M20 - Cork to Limerick [preferred route chosen; in design - phase 3]

L1011 · 30-08-2015 2:29pm

Schadenfreudia wrote: »

Surely the Clonmel BP pre-dates the NRA??

No.

NRA is 1993/4 or so, Clonmel BP is 1999 finish date:

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/new-bypass-will-reduce-traffic-flow-in-clonmel-1.188466

Part of it is present on the 1995 OSI aerial photos but its clearly very new as the ground disturbance is visible.

marmurr1916 · 30-08-2015 7:01pm

Conba wrote: »

And let's not forget the Nenagh bypass that had to be upgraded to motorway very shortly after being built.

It didn't have to be.

The decision to upgrade the entire route between Limerick and Dublin to motorway or dual-carriageway meant that Nenagh needed to be bypassed by a motorway.

It was done because it was cheaper to do that than build an entirely new motorway bypass of Nenagh.

marmurr1916 · 30-08-2015 7:04pm

tippsean wrote: »

Could it be possible that a lot of effort, land and money could be saved by considering an alternative to the 2 new roads being discussed here, namely the M20 & the M24, and with major cost savings the actual projects might start?

I travel daily with my business…mainly in Munster, and the delays in these projects are frustrating, but I’m curious about the logic behind the plans in any case.

The proposed M20 is circa 60 miles long. The proposed M24 is 35 miles long. The M24 is proposed to begin at junction 10 on the M8. The M20 begins in Cork. Why not facilitate both routes by using one west-bound (Limerick) piece of motorway from a junction further down the M8 towards Cork and serve all Limerick bound traffic from one new 35 mile stretch of motorway?

The M8 is currently under-utilised, the toll system is already in place, and to my mind there is no need to build circa 105 miles of motorway on 2 new roads when it might be possible to build only 35 miles of motorway and facilitate all traffic whilst saving hundreds of millions? I might be way off the mark, but surely it is worth consideration

Some of the additional facts worth taking into consideration are:

It is shorter to go to limerick from Cork via Mitchelstown.
It would be about 8 miles longer for traffic going from Cahir to Limerick if there was a motorway from junction 12 on the M8 near Kilbeheny.
This motorway can be tunnelled under the Galtee mountains.
The cork traffic would bypass Mitchelstown at junction 13 and all traffic could meet at the Ballylanders side and a 30 mile motorway would bring them straight to the tunnel in limerick.
Also, if they ever built the northern bypass they are talking about in Cork this would enable all Cork traffic to go straight onto the motorway network.
This would take a big percentage of traffic out of cork , it would also solve the traffic problems in Tipperary town.

It doesn't matter how many user names you register. The proposal would still be more expensive than building an M20 between Cork and Limerick.

Leonard Hofstadter · 30-08-2015 11:21pm

marmurr1916 wrote: »

It doesn't matter how many user names you register. The proposal would still be more expensive than building an M20 between Cork and Limerick.

+1. Building from Mitchelstown to Limerick would be very expensive, going from the N24 would be much further distance wise than the existing road. Anyway even if these were possible (and a lot cheaper than the current prices) it still wouldn't change the fact that Mallow-Cork is totally under capacity and Buttevant and Charleville would still need to be bypassed - a lot of the traffic on that road is fairly local.

AugustusMinimus · 31-08-2015 8:09am

Here's an idea. Upgrade the M7 M8 junction to cover all movements and change the road signs. That'd be the cheapest option yet.

source · 31-08-2015 10:10am

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

Here's an idea. Upgrade the M7 M8 junction to cover all movements and change the road signs. That'd be the cheapest option yet.

Ah yeah, nothing like driving over an hour on the wrong direction to get where you want to go.

Best option is to just bloody well build the thing already and be done with it instead of wasting money fixing up a road that is wholly unsuitable.

zulutango · 31-08-2015 11:35am

marmurr1916 wrote: »

It doesn't matter how many user names you register. The proposal would still be more expensive than building an M20 between Cork and Limerick.

Which proposal would give the better long term return to the country? I'd imagine a motorway to Cahir probably would as you'd effectively be connecting Limerick Waterford as well as Limerick and Cork.

AugustusMinimus · 31-08-2015 12:04pm

zulutango wrote: »

Which proposal would give the better long term return to the country? I'd imagine a motorway to Cahir probably would as you'd effectively be connecting Limerick Waterford as well as Limerick and Cork.

I'd like to know the cost of additional fuel burned. In addition, this would benefit anyone on the Cork Limerick corridor which would make up a large percentage of user rather than just point to point user's

It would surely add 30 minutes to the journey.

Reputable Rog · 31-08-2015 12:32pm

There was never a proposal to build a motorway between Limerick and Waterford. only thing that was proposed was a realigned N24.

thevinylword · 31-08-2015 12:35pm

Absolutely bonkers that this road has never been built. Main road via Charleville etc. is a boidhrin, jokeshop

zulutango · 31-08-2015 2:28pm

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

I'd like to know the cost of additional fuel burned. In addition, this would benefit anyone on the Cork Limerick corridor which would make up a large percentage of user rather than just point to point user's

It would surely add 30 minutes to the journey.

Would it really be that much further?

I accept that people on the Cork - Limerick corridor wouldn't benefit, but the motorway is bigger than them to be fair.

Schadenfreudia · 31-08-2015 4:05pm

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

Here's an idea. Upgrade the M7 M8 junction to cover all movements and change the road signs. That'd be the cheapest option yet.

Tongue firmly in cheek I suspect?

cgcsb · 31-08-2015 5:17pm

zulutango wrote: »

Which proposal would give the better long term return to the country? I'd imagine a motorway to Cahir probably would as you'd effectively be connecting Limerick Waterford as well as Limerick and Cork.

The motorway between Waterford and Dublin is a tumbleweed collector at the best of times, I doubt there's any call for a Limerick-Waterford motorway.

Calina · 31-08-2015 6:00pm

zulutango wrote: »

I accept that people on the Cork - Limerick corridor wouldn't benefit, but the motorway is bigger than them to be fair.

However, a couple of towns there still have to be bypassed so you're suggesting a motorway project and a set of bypass projects. I'm not entirely sure this would be cheaper than the M20.

Chris_5339762 · 31-08-2015 8:06pm

cgcsb wrote: »

The motorway between Waterford and Dublin is a tumbleweed collector at the best of times.

Rubbish. Its got higher traffic levels than the middle sections of the M8! We all wanted it to fail, but its actually doing rather well for itself.

D Trent · 31-08-2015 8:23pm

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

Rubbish. Its got higher traffic levels than the middle sections of the M8! We all wanted it to fail, but its actually doing rather well for itself.

But there's a v noticeable difference once you go southbound from M7 after Naas

marno21 · 01-09-2015 1:10am

The M7 north of J11 (M9) is effectively M7 (M8-M9), the M9 after Naas is just M9 traffic

AugustusMinimus · 01-09-2015 8:13am

D Trent wrote: »

But there's a v noticeable difference once you go southbound from M7 after Naas

And you can say the same for the M8 south of This junction.

People have a serious bee in their bonnet about this motorway. Unlike most things in this country, it was done right on day 1 and will prob just need maintenance for the next 50 years.

zulutango · 01-09-2015 9:39am

Calina wrote: »

However, a couple of towns there still have to be bypassed so you're suggesting a motorway project and a set of bypass projects. I'm not entirely sure this would be cheaper than the M20.

Taking the long term economic view and the benefits of building either motorway (including the various bypasses and national route upgrades), the capital cost of either pales into insignificance surely.

tippsean · 03-09-2015 5:31pm

touts wrote: »

It's been proposed and as someone who travels those roads quite a bit I'd think that would be a pretty good solution. HOWEVER every gombeen local Councilor and TD has convinced the people of the various towns and villages along the N20 and N24 that they deserve a motorway running near their home, just not too near that they could see or hear it but in that sweet spot that boosts their house value. So now if a compromise is suggested thousands of angry locals will protest the issue. So in reality neither route will get upgraded because its a political minefield.

It surely is!

irishfeen · 03-09-2015 5:33pm

Anyone know what works the NRA are doing on the current N20 2&1 section? - just resurfacing I wonder?

tippsean · 03-09-2015 5:55pm

touts wrote: »

It's been proposed and as someone who travels those roads quite a bit I'd think that would be a pretty good solution. HOWEVER every gombeen local Councilor and TD has convinced the people of the various towns and villages along the N20 and N24 that they deserve a motorway running near their home, just not too near that they could see or hear it but in that sweet spot that boosts their house value. So now if a compromise is suggested thousands of angry locals will protest the issue. So in reality neither route will get upgraded because its a political minefield.

There are a lot more advantages to building just one motorway, not 2!. The biggest advantage is the PPP possibilities. This means that a toll could pay for this 30 mile length of motorway instead of 95 miles. Plus all the traffic from East Cork and West Cork and West Waterford, which now goes through Cork City, would come up the M8. If the Northern Bypass was ever built, it would take all the Limerick Bound traffic from Cork...out of the city. Plus, if they dug a tunnel under the Galtee mountains they would get enough stone to build half the motorway. Plus it would promote the Galtee mountains, the Glen of Aherlow and the Ballyhoura mountains. Anyone that would wish to visit them could reach them in half the time currently required. In addition, in time, Mallow could be connected onto this motorway. It could also over time provide an alternative route from Limerick to Killarney.

tippsean · 03-09-2015 6:01pm

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

I'd like to know the cost of additional fuel burned. In addition, this would benefit anyone on the Cork Limerick corridor which would make up a large percentage of user rather than just point to point user's

It would surely add 30 minutes to the journey.

It wouldn't take an additional 30 minutes. It would take 8 minutes maximum, longer of motorway driving (100-120kmph) to cover 14km further.

Reputable Rog · 03-09-2015 6:07pm

tippsean wrote: »

There are a lot more advantages to building just one motorway, not 2!. The biggest advantage is the PPP possibilities. This means that a toll could pay for this 30 mile length of motorway instead of 95 miles. Plus all the traffic from East Cork and West Cork and West Waterford, which now goes through Cork City, would come up the M8. If the Northern Bypass was ever built, it would take all the Limerick Bound traffic from Cork...out of the city. Plus, if they dug a tunnel under the Galtee mountains they would get enough stone to build half the motorway. Plus it would promote the Galtee mountains, the Glen of Aherlow and the Ballyhoura mountains. Anyone that would wish to visit them could reach them in half the time currently required. In addition, in time, Mallow could be connected onto this motorway. It could also over time provide an alternative route from Limerick to Killarney.

How much would a tunnel under the Galtees cost ? Likely to be environmentally problematic as well as financially unviable.

zulutango · 03-09-2015 6:08pm

Not having looked closely at the route, how necessary is the tunnel through the Galtees, and how long would that tunnel be?

I think your points are very good. Do you know if this route was looked at during the planning stage and if it was, do you know why it wasn't the favoured route?

We seem to have a habit in Ireland of building motorways along existing routes. It's as if we see them as upgrades of these old roads, when in reality they should be so much more than that.

tippsean · 03-09-2015 6:24pm

Reputable Rog wrote: »

How much would a tunnel under the Galtees cost ? Likely to be environmentally problematic as well as financially unviable.

The reason I'm suggesting tunneling is because they have been used all over Europe without any negative effect on the environment. The tunnel didn't affect the river Lee when they went under it, or did it affect the river Shannon?

Tunnels have proven financially viable for a couple of reasons, 1) The rock that can be used in the construction itself and 2) the motorway distance saved by going under the mountains 3) the promotion of mountainous tourist areas by bringing traffic through the areas brings financial benefits.

Another big advantage of this is that the NRA maintenance depot is already located in the region, saving millions.

90km of additional unnecessary motorway for an M20 will cost a huge number of millions to build and maintain.

Leonard Hofstadter · 03-09-2015 9:51pm

This doesn't change the fact that you're still going to need to bypass Mallow properly, plus Buttevant and Charleville. Even beyond Charleville the road is dire until you get to the Croom bypass. When you add all of these together plus building a link from Mitchelstown to Limerick the costs will be higher than just doing it properly and building the M20.

AugustusMinimus · 04-09-2015 7:47am

Can a new thread be setup for M20 alternatives?.

zulutango · 04-09-2015 9:36am

captainspeed wrote: »

This doesn't change the fact that you're still going to need to bypass Mallow properly, plus Buttevant and Charleville. Even beyond Charleville the road is dire until you get to the Croom bypass. When you add all of these together plus building a link from Mitchelstown to Limerick the costs will be higher than just doing it properly and building the M20.

There's cost and there's value. The value to Munster and Ireland of Tippsean's suggestion could be far greater than the value of a motorway along the existing Cork - Limerick road.

Pete_Cavan · 04-09-2015 10:02am

Tunnelling is feasible in other countries where it is linking huge populations within or between countries with much higher populations than ours. Tunnelling through the Alps is viable because the route is a major continental crossroads. A tunnel between Cork to Limerick cant be compared to a tunnel which may seem like the middle of nowhere but is on a route linking Italy to France. Also, the cost of tunnelling on the continent has to be weighed up against the cost of going over some serious mountain ranges and it is the cheaper option, the cost of tunnelling this would not compare favourably to the existing M20 plan. The alternative here is a route through favourable terrain, a good chunk of which is an online upgrade, not going over a formidable mountain range. And as for mountainous tourism, anyone interested in that doesn’t even consider what we have here to be mountains.

We struggle to fund a 7.5km tunnel in the most densely populated part of the country, we are not going to be building longer tunnels in rural areas.

bk · 04-09-2015 10:07am

Reputable Rog wrote: »

How much would a tunnel under the Galtees cost ? Likely to be environmentally problematic as well as financially unviable.

Yes, when I hear tunnel, I hear $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Tunnels are expensive, they only build tunnels in the Alps because they have no other choice, but they still end up costing big money.

I have no proof, but I wouldn't be surprised if tunnelling it would end up costing more then just building two separate motorways.

Specially when you consider you still have to bypass Mallow, Buttevant, etc.

Another thing to consider is that by having two separate roads, you can have two separate projects, thus you can string them both out over a longer period of time. For instance two separate cheaper roads build one after the other over 10 years, versus one more expensive project (due to tunnel) built over 5 years. The former is much easier on the capital budget.

I'm not saying it isn't a good idea, but I would really want to see the costings of the two different options.

But to be honest, I'd rather they forget about delaying things for years and just get started on the bloody M20.

zulutango · 04-09-2015 10:36am

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Tunnelling is feasible in other countries where it is linking huge populations within or between countries with much higher populations than ours. Tunnelling through the Alps is viable because the route is a major continental crossroads. A tunnel between Cork to Limerick cant be compared to a tunnel which may seem like the middle of nowhere but is on a route linking Italy to France. Also, the cost of tunnelling on the continent has to be weighed up against the cost of going over some serious mountain ranges and it is the cheaper option, the cost of tunnelling this would not compare favourably to the existing M20 plan. The alternative here is a route through favourable terrain, a good chunk of which is an online upgrade, not going over a formidable mountain range. And as for mountainous tourism, anyone interested in that doesn’t even consider what we have here to be mountains.

We struggle to fund a 7.5km tunnel in the most densely populated part of the country, we are not going to be building longer tunnels in rural areas.

There's tunnels all over Europe linking places that aren't big population centres. In any case, we should really be asking why Limerick and Cork aren't big population centres at the moment. Arguably the woeful connection between the two is one of the major reasons, coupled with, of course, the very myopic all roads lead to Dublin policy pursued by every government in the history of the State. Further to that, if we have any sense of planning in this country we should be looking at developing other population centres and the motorway network should be built with that in mind. Seeing it simply as a road improvement between two small cities is just all wrong.

Pete_Cavan · 04-09-2015 11:12am

zulutango wrote: »

There's tunnels all over Europe linking places that aren't big population centres. In any case, we should really be asking why Limerick and Cork aren't big population centres at the moment. Arguably the woeful connection between the two is one of the major reasons, coupled with, of course, the very myopic all roads lead to Dublin policy pursued by every government in the history of the State. Further to that, if we have any sense of planning in this country we should be looking at developing other population centres and the motorway network should be built with that in mind. Seeing it simply as a road improvement between two small cities is just all wrong.

My point is that a tunnel in rural Switzerland isnt to serve the population 50km either side of it, it serves the huge population of central Europe. People travelling between Germany, France, Italy, Switzerland, Austria, etc. for holidays/business/shopping/whatever will use the tunnel. The number of journeys between Cork and Limerick is nothing in comparison. The cost of such a tunnel could not be justified.

zulutango · 04-09-2015 11:20am

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

My point is that a tunnel in rural Switzerland isnt to serve the population 50km either side of it, it serves the huge population of central Europe. People travelling between Germany, France, Italy, Switzerland, Austria, etc. for holidays/business/shopping/whatever will use the tunnel. The number of journeys between Cork and Limerick is nothing in comparison. The cost of such a tunnel could not be justified.

There's tunnels all over Scandinavia in peripheral regions serving small populations. Anyway, we can't say unless some kind of cost benefit analysis is done.

loyatemu · 04-09-2015 11:40am

zulutango wrote: »

There's tunnels all over Scandinavia in peripheral regions serving small populations. Anyway, we can't say unless some kind of cost benefit analysis is done.

Faroe Islands also has loads of tunnels linking the islands.

The main motorway between France and Spain at the eastern end of the Pyrenees goes over a pass with no tunnels, I seriously doubt a tunnel would be required in Cork.

I realise this is off-topic as people with more familiarity with the area and the route suggest the idea is not a runner, but the Galtees are not that big a range, and the maps suggest there is a low route to the west of the mountains.

Carawaystick · 04-09-2015 2:33pm

loyatemu wrote: »

The main motorway between France and Spain at the eastern end of the Pyrenees goes over a pass with no tunnels

The pas at Els Limits is fairly low though (~230m (low for major mountain ranges, not Munster)) and there are several long viaducts on the way up from the French side, while the Spanish side "ground level" is much higher

Subpopulus · 04-09-2015 5:37pm

Why in God's name would you tunnel under the Galtees when you can just build it over the surface?

The hills between Mitchelstown and Ballylanders are no worse than between Mitchelstown and Fermoy, or the hills around Watergrasshill.

irishfeen · 06-09-2015 12:06pm

From the Irish Mail on Sunday -

KENNY'S €4.5BN SPLURGE ON ROADS AND RAIL

On the M20

"In 2011, plans for the M20 Cork to Limerick road were suspended. It is now believed that part of this motorway will be built, with plans advanced to give the go-ahead for a bypass of Mallow. However, the government will grant the go-ahead to fully complete the planning process for the road at a cost of €4m"

The election is definitely on the horizon

Mc Love · 06-09-2015 12:13pm

Isnt Mallow by-passed already?

irishfeen · 06-09-2015 12:16pm

Mc Love wrote: »

Isnt Mallow by-passed already?

Nope - all traffic N/S/E/W meet at the main roundabout in Mallow. people travelling W-E and vice versa have to drive through the town itself. Its after destroying the town in reality as people just stay out of it.

Schadenfreudia · 06-09-2015 12:19pm

zulutango wrote: »

There's tunnels all over Europe linking places that aren't big population centres.

Indeed they built a long modern tunnel in that massive country, Andorra, up near Pas de la Cassa, simply to remove some switchback roads that were already coping fairly well with the traffic! (Certainly a lot better than the N20 does).

Leonard Hofstadter · 06-09-2015 5:51pm

Would anyone be so kind as to tell me what the article in the Mail on Sunday says please?

I don't live in Ireland so I can't see what it's about. If it is true about the M20 being back on the agenda, that is absolutely fantastic news. I know it's not going to happen for ages obviously, but if we could get the planning etc re-done that will be brilliant, at least the project will be back on track.

As we all know, it is so badly needed, and obviously it's a vote winner. As one of the other posters said, the countdown to the General Election is most definitely on if they're promising the motorway

.

Reputable Rog · 06-09-2015 8:53pm

captainspeed wrote: »

Would anyone be so kind as to tell me what the article in the Mail on Sunday says please?

I don't live in Ireland so I can't see what it's about. If it is true about the M20 being back on the agenda, that is absolutely fantastic news. I know it's not going to happen for ages obviously, but if we could get the planning etc re-done that will be brilliant, at least the project will be back on track.

As we all know, it is so badly needed, and obviously it's a vote winner. As one of the other posters said, the countdown to the General Election is most definitely on if they're promising the motorway .

I read it in shop, didn't say much only that part of it would be built, Mallow will be bypassed and they're going to commit €4million to bring it to design and planning stage.
If it happens I'd be shocked and delighted,
My sources tell me that it may be bundled in with the m40 north Eastern phase and Dunkettle and will be built as far as north of Mallow.
My sources also say it won't happen.

touts · 06-09-2015 9:39pm

€4m to administrators, consultancy firms and external advisors to progress the planning application between now and the election. And then the new government will get in, look at the books and say everything is stopped again.

Leonard Hofstadter · 06-09-2015 10:14pm

Well if they got the planning going again that would be a big step. That's the problem at the moment, we have to start from scratch all over again. I don't think anyone expects it to be going to tender let alone construction for another five years. What's important is that the wheels are once again put in motion so that the project is 'shovel ready' in 4-5 years time when it will be time for another roads programme. I know it's O/T, but did the article mention any other roads projects in the pipeline?

irishfeen · 07-09-2015 9:21am

If the Mallow by-pass and a section of the M20 between north of Charleville to south of Malllow was built it would improve things greatly. That first section would ease traffic greatly in Mallow, Buttevant & Charleville and also take out the Ballybeg bends.

This section is one of the most urgent in the road network in the country and election or no election has to be done to save lives and drastically improve connectivity with the south and the west.

Leonard Hofstadter · 07-09-2015 6:10pm

Indeed, Cork-Mallow isn't too bad (relatively speaking) and once you get to the Croom bypass it's fine the rest of the way into Limerick. Mallow-Charleville is where the time is lost and is very dangerous in parts.

Missyelliot2 · 07-09-2015 11:29pm

captainspeed wrote: »

Indeed, Cork-Mallow isn't too bad (relatively speaking) and once you get to the Croom bypass it's fine the rest of the way into Limerick. Mallow-Charleville is where the time is lost and is very dangerous in parts.

I travel this road 4 times a week (both directions), and I have to disagree with you- only because it's the only place you can safely overtake -I've been stuck behind tractors/people going at 35mph etc. and I feel stressed by the time I get to Mallow and am awaiting an opportunity to overtake! Not the way to drive..:(

Reputable Rog · 08-09-2015 9:00am

captainspeed wrote: »

Indeed, Cork-Mallow isn't too bad (relatively speaking) and once you get to the Croom bypass it's fine the rest of the way into Limerick. Mallow-Charleville is where the time is lost and is very dangerous in parts.

Cork to Mallow is appalling, and the situation is compounded when there is roadworks or during the agricultural season.
Its time the second largest Metropolitan District and third largest Metropolitan District in the country were properly connected.

mydiscworld · 08-09-2015 11:33am

Is Buttevant still being polughed up? Must be well over 6 months now

M20 - Cork to Limerick [preferred route chosen; in design - phase 3]

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