What evidence of Gerry Adams' IRA membership do people need?

MakeEmLaugh · 02-05-2014 4:25pm #1

I find it exhaustingly repetitive, whenever anyone mentions the fact of Gerry Adams' membership of the IRA, that many people are quick to jump in and say something along the lines of "If you have any evidence of Gerry Adams' membership of the IRA, I'd like to hear it".

Exactly what more evidence do these people need?

Let's look at this way.

EVIDENCE GERRY ADAMS WAS IN THE IRA

* The fact that there are photographs of Adams at an IRA funeral in Belfast in 1971, as part of the cortege, wearing an IRA uniform and standing beside Martin Meehan (a man who never denied he was a member of the IRA).

* The fact that Adams flew to England in 1972 to negotiate on behalf of the IRA during a short-lived truce, along with Martin McGuiness, Sean Mac Stiofain Daithi O'Conaill, Seamus Twomey and Ivor Bell, all of whom were in the IRA (why would all these IRA men bring a non-IRA man with them to negotiate on behalf of their organisation?).

* The fact that Adams wrote columns for An Phoblacht, the IRA's newspaper, under the pseudonym 'Brownie', and in 1976 wrote an article stating the following

"Rightly or wrongly, I am an IRA volunteer and, rightly or wrongly, I take a course of action as a means to bringing about a situation in which I believe the people of my country will prosper. The course I take involves the use of physical force, but only if I achieve the situation where my people can genuinely prosper can my course of action be seen, by me, to have been justified . . . I cannot complain if I am hurt, if I am killed or if I am imprisoned. I must consider these things as possible and probable eventualities . . . I have no one to blame but myself."

* The fact that Mario Biaggi, a former US Representative and Roman Catholic of Italian descent, maintains that Gerry Adams refused any suggestions of an IRA truce in 1979, when they met in the Europa Hotel in Belfast in 1979. (Again, why would a man who claims to have never been a member of the IRA refuse any suggestions of an IRA truce? And why would Biaggi, with no dog in the hunt on either side, lie about such an event?)

* The fact that historians and journalists (Ed Moloney, Peter Taylor, Mark Urban, Richard English) have repeatedly stated that Gerry Adams was in the IRA, and not a single one has ever been sued by Adams.

* The fact that former IRA members such as Sean O'Callaghan, Anthony McIntrye, Brendan Hughes, Richard O'Rawe and Sean Mac Stiofain have all said that Adams was in the IRA.

EVIDENCE GERRY ADAMS WAS NOT IN THE IRA

* Adams says he wasn't.

As far as I am concerned, anyone at this stage who asks for evidence of Adams' IRA membership is one of either two things

(1) Obstinate, and refusing to admit that they believe Adams was a member of the IRA because they are glad he got away with it.
(2) Genuinely unintelligent.

Or perhaps someone could suggest what magical, hitherto-unseen evidence we need to prove Adams was in the IRA?

comongethappy · 02-05-2014 4:28pm

I'm not sure this needs a separate thread?

I wasn't aware anyone on this island genuinely believes Adams was NOT in the IRA!

hatrickpatrick · 02-05-2014 4:46pm

I've always assumed he was in the IRA, what's news to me is that he was the leader. I always thought Adams was #2 and McGuinness was #1.

Sand · 02-05-2014 7:31pm

The OP should be stickied in the NI subforum as a reference for the sometimes tiresome topics on the matter. Other than that, a small, hard core element amongst Provo supporters seem to care a great deal about denying Adams was (is?) a member of the PIRA. Everyone else is sure he was. The people in denial aren't really interested in examining the evidence in an objective manner to reach a conclusion - they're not looking for any evidence.

maccored · 02-05-2014 7:37pm

none of those facts say anything.

your first fact is that he was at a funeral.

your second fact ignore the *actual* fact that it was a meeting with the republican movement, and not solely the IRA.

Fact three thinks you have to be in the IRA to write for an Phoblacht - which wasnt an ira newspaper .. its was an is a republican one. I used to buy it ffs, and Ive never been in the ira. nevermind that you obviously lost the context in which the brownie quote comes from. proof of encouraging IRA members maybe - but he's never denied that.

Next point - i dont know what you are saying. Adams negotiated the IRA position during the peace process too. when did he ever deny having close contact with the ira?

Second last point again doesnt really work with reality. for a start, sinn fein dont tend to sue. anyone. ever. but it'll be interesting if he is released without charge from his current location as after that he could easily sue and use the PSNI interviews as proof of his innocence.

As for the last point ... try and find someone who doesnt hate adams because of the peace process and the idea that sinn fein sold out. all youve done is pointed out people who have issues with adams and SF.

Finally - where is the actual, real, tangible, undeniable proof he was in the IRA? After all those years that the British Government was spying on everyone in the north, I'm sure they'd have proof of such a prominent activist such as Adams had he actually been an actual active IRA volunteer.

maccored · 02-05-2014 7:39pm

Personally I just like to have proof someone is guilty of something before I believe it. Rather than a lot of people just saying 'other people say its true, so then it must be'. You mustnt mix up justice and gossip.

Sand wrote: »

The OP should be stickied in the NI subforum as a reference for the sometimes tiresome topics on the matter. Other than that, a small, hard core element amongst Provo supporters seem to care a great deal about denying Adams was (is?) a member of the PIRA. Everyone else is sure he was. The people in denial aren't really interested in examining the evidence in an objective manner to reach a conclusion - they're not looking for any evidence.

Villain · 02-05-2014 9:58pm

Sand wrote: »

The OP should be stickied in the NI subforum as a reference for the sometimes tiresome topics on the matter. Other than that, a small, hard core element amongst Provo supporters seem to care a great deal about denying Adams was (is?) a member of the PIRA. Everyone else is sure he was. The people in denial aren't really interested in examining the evidence in an objective manner to reach a conclusion - they're not looking for any evidence.

I'm not a hardcore Provo supporter and I'm not sure he was so that "Everyone else" you use is incorrect.

MakeEmLaugh · 02-05-2014 10:05pm

maccored wrote: »

none of those facts say anything.

your first fact is that he was at a funeral.

your second fact ignore the *actual* fact that it was a meeting with the republican movement, and not solely the IRA.

Fact three thinks you have to be in the IRA to write for an Phoblacht - which wasnt an ira newspaper .. its was an is a republican one. I used to buy it ffs, and Ive never been in the ira. nevermind that you obviously lost the context in which the brownie quote comes from. proof of encouraging IRA members maybe - but he's never denied that.

Next point - i dont know what you are saying. Adams negotiated the IRA position during the peace process too. when did he ever deny having close contact with the ira?

Second last point again doesnt really work with reality. for a start, sinn fein dont tend to sue. anyone. ever. but it'll be interesting if he is released without charge from his current location as after that he could easily sue and use the PSNI interviews as proof of his innocence.

As for the last point ... try and find someone who doesnt hate adams because of the peace process and the idea that sinn fein sold out. all youve done is pointed out people who have issues with adams and SF.

Finally - where is the actual, real, tangible, undeniable proof he was in the IRA? After all those years that the British Government was spying on everyone in the north, I'm sure they'd have proof of such a prominent activist such as Adams had he actually been an actual active IRA volunteer.

MakeEmLaugh wrote: »

As far as I am concerned, anyone at this stage who asks for evidence of Adams' IRA membership is one of either two things

(1) Obstinate, and refusing to admit that they believe Adams was a member of the IRA because they are glad he got away with it.
(2) Genuinely unintelligent.

Or perhaps someone could suggest what magical, hitherto-unseen evidence we need to prove Adams was in the IRA?

This is exactly the type of person I was talking about.

Not only does he fail to mention what "actual, real, tangible, undeniable proof" would be needed to prove Adams was in the IRA, he also seems unable to read properly.

No one said reading An Phoblacht, or even writing for An Phoblacht, made you an IRA member. However, if you write a column stating "I am an IRA volunteer", erm... yeah, I think that's reason enough to believe that someone might be in the IRA.

Also, there's a big difference between attending a funeral as a ordinarily dressed punter, and standing alongside an IRA member, dressed in an identical IRA uniform.

Tramps Like Us · 02-05-2014 10:20pm

MakeEmLaugh wrote: »

I find it exhaustingly repetitive, whenever anyone mentions the fact of Gerry Adams' membership of the IRA, that many people are quick to jump in and say something along the lines of "If you have any evidence of Gerry Adams' membership of the IRA, I'd like to hear it".

Exactly what more evidence do these people need?

Let's look at this way.

EVIDENCE GERRY ADAMS WAS IN THE IRA

* The fact that there are photographs of Adams at an IRA funeral in Belfast in 1971, as part of the cortege, wearing an IRA uniform and standing beside Martin Meehan (a man who never denied he was a member of the IRA).

This is not evidence of anything other than Adams being a republican. Many people have been in colour parties over the years, this does not mean that they were in the IRA (in fact most of the time it means they are not!)

* The fact that Adams flew to England in 1972 to negotiate on behalf of the IRA during a short-lived truce, along with Martin McGuiness, Sean Mac Stiofain Daithi O'Conaill, Seamus Twomey and Ivor Bell, all of whom were in the IRA (why would all these IRA men bring a non-IRA man with them to negotiate on behalf of their organisation?).

They went on behalf of the republican movement. Adams presumably went as a rep of Sinn Féin and the younger northern leadersip. Sean Mac Stiofáin was annoyed at the time (as he says in his book) that "non military" people were included.

* The fact that Adams wrote columns for An Phoblacht, the IRA's newspaper, under the pseudonym 'Brownie', and in 1976 wrote an article stating the following

"Rightly or wrongly, I am an IRA volunteer and, rightly or wrongly, I take a course of action as a means to bringing about a situation in which I believe the people of my country will prosper. The course I take involves the use of physical force, but only if I achieve the situation where my people can genuinely prosper can my course of action be seen, by me, to have been justified . . . I cannot complain if I am hurt, if I am killed or if I am imprisoned. I must consider these things as possible and probable eventualities . . . I have no one to blame but myself."

I have a couple of coloumns for An Phoblacht. And have sold the damn thing (nowadays you can buy it in every newsagent around the country). You should also be aware that many people wrote under the pseudonym "Brownie" in APRN and articles were a collaborative effort from those in jail.(including Brendan Hughes and others in "Cage 11" in Long Kesh)

* The fact that historians and journalists (Ed Moloney, Peter Taylor, Mark Urban, Richard English) have repeatedly stated that Gerry Adams was in the IRA, and not a single one has ever been sued by Adams.

So if I accuse you of being something and you dont sue me it means its true?

* The fact that former IRA members such as Sean O'Callaghan, Anthony McIntrye, Brendan Hughes, Richard O'Rawe and Sean Mac Stiofain have all said that Adams was in the IRA.

All of whom hated Adams and are/were against the peace process.

EVIDENCE GERRY ADAMS WAS NOT IN THE IRA

* Adams says he wasn't.

As far as I am concerned, anyone at this stage who asks for evidence of Adams' IRA membership is one of either two things

(1) Obstinate, and refusing to admit that they believe Adams was a member of the IRA because they are glad he got away with it.
(2) Genuinely unintelligent.

Or perhaps someone could suggest what magical, hitherto-unseen evidence we need to prove Adams was in the IRA?

Finally I'll ask, does anyone care if he was or not?

alastair · 02-05-2014 11:31pm

Tramps Like Us wrote: »

This is not evidence of anything other than Adams being a republican. Many people have been in colour parties over the years, this does not mean that they were in the IRA (in fact most of the time it means they are not!)

Of course! Because Republicans typically dress up in paramilitary uniforms and parade about in the company of similar gents who have been proven to be active IRA members. He's probably the odd one out, because they couldn't make the full complement of 'actual' 'ra men. :rolleyes:

Tramps Like Us · 02-05-2014 11:40pm

alastair wrote: »

Of course! Because Republicans typically dress up in paramilitary uniforms and parade about in the company of similar gents who have been proven to be active IRA members. He's probably the odd one out, because they couldn't make the full complement of 'actual' 'ra men. :rolleyes:

Most republicans will have been in a color party at some time or another. I have been and if you accuse me of being a member of IRA on the back of that you'll be making a generous donation to a charity of my choice pretty quickly. Seen as the IRA was a SECRET army they were rarely so obliging to the RUC as to dress up and parade around bold as brass with their faces exposed for the cops to take some nice pics, note their names and follow them around - ordinary people made up these colour parties not IRA volunteers.

There are colour partys at every republican funeral, march or commemoration and there always has been.

relaxed · 02-05-2014 11:44pm

Key word for me is Army. Was tony Blair ever in the British army? Never caused a problem with him sending troops to Iraq, attending military funerals and events. Same for thatcher, bush, Churchill, Obama, ADAMS etc.

Unless he was running around with a gun or making Semtex bombs etc. then I don't think it's fair to say he was a in the ira

Obama ordered bin ladins execution directly I think, don't think it makes him a soldier.

BillyBoy13 · 03-05-2014 12:01am

I'm not a republican, and definitely not a Gerry Adams supporter.... however I would have to say out of the all the points you raised only your first point appears to carry any weight. The rest of the points are a bit wish washy.

alastair · 03-05-2014 12:08am

Tramps Like Us wrote: »

Most republicans will have been in a color party at some time or another. I have been and if you accuse me of being a member of IRA on the back of that you'll be making a generous donation to a charity of my choice pretty quickly. Seen as the IRA was a SECRET army they were rarely so obliging to the RUC as to dress up and parade around bold as brass with their faces exposed for the cops to take some nice pics, note their names and follow them around - ordinary people made up these colour parties not IRA volunteers.

There are colour partys at every republican funeral, march or commemoration and there always has been.

Given that the rest of this particular colour party were active and subsequently convicted IRA men, I think your theory doesn't hold much value in this case. But glad to hear you get your kicks playing soldier dress-up from time to time.

Karl Stein · 03-05-2014 12:39am

If you study that photo carefully you'll note that the beret Adams is wearing is really really really dark blue instead of black.

That fact alone absolves him of all accusations of PIRA membership.

maccored · 03-05-2014 12:40am

MakeEmLaugh wrote: »

This is exactly the type of person I was talking about.

yay! Its another person who thinks being insulting and bullish is going to get them somewhere!

Not only does he fail to mention what "actual, real, tangible, undeniable proof" would be needed to prove Adams was in the IRA, he also seems unable to read properly.

I dont need to tell you what proof is required. What proof has been found? That'll be good enough

No one said reading An Phoblacht, or even writing for An Phoblacht, made you an IRA member. However, if you write a column stating "I am an IRA volunteer", erm... yeah, I think that's reason enough to believe that someone might be in the IRA.

So he couldnt have been writing a piece in order to boost morale? or would everything he would have written have to be absolutely true, and based on himself? Whats next, arresting every author who wrote a crimes story?

Also, there's a big difference between attending a funeral as a ordinarily dressed punter, and standing alongside an IRA member, dressed in an identical IRA uniform.

He never denied mixing with IRA people - thats why you;d find him at an ira funeral near ira people. The IRA didnt have a 'uniform'.

Phoebas · 03-05-2014 1:54am

There isn't a person in the country who doesn't believe Adams wasn't in the IRA. Even the people who deny ^^ it do it in a playful way, with the most unbelievable arguments that most normal people would immediately dismiss.

Seaneh · 03-05-2014 2:04am

alastair wrote: »

Of course! Because Republicans typically dress up in paramilitary uniforms and parade about in the company of similar gents who have been proven to be active IRA members. He's probably the odd one out, because they couldn't make the full complement of 'actual' 'ra men. :rolleyes:

My uncle was buried in Athlone January 2013.
He was a well known member of Sinn Fein, he was not, ever, a member of the IRA. During his funeral he was given a guard of honour by local Sinn Fein members, none of which were members of the IRA, all of who wore colours (beret, sweater, shirt, tie and slacks and black shoes).
Do you think people would march in colours so openly if it was such an obvious indicator of membership of an illegal organisation?
Don't be so daft.

alastair · 03-05-2014 2:11am

Seaneh wrote: »

My uncle was buried in Athlone January 2013.
He was a well known member of Sinn Fein, he was not, ever, a member of the IRA. During his funeral he was given a guard of honour by local Sinn Fein members, none of which were members of the IRA, all of who wore colours (beret, sweater, shirt, tie and slacks and black shoes).
Do you think people would march in colours so openly if it was such an obvious indicator of membership of an illegal organisation?
Don't be so daft.

And yet - of the three men in that photo, two are proven, convicted members of the IRA, and the other is the well known Gerry Adams - a self confessed 'IRA volunteer' according to his piece in AP, who other admitted IRA members state was Indeed an IRA member, and who was understood by Willy Whitelaw to have been part of an IRA delegation he met in '73. Either all of these facts are remarkable coincidental mistaken beliefs, or it's just there's a third IRA man in that particular 'colour party'.

twowheelsgood · 03-05-2014 2:12am

Phoebas wrote: »

There isn't a person in the country who doesn't believe Adams wasn't in the IRA. Even the people who deny ^^ it do it in a playful way, with the most unbelievable arguments that most normal people would immediately dismiss.

What's bizarre is that is makes no sense to deny that Adams was in the 'RA if you believe that the activities of the PIRA were, in the main, justified.

If they insist that the actions of the IRA were justified and observe that Adams fully endorsed the actions of the IRA then Adams being in the IRA would be a perfectly acceptable, even noble position for him to take to take.

That there are some republicans, who in heady mix of confusion and hilarity, actual take umbrage at the suggestion that Adams was a "member" and amusingly suggest that to say so might be libellous (:pac:) suggests to me that they don't truly believe that the activities of the IRA were in fact justified, despite their protestations to the contrary.

Seaneh · 03-05-2014 2:16am

alastair wrote: »

And yet - of the three men in that photo, two are proven, convicted members of the IRA, and the other is the well known Gerry Adams - a self confessed 'IRA volunteer' according to his piece in AP, who other admitted IRA members state was Indeed an IRA member, and who was understood by Willy Whitelaw to have been part of an IRA delegation he met in '73. Either all of these facts are remarkable coincidental mistaken beliefs, or it's just there's a third IRA man in that particular 'colour party'.

So because some members of a funeral colour party are members of the IRA that must mean all members of colour parties are members of the IRA.

Genius logic there, well done.

alastair · 03-05-2014 2:19am

Seaneh wrote: »

So because some members of a funeral colour party are members of the IRA that must mean all members of colour parties are members of the IRA.

Genius logic there, well done.

Who claimed any such thing? All sorts of idiots like playing dress-up in uniform. Just because none of the Shinners wearing berets at your da's funeral may not have been IRA men, doesn't mean that they were not in that photo. They in fact were, and there's ample discreet, independent, evidence that Adams was too.

Seaneh · 03-05-2014 2:21am

alastair wrote: »

Just because none of the Shinners wearing berets at your da's funeral may not have been IRA men, doesn't mean that they were not in that photo. They in fact were, and there's ample discreet, independent, evidence that Adams was too.

Do you even bother to read posts. Uncle's funeral.
My father, a retired member of the Permanent Defence Forces, is very much alive.
If you're going to call other people "idiots" I suggest you master the comprehension of the English language first.

Phoebas · 03-05-2014 2:23am

Seaneh wrote: »

My uncle was buried in Athlone January 2013.
He was a well known member of Sinn Fein, he was not, ever, a member of the IRA. During his funeral he was given a guard of honour by local Sinn Fein members, none of which were members of the IRA, all of who wore colours (beret, sweater, shirt, tie and slacks and black shoes).
Do you think people would march in colours so openly if it was such an obvious indicator of membership of an illegal organisation?
Don't be so daft.

So the people who weren't members of the secret paramilitary organisation were dressed in the garb normally associated with that organisation at a republican funeral, but, if they were really members of a secret paramilitary organisation they wouldn't be turning up dressed in paramilitary garb because that would be an obvious indicator of membership?

If I'm to understand you, what you say is an obvious indicator of membership of an illegal organisation (turning up at a republican funeral dressed in paramilitary garb) is, in fact, an obvious indicator of not being a member of that organisation, because its just too damn obvious.

alastair · 03-05-2014 2:24am

Seaneh wrote: »

Do you even bother to read posts. Uncle's funeral.
My father, a retired member of the Permanent Defence Forces, is very much alive.

Correction - your uncle's funeral. My point stands however.

As to comprehension of the English language - I'm not the one rolling out misattributed straw man arguments.

Seaneh · 03-05-2014 2:26am

Phoebas wrote: »

So the people who weren't members of the secret paramilitary organisation were dressed in the garb normally associated with that organisation at a republican funeral, but, if they were really members of a secret paramilitary organisation they wouldn't be turning up dressed in paramilitary garb because that would be an obvious indicator of membership?

If I'm to understand you, what you say is an obvious indicator of membership of an illegal organisation (turning up at a republican funeral dressed in paramilitary garb) is, in fact, an obvious indicator of not being a member of that organisation, because its just too damn obvious.

I, as a previous poster has also said, am saying that participation in a colour party at a funeral is not an indication of membership of an illegal organisation.

If it was indication of membership of an illegal organisation, it would be an astoundingly stupid thing to do in the centre on a major urban centre, less than 100 meters from a Garda Barracks.

It would be like a drug dealer walking around shouting "look at me, I sell heroin, please monitor my movements Mr. Gardai Man!".

The garbs normally associated with IRA members are khaki fatigues by the way, not shirts, ties and berets.

Phoebas · 03-05-2014 2:30am

Seaneh wrote: »

I, as a previous poster has also said, am saying that participation in a colour party at a funeral is not an indication of membership of an illegal organisation.

If it was indication of membership of an illegal organisation, it would be an astoundingly stupid thing to do in the centre on a major urban centre, less than 100 meters from a Garda Barracks.

It would be like a drug dealer walking around shouting "look at me, I sell heroin, please monitor my movements Mr. Gardai Man!".

Of course participation in a colour party at a funeral is an indication of membership of an illegal organisation. Its not concrete proof for sure, but a pretty strong indication.

alastair · 03-05-2014 2:31am

Seaneh wrote: »

I, as a previous poster has also said, am saying that participation in a colour party at a funeral is not an indication of membership of an illegal organisation.

If it was indication of membership of an illegal organisation, it would be an astoundingly stupid thing to do in the centre on a major urban centre, less than 100 meters from a Garda Barracks.

It would be like a drug dealer walking around shouting "look at me, I sell heroin, please monitor my movements Mr. Gardai Man!".

A colour party is a representation of a (para)military organisation. That's the intent. Now not all participants in said representation might be actual members, but rather the kind of idiot that would pass themselves off as a proxy for said organisation, but in some cases - as in the photo with Adams - they are actual members of said (para)military organisation. So your drug dealer analogy makes little sense.

Seaneh · 03-05-2014 2:33am

Just to illustrate something that is ridiculously obvious to those without the cognitive ability to figure it out for themselves, here's the difference between members of an illegal organisation at a funeral and members of a colour party at a funeral, note the difference in attire and facial coverings (or lack thereof).

IRA members at a funeral:

Gerry Adams at a funeral:

I hope this helps you get over your mental block.

alastair · 03-05-2014 2:35am

Seaneh wrote: »

IRA members at a funeral:

Edited for accuracy.

Seaneh · 03-05-2014 2:38am

alastair wrote: »

Edited for accuracy.

Yup, definitely looks like he's dressed as a member of a military organisation.

Blazer, shirt, tie, beret... Next time I see a black rock boy in a beret I'll make sure to be cautious around him.

:rolleyes:

What evidence of Gerry Adams' IRA membership do people need?

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