Sam Harris on the Israel-Palestine Conflict

Right Turn Clyde · 28-07-2014 1:18pm #1

Harris' latest piece made me reassess the on-going conflict. I've always viewed Israel as an aggressor, so reading about its inherent vulnerability put a fresh perspective on things. However, I do feel that Harris is quite forgiving of Israel and that doesn't sit easy with me. But I'm quite ignorant of this issue in general, so what do I know. I suspect there's more informed opinions on here, so I'm just wondering what you make of Harris' position?

Akrasia · 28-07-2014 2:12pm

I don't take the side of Hamas against Israel. I take the side of the children of Palestine and the children of Israel, neither of whome have any hope of a peaceful future if the extremists on both sides don't back off and quit killing each other.

Extremism breeds extremism. The extremist conditions in Gaza and the west bank make the emergence of fundamentalist extremists inevitable and drown out the voices of moderates and non violent peace activists.

And amidst the open prison and the siege conditions, we have the additional confounding factor of the settler movement and the many Likud party members who are just as open about their desires to fully annex palestine as Hamas are about wiping out Israel.

Israel are the powerful side in this conflict, they are ultimately responsible for the conditions in the lands they are occupying. I refuse to simply give up on the 4 million palestinian people and say that they are beyond reason and would not respond to humane treatment.

The seeds of extremism are already planted on both sides and we are possibly already doomed to losing the current generation to hatred and despair, but if there is to ever be justice in the middle east, Israel needs to create the conditions where the people of palestine have reason to trust Israel and a reason to move away from their extremist islamic leaders. This requires proactive moves towards peace and reconciliation

P_1 · 28-07-2014 2:17pm

Too many people view the issue as a black/white one. The people who's side I'm on is the 'regular' Israeli and Palestinian. The ones who just simply want to get on with their lives. The ones that don't want to be conscripted or have Islamic fundamentalists ruling over them. The ones who don't want to have to hide from rockets. The ones who don't want to be used as pawns by extremists on either side.

jank · 28-07-2014 2:20pm

I normally do not agree with Harris but he is spot on in this regard. Just ask your self this. When was the last time there was a protest or petition regarding ISIS or a similar Islamic organisation that killed their own people to further their goals? The west have always held Israel to a higher standard hence the outrage, yet most people ignore the fact that if the roles were reversed Hamas would kill every Jew in Palestine. Can you imagine a political organisation in the west that advocates genocide against a race! Yet here today that is what Hamas preaches. From an Israeli point of view, it's quite hard to make peace with a group that's wants to annihilate you and your family. Very easy to preach from a leafy Irish Middle class suburb but if you lived in Israel and had to witness daily rocket attacks, look at your grandmothers holocaust ID number tattooed to her arm and listen of the tales that your grandfather tells of program's that involved decapitation with hammers and machetes in Russia then I would imagine your perspective would be different.

Leroy42 · 28-07-2014 2:28pm

I heard a very good point made yesterday. It is like if you were attacked walking in Eyre Square and so took vengence out on every person who lived in Galway. While Israel have every right to defend themselves, they do not have the right to indiscriminately kill civilians. If they feel that the only way to deal with the threat is to invade Palestine, then go ahead and do it. This 'offensive' is simply them trying to get the best of the PR. They have invaded another country, simple as. Whether they have a legimate cause to do that is a moot point.

Whether you agree with Israel or not, in this instance they are clearly using excessive force.

Based on the current situation, Israel seems to be saying that if they are attacked then they legitametly can attack any and all targets which they deem to have been involved. No evidence, no trial, summary execution. Selected for attack based purely on where you live (and by extension your religion). That is dangerously close to what they have had to deal with in the past.

keane2097 · 28-07-2014 2:35pm

Wouldn't even know where to start with all the inaccuracies!

Akrasia · 28-07-2014 2:59pm

jank wrote: »

I normally do not agree with Harris but he is spot on in this regard. Just ask your self this. When was the last time there was a protest or petition regarding ISIS or a similar Islamic organisation that killed their own people to further their goals? The west have always held Israel to a higher standard hence the outrage, yet most people ignore the fact that if the roles were reversed Hamas would kill every Jew in Palestine. Can you imagine a political organisation in the west that advocates genocide against a race! Yet here today that is what Hamas preaches. From an Israeli point of view, it's quite hard to make peace with a group that's wants to annihilate you and your family. Very easy to preach from a leafy Irish Middle class suburb but if you lived in Israel and had to witness daily rocket attacks, look at your grandmothers holocaust ID number tattooed to her arm and listen of the tales that your grandfather tells of program's that involved decapitation with hammers and machetes in Russia then I would imagine your perspective would be different.

You're able to see this from an imagined Israeli point of view, but you seem to stop there, why don't you see it from the perspective of both sides? The majority of palestinians were born into a state of occupation in appalling conditions of squalour and poverty where their homes are constantly threatened with being demolished by the Israelis for 'security' reasons or as part of one of their regular aerial bombardments.

If there is ever going to be peace, there needs to be security for all, not just for one side. Israel needs to work with the palestinians and the international community to create a viable palestinian state with a stable government and enough resources to treat violence as a criminal matter and not a military one.

The U.N. needs to really step in here and broker a deal between the two sides, and then, crucially, enforce it. The 1967 borders are, by international law, the legitimate boundaries between Israel and Palestine. How can anyone expect the palestinians to trust Israel or the international community when Israel is in flagrant breach of international law and nothing is done about it?

Maybe the 1967 borders are no longer viable. Maybe a new deal needs to be reached, But whatever happens, it needs to give the palestinians hope of having a sustainable state, and it needs to be enforced by the U.N.

Nodin · 28-07-2014 3:35pm

Right Turn Clyde wrote: »

Harris' latest piece made me reassess the on-going conflict. I've always viewed Israel as an aggressor, so reading about its inherent vulnerability put a fresh perspective on things. However, I do feel that Harris is quite forgiving of Israel and that doesn't sit easy with me. But I'm quite ignorant of this issue in general, so what do I know. I suspect there's more informed opinions on here, so I'm just wondering what you make of Harris' position?

Harris is talking through his arse again.

If Israel isn't the aggressor, you'd have to explain these.....
http://www.btselem.org/settlements
http://www.btselem.org/jerusalem
http://www.btselem.org/beating_and_abuse
http://www.btselem.org/settler_violence

Nodin · 28-07-2014 3:36pm

jank wrote: »

I normally do not agree with Harris but he is spot on in this regard. Just ask your self this. When was the last time there was a protest or petition regarding ISIS or a similar Islamic organisation that killed their own people to further their goals? .........

ISIS is a blacklisted organisation whose members are subject to arrest, killing etc and funds may be seized where possible. Not quite comparing like with like, are we?

Recondite49 · 28-07-2014 3:42pm

jank wrote: »

I normally do not agree with Harris but he is spot on in this regard. Just ask your self this. When was the last time there was a protest or petition regarding ISIS or a similar Islamic organisation that killed their own people to further their goals? The west have always held Israel to a higher standard hence the outrage, yet most people ignore the fact that if the roles were reversed Hamas would kill every Jew in Palestine. Can you imagine a political organisation in the west that advocates genocide against a race! Yet here today that is what Hamas preaches. From an Israeli point of view, it's quite hard to make peace with a group that's wants to annihilate you and your family. Very easy to preach from a leafy Irish Middle class suburb but if you lived in Israel and had to witness daily rocket attacks, look at your grandmothers holocaust ID number tattooed to her arm and listen of the tales that your grandfather tells of program's that involved decapitation with hammers and machetes in Russia then I would imagine your perspective would be different.

Then again I don't think the fact that the suffering of the Jewish people during WW2 is an automatic way to obviate responsibility for massacring Palestinians - it seems they have been inspired by the Nazi example!

I agree what you say in that its very easy to moralise if you don't live there but then as an Irish person, I daresay you don't have to go too far back to remember a time where a foreign country (mine!) was systematically reducing the land on which you lived, raping your natural resources and denying your basic freedoms.

I also think if I talked about my English ancestors who were awfully inconvenienced by those jumped up Paddys shooting at them because they wanted independence, we'd all rightly be considerably less sympathetic.

It's precisely because a violent insurrection took place that you can sit in an Irish leafy suburb and be governed by other Irish people - the situation of the people in Palestine is little different to that of the Irish rebels who fought and won their freedom in my view.

28-07-2014 3:43pm

Harris is quite the logician.

28-07-2014 3:44pm

jank wrote: »

Very easy to preach from a leafy Irish Middle class suburb but if you lived in Israel and had to witness daily rocket attacks, look at your grandmothers holocaust ID number tattooed to her arm and listen of the tales that your grandfather tells of program's that involved decapitation with hammers and machetes in Russia then I would imagine your perspective would be different.

Why try to justify it by explaining why it's illogical/overreacting when you seem to think you've already given perfectly reasonable explanations?

tayto lover · 28-07-2014 3:46pm

Right Turn Clyde wrote: »

Harris' latest piece made me reassess the on-going conflict. I've always viewed Israel as an aggressor, so reading about its inherent vulnerability put a fresh perspective on things. However, I do feel that Harris is quite forgiving of Israel and that doesn't sit easy with me. But I'm quite ignorant of this issue in general, so what do I know. I suspect there's more informed opinions on here, so I'm just wondering what you make of Harris' position?

Another in denial, an apologist too.

El_Duderino 09 · 28-07-2014 4:33pm

I find it so hard to pick a side in this war. To be honest I don't like either side very much. The middle east is a tumultuous place at the moment and I can't imagine picking a side in the Syrian civil war at the moment. I see the Israelis as being just as likable/unlikable as the others in the middle east. We do however hold them to a different standard to the rest of the countries in the region. I think this is because they have a political system that looks a bit like ours. But I can' stand people having unwavering support for one side or the other in this war. I often wonder (Contentious opinion warning) if the US would find it harder to pick a side of Israelis were as brown as the Palestinians. Show me the good guys in the war in Syria or Israel/Palestine.

For what its worth I dont support Israel, but I also don't think they have to keep absorbing punches from Hammas indefinitely.

Hammas are wrong for firing rockets, Israel is wrong for invading Gaza and continuing ot build settlements on disputed territory. Show me the good guys

Leroy42 · 28-07-2014 5:00pm

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Show me the good guys

Not sure about good guys but I'm guessing that the Palestine kids getting blown up by Israel army are probably not bad guys.

What about the UN school that was targeted, are UN the bad guys now as well?

Right Turn Clyde · 28-07-2014 5:04pm

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

I find it so hard to pick a side in this war.

It's not a coin toss.

lynski · 28-07-2014 6:03pm

Not sure picking a side is even valid, they are all humans killing humans, one side more than the other.

Corkfeen · 28-07-2014 6:30pm

jank wrote: »

I normally do not agree with Harris but he is spot on in this regard. Just ask your self this. When was the last time there was a protest or petition regarding ISIS or a similar Islamic organisation that killed their own people to further their goals? The west have always held Israel to a higher standard hence the outrage, yet most people ignore the fact that if the roles were reversed Hamas would kill every Jew in Palestine. Can you imagine a political organisation in the west that advocates genocide against a race! Yet here today that is what Hamas preaches. From an Israeli point of view, it's quite hard to make peace with a group that's wants to annihilate you and your family. Very easy to preach from a leafy Irish Middle class suburb but if you lived in Israel and had to witness daily rocket attacks, look at your grandmothers holocaust ID number tattooed to her arm and listen of the tales that your grandfather tells of program's that involved decapitation with hammers and machetes in Russia then I would imagine your perspective would be different.

How exactly can you view the bombing of schools,hospitals and playgrounds as acceptable? I do not approve of the actions of Hamas but this does not lead to Israel's actions being acceptable. The vast majority of the casualties are civilians,there have been people targeted that were clearly not members of Hamas. You'll also find that there are many Israelis that do not agree with their government's actions.

Every time Israel ends up in these horrible engagements every few years, they bolster support for Hamas. If you want to destroy support for Hamas,one of the more credible ways of destroying support for them is to end the blockade and stick by the 1967 borders. Killing civilians that include children is definitely not going to work.

Great broadcast from Jon Snow a few days back btw. It's probably one of the most powerful news moments I've seen in a long time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mR1LGoNg5p4

keeponhurling · 28-07-2014 6:37pm

Very little in the news about the West Bank during this conflict.

Has there been a reaction there at all ?

Nodin · 28-07-2014 7:19pm

keeponhurling wrote: »

Very little in the news about the West Bank during this conflict.

Has there been a reaction there at all ?

Yep, protests and the like.

robindch · 28-07-2014 7:58pm

jank wrote: »

When was the last time there was a protest or petition regarding ISIS or a similar Islamic organisation that killed their own people to further their goals?

You're right to point it out, but miss what seems to me to be the obvious reason why.

There's no point in protesting ISIS, the Taleban or any other similar outfit because they've no Embassy or other reliable representation here in Ireland, we've no trade with them, no noticeable presence here and broadly speaking, no contact at all, so any message sent from here is never going to reach them, regardless of passion. A protest isn't going to achieve much more provide the opportunity for a good walk for all concerned. It's different with Israel who do have an Embassy here, who do have loyal citizens living in Ireland and, in general, it's a country and an administration which are, at least in principle, subject to economic, judicial and social sanction. We at least share a common media language. That's not the case with ISIS, the Taleban and so on.

Corkfeen · 28-07-2014 8:35pm

I also find it pretty worrying when any embassy distributes material such as this.
http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/israels-irish-embassy-condemned-over-european-terror-propaganda-tweets-30464051.html

riffmongous · 28-07-2014 9:09pm

Eugh that OP article is pretty awful, everything is the Muslim's fault :rolleyes:

keeponhurling wrote: »

Very little in the news about the West Bank during this conflict.

Has there been a reaction there at all ?

Protests and death

SeaBreezes · 28-07-2014 11:24pm

Read the article, complete dribble. Israel may find it seriously harder to control what we're told in the age of the camera phone and the internet. :-) the world can see whats happening and its shameful. Boycott all goods from Israel.

tayto lover · 28-07-2014 11:30pm

SeaBreezes wrote: »

Read the article, complete dribble. Israel may find it seriously harder to control what we're told in the age of the camera phone and the internet. :-) the world can see whats happening and its shameful. Boycott all goods from Israel.

If our Govt had any balls and weren't always kowtowing the Israeli ambassador would have been sent packing days ago.

jank · 29-07-2014 7:44am

Akrasia wrote: »

You're able to see this from an imagined Israeli point of view, but you seem to stop there, why don't you see it from the perspective of both sides? The majority of palestinians were born into a state of occupation in appalling conditions of squalour and poverty where their homes are constantly threatened with being demolished by the Israelis for 'security' reasons or as part of one of their regular aerial bombardments.

If there is ever going to be peace, there needs to be security for all, not just for one side. Israel needs to work with the palestinians and the international community to create a viable palestinian state with a stable government and enough resources to treat violence as a criminal matter and not a military one.

The U.N. needs to really step in here and broker a deal between the two sides, and then, crucially, enforce it. The 1967 borders are, by international law, the legitimate boundaries between Israel and Palestine. How can anyone expect the palestinians to trust Israel or the international community when Israel is in flagrant breach of international law and nothing is done about it?

Maybe the 1967 borders are no longer viable. Maybe a new deal needs to be reached, But whatever happens, it needs to give the palestinians hope of having a sustainable state, and it needs to be enforced by the U.N.

I do not disagree with much of that however the Palestinians need to get rid of the fanatics who want to martyr them and rewrite their mandate that includes peace with Israel, not genocide. Notice that other Arab states are in not much of a hurry to offer normalisation terms to Israel or do much to help the Palestinians. The normal Palestinian on the street is being used an abused just as much by their Arab neighbors as the Israelis.

jank · 29-07-2014 7:59am

Nodin wrote: »

ISIS is a blacklisted organisation whose members are subject to arrest, killing etc and funds may be seized where possible. Not quite comparing like with like, are we?

Yet when was there a protest in the West that called for action against them or their terrorist friends? If ISIS is ready to behead and crucify Muslims that they think are not pious enough what would you think they would do to Israel if they had the power? This is disturbing and scary stuff.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2707322/Heads-sticks-Sick-ISIS-video-emerges-showing-50-beheaded-Syrian-soldiers-impaled-poles-held-aloft-Raqqa-city.html

Hamas's Charter specifically states for Muslims to destroy the state of Israel and blames Jews for a whole host of world events. A modern day Mein Kampf or the 'Elders of Zion'. The only difference between Hamas and ISIS is that Hamas are incapable of lashing out militarily against its enemy. ISIS a few hundred miles away is armed and is well capable of killing anyone (Muslim, Christain, Jew, Atheist) because there is no strong state nearby to resist them.

jank · 29-07-2014 8:06am

Recondite49 wrote: »

It's precisely because a violent insurrection took place that you can sit in an Irish leafy suburb and be governed by other Irish people - the situation of the people in Palestine is little different to that of the Irish rebels who fought and won their freedom in my view.

Which ironically gave rise to the type of Irish 'republicanism' we are still dealing with today. The type where the country was destroyed economically, ceeding quite a lot of power to the RCC, the subjugation of Irish 'culture' on the population and one where women lost more freedom then they would have otherwise had if we had stayed with the path of Home Rule.....

Violent revolutions rarely if ever have happy endings.

MrPudding · 29-07-2014 8:19am

Corkfeen wrote: »

How exactly can you view the bombing of schools,hospitals and playgrounds as acceptable? I do not approve of the actions of Hamas but this does not lead to Israel's actions being acceptable. The vast majority of the casualties are civilians,there have been people targeted that were clearly not members of Hamas. You'll also find that there are many Israelis that do not agree with their government's actions.

Every time Israel ends up in these horrible engagements every few years, they bolster support for Hamas. If you want to destroy support for Hamas,one of the more credible ways of destroying support for them is to end the blockade and stick by the 1967 borders. Killing civilians that include children is definitely not going to work.

Great broadcast from Jon Snow a few days back btw. It's probably one of the most powerful news moments I've seen in a long time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mR1LGoNg5p4

Jon Snow is an amazing journalist. He definitely knows something. If you have not read his biography I could not recommend it enough.

MrP

jank · 29-07-2014 8:22am

Corkfeen wrote: »

How exactly can you view the bombing of schools,hospitals and playgrounds as acceptable?

Where did I say its acceptable? Please quote me on that.

Corkfeen wrote: »

I do not approve of the actions of Hamas but...

Did anyone protest and ask Hamas to stop firing rockets to Israel? Over 2000 so far during the present skirmish. A war normally takes two to tango. I would have asked both parties to stop fighting, not just one.

Corkfeen wrote: »

this does not lead to Israel's actions being acceptable. The vast majority of the casualties are civilians,there have been people targeted that were clearly not members of Hamas. You'll also find that there are many Israelis that do not agree with their government's actions.

Where did I or Sam Harris say that their actions are acceptable? Did you even read or listen to the audio?

Where is the evidence that Israel are deliberately targeting civilians. What do they have to gain from killing civilians? It is counter productive to kill civilians.

Hamas knows this so they fire off their rockets in populated urban areas where Israel have no choice but to retaliate. When children and civilians die, big win for Hamas as they gain international sympathy and if their is a bonus their own fighters get killed, go to heaven with 99 virgins, martyrs are created and a queue is formed to replace them. Can you imagine Israel or even any other country putting their own peoples lives at risk like that?

Corkfeen wrote: »

Every time Israel ends up in these horrible engagements every few years, they bolster support for Hamas. If you want to destroy support for Hamas,one of the more credible ways of destroying support for them is to end the blockade and stick by the 1967 borders. Killing civilians that include children is definitely not going to work.

The 1967 borders are long gone. A consequence of losing the 6 day war. Them the breaks. If you lose a war you can't go home crying to your uncle asking for a rerun.

I do agree with a two state solution but how and what that entails remains to be seen. Israel holds all the cards and possession is 9/10th of the law. The Palestinian people should be looking for better leadership rather then the suicidal leadership displayed by Hamas the past few years. Launching rockets into Israel from Gaza as won them NOTHING but lots of death and destruction. If you are militarily unable to pursue a campaign then why persist? The cult of Martyrdom remains strong in Gaza.

Delirium · 29-07-2014 8:26am

MrPudding wrote: »

Jon Snow is an amazing journalist. He definitely knows something. If you have not read his biography I could not recommend it enough.

MrP

+1

very good read.

Sam Harris on the Israel-Palestine Conflict

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