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Children penalised for the actions of parents

  • 18-09-2012 1:40pm
    #1
    Biggins
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    Irish children penalised for the actions of parents...

    Is this what our state has come to?
    EDUCATION Minister Ruairi Quinn this morning defended Clare County Council for refusing to approve third-level student grants unless their parents had paid the €100 household charge.
    http://www.independent.ie/lifestyle/education/latest-news/fury-as-council-blocks-student-grants-over-household-charge-3233555.html

    I'm NOT here to argue for/against the household charge - there's a thread for that HERE.
    ...Have our present government become so low and fcuking bitter that they are hitting out at offspring for what is clearly the separate decisions of others?

    Feel free to disagree with me but I think its fcuking disgusting!

    Poll: Should grant holders have to prove payment of the household charge? 263 votes

    Yes
    0% 0 votes
    No
    50% 133 votes
    Unsure
    49% 130 votes


«134567…15

Comments

  • #2
    super_furry
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,349 ✭✭✭✭super_furry


    I'd love to see it challenged in court because I doubt it would stand up.


  • #3
    Hacuna Matata
    Registered Users Posts: 22 ✭Hacuna Matata


    That's ridiculous...


  • #4
    allibastor
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,520 ✭✭✭allibastor


    welcome to Ireland. Home of the most rediculos government ever. whats next, dont pay your TV licence and have your first born taken.


  • #5
    Biggins
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    What next?

    Don't pay your TV licence?
    Your kids are penalised!

    Don't pay your car tax?
    Your kids are penalised!

    Don't pay a fine?
    Your kids are penalised!

    The above might be only an extreme - but the government has now opened that door!


  • #6
    oldyouth
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,754 ✭✭✭oldyouth


    These students rely on the status of their parents income to qualify for the grant, so what's the problem in taking their other circumstances into consideration?


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  • #7
    Medu
    Registered Users Posts: 74 ✭✭Medu


    Biggins wrote: »
    Feel free to disagree with me but I think its fcuking disgusting!

    So it's disgusting that people are forced to pay their taxes? The only way that 'Children' will be penalised is if their parents aren't able to see that paying €100 to receive thousands in return is a fairly good deal.


  • #8
    Biggins
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    Medu wrote: »
    So it's disgusting that people are forced to pay their taxes? The only way that 'Children' will be penalised is if their parents aren't able to see that paying €100 to receive thousands in return is a fairly good deal.

    Can you read?

    Children penalised for the actions of parents is disgusting.
    Are you that blind you can't make that out?

    So its ok to hit out at children because of the actions of their parents!
    Get a fcuking grip and kop yourself on!


  • #9
    CuriousG
    Registered Users Posts: 420 ✭✭CuriousG


    The most ridiculous thing I have ever heard!


  • #10
    mikom
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,391 ✭✭✭✭mikom


    I know some children that are not going to be penalised..........
    Clare
    County manager (Tom Coughlan): €142,469
    Chief veterinary inspector: €93,436 to €109,927
    4 directors of services: €90,453 to €106,900
    2 senior engineers: €73,223 to €87,117
    Chief fire officer: €73,223 to €87,117
    Senior executive officer: €64,426 to €84,036
    * What the top 10 earn: €1,025,383
    http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/organisations-are-top-heavy-with-high-earners-189877.html
    .
    .


  • #11
    Valetta
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,611 ✭✭✭Valetta


    The criteria for qualifying for a grant is based on the parents income.

    It seems perpectly reasonable to me to ensure they are tax compliant before approving a grant.

    This has been the case in business for years. A Company will not be approved for grant assistance unless the directors can produce a Tax Compliance certificate.

    If the parents don't want the children to be "punished", they should pay their dues.


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  • #12
    mikom
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,391 ✭✭✭✭mikom


    Valetta wrote: »
    The criteria for qualifying for a grant is based on the parents income.

    It seems perpectly reasonable to me to ensure they are tax compliant before approving a grant.

    This has been the case in business for years. A Company will not be approved for grant assistance unless the directors can produce a Tax Compliance certificate.

    If the parents don't want the children to be "punished", they should pay their dues.

    Hello Alistar.


  • #13
    Anyone
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,376 ✭✭✭Anyone


    Anybody going to college/university is not a child.


  • #14
    Biggins
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    oldyouth wrote: »
    These students rely on the status of their parents income to qualify for the grant, so what's the problem in taking their other circumstances into consideration?

    The circumstances being "incoming income" - you left that bit out.

    Not the possible crimes of others, be they parents!

    Anyone wrote: »
    Anybody going to college/university is not a child.
    Child/offspring - stupid idiotic argument over semantics!

    My kids at 18 will always be my children!


  • #15
    davet82
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,753 ✭✭✭davet82


    a new low...

    absoutle madness :mad:


  • #16
    MagicMarker
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 32,865 ✭✭✭✭MagicMarker


    What next?

    Education grant withheld because parents car's NCT is out of date.


  • #17
    uriah
    Registered Users Posts: 361 ✭✭uriah


    Biggins wrote: »
    Irish children penalised for the actions of parents...

    Is this what our state has come to?


    Children don't go to university.
    Children don't apply for third level grants.
    These are adults being assessed for grants on the basis of parents' income.

    Why should those parents who refuse to pay legitimate state taxes/levies/charges have their children benefit from state grants?
    The rest of us should pay so that they get the grants? Really?

    I applaud Clare County Council. I hope othe county councils (and all state bodies) follow their example.

    If you opt out of paying, you opt out of benefits. It's very simple.


  • #18
    UDP
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,188 ✭✭✭UDP


    If someone is going to be angry about this then should their anger not be that the parents income is looked at in the first place. If they are happy about the parents income being assessed then they should stfu about this since the children are already being penalised by the actions of their parents.


  • #19
    Anyone
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,376 ✭✭✭Anyone


    Biggins wrote: »


    Child/offspring - stupid idiotic argument over semantics!

    My kids at 18 will always be my children!

    Right, people were warned that if they didn't pay the Household charge, that local services would be reduced/removed. Now its happening, why are you appalled/surprised?

    Local authorities process grant claims, I dont see why exactly certain people should get a free service when others have to pay.


  • #20
    Biggins
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    UDP wrote: »
    If someone is going to be angry about this then should their anger not be that the parents income is looked at in the first place. If they are happy about the parents income being assessed then they should stfu about this since the children are already being penalised by the actions of their parents.

    Wot? :confused:


  • #21
    Maeve Obnoxious Hobo
    Posts: 0 CMod ✭✭✭✭ Maeve Obnoxious Hobo


    uriah wrote: »
    Children don't go to university.
    Children don't apply for third level grants.

    Plenty of under 18s do both


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  • #22
    eviltwin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    I'm worried about the precedent this will set. Will we have to prove we have paid car tax etc now in the future before we can access state money.


  • #23
    Sulla Felix
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,442 ✭✭✭Sulla Felix


    Biggins wrote: »
    What next?

    Don't pay your TV licence?
    Your kids are penalised!

    Don't pay your car tax?
    Your kids are penalised!

    Don't pay a fine?
    Your kids are penalised!

    The above might be only an extreme - but the government has now opened that door!
    You could argue that kids are punished in gthe above cases at least if financial penalties are imposed.


  • #24
    daheff
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,904 ✭✭✭daheff


    The whole 'Children' issue is (for the most part) not applicable. Most of these 'Children' are over 18 (save for some first years). As such its not really fair or equitable to use the college students' parents income as the basis for determination of grants for the student. However the problem lies in that if the body awarding the grants were to use the students income as the basis then every student would qualify (Save a very very small percentage).

    So what do the bodies awarding grants do? they award based off somebody elses income. While its (probably)not legal...its going to be very difficult to challenge this.

    By adding in a request (theres nothing from what i've heard that this is a requirement) to show a receipt for having paid the household tax, the bodies awarding the grants are just adding more complexity to the situation. What if the family involved rent accomodation? they wont have a receipt then to show.

    Its a sneaky way for the local council to try to find out who hasnt paid the tax.


  • #25
    Medu
    Registered Users Posts: 74 ✭✭Medu


    Biggins wrote: »
    The circumstances being "incoming income" - you left that bit out.

    Not the possible crimes of others, be they parents!



    Child/offspring - stupid idiotic argument over semantics!

    My kids at 18 will always be my children!

    Nearly all students need the support of their parents to pay for 3rd level. If one of the things that the parent needs to do is to pay their taxes then so be it. It would be very different if the government had decided that anyone that didn't pay their household charge pre June 1st would not be entitled to eligible for a grant this year.
    All this is going to do is give people an incentive to pay their tax. I happen to know a number of people that still haven't paid it for no other reason than they couldn't be bothered.


  • #26
    SEPT 23 1989
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 43,028 ✭✭✭✭SEPT 23 1989


    The students should riot over this


  • #27
    JRant
    Registered Users Posts: 13,151 ✭✭✭✭JRant


    Anyone wrote: »
    Anybody going to college/university is not a child.

    Try telling that to the local councils when applying. As far as they are concerned you are a 'dependant' while living at home or even living in student accomodation. Therefore in their eyes the student is still classed as a child.

    "Well, yeah, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man"



  • #28
    samina
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 329 ✭✭samina


    Anyone wrote: »
    Anybody going to college/university is not a child.

    I have a 17 year old in college she is a child.
    I'm exempt as the council have a share in my house. But I think it's shameful children and young adults who are entitled to the grant on the basis that their families have low incomes should be penalized like this because their parents havent paid. Even if they do pay it to get the grant it's just making a very long process even longer.


  • #29
    ejmaztec
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,118 ✭✭✭✭ejmaztec


    eviltwin wrote: »
    I'm worried about the precedent this will set. Will we have to prove we have paid car tax etc now in the future before we can access state money.

    Yep, and if you don't happen to own a car, you will be forced into buying one.


  • #30
    Biggins
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    Anyone wrote: »
    Right, people were warned that if they didn't pay the Household charge, that local services would be reduced/removed. Now its happening, why are you appalled/surprised?

    Local authorities process grant claims, I dont see why exactly certain people should get a free service when others have to pay.

    1. When is going to college anywhere in the country "local services? That's just stretching things completely to suit!

    2. Go after the parents then in court and get them to pay up!
    Whats the problem with that?
    No - but in the meanwhile, lets be so fcuking bitter that the state picks on the offspring - who are innocent by the way.
    They are a separate legal entity - well unless you remarkably can prove different!
    uriah wrote: »
    Children don't go to university.
    Children don't apply for third level grants.
    These are adults being assessed for grants on the basis of parents' income.

    Why should those parents who refuse to pay legitimate state taxes/levies/charges have their children benefit from state grants?
    The rest of us should pay so that they get the grants? Really?

    I applaud Clare County Council. I hope othe county councils (and all state bodies) follow their example.

    If you opt out of paying, you opt out of benefits. It's very simple.

    People are already paying hand over fist in many, many other ways to the state.
    You forgot to mention that!


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  • #31
    Zulu
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,965 ✭✭✭✭Zulu


    Biggins wrote: »
    Children penalised for the actions of parents is disgusting.
    Eh Biggins, are you looking to replicate sensationalist headlines?

    We always penalise children for the actions of their parents. Just because you are a parent, doesn't give you a "get-out-of-jail-free" card.

    You speed. You are fined. Your insurance rates increase. Your child is penalised.
    You kill someone. You are jailed. Your child is penalised.

    The grant is linked to the income of the parent. If you don't bother paying, you are depriving others. Frankly it's just that you are the first to suffer.

    "oh won't someone think of the children" :rolleyes:


  • #32
    Gurgle
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,064 ✭✭✭Gurgle


    Valetta wrote: »
    The criteria for qualifying for a grant is based on the parents income.

    It seems perpectly reasonable to me to ensure they are tax compliant before approving a grant.
    Flipping it on its head: Should parents be allowed to get away under-declaration of income in order for their children to 'qualify' for a grant?

    This is no different.

    The big stupid mistake in rolling out the household tax was placing the onus on the householder to pay it rather than just collecting it through the revenue.

    We have enough historical data to know that 'Pay as your caught' taxes don't work evenly or fairly. TV License anyone? Road tax? Green diesel?


  • #33
    littlejp
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 715 ✭✭✭littlejp


    eviltwin wrote: »
    I'm worried about the precedent this will set. Will we have to prove we have paid car tax etc now in the future before we can access state money.

    No. But you have to prove that your car is taxed if you want to drive your car on a public road.

    Why shouldn't people have to prove they have paid a tax which is to go towards local government services to avail of a local government service like a grant?


  • #34
    Anyone
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,376 ✭✭✭Anyone


    Biggins wrote: »
    1. When is going to college anywhere in the country "local services? That's just stretching things completely to suit!

    2. Go after the parents then in court and get them to pay up!
    Whats the problem with that?
    No - but in the meanwhile, lets be so fcuking bitter that the state picks on the offspring - who are innocent by the way.
    They are a separate legal entity - well unless you remarkably can prove different!



    People are already paying hand over fist in many, many other ways to the state.
    You forgot to mention that!

    The local authorities process grant applications, thats the local service, I never said anything about going to college/university.


  • #35
    Biggins
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    As one person stated in the Indo':
    Great idea. Stop educating the brightest in the country for the sake of 100 euro..


  • #36
    bamboozle
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,699 ✭✭✭bamboozle


    Biggins wrote: »
    Irish children penalised for the actions of parents...

    Is this what our state has come to?


    http://www.independent.ie/lifestyle/education/latest-news/fury-as-council-blocks-student-grants-over-household-charge-3233555.html

    I'm NOT here to argue for/against the household charge - there's a thread for that HERE.
    ...Have our present government become so low and fcuking bitter that they are hitting out at offspring for what is clearly the separate decisions of others?

    Feel free to disagree with me but I think its fcuking disgusting!

    ok, i disagree.


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  • #37
    jessiejam
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 778 ✭✭✭jessiejam


    I do pay plenty of taxes.

    Car tax
    PRSI
    USC
    Income tax
    TV licence.



    Its not my problem that the council can't budget or balance their books. Pack of fukin eejits. Talk about scraping the bottom of the barrell.


  • #38
    Anyone
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,376 ✭✭✭Anyone


    JRant wrote: »
    Try telling that to the local councils when applying. As far as they are concerned you are a 'dependant' while living at home or even living in student accomodation. Therefore in their eyes the student is still classed as a child.

    Dependant and child are totally different, I said what I said initially because the OP posted the thread in a dramatic style. "Omg the children, the children" feck off they arent children.


  • #39
    Zulu
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,965 ✭✭✭✭Zulu


    Biggins wrote: »
    As one person stated in the Indo':
    Only thats not true. They can still get educated.

    It's more like don't support those that don't contribute; pay in & you get out.
    Fair enough to me.


  • #40
    dark crystal
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,962 ✭✭✭✭dark crystal


    Anyone wrote: »
    Anybody going to college/university is not a child.

    In that case, I don't know where my 17 year old has been going every day for the last two weeks....I was sure it was a college.

    Oh well.


  • #41
    Gurgle
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,064 ✭✭✭Gurgle


    Biggins wrote: »
    As one person stated in the Indo':
    Great idea. Stop educating the brightest in the country for the sake of 100 euro..
    It would take some serious dumb-ass parents to not stump up that €100 if they're going to lose thousands in grant money over it.


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  • #42
    neverfindaname
    Registered Users Posts: 25 ✭neverfindaname


    allibastor wrote: »
    welcome to Ireland. Home of the most rediculos government ever. whats next, dont pay your TV licence and have your first born taken.


    I'd be all on for that :p


  • #43
    The Idyll Race
    Closed Accounts Posts: 367 ✭✭The Idyll Race


    eviltwin wrote: »
    I'm worried about the precedent this will set. Will we have to prove we have paid car tax etc now in the future before we can access state money.

    Yes. Pay your taxes like the rest of us have to do so you are entitled to access services. Anyone in receipt of any benefit should have to have a tax clearance certificate. That includes Bertie.

    Elect a different TD if you don't agree with how the country is run.


  • #44
    Biggins
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    Zulu wrote: »
    ...The grant is linked to the income of the parent. If you don't bother paying, you are depriving others. Frankly it's just that you are the first to suffer.

    "oh won't someone think of the children" :rolleyes:

    Well done, The grant is linked to the income of the parent.
    Not the word "income" - not for the possible crimes of the parent!

    ...But some for the sake of their argument - don't want to see the difference or unable to!


  • #45
    IvySlayer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,190 ✭✭✭✭IvySlayer


    I disagree with the property tax but can totally see that this makes perfect sense.

    Don't pay all of your tax, you can't avail of all services.


  • #46
    msg11
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,572 ✭✭✭msg11


    So this household tax thing is now what the general pool of money our taxes go into ? Where do our other taxes go? Like VAT , TAX , PRSI , USC, CARBON TAX, MOTOR TAX, INSURANCE LEVYS go to ? Like there's a few taxes..

    It's kind like saying if you don't own a car you can't use the roads because you don't pay motor tax..

    This government have not got a clue, what really annoys me is there is no alliterative too pick. If I was in charge, I would be slashing the salaries that I see as over payed, they can like it or lump it. I would chop Ex TD's / Taoiseach pensions everything, that would save a good few million alone.

    The crack of claiming expensenses would be gone, if they want a pencil, they can pay for it themselves.

    These so called senior staff, WILL take a pay cut or they can **** off, plenty for talent out there, so there's nothing senior about it anymore.


  • #47
    Biggins
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    The Idyll Race wrote: »
    ...Anyone in receipt of any benefit should have to have a tax clearance certificate. That includes Bertie.

    Elect a different TD if you don't agree with how the country is run.

    Point of order:

    We all know that part above in law, is an ass.

    Mr Ahern didn't pay his tax for many, many years (A LOT OF YEARS) and was issued a unique invented just for him "In Negotiation" cert' so that he could them still remain a TD and collect the amassing pensions (which NOW pays him €2,600 a week - after all deductions)!


  • #48
    dark crystal
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,962 ✭✭✭✭dark crystal


    IvySlayer wrote: »
    I disagree with the property tax but can totally see that this makes perfect sense.

    Don't pay all of your tax, you can't avail of all services.


    But they're not penalising the householders, they're penalising their children.


  • #49
    Anyone
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,376 ✭✭✭Anyone


    Biggins wrote: »
    Well done, The rant is linked to the income of the parent.
    Not the word "income" - not for the possible crimes of the parent!

    ...But some for the sake of their argument - don't want to see the difference or unable to!

    You're not seeing the arguement, not at all, in fact like others, you are making one up. Clare county council are removing a local service from those who didnt pay they local service charge. That local service is the processing of grant applications. Tough shít that its actually a really really valuable service, but people were warned that services would be removed and now its happening.


  • #50
    mccarthy37
    Registered Users Posts: 646 ✭✭✭mccarthy37


    Fair play to Ruairi Quinn that one time great spokesman for social justice. Democratic Left me arse Fine Gael must be very proud of him.
    I notice Enda Kenny is walking with a swagger lately as his Labour buddies have his arse licked clean.


  • #51
    Zulu
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,965 ✭✭✭✭Zulu


    Biggins wrote: »
    ...But some for the sake of their argument - don't want to see the difference or unable to!
    Sigh.
    They see the bigger picture; how's it's all connected.

    But hey ignore it if you'd rather. If you want to pay extra taxes to cover the welfare of those who'd rather not contribute - good for you, you're a far more generous man than I. I'm happy for you to pay some of my tax also. I have a paypal account - feel free to PM me your details.


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