words wrote: »

BBC reporting at least 13 dead including 6 police men, would imagine it's a lot more than that now, looks horrific on tv.

Interior Ministry are claiming that all 6 police officers were shot dead.

bear1 · 18-02-2014 11:40pm

Dozen Wicked Words wrote: »

BBC reporting at least 13 dead including 6 police men, would imagine it's a lot more than that now, looks horrific on tv.

Goodness only knows how it could develop. Civil war? Russian intervention? Scary times over there, to think it was a picture of peace when the euros were on.

Do you mean in a military fashion? I would seriously doubt Russia would do that tbh..
Practically invading another country

Indestructable · 18-02-2014 11:41pm

Turchinov, one of the opposition leaders have been gunned down by a sniper while standing on main stage. Insane. This according to an unverified tweet. However: Interfax confirms that Turchinov is injured and is being attended to by medics. This appears to confirm that he has been shot. This is a developing story.

enfant terrible · 18-02-2014 11:56pm

Turner wrote: »

Footage of the crowd attacking a lone police officer, knocking him unconscious and dragging his lifeless body away from police and into the crowd.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=fec_1392732158

I presume he is the police officer who was murdered today.

Its time the Ukrainian government put a stop to this, no police force or armed forces would stand for that.

Need to shoot more civilians ya?

Jonny7 · 18-02-2014 11:57pm

Charles Rocher wrote: »

Now go back to your innocence theories and polish those Washington consensus cartoon spectacles you view the world through.

10 years ago I was arguably more rabidly anti-US than yourself (almost) - of course I would say I had better reason to be - Nuland is peanuts compared to Rove, Wolfowitz, Rumsfeld, Bolton

Impartiality and objectivity fly out the window and every international situation becomes another excuse to rant about a exaggerated Chomsky-esque agenda neatly orchestrated from Washington..

e.g. the situation in Ukraine, subject to standard intl. real politik is suddenly a hawkish plan from capitol hill to usurp Yanukovych or whatever drivel I'm reading in this thread

I digress

The press group in Ukraine says 21 of it's reporters have been attacked and beaten today, mainly by security forces or indirectly

I wouldn't be surprised to see the army get involved at this stage

enfant terrible · 18-02-2014 11:59pm

bear1 wrote: »

Don't be a muppet. The US has nothing to do with it.
Have you ever been to the Ukraine? I have and the differences between the people who live in the West and those that live in the East showed me exactly how split of a nation it is.

Don't you know all the problems in the world are America's fault.

enfant terrible · 19-02-2014 12:02am

Charles Rocher wrote: »

Lol, honestly? You innocence theorists really are a joke of a bunch - far more duped and more dangerous than any conspiracy theorists.

The US and west has been spending millions on supporting the section of Ukrainian society that looks to the west/EU and that's just what we know about because they are unashamed about it.

Now imagine if the Germans and French were spending millions on supporting independence parties in Texas and California... how do you think Washington would react?

Does Ukraine belong to Russia?

Jonny7 · 19-02-2014 12:02am

bear1 wrote: »

As I said before, this is in my opinion. I don't believe the US is trying to cause a revolution in Ukraine.. Again this is my opinion.
As I wrote before, I've been to Ukraine numerous times and I've spoken to people about their attitudes and it's quite clear that the western part of Ukraine prefers Europe and the East with Russia.
They only needed the final straw for this all to blow up.
The trade deal was that straw.

Pretty much, the two Ukrainians I work with are from Kiev and said exactly the same, the country is very split, they knew that the trade agreement was the powder keg

Dyr · 19-02-2014 12:04am

Jonny7 wrote: »

10 years ago I was arguably more rabidly anti-US than yourself (almost) - of course I would say I had better reason to be - Nuland is peanuts compared to Rove, Wolfowitz, Rumsfeld, Bolton

Impartiality and objectivity fly out the window and every international situation becomes another excuse to rant about a exaggerated Chomsky-esque agenda neatly orchestrated from Washington..

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/02/07/us-usa-ukraine-tape-idUSBREA1601G20140207

You were saying?

enfant terrible · 19-02-2014 12:07am

Bambi wrote: »

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/02/07/us-usa-ukraine-tape-idUSBREA1601G20140207

You were saying?

American influencing Ukrainian politics, shocking stuff.

You any links of Russia trying to do the same?

Cool_CM · 19-02-2014 12:10am

Indestructable wrote: »

Turchinov, one of the opposition leaders have been gunned down by a sniper while standing on main stage. Insane. This according to an unverified tweet. However: Interfax confirms that Turchinov is injured and is being attended to by medics. This appears to confirm that he has been shot. This is a developing story.

Hit in the by shrapnel but is ok.

enfant terrible wrote: »

American influencing Ukrainian politics, shocking stuff.

You any links of Russia trying to do the same?

They generally just switch off the gas supply.

Lou.m · 19-02-2014 12:13am

Charles Rocher wrote: »

It's definitely part of the game but there's a deeper multi-layered game being played out imo.

When you say 'the West' there what you mean is Washington and when you say Washington what is being talked about are those war-mongering chicken-hawk, neocon wasters like Jane Nuland and they care very much about how important Ukraine is to Russia.

What is more is that these neocon losers don't give a fuck about the Europe that doesn't kow-tow to Washington (**** the E.U.) i.e. what was called 'old Europe' by that other loser Donald Rumsfeld, the Europe that objected to the US invasion of Iraq in 2003 (Germany, France and others).

So, Ukraine under the wing of NATO, with Washington's stooges in place, would serve two great strategic purposes, it wrenches Ukraine from the Russians and the keeps it from becoming an extension of 'old Europe' under the auspices of Germany/France and other European states that don't roll over when commanded by Washington's neocons.

Cripes well now

When you say 'the West' there what you mean is Washington and when you say Washington what is being talked about are those war-mongering chicken-hawk, neocon wasters like Jane Nuland and they care very much about how important Ukraine is to Russia.

Please don't tell me what I mean.

I agree that the US would like to see countries like Poland and the Ukraine under more of a US influence than an EU one. I do think the US would use Ukriane against Russia more than the EU might. Germany has been less emphatic about sanctions against Ukraine. But that does not mean the EU has not played a part in this. They woefully underestimated how much Tynoshenko was hated by her opposition.

The truth is we don't understand the divide between the Ukrainians and I don't think they understand each other anymore either.

Western Ukraine is more nationalist and has negative views on things like the Russian language whereas it is dominant in the West. They are divided by a language and that is pretty important culturally. They have different views and attitudes.

The south and the east speak mostly Russian and the rest speaks Ukrainian. The East and South had lowest support for independence.

Central , North and west are much more nationalistic and independence driven. Language can make a nation within a nation.

19-02-2014 12:17am

Hopefully the protestors can hold out and defend themselves.

The sooner a peaceful outcome is achieved the better.

But there's a part of me that loves the idea of people in the 21st Century willing to defend their political beliefs with force and vigour.

Wish we in Ireland could have the b*lls to at least make a statement and shake the crony political class, but sadly we're too cynical/apathetic/spineless/lazy/afraid-to-be-associated-with-shinners.

wazky · 19-02-2014 12:18am

Deleted User wrote: »

Wish we in Ireland could have the b*lls to at least make a statement and shake the crony political class, but sadly we're too cynical/apathetic/spineless/lazy/afraid-to-be-associated-with-shinners.

Who's stopping you?

Jonny7 · 19-02-2014 12:19am

Bambi wrote: »

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/02/07/us-usa-ukraine-tape-idUSBREA1601G20140207

You were saying?

This happened two weeks ago if you weren't aware

and my post reads "the situation in Ukraine, subject to standard intl. real politik"

It shouldn't be any less candid or worse than the EU or Russian diplomatic comms - none of which are meant for the public arena

user2011 · 19-02-2014 12:19am

APC showered with Molotov's

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=4e3_1392754077

Lou.m · 19-02-2014 12:21am

The problem is a lack of union amongst Ukrainians against outside influences.

Ukrainians would take an outside countries stance over people from the other side of the country because they speak the same language etc.

There civil servants are divided as is their army

KIEV — Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovych is unlikely to move the army against protesters despite opposition warnings about an imminent intervention — mainly because the loyalty of rank-and-file soldiers could be in doubt, analysts said.

“The core of the army is made up of young people who grew up in an independent Ukraine,” said Valentyn Badrak, director of the Research Centre for the Army, Demilitarisation and Disarmament in Kiev.

“They are members of a younger generation that feels very close to the aspirations of the Maidan,” or Independence Square in the center of Kiev, the epicenter of Ukraine’s protest movement, Badrak told AFP.

“The high command is made up mostly of officers and generals who grew up in Soviet times and they have a certain discipline, they are ready to obey any order,” he said.

But lower ranks “feel the financial and social difficulties” in Ukraine, he said.

When a people cannot unite or cannot conquer themselves they rip themselves apart.

In fact “the military is divided,” he said.

The Ukrainian military’s chief-of-staff, General Volodymyr Zamana, struck a more conciliatory tone on Saturday saying that “no one has the right to use the armed forces to limit the rights of citizens.”

Grytsenko also said that a telegram has been going round army units asking them to pledge loyalty to Yanukovych.

“I know that despite the difficulty of the situation there are honest officers in the armed forces who are not signing it.

“I also know of some cases in which the high command is sacking them.”

What are these sacked soldiers going to do who will they support ??

househero · 19-02-2014 12:23am

Is this all the Putin plan? to destabilise the EU?

Lou.m · 19-02-2014 12:24am

#‎euromaidan‬ is apparently a good way to follow this on Twitter.

19-02-2014 12:29am

wazky wrote: »

Who's stopping you?

I said I wish "We" as in plural.

I just don't have the charisma to be able to mobilise the country in a protest movement. Not a powerful enough personality, and don't have any friends

Karl Stein · 19-02-2014 12:29am

enfant terrible wrote: »

Does Ukraine belong to Russia?

No more than Canada belongs to the US I guess.

enfant terrible wrote: »

You any links of Russia trying to do the same?

You'll notice that Russia has a one and a half thousand mile long border with Ukraine with lots of gleaming pipelines supplying gas to Europe and big factories supplying industrial machinery to Russia so, naturally, Russia does have a strategic interest in Ukraine.

Can you imagine how Washington would react if the Chinese or Russians were funding 'unfriendly' political parties in Canada?

Lou.m · 19-02-2014 12:31am

Deleted User wrote: »

I said I wish "We" as in plural.

I just don't have the charisma to be able to mobilise the country in a protest movement. Not a powerful enough personality, and don't have any friends

You want THIS ????

You want them bringing in the army and a radical opposition calling for violence the country town apart over which side to take rather than a political solution???????

Do me a favor.

Lou.m · 19-02-2014 12:35am

There have been reports of some of the armed authorities wearing the Russian flag etc and other Russian symbols on their Uniforms.

There are also photos online of it ...obviously they could be doctored and Photoshopped.

enfant terrible · 19-02-2014 12:37am

Charles Rocher wrote: »

No more than Canada belongs to the US I guess.

You'll notice that Russia has a one and a half thousand mile long border with Ukraine with lots of gleaming pipelines supplying gas to Europe and big factories supplying industrial machinery to Russia so, naturally, Russia does have a strategic interest in Ukraine.

Can you imagine how Washington would react if the Chinese or Russians were funding 'unfriendly' political parties in Canada?

I don't think the Ukrainian people care how long their border is with Russia.

They can decide their own destiny, even if Putin disagrees.

Lou.m · 19-02-2014 12:43am

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10152594988664692&set=vb.817914691&type=2&theater

Some Georgians on the streets are showing support for the protestors. This has more sides than US and Russia i think.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2522175/Fight-breaks-Georgian-parliament-plans-support-Ukrainian-opposition.html

Yet I think their govt is divided.

http://tvnwarszawa.tvn24.pl/informacje,news,lzy-i-modlitwa-przed-ambasada-ukrainy,114181.html

Poland showing support for the protestors against Russia too.

Can any of our Polish community in Ireland say what the general feeling is there?

renegademaster · 19-02-2014 12:46am

househero wrote: »

Is this all the Putin plan? to destabilise the EU?

no, it's american led and they're loving it, couldn't be going better for them i reckon

bear1 · 19-02-2014 12:50am

Jonny7 wrote: »

Pretty much, the two Ukrainians I work with are from Kiev and said exactly the same, the country is very split, they knew that the trade agreement was the powder keg

It's unbelievable as well how culturally different it is say from Lviv (near Poland) and Kiev.
The East speaks Russian and the West speaks Ukrainian.
In Lviv for example when we were going to a pub, we needed to receit a Ukrainian proverb in Ukrainian (not bloody easy at all) as no Russian was allowed in the pub.
So I'm not surprised how the West wants to go... well West and the East to the East.
Pity that blood needs to be spilt because of it though.

MonaPizza · 19-02-2014 12:52am

Weathercheck wrote: »

Emergency message US Embassy Kiev to Americans: Remain indoors. Ukrainian Security "may take extraordinary measures"

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26244542

And it's the US who are destabilizing the place and fomenting the unrest in the first place

Ukraine: As it happens.

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