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Malaysia Airlines plane shot down in Ukraine near Russian border[Mod warning post#193

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    #632
    Tenger
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 9,735 Mod ✭✭✭✭Tenger


    Nimr wrote: »
    Tenger, could we have an updates thread like MH370?

    There isn't much to discuss on this right now and it's awfully upsetting having to read page after bickering page of this thread(or AH for that matter) to stay updated on the incident.
    I see your thinking. However this incident differs from MH370 in that we are swamped with so much info. The MH370 discussion/update only split was due to the lack of facts emerging.

    Over the last 48 hours we have moved beyond the media speculation/frenzy in relation to MH17. We are now getting reliable updates on the site, the recovered FDR/CVR, the 200+ remains and the international investigation. Therefore I do not see the need for a separate "Update only" thread.

    As for the bickering.....in 12 hours I will delete all non topical post from the last 20-ish pages..this will be done for housekeeping rather than Mod warning purposes.
    eatmyshorts wrote: »
    This series of posts demonstrates just how this type of thread should be proceeding.
    To me, all the technical posts about bytes and bits and data words is bewildering. Goes right over my head, but then that's why I'll defer to you guys for this stuff....
    I can't figure out if they are derailing the thread, insulting each other or insulting me!!


    Seriously though I fully agree. On topic discussion of the aviation aspect of this tragedy is welcomed.


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    #633
    Reoil
    Registered Users Posts: 1,126 ✭✭✭Reoil


    eatmyshorts wrote: »
    I'm even surprised by the low amount of memory.
    36MB for flight data
    80MB for audio

    That's about a CD (80mins?) at CD-level quality. There's no way these recordings are at CD quality, so you can double that 80mins at least.

    As for the flight data, bear in mind the entire bible can fit in 2Mb...


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    #634
    MuffinsDa
    Registered Users Posts: 1,225 ✭✭✭MuffinsDa


    Reoil wrote: »
    That's about a CD (80mins?) at CD-level quality. There's no way these recordings are at CD quality, so you can double that 80mins at least.

    As for the flight data, bear in mind the entire bible can fit in 2Mb...

    A standard CD is around 650MB and 74 Mins, so your numbers above are way off the mark.

    I assume the recording quality and sample rate is fairly low so probably they can fit quite a bit in that 80MB.


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    #635
    jamo2oo9
    Registered Users Posts: 5,780 ✭✭✭jamo2oo9


    MuffinsDa wrote: »
    A standard CD is around 650MB and 74 Mins, so your numbers above are way off the mark.

    I assume the recording quality and sample rate is fairly low so probably they can fit quite a bit in that 80MB.

    I have blank CDs that are 4.7GB/120mins. I would imagine they would go for higher disk space to give a better recording element


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    #636
    MuffinsDa
    Registered Users Posts: 1,225 ✭✭✭MuffinsDa


    jamo2oo9 wrote: »
    I have blank CDs that are 4.7GB/120mins.

    Those are DVDs.

    This is all really irrelevant anyway, there wouldn't be anything like that on flight recorders.


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    #637
    Tenger
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 9,735 Mod ✭✭✭✭Tenger


    Right gang.

    I have wasted over 2 hours of my life deleting dozens of posts. It was 51 pages long when I started.

    I may have missed a few but the aim was to slim down and tidy up the thread. I started at page 30.

    I don't want any posters to take offence at the deletions. It was not meant to warn or target individuals. I was aiming to tidy up. I did leave some posts in as examples of the posts we do not want.

    Hope it helps and lets try to keep on the matter of MH17.


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    #638
    Thrill
    Registered Users Posts: 5,485 ✭✭✭Thrill


    Dutch Safety Board: No evidence that MH17 Flight Data Recorder was manipulated.

    Dutch Safety Board: Data was successfully downloaded from the MH17 Flight Data Recorder. Now being analyzed.


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    #639
    who_me
    Registered Users Posts: 3,669 ✭✭✭who_me


    MuffinsDa wrote: »
    A standard CD is around 650MB and 74 Mins, so your numbers above are way off the mark.

    I assume the recording quality and sample rate is fairly low so probably they can fit quite a bit in that 80MB.

    I wonder how low the quality could be - I've heard claims that it's possible to identify a type of explosion based on it being recorded on the cockpit voice recorders! That seems very unlikely if its on highly compressed low-bitrate audio recordings; 80MB really is very little for that.

    Does it store all the audio for the flight? Perhaps it just overwrites old data as the flight progresses - making the assumption the most pertinent data will be towards the end.


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    #640
    Five Lamps
    Closed Accounts Posts: 687 ✭✭✭Five Lamps


    who_me wrote: »
    I wonder how low the quality could be - I've heard claims that it's possible to identify a type of explosion based on it being recorded on the cockpit voice recorders! That seems very unlikely if its on highly compressed low-bitrate audio recordings; 80MB really is very little for that.

    Does it store all the audio for the flight? Perhaps it just overwrites old data as the flight progresses - making the assumption the most pertinent data will be towards the end.

    Primary purpose is to record the voice conversations and a low bit rate is fine for this.

    From watching many episodes of Air Crash Confidential, it seems that experts analysing recordings of older boxes were able to interpret engine noises in the background. I'd imagine that even though that the data storage may be low that modern compression and audio circuitry would make a small amount of storage go a long way both in duration and fidelity.

    AFAIK, most recorders overwrite after a period of time (2hrs?).


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    #641
    smurfjed
    Registered Users Posts: 10,051 ✭✭✭✭smurfjed


    AFAIK, most recorders overwrite after a period of time (2hrs?).
    There is an issue between the need to know what happened and the crews right to privacy, initial CVR's were based on a 30 minutes tape just like your old style cassette. Solid state recorders could hold more, but the regulations only require 2 hours.


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    #642
    Popoutman
    Registered Users Posts: 1,363 ✭✭✭Popoutman


    Regarding storage - the fidelity of the sound, and lack of loss of details is more important than the storage space problem.

    Lossless compression could be used, but it would only maybe get x2 as much data. When working with a 6khz sample rate in mono compared with a ~40khz samplerate with stereo (needed for correct human ear capability reproduction) it's not a lot of data to store. Storage space isn't an issue, but the less manipulation that the sound goes through before storage the better, and the less risk of corruption or other issues with the sound stream.

    Using a lossy compression algorithm would be a very poor choice for the CVR as relevant details in the sound will be lost. After all the .mp3 algorithms throw away 80% of the detail in the sound, making it near-impossible to extract the "hidden" sound details from the recordings, when those hidden details could be the most relevant to any investigations.


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    #643
    Edsonbarboza
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 69 ✭✭Edsonbarboza


    Pardon my ignorance Dont know if this is the right thread to ask,but how are the flight recorders saved on impact what are they made from,a fall from 30,000ft plus is some drop,is it the same material in this boeing as an Airbus?


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    #644
    Jack1985
    Registered Users Posts: 2,497 ✭✭✭Jack1985


    Edsonbarboza wrote: »
    Pardon my ignorance Dont know if this is the right thread to ask,but how are the flight recorders saved on impact what are they made from,a fall from 30,000ft plus is some drop,is it the same material in this boeing as an Airbus?

    Lot's of info here, and it's a private company make them can't remember the name (I think Honeywell) but they supply to Airbus/Boeing and other aviation companies. So even though the aircraft/manufacturer might be different in 99% of cases they'll have the same CVR/FDR.

    http://www.iasa.com.au/folders/Safety_Issues/dfdr-cvr/howblackboxworks-1.html


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    #645
    triggermortis
    Registered Users Posts: 2,684 ✭✭✭triggermortis


    FDR and CVR are made by a seperate company and used in Airbus and Boeing (and other) aircraft.
    They are made as destruction/water/fire - proof as possible and painted orange even though they are known as black boxes


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    #646
    smurfjed
    Registered Users Posts: 10,051 ✭✭✭✭smurfjed


    http://aerospace.honeywell.com/products/information-and-maintenance-management/flight-recorders

    Made by Honeywell USA.


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    #647
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,297 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    From AP......


    WHAT HAPPENED? THE DAY FLIGHT 17 WAS DOWNED
    A highly placed rebel, speaking to the AP this week, admitted that rebels were responsible. He said a unit based in the hometown of ousted President Viktor Yanukovych, made up of both Russians and Ukrainians, was involved in the firing of an SA-11 from near Snizhne. The rebel, who has direct access to the inner circle of the insurgent leadership in Donetsk, said that he could not be named because he was contradicting the rebels' official line.

    The rebels believed they were targeting a Ukrainian military plane, this person said. Instead, they hit the passenger jet flying from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur. All 298 people aboard were killed.

    Intercepted phone conversations released by the Ukrainian government appear to back up the contention they were unaware the aircraft was a passenger jet.

    In those tapes, the first rebels to reach the scene can be heard swearing when they see the number of bodies and the insignia of Malaysia Airlines.


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    #648
    folbotcar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 472 ✭✭folbotcar


    Looking at the photo of the shrapnel damage to the flight deck area it's clear the pilots would have been killed instantly. As such the voice recorder will probably yield little information other than recording the moment of impact.

    In this incident I doubt if there's either the CVR or FDR will prove anything other than everything was routine up to the moment of impact.

    In any case we all know the cause of this crash. It was shot down by a missile fired by Russians.

    The exact circumstances of the firing of this missile will the most difficult thing to investigate. Given the deliberate and shameful attempt by Russia to try and deflect the blame from where it lies. All they really have to say is that it was an accident. We're sorry!

    But apparently sorry isn't in the Russian vocabulary.

    That's the real story of this tragedy. The blatant cover up by Russia.


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    #649
    keith16
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,061 ✭✭✭keith16


    folbotcar wrote: »
    Looking at the photo of the shrapnel damage to the flight deck area it's clear the pilots would have been killed instantly. As such the voice recorder will probably yield little information other than recording the moment of impact.

    In this incident I doubt if there's either the CVR or FDR will prove anything other than everything was routine up to the moment of impact.

    In any case we all know the cause of this crash. It was shot down by a missile fired by Russians.

    The exact circumstances of the firing of this missile will the most difficult thing to investigate. Given the deliberate and shameful attempt by Russia to try and deflect the blame from where it lies. All they really have to say is that it was an accident. We're sorry!

    But apparently sorry isn't in the Russian vocabulary.

    That's the real story of this tragedy. The blatant cover up by Russia.

    It also shows how toothless the EU really is. Where did you see the photo of the cockpit by the way? I've been trying to avoid photos in case I come across anything upsetting. Link would be good, but only if it shows the aircraft parts alone.


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    #650
    smurfjed
    Registered Users Posts: 10,051 ✭✭✭✭smurfjed


    In any case we all know the cause of this crash. It was shot down by a missile fired by Russians.
    Was out flying all day so missed the news, when did the proof that it was shot down by the Russians come from?

    Last that i knew was that it was shot down by a missile that was most likely built in Russia, but as to who fired it, I doubt very much that it was a Russian finger, or even a Russian instruction.


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    #651
    Jack1985
    Registered Users Posts: 2,497 ✭✭✭Jack1985


    Here's some images - The majority of the cockpit was found 7km away from the wreckage in Grabavo, suggesting the nose broke away along with the jumpseats of CC aft of Door 1L; You can be sure I think the flight deck crew were almost immediately killed following the shrapnel blast.

    Image of possible direction of the shrapnel blast:
    https://twitter.com/noclador/status/491196380179079168

    Remnants of the flight deck:
    https://twitter.com/nazaninemoshiri/status/490751692795686912
    https://twitter.com/bishopk/status/490526613344620544
    https://twitter.com/szymek_o/status/490789106642071552
    https://twitter.com/bishopk/status/490448511855771648

    Aircraft Technical log:
    https://twitter.com/bishopk/status/490459904608845824


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    #652
    Tenger
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 9,735 Mod ✭✭✭✭Tenger


    lisar816 wrote: »
    Why have family members been allowed on the crash site? Surely that should not be allowed happen until all the wreckage has been taking away,

    Considering the way there family members have been treated at the scene, a scene which is being treated the complete opposite way to any other crash scene I see no reason why they shouldn't be there. If a family relative of yours was bombed out of the sky nearly two weeks ago, you're told we may only find a limb and we haven't received all the bodies and to know your relative could be lying there in a field, what would your reaction be? It's a ridiculous situation - There should of been a taskforce of some sort sent in the day after to secure the scene.


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    #653
    Red Nissan
    Registered Users Posts: 3,055 ✭✭✭Red Nissan


    Edsonbarboza wrote: »
    Pardon my ignorance Dont know if this is the right thread to ask,but how are the flight recorders saved on impact what are they made from,a fall from 30,000ft plus is some drop,is it the same material in this boeing as an Airbus?[/QUOTE]

    Expand your question. Or make a few single answer questions. Make a statement. Then Ask A: B: C:

    I don't want to assume your question. And I don't want to lead you either.


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    #654
    folbotcar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 472 ✭✭folbotcar


    keith16 wrote: »
    It also shows how toothless the EU really is. Where did you see the photo of the cockpit by the way? I've been trying to avoid photos in case I come across anything upsetting. Link would be good, but only if it shows the aircraft parts alone.
    There's a photo earlier in this thread. It's upsetting but no body parts. They had no chance.


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    #655
    folbotcar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 472 ✭✭folbotcar


    smurfjed wrote: »
    Was out flying all day so missed the news, when did the proof that it was shot down by the Russians come from?

    Last that i knew was that it was shot down by a missile that was most likely built in Russia, but as to who fired it, I doubt very much that it was a Russian finger, or even a Russian instruction.
    Ah come on! Please stop this nonsense. An ethnic Russian fired this missile, safe in the knowledge that he was fighting for Mother Russia secure in the knowledge that Tovarich Putin approved his actions.
    You are a regular here not some conspiracy nut. Stop the sophistry.


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    #656
    weisses
    Registered Users Posts: 9,446 ✭✭✭weisses


    folbotcar wrote: »
    Ah come on! Please stop this nonsense. An ethnic Russian fired this missile, safe in the knowledge that he was fighting for Mother Russia secure in the knowledge that Tovarich Putin approved his actions.
    You are a regular here not some conspiracy nut. Stop the sophistry.

    I am here often enough but also Have an Interest in all kinds of conspiracy theories ... Do you think Im a nut ?


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    #657
    shedweller
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,029 ✭✭✭shedweller


    Not sure if these are already posted. No graphic images.
    https://www.flickr.com/photos/jeroenakkermans/sets/


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    #658
    weisses
    Registered Users Posts: 9,446 ✭✭✭weisses


    Dutch news confirming a rocket strike based on the black boxes


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    #659
    weisses
    Registered Users Posts: 9,446 ✭✭✭weisses


    Interesting piece from the local perspective

    http://m.europe.wsj.com/articles/after-flight-17-crash-agony-debris-and-heartbreak-in-ukraine-villages-1406335532?mobile=y


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    #660
    Jack1985
    Registered Users Posts: 2,497 ✭✭✭Jack1985


    Cause of the MH17 crash was a ''massive explosive decompression as a result of multiple shrapnel perforations, after a rocket explosion'' - Dutch safety agency is expected to confirm shortly. A doctor talking about the news says he believed the majority of passengers would have been dead in seconds as a result of the immediate and ''immense'' pressure caused by decompression.

    Meanwhile it's been suggested that not all bodies may be recovered and in the coffins recovered last week, ''were multiple parts of different bodies'' - Horrible to even think about. Separately, Ukrainian authorities have taken control of the crash site - Rebels have been pushed further into Donetsk region, International investigators and police from Australia and the Netherlands are now expected to be able to proceed to the ''multiple'' crash zones.

    http://www.rte.ie/news/2014/0728/633466-ukraine-mh17/


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    #661
    Tenger
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 9,735 Mod ✭✭✭✭Tenger


    weisses wrote: »
    Interesting piece from the local perspective

    http://m.europe.wsj.com/articles/after-flight-17-crash-agony-debris-and-heartbreak-in-ukraine-villages-1406335532?mobile=y

    That's harsh for the locals. Very interesting insight as the focus will follow the crash victims and leave the locals to recover on their own.

    Thanks for the link.


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