Sam Harris on the Israel-Palestine Conflict

Right Turn Clyde wrote: »

Harris' latest piece made me reassess the on-going conflict. I've always viewed Israel as an aggressor, so reading about its inherent vulnerability put a fresh perspective on things. However, I do feel that Harris is quite forgiving of Israel and that doesn't sit easy with me. But I'm quite ignorant of this issue in general, so what do I know. I suspect there's more informed opinions on here, so I'm just wondering what you make of Harris' position?

You have to remember that every single act of "aggression" by either of the parties in the Palestinian state against Israel is perfectly legitimate and legal under international law. As Israel is the agressor, and illegal occupier of another state in this conflict they are the ones comitting the criminal acts.

That is one of the biggest facts on the ground that Sam Harris and other defenders of the state of Israel would like you to never know, that Israel are the perpetrators of this crime and Palestine and the people living in it are the victims.

jank wrote: »

Attempting to kill Israeli civilians in a Tel Aviv restaurant via suicide bombing or launching rockets indiscriminately and blindly into a urban areas is legal Under international law? Sorry but going have to call for proof of this.

As I said before, you seem to be holding Hamas to a much higher standard than was the case during your own war of independence. It would seem some people are all too willing to enjoy the benefits freedom brings without remembering how it's achieved.

Gbear wrote: »

I think Harris is pretty explicit in saying that Isreal really aren't the good guys - they're just a bit less **** than the alternative.

There's an ideological position which would probably dictate a two-state solution and the prosecution of both Israeli and Palestinian war criminals but in practice it's very difficult to see that happening.

Nothing short of the UN steaming in and occupying the problematic areas would solve the problem but for obvious reasons (mostly to do with the US and the political realities there that ensure perpetual support for Israel) it's just not going to happen.

If there's going to be peace it's going to happen on Israel's terms. It's not fair, but it's probably the best we can hope for.

I think we can hope better than that.

jank wrote: »

Our own war of independence was directed at the British establishment and military based in Ireland. If Collins and co. ordered young Irish men to strap dynamite to themselves, walk into a bustling London Restaurant and blow themselves up as a sort of pseudo religious blood sacrifice I and many others would be appalled at such an action and you would quickly find sympathy to the Irish cause disappear fast.

You're not seriously saying that the Irish War of Independence didn't result in civilian casualties do you? I realise it's very difficult to number the dead in this conflict but found this page here which puts the number as high as 61.

Of course you might argue that the civilian casualties were not deliberate, although the subsequent campaign by the IRA certainly did - their point, to which I do sympathise to an extent was that every British person in Ireland was there unjustly and illegally.

When visiting the Facebook page for the Irish Socialist Party, there's been a lot of posters on there targeting Americans, asking how they would feel if someone invaded their country and gradually usurped their land and way of life - when speaking to Irish people, there's no need for you to imagine, it actually happened.

To cut a long story short, we also know that your war came as the result of decades of trying to negotiate a peaceful secession from the United Kingdom. War was the last resort and it would have been obvious to both sides that there would be civilian casualties.

It beggars belief that any Israeli occupying Palestine today is unaware of the risks involved in staying there. Also while the feeble rocket attacks by Hamas have not been very effective in killing innocent people, Israel has been much more capable at massacring civilians just to prove their dominance.

This is what Hamas and Fatah to some extent preach and brain wash into young children from the day they are born. One would think in an A&A forum this action would be described for what it is. People in power exploiting young vulnerable men and women to further their own aims through dogma and doctrine via some holy text and scripture.

You won't find any argument from me if you want to say religion is a useful tool to gain conscripts. It doesn't automatically follow however that the only basis on which the Palestinian people have a claim to their land is religious, nor that they aren't entitled to repel an occupying power, as the Irish did.

Regardless, I will repeat. Firing rockets indiscriminately into civilian population centers and sending young people to blow themselves up in buses and cafes is NOT legal under international law as claimed, so lets just nip that one in the bud first and foremost.

I'm impressed by your regard for the law. Of course the Israeli occupation of the West Bank has been ruled illegal too. Support from the US and other countries has allowed Israel to flout the law - once again it seems a double standard is being applied.

The question of the original settlement of Palestine was also in violation of international law but no one seems to get too upset over this - indeed whenever someone criticises it there seems to be some irritation that the Palestinians won't allow their country to be partitioned.

Also to go back to the analogy of the Irish War of Independence -had that been ruled illegal by the League of Nations because someone had decided the number of civilian casualties was too high, would that then automatically have made the cause in which they were fighting unjust?

And yes, the IDF are trigger happy, I do not agree with settlements or the occupation but I failed to see the situation being helped by the above terrorist actions when they have failed for decades and achieved nothing but death and the cult of martyrdom.

Again I'll refer you to your own War of Independence - violent insurrection may have been a last resort but it was what allows you know to sit in front of your desk sipping an espresso with a copy of the Constitution on the wall and use your civil rights to criticise the methods used by others to win theirs.

Turtwig wrote: »

The really funny thing about this conflict is that it's still in Israel's interest to ensure Hamas remain powerful enough to be the dominant force just not powerful enough to actually seriously hurt Israel.

Of course. Who do you think created Hamas in the first place? Just like with the CIA and Al-Qaeda, Mossad's love child with a half blind extremist is now something which is a danger to Israeli goals of domination over the Palestinians and their eventual expulsion to create an "empty land" for the settlers to move into "Greater Israel".

Sam Harris goes into detail about the tactic of Muslims firing rifles over the shoulders of their own civilians, and how effective this is at stopping the IDF from returning fire, and how ridiculous it would be for IDF to adopt the same tactic. Yet there seems to be no evidence of this actually happening?
Its odd that he elaborates so much on what seems to be a strawman argument.

What if Israel itself was a terrorist regime, which had cultivated for itself a veneer of western style respectability over the years. Consider the facts;
It all began with classic terrorist attacks, such as the King David Hotel bombing which were perpetrated against the (then) British administration. The terrorist leader was Menachim Begin, a future PM of Israel. These terrorists were religious fanatics; the worst kind

The British eventually announced their intention to pull out of Palestine, and set the date for May of 1948.

In the three months leading up to that, the terrorists set about the ethnic cleansing of the country, so that they would be in a position to start off a new zionist theocracy with "a clean slate" as it were. Whole villages were cleared of their Arab populations. On the day the British left, the jewish state of Israel was announced.
Everything that has happened since then results from those actions, and follows on in the same vein. Occasionally the Arabs have tried to fight back, but they always lose. They have become so angry that they probably would annihilate Israel if they could.

We will never know what would have happened if moderate jews and arabs had tried to set up a secular state together, because the terrorists successfully pre-empted that possibility with a violent takeover, and have maintained their zionist state ever since.