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Sam Harris on the Israel-Palestine Conflict

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    #62
    Azwaldo55
    Registered Users Posts: 546 ✭✭✭Azwaldo55


    Harris is 100% correct.

    Supposing a lunatic walked into a shopping mall with a baby strapped to his body and he started spraying people left and right with bullets? When the cops turned up they might have to open fire on him to save others and in the process kill the baby.

    That is what we are talking about here.

    When David Koresh and his fanatical followers held out against the federal government they used the very children they were ritually sexually abusing as human shields and when the Feds tried to break into the compound they used tanks mounted with rams to break holes in the walls so they could pump in gas canisters to flush them all out into the open.

    Koresh and his followers set fire to their compound and worse the tear gas may have been flammable and turned the whole place into an inferno.

    The Feds had no choice but to take down the compound which was full of religious nuts plotting terror attacks, armed to the teeth with military hardware and sexually abusing and raping children. Koresh and his people killed and wounded federal agents and they created the siege that ended in a nightmare.

    The whole thing went to hell because of Koresh.

    Gaza is basically giant Waco compound. Hamas is a death cult just like Koresh and followers were. The innocent kids dying are just like the innocent kids dying in Waco.


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    #63
    PopePalpatine
    Registered Users Posts: 11,844 ✭✭✭✭PopePalpatine


    I don't think the US government set up a blockade around Waco that actually stopped those inside from leaving.


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    #64
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Azwaldo55 wrote: »
    Harris is 100% (.......)Waco.

    Silly OTT guff.


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    #65
    Azwaldo55
    Registered Users Posts: 546 ✭✭✭Azwaldo55


    Nodin wrote: »
    Silly OTT guff.

    How so?

    Gaza is Waco writ large.

    The comparison is quite apt.


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    #66
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    Azwaldo55 wrote: »
    Harris is 100% correct.

    Supposing a lunatic walked into a shopping mall with a baby strapped to his body and he started spraying people left and right with bullets? When the cops turned up they might have to open fire on him to save others and in the process kill the baby.

    That is what we are talking about here....
    Eh.. no its not. You're just making that up. That never happened.
    Although, it seems Harris's example never happened either, so you have that in common with him.


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    #67
    Recondite49
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,004 ✭✭✭Recondite49


    jank wrote: »
    If there was rising we would more or less have the same standard of living and freedoms we enjoy now and indeed the crimes of the RCC may have been lessoned a fair bit but that is a topic for another occasions.

    What the latest spat between Israel and Gaza is teaching they world is how out gunned Hamas are. What tangible benefits can be seen today from the 2,700 rockets that have been fired into Israel? What fruits of concession can be seen from Israel due to Hamas's tactics? What can Hamas say to its people in the coming days or weeks when a ceasefire begins? What can Hamas bring to its people and say 'yes it was worth that x people died because we got y'.

    It may not seem fair but fairness doesn't enter into it. Hamas cannot win anything given its current methods or tactics that have failed utterly this past few weeks and in the wider context have failed its own people for decades under various other Palestinian leadership. Blunder after blunder, while its leaders hide out in bunkers while their people die.

    The whole idea of a resistance is to have some sort of end goal and tangible benefit. In the Irish 1921 it was freedom from British rule. The treaty was a huge concession to the original aims of the Irish Republican movement and wisely they took it even though it ended up partitioning the country while the King remained head of state. What is the end goal of Hamas? Well currently, their charter states that they want to wipe Israel off the face of the earth and call for Muslims to kill Jews wherever they find them. Do you think the British would have been so eager for peace if Collins and Dev's primary aim was to kill all Brits? I hardly think so. They would have been quite busy that the original IRA never had the hardware nor the capability to carry out their aims.

    Hi jank,

    If I may summarise it seems to me that you're saying that the fact that Hamas is heavily outgunned implies that they are wrong to violently resist Israeli Occupation - there is a difference between fighting an unjust war and one you're unlikely to win - this is one of the latter for Hamas, not the former. It really is as simple as that.


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    #68
    Azwaldo55
    Registered Users Posts: 546 ✭✭✭Azwaldo55


    Recondite49 wrote: »
    Hi jank,

    If I may summarise it seems to me that you're saying that the fact that Hamas is heavily outgunned implies that they are wrong to violently resist Israeli Occupation - there is a difference between fighting an unjust war and one you're unlikely to win - this is one of the latter for Hamas, not the former. It really is as simple as that.

    Hamas are NOT fighting a just war. Their aim - they have been quite explicit about it - is the destruction of Israel and the mass genocide of all Jews and the establishment of a global Islamic Caliphate.
    They have demonstrated a supreme indifference to the lives of the Palestinian people who they use a human shields while they fire rockets at Israeli civilians.
    They have NO chance of succeeding in their murderous goal while Israel remains strong.
    The deaths of Palestinian civilians is entirely the fault of Hamas and the Palestinian people themselves who voted for and have supported Hamas for the past ten years or so.
    This has happened before - they fired rockets at Israel and Israel responded with massive force with dire consequences- and yet they have continued to fire rockets.
    They have nobody to blame but themselves.
    Therefore I have no sympathy and very little pity left for the Palestinians.
    They have doomed their children too.


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    #69
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Azwaldo55 wrote: »
    Hamas are NOT (........)children too.

    An endless fountain of hyperbole is yours to command, it seems.


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    #70
    kylith
    Registered Users Posts: 17,736 ✭✭✭✭kylith


    Now, I don't much follow the news so let me see if I've gotten this straight:

    A large portion of Palestine was given by Britain (and probably others) to the Jewish people after WW2.
    Since then Israel has taken more and more land from Palestine for themselves.
    Palestine is now a tiny area blockaded inside their former country, which is now mostly occupied by Israel, with no way of escape.
    The Palestinians are somehow in the wrong for fighting back.

    Now, it seems to me that if some asshole gives away half your country and the people who move in there decide that they want the rest of the country too then you are well within your rights to fight them. It's like if the British hadn't been satisfied with the 6 counties and had gradually annexed Ireland until the entire population was confined to Offaly, then the Brits started complaining that the Irish were attacking them.


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    #71
    wolfmam
    Registered Users Posts: 1 ✭wolfmam


    Akrasia wrote: »
    I don't take the side of Hamas against Israel. I take the side of the children of Palestine and the children of Israel, neither of whome have any hope of a peaceful future if the extremists on both sides don't back off and quit killing each other.

    Extremism breeds extremism. The extremist conditions in Gaza and the west bank make the emergence of fundamentalist extremists inevitable and drown out the voices of moderates and non violent peace activists.

    And amidst the open prison and the siege conditions, we have the additional confounding factor of the settler movement and the many Likud party members who are just as open about their desires to fully annex palestine as Hamas are about wiping out Israel.

    Israel are the powerful side in this conflict, they are ultimately responsible for the conditions in the lands they are occupying. I refuse to simply give up on the 4 million palestinian people and say that they are beyond reason and would not respond to humane treatment.

    The seeds of extremism are already planted on both sides and we are possibly already doomed to losing the current generation to hatred and despair, but if there is to ever be justice in the middle east, Israel needs to create the conditions where the people of palestine have reason to trust Israel and a reason to move away from their extremist islamic leaders. This requires proactive moves towards peace and reconciliation
    I like bbs quote, we gave them cement look what they used it for...we moved our people out of their land some years back...we gave the Golan hights bck to Egypt, what more can we do...their motto is kil kill kill. they use their people in their cities as shields...their motto is their is no god but allagh, ask them if u don't belive me. these extremists don't stop at anything..look at that soldier in England who they cut his head off for no reason...no reason...but their motto...their is no god but allagh....


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    #72
    Azwaldo55
    Registered Users Posts: 546 ✭✭✭Azwaldo55


    Nodin wrote: »
    An endless fountain of hyperbole is yours to command, it seems.

    Hamas have an escathological religious worldview hence their lunatic ongoing actions in firing rockets long past their little Islamic Emirate has been smashed into the ground. They increasingly resemble the die hard Nazis and Japs who refused to surrender and were plowed under in the end.
    Sad but they brought it upon themselves.


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    #73
    Corkfeen
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,940 ✭✭✭Corkfeen


    You seem to be endorsing wiping out Palestine unless Hamas cease firing missiles. I don't approve of the actions of Hamas but a response that displaces hundreds of thousands of civilians and kills hundreds or thousands is not a fair response. Having little sympathy for the Palestinians is pretty worrying tbh. How many civilian deaths is unacceptable to you out of interest? Directed at Azwaldo if not clear..


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    #74
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    kylith wrote: »
    Now, I don't much follow the news so let me see if I've gotten this straight:

    A large portion of Palestine was given by Britain (and probably others) to the Jewish people after WW2.
    Not quite, the British just left Palestine to the locals, both jews and arabs.
    Zionists seized the bulk of the country and called it the jewish state of Israel.
    Gaza, West bank etc.. are the small bits left to the arab population, which was originally in the majority.
    Eventually it will all have to be restored to a single unitary State of Palestine, and they will all have to learn to get along with each other. There will be a lot of "truth and reconciliation" to be done. A two state solution is not possible or sustainable, just as it would not have been in South Africa.


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    #75
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    Azwaldo55 wrote: »
    Hamas have an escathological religious worldview...
    That may well be the case, but its not a case of supporting either Hamas in Gaza or the Zionists in Israel. They are both terrorist states.


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    #76
    Panrich
    Registered Users Posts: 3,776 ✭✭✭Panrich


    I think that the lunatics in charge in Israel have finally overstepped the mark this time. I know many people who have never been motivated politically about this issue who now are scrutinising their shopping baskets to avoid Israeli products and are openly critical of what is happening. These actions will have long term repurcussions.


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    #77
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    wolfmam wrote: »
    I like bbs quote, we gave them cement look what they used it for...we moved our people out of their land some years back...we gave the Golan hights bck to Egypt, what more can we do...their motto is kil kill kill. they use their people in their cities as shields...their motto is their is no god but allagh, ask them if u don't belive me. these extremists don't stop at anything..look at that soldier in England who they cut his head off for no reason...no reason...but their motto...their is no god but allagh....

    1 - yez still have the Golan heights. 2 - it was Syrian.

    The beheaded soldier in England has nothing to do with Hamas.


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    #78
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Nodin wrote: »
    Even odder when you consider that it was Israeli policy (officially and openly) to use Palestinians in such a manner for many years. The B'tselem web site is down at the moment, but it has extensive reports of it being carried out, both before the high court ruling banning it and after.

    Harris has always talked through his arse on this issue over the years, and is selective with his use of the facts.

    Right - B'tselem back up. Appears it was hacked, for some reason.

    "On 6 October 2005, Israel's High Court of Justice ruled that it was illegal for the army to use Palestinian civilians during military actions. The court ruled on a petition submitted by Adalah in the name of B'Tselem and six other human rights organizations in 2002. The petition followed the army's use of Palestinian civilians as human shields since the beginning of the second intifada, primarily during operations carried out in densely populated Palestinian areas, as occurred in Operation Defensive Shield.
    The method was the same each time: soldiers picked a civilian at random and forced him to protect them with his body, and do dangerous tasks for them. For example, soldiers have ordered Palestinians to:
    • enter buildings to check if they are booby-trapped, or to remove the occupants;
    • remove suspicious objects from roads;
    • stand inside houses where soldiers set up military positions, so that Palestinians would not fire at them;
    • and walk in front of soldiers to shield them from gunfire, while the soldiers point a gun to their backs and sometimes fire over their shoulders."
    http://www.btselem.org/human_shields


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    #79
    jank
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 13,018 ✭✭✭✭jank


    Nodin wrote: »
    Conflating the three in the one sentence is being rather dishonest. As is constantly referring to Hamas as if they were the sole representatives of the Palestinian people.

    Would you care to address the key point I made, that Hamas would if they could commit genocide against the Jews and Israel? Do you agree that they are religious fanatics who have perpetuated a cult of martyrdom inside the Gaza strip? Do you agree that they are terrorists?


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    #80
    jank
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 13,018 ✭✭✭✭jank


    Recondite49 wrote: »
    Hi jank,

    If I may summarise it seems to me that you're saying that the fact that Hamas is heavily outgunned implies that they are wrong to violently resist Israeli Occupation - there is a difference between fighting an unjust war and one you're unlikely to win - this is one of the latter for Hamas, not the former. It really is as simple as that.

    Hamas have no hope of winning this war as a military conflict. That is much is clear to anyone with half a brain, yet people still say "sure what else can they do". Maybe stop firing almost 3000 rockets indiscriminately into Israeli population centers. Instead of using Gaza as a launchpad for rockets and concrete for tunnels being dug into Israel proper why not actively help the people they are supposed to rule? Drop the genocidal nature of their politics, drop the cult of martyrdom. Israel have won almost every military engagement with Arab and terrorist forces for over 60 years. This is the outcome of these victories. It may seem harsh, unfair but that is the way things are. Sue for permanent peace and concentrate on bettering your peoples lot rather then fighting a conflict you have zero chance of winning.

    Lets put it this way. Are the few dissident republicans right to continue to fight the occupation of NI by the British even though they have no hope of winning the conflict on military terms?


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    #81
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    jank wrote: »
    Would you care to address the key point I made, that Hamas would if they could commit genocide against the Jews and Israel? Do you agree that they are religious fanatics who have perpetuated a cult of martyrdom inside the Gaza strip? Do you agree that they are terrorists?

    No, exaggerated, I don't believe in the term.


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    #82
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    jank wrote: »
    Hamas have no hope of winning this war as a military conflict. That is much is clear to anyone with half a brain, yet people still say "sure what else can they do". Maybe stop firing almost 3000 rockets indiscriminately into Israeli population centers. Instead of using Gaza as a launchpad for rockets and concrete for tunnels being dug into Israel proper why not actively help the people they are supposed to rule? Drop the genocidal nature of their politics, drop the cult of martyrdom. Israel have won almost every military engagement with Arab and terrorist forces for over 60 years. This is the outcome of these victories. It may seem harsh, unfair but that is the way things are. Sue for permanent peace and concentrate on bettering your peoples lot rather then fighting a conflict you have zero chance of winning.

    Lets put it this way. Are the few dissident republicans right to continue to fight the occupation of NI by the British even though they have no hope of winning the conflict on military terms?


    As has been pointed out, Fatah have done this, and received nothing but more settlers for their efforts.


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    #83
    Azwaldo55
    Registered Users Posts: 546 ✭✭✭Azwaldo55


    Nodin wrote: »
    As has been pointed out, Fatah have done this, and received nothing but more settlers for their efforts.

    So the obvious solution is to fire rockets at innocent Israeli civilians?

    Stop making excuses for Hamas, an Islamic supremacist organisation who seek to destroy Israel and mass murder all the Jews.
    Every time there has been a ceasefire over the past few days Israel has agreed to it while Hamas has broke it by firing rockets.
    There can be no excuse for terrorism.
    Israel is fighting an enemy who uses the Palestinians as a human shield.
    As has been said before Israel uses its missile systems to protect its civilians while Hamas uses it civilians to protects its missiles.

    Hopefully in coming days enough stocks of Hamas rockets and their terror tunnels will be destroyed.

    This is the third time in so many years Israel has been force to use military power against Hamas.

    In a few years hopefully there will not have to be a repeat but if so Israel will defend its people without apology.


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    #84
    mezuzaj
    Closed Accounts Posts: 176 ✭✭mezuzaj


    Akrasia wrote: »
    I don't take the side of Hamas against Israel. I take the side of the children of Palestine and the children of Israel, neither of whome have any hope of a peaceful future if the extremists on both sides don't back off and quit killing each other.

    Extremism breeds extremism. The extremist conditions in Gaza and the west bank make the emergence of fundamentalist extremists inevitable and drown out the voices of moderates and non violent peace activists.

    And amidst the open prison and the siege conditions, we have the additional confounding factor of the settler movement and the many Likud party members who are just as open about their desires to fully annex palestine as Hamas are about wiping out Israel.

    Israel are the powerful side in this conflict, they are ultimately responsible for the conditions in the lands they are occupying. I refuse to simply give up on the 4 million palestinian people and say that they are beyond reason and would not respond to humane treatment.

    The seeds of extremism are already planted on both sides and we are possibly already doomed to losing the current generation to hatred and despair, but if there is to ever be justice in the middle east, Israel needs to create the conditions where the people of palestine have reason to trust Israel and a reason to move away from their extremist islamic leaders. This requires proactive moves towards peace and reconciliation


    Well written..


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    #85
    Frank Lee Midere
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,780 ✭✭✭Frank Lee Midere


    recedite wrote: »
    Not quite, the British just left Palestine to the locals, both jews and arabs.
    Zionists seized the bulk of the country and called it the jewish state of Israel.
    Gaza, West bank etc.. are the small bits left to the arab population, which was originally in the majority.
    Eventually it will all have to be restored to a single unitary State of Palestine, and they will all have to learn to get along with each other. There will be a lot of "truth and reconciliation" to be done. A two state solution is not possible or sustainable, just as it would not have been in South Africa.

    The only "one state" solution likely to happen is greater israel accompanied by ethic cleansing.

    The two state solution is dead. Israel is moving further to the right every generation.


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    #86
    Frank Lee Midere
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,780 ✭✭✭Frank Lee Midere


    jank wrote: »
    Would you care to address the key point I made, that Hamas would if they could commit genocide against the Jews and Israel? Do you agree that they are religious fanatics who have perpetuated a cult of martyrdom inside the Gaza strip? Do you agree that they are terrorists?

    The moral bankruptcy of the "they would if they could" argument is that of a petulant child. Particularly as you are transferring Hamas' statements on to all Palestinians.

    There are ISIS cells in the UK. ISIS are a subset of the Muslim population. Should we bomb, arrest or deport the UK Muslim population?


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    #87
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Azwaldo55 wrote: »
    ..............
    Israel is fighting an enemy who uses the Palestinians as a human shield.
    .....................
    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/israelgaza-conflict-the-myth-of-hamass-human-shield-9619810.html

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=91520657&postcount=78

    The rest of your post is the usual hyperbole and guff.


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    #88
    jank
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 13,018 ✭✭✭✭jank


    Nodin wrote: »
    As has been pointed out, Fatah have done this, and received nothing but more settlers for their efforts.

    As you may have missed, the West Bank is not being torn apart from a military engagement. Of course the solution to settlers is to launch rockets into Israel, brain wash potential suicide bombers and dig tunnels into Israel proper for the use of murder. That will teach em' right?


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    #89
    jank
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 13,018 ✭✭✭✭jank


    Nodin wrote: »
    No, exaggerated, I don't believe in the term.

    Yea, Hamas are not terrorists and pope Francis is not a catholic.


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    #90
    jank
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 13,018 ✭✭✭✭jank


    Frank Lee Midere wrote: »
    The moral bankruptcy of the "they would if they could" argument is that of a petulant child. Particularly as you are transferring Hamas' statements on to all Palestinians.

    There are ISIS cells in the UK. ISIS are a subset of the Muslim population. Should we bomb, arrest or deport the UK Muslim population?

    Where did I mention that all Palestinians are terrorists or members of Hamas? I didn't so don't put words in my mouth. I think it's better for all in the ling run if Hamas were either destroyed militarily or prolifically. Israel seem to be making a big effort this time around to finish the job for good as it doesn't want to be back there in a year or two.

    People forget about the 3000 or so rockets that have been fired into Israel. They have been largely ineffectual because of israels new defensive technology in dealing with them. A few years ago you would have hundreds killed, now the numbers are much lower. Are we to blame Israel for this? Really?

    Meanwhile how many bomb shelters have Hamas built? As far as I know the leadership have their own bomb shelters while the ordinary guy on the ground has to use one run by the UN. How about investing in bomb shelters rather than tunnels?

    Also it's not moral bankruptcy. It's not a theory of they would if the could. It's a reality. Hamas preach holocaust denial, so much so when the UN wanted to include the holocaust as part of a course in human rights being taught to children Hamas came out saying that's it's made up Zionist propaganda! Then of course their political charter states that they want to kill Jews and wipe Israel off the map. If they could, they definitely would! It's naive to think otherwise.


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    #91
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    jank wrote: »
    As you may have missed, the West Bank is not being torn apart from a military engagement. .............

    No, its being built on by colonists and its inhabitants brutalised in a low key fashion. While its possible to repair a destroyed house or fill a crater, the consequences of trying to remove a settlement are grim indeed.


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