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Are you going to pay the household charge? [Part 1]

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Comments

  • #3852
    plasmaguy
    Registered Users Posts: 1,683 ✭✭✭plasmaguy


    To be honest, I don't think 100 euro as a property tax is excessive.

    I don't know what the rate is in other country, but my guess is its a lot more.

    I know people will use the argument, yeh but they have better services. And the answer is because they pay more tax.

    Solving this countries problems will take many years and a lot of effort, but not paying tax or giving two fingers to the Revenue Commissioners or the IMF is certainly not going to solve the problem.

    In my opinion, the Stamp Duty tax was a far more unfair tax on people than a measly 100 euro property tax. The Stamp Duty tax could often amount to as much as 50,000 on an average property in the boom years, and people didn't even complain.

    My suspicion is its not the amount that grates people, but the principle of not paying more tax, or just not paying a property tax.

    Again, virtually every country in Europe has a property tax, except Ireland. And again, not paying tax is not going to help us.

    My belief is the government and the IMF are committed to this tax, and that means they will impose penalties on every last person.


  • #3853
    eviltwin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    100 euros may not be much to you Plasmaguy but there are a lot of folk out there who would take weeks or months to save that up.

    And of course the general consensus seems to be 100 quid today but possible a lot more next year. Other countries generally use that money to provide the services the people need unlike here where the money is likely to go into the big black hole that is the national debt.


  • #3854
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    plasmaguy wrote: »
    Well I paid, so I have nothing to worry about. It's great to have that worry removed to be honest.

    So you paid and all your worries were over? They should put you on an add to encourage payments.


  • #3855
    eth0
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,635 ✭✭✭eth0


    plasmaguy wrote: »
    To be honest, I don't think 100 euro as a property tax is excessive.

    I don't know what the rate is in other country, but my guess is its a lot more.

    I know people will use the argument, yeh but they have better services. And the answer is because they pay more tax.

    Solving this countries problems will take many years and a lot of effort, but not paying tax or giving two fingers to the Revenue Commissioners or the IMF is certainly not going to solve the problem.

    In my opinion, the Stamp Duty tax was a far more unfair tax on people than a measly 100 euro property tax. The Stamp Duty tax could often amount to as much as 50,000 on an average property in the boom years, and people didn't even complain.

    My suspicion is its not the amount that grates people, but the principle of not paying more tax, or just not paying a property tax.

    Again, virtually every country in Europe has a property tax, except Ireland. And again, not paying tax is not going to help us.

    My belief is the government and the IMF are committed to this tax, and that means they will impose penalties on every last person.

    I'm tired of this crap about "services". If I want a service I'll get it myself. I prefer the situation where the council does the absolute minimum, doesn't bother me and I don't bother them. The less interaction with these groups of people the better. Many services can be done without but the councils will insist on providing them to justify the high property tax.

    Stamp duty isn't unfair. Its a one-off payment when you want to move to a new house and you pay it when you can afford the new house, not a constant thing you have to keep paying just because you own a house. Or do you even own the house? If you have to pay property tax really you're just renting it from the government at a low rate.

    Seems like Ireland can never be the only country in Europe with a certain good aspect. I thought it was a great thing we had, that once you own your house you don't have to keep paying for it still to the government. All good things have to come to an end, particularly if we're the only country in Europe with the said good thing. How dare we step out of line


  • #3856
    Izzy Skint
    Closed Accounts Posts: 304 ✭✭Izzy Skint


    anyone who has already paid or registered, or intends to pay or register this criminal tax are idiots...full stop!


  • #3857
    Izzy Skint
    Closed Accounts Posts: 304 ✭✭Izzy Skint


    plasmaguy wrote: »
    Yeh, lets all stop paying tax, just like the Greeks. That'll show those IMF people. We don't want their money or their help, or else we only want free money from them, no conditions.

    This property tax is a condition of the IMF by the way. Bring in a property tax and they release more money to save our sorry asses.

    I wish we had a choice in this, but we don't.

    The IMF owns Ireland now, where have you been the last 2 years? Our government, democratically elected they may have been, are just IMF puppets. That's the reality of the situation.

    And the IMF really don't give a toss what most Irish people think or not. The Property tax is either brought in fully, or they leave and take their money/lifeline with them.

    These are simply facts, which really posters on here aren't going to alter.
    plasmaguy, you are incorrect mate, the IMF could not give a fiddlers where the irish government raise money from, once they raise it is all that matters to them....this tax is wrong on so many levels, starting at the very top it is wrong to bail out banks/bankers/bondholders etc., then as you work your way down it is wrong to tax people who have paid stamp duty, people who are paying mortgages to banks (banks which we all own!)...right down to the level where we argue over who gets what local services and all this bickering just clouds the real injustice of what the Irish gov. are doing to their own people...it is wrong on every level!....one other point, the more money you pump into something in this crap country the more inefficient and useless it becomes...think about it..


  • #3858
    Stinicker
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,102 ✭✭✭Stinicker


    Izzy Skint wrote: »
    anyone who has already paid or registered, or intends to pay or register this criminal tax are idiots...full stop!

    I'll enjoy watching them squirm when they see the €100 double, quadruple and quintiple to €2,000 a year over the next few years. Which is what is going to happen. I'm not paying it myself and if they try to use the ESB or other utilities against me I will just cut them off.

    I live in a rural area 6 miles from the nearest regional road, I have no services at all and am totally self sufficent, bar the ESB.

    There is no rubbish collection locally and I don't protest about it and I take my rubbish to the waste station once a month and recycle most of it for free and bin the rest into bags which go to landfill.

    My water comes from a mountain stream clean, chemical free and unpolluted unlike the councils muck they supply.

    The rural road resembles the surface of the moon, and I pay a thousand or two in Motor tax and fuel, vat etc.

    There is no local guard or barracks, I rely on the shotgun and my own isolation for protection.

    I get nothing from the Government and won't be paying the tax until I see around 50% of the public sector made redundant and the other 50% get 50% pay cuts.

    Laissez faire living for the win!


  • #3859
    Izzy Skint
    Closed Accounts Posts: 304 ✭✭Izzy Skint


    plasmaguy wrote: »
    So you are not going to pay the tax then? Fine with me.

    Don't come crying on here when they put all those fines and penalties on you.

    My guess is eventually people like you will pay.

    But I hope they fine the bejaysus out of you, just to teach you a lesson.

    Facts which people like you need reminding are:

    1. Practically every country in Europe, well normal country that isn't bankrupt, have property taxes. It's an accepted norm in every normal country (except the wild west that is Ireland).

    2. Without the stamp duty revenues, we have a massive shortfall in day to day taxes.

    3. Pay less tax, and the governent need to borrow more, even economic illiterates should be able to get that.

    4. The property tax was one of the conditions of the IMF bailout. It's not really up for negotiation. They give us money up front and we pay it back longterm. We don't do the property tax right and refuse to pay it, they will refuse to give us the money we need for day to day spending.
    plasmaguy....before the boom years the gov. could manage our borrowing / outgoings...no major problems....then madness for 10 years.... spending went into overdrive....we are now 15 - 20 billion euro overspending every year due to the fall in stamp duty etc.....but wait...any tax reductions we received in the good years have been more than clawed back by the gov, take a look at any workers pay slip from 2/3 years ago and compare it to one now....so why are we still overspending so much, where did all that extra spending go over the years...health, social welfare, public pay + pensions..thats where...we all know these are crippling us, especially the latter two, these must be cut SEVERELY, the gov. know it too but have not got the guts to upset unions or hit the "most vulnerable"...most vulnerable my @rse, I am working and can barely survive on my pay....totally sick of this sh!t country....so I am not paying


  • #3860
    Stinicker
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,102 ✭✭✭Stinicker


    Izzy Skint wrote: »
    plasmaguy....before the boom years the gov. could manage our borrowing / outgoings...no major problems....then madness for 10 years.... spending went into overdrive....we are now 15 - 20 billion euro overspending every year due to the fall in stamp duty etc.....but wait...any tax reductions we received in the good years have been more than clawed back by the gov, take a look at any workers pay slip from 2/3 years ago and compare it to one now....so why are we still overspending so much, where did all that extra spending go over the years...health, social welfare, public pay + pensions..thats where...we all know these are crippling us, especially the latter two, these must be cut SEVERELY, the gov. know it too but have not got the guts to upset unions or hit the "most vulnerable"...most vulnerable my @rse, I am working and can barely survive on my pay....totally sick of this sh!t country....so I am not paying

    Agreed, if we had a proper Government they would just simply say sorry EU and IMF we cannot repay and won't repay, threatening to bring down the EU/Euro ponzi pyramid scheme would quickly get debt writeoffs and we have no choice but to default on the loans and let the market correct itself.

    Ireland is on life support but is brain dead, we must pull the plug and reboot the country, a new currency without the debt or liabilitys of the past is needed. Ireland, Greece, Spain and Italy should not be sacrificial pawns to keep the inflated pyramid Euro alive, the Euro has to be killed off and the whole concept of the EU abolished, trading partners is fine but when it becomes like United States and a central dictator in Berlin and Brussels telling us we can't sh1t down the toilet then you know the time has come to collapse the German's imperial plan.

    Yes it will cause short-term economic hardship, but this is what happened in Iceland and they are now in a far better position than us and are adopting the Canadian dollar as their new Currency soon. People here are Myopic in the extreme and we need to plan ahead for a future for our people and right now there is no future for the vast amount of Ireland's youth, Suicide in skyrocketing and depression is common all because of what Fianna Fail did to the country. We must plan ahead and do what is best for Ireland and not for for the bank accounts of Private billionaire bondholders and FF cronie capitalists.


  • #3861
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    celticcrash wrote: »
    No need to be sorry, you didn't burst my bubble.
    He said a few more paid by credit card and internet.
    Please dont tell me that its gone up to
    2%
    :D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D
    Did you even read the article? Limerick CoCo have no information about how many people paid online.

    You are living in a dreamland if you think that nationally the payment figures are 12% but somehow in Limerick that figure is 2%.


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  • #3862
    Frank Black
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,296 ✭✭✭Frank Black


    Stinicker wrote: »
    Agreed, if we had a proper Government they would just simply say sorry EU and IMF we cannot repay and won't repay, threatening to bring down the EU/Euro ponzi pyramid scheme would quickly get debt writeoffs and we have no choice but to default on the loans and let the market correct itself.


    Yes it will cause short-term economic hardship, but this is what happened in Iceland and they are now in a far better position than us and are adopting the Canadian dollar as their new Currency soon. People here are Myopic in the extreme and we need to plan ahead for a future for our people and right now there is no future for the vast amount of Ireland's youth, Suicide in skyrocketing and depression is common all because of what Fianna Fail did to the country. We must plan ahead and do what is best for Ireland and not for for the bank accounts of Private billionaire bondholders and FF cronie capitalists.


    Talk about master of understatement:rolleyes:.

    Imagine having to close an 18billion euro deficit overnight - please expand on what you think would actually happen in this scenario.

    Perhaps you could outline the impacts of the drastic cuts which would be required to social welfare, pension payments, public section pay, funding for health and education. Do you perhaps foresee a scenario where huge sections of society would go on strike - given the amount of bellyaching going on in this thread over a €100 charge, what do you think would be the reaction of society to the economic apocalypse your have proposed?

    Given you've come on here and proposed this as an alternative to a property tax, it's incumbant on people like you to to actually explain the effects of adopting your proposal.

    Iceland btw is completely ****ed and likely to get worse - it's not some magical nirvana.


  • #3863
    Cantona's Collars
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,709 ✭✭✭✭Cantona's Collars


    I eventually met someone who paid it,they couldn't give me a rational explanation as to why they did it.I left them feeling fairly sheepish when I gave them the stats for the amount of non paying households.

    The only argument I got was, "what if we want to sell the house?" Get real it's value has dropped by nearly 60% since it was bought,they won't be going anywhere.

    Wait 'til this €100 creeps up & up,will they gleefully hand over the cash then?


  • #3864
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    zerks wrote: »
    I eventually met someone who paid it,they couldn't give me a rational explanation as to why they did it.
    What, in your view, are the rational explanations for paying the charge?


  • #3865
    Cantona's Collars
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,709 ✭✭✭✭Cantona's Collars


    dvpower wrote: »
    What, in your view, are the rational explanations for paying the charge?

    I asked why they paid it and the response was "ah,ehm,but sure we have to".They didn't even seem to know much about the charge & just blindly went along and paid it.

    Where they live isn't even finished and has many empty properties but isn't exempt.It seems they regret paying it now but anyhow dvpower,it's another one for your short list of those who paid.


  • #3866
    golfwallah
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,511 ✭✭✭golfwallah


    dvpower wrote: »
    What, in your view, are the rational explanations for paying the charge?

    I'm no fan of household charges but the decision to pay eventually boils down to whether you believe in democracy or not.

    I know that flat rate household charges were opposed by Fine Gael in their election manifesto.

    That being said, the Government have a clear mandate to clean up the financial mess - from all of us.

    The issue of household charges was debated at length in the Dail, in the context of the financial mess the country is in, before the enabling legislation for Household Charges was passed.

    As far as I know, the charge is temporary until even more penal taxes are brought in, next year - so look forward to even bigger charges to come.

    The rational explanation for taxes is that you have to pay your way in life and that includes repaying your debts (even if the debts were raised recklessly and we now don't like them).

    Certainly, the people responsible for the reckless borrowing (whether private, government or public officials) should be brought to account, but that is a separate matter.


  • #3867
    naoise80
    Closed Accounts Posts: 89 ✭✭naoise80


    Izzy Skint wrote: »
    anyone who has already paid or registered, or intends to pay or register this criminal tax are idiots...full stop!

    Howya. I'm Naoise80, the idiot.

    Happily paid up about three weeks ago.


  • #3868
    mconigol
    Registered Users Posts: 1,583 ✭✭✭mconigol


    naoise80 wrote: »
    Howya. I'm Naoise80, the idiot.

    Happily paid up about three weeks ago.

    Get'em! :pac:


  • #3869
    Ghandee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,653 ✭✭✭Ghandee


    naoise80 wrote: »
    Howya. I'm Naoise80, the idiot.

    Happily paid up about three weeks ago.

    good girl.:rolleyes:


  • #3870
    naoise80
    Closed Accounts Posts: 89 ✭✭naoise80


    Ghandee wrote: »
    good girl.:rolleyes:

    Very sexist post.


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  • #3871
    Frank Black
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,296 ✭✭✭Frank Black


    Ghandee wrote: »
    good girl.:rolleyes:


    Smell the irony!
    Ghandee wrote: »
    Once again when the truth gets spoken, a member of the 'pro tax brigade' rears their head, and dishes out the insults.

    Quite pathetic really.:rolleyes:


  • #3872
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    Ghandee wrote: »
    good girl.:rolleyes:
    Isn't Naoise a blokes name?


  • #3873
    Ghandee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,653 ✭✭✭Ghandee


    black francis wrote: »
    Smell the irony!

    'Good girl' is an insult:confused:

    Btw Francis, I don't think you ever told us what political party you are aligned with?


  • #3874
    Frank Black
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,296 ✭✭✭Frank Black


    Ghandee wrote: »
    'Good girl' is an insult:confused:

    Btw Francis, I don't think you ever told us what political party you are aligned with?

    Jaysus, mind you don't get whiplash trying to change subject so quickly.


    Good lad. :rolleyes:


  • #3875
    Rabidlamb
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,202 ✭✭✭Rabidlamb


    You keyboard warriors will fall in when the first fine notices drop.
    Oh the squirming will be fun to watch.
    There'll be a few die hards who will get their day in court but the public will have lost interest by then.
    Once you're on the grid only death will free you.

    Yours
    Phil


  • #3876
    Ghandee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,653 ✭✭✭Ghandee


    black francis wrote: »
    Jaysus, mind you don't get whiplash trying to change subject so quickly.


    Good lad. :rolleyes:

    Answer the first question so, and we'll then move on to the second one.

    What part of good girl is insulting to anyone?

    She/they referred to themselves as 'an idiot' who had paid the bogus tax.
    I replied by saying good girl. I personally wouldn't have found that insulting, just like I don't think it was insulting by you telling me 'good lad', in fact my response to that is, Thanks.


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  • #3877
    naoise80
    Closed Accounts Posts: 89 ✭✭naoise80


    Ghandee wrote: »
    Answer the first question so, and we'll then move on to the second one.

    What part of good girl is insulting to anyone?

    She/they referred to themselves as 'an idiot' who had paid the bogus tax.
    I replied by saying good girl. I personally wouldn't have found that insulting, just like I don't think it was insulting by you telling me 'good lad', in fact my response to that is, Thanks.

    Why put the sarcastic :rolleyes: at the end?


  • #3878
    Frank Black
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,296 ✭✭✭Frank Black


    Ghandee wrote: »
    Answer the first question so, and we'll then move on to the second one.

    What part of good girl is insulting to anyone?

    She/they referred to themselves as 'an idiot' who had paid the bogus tax.
    I replied by saying good girl. I personally wouldn't have found that insulting, just like I don't think it was insulting by you telling me 'good lad', in fact my response to that is, Thanks.


    Don't know what's worse, the inherent sexism of your original comment or the subsequent pathetic backtracking and feeble attempt at justification.

    If you're in a hole, stop digging.


  • #3879
    plasmaguy
    Registered Users Posts: 1,683 ✭✭✭plasmaguy


    Ahem, if I may.

    We elected the current government (or shower as governments routinely are called these days).

    We had our chance to kick out the old one and put in a new one with Labour on board too.

    And the result? They bring in new taxes.

    What did people think would happen? That FG/Labour would not raise taxes?

    There is an annual deficit of 18 billion - This has got nothing to do with paying back bondholders for the mistakes of FF developers.

    This is an 18 billion current account deficit, money needed for day to day spending. So we either raise taxes or borrow more and pass the responsibility for paying it back to our children.

    I am all for telling bondholders to clear off when it comes to covering the loans of failed property developers.

    But telling them to clear off when it comes to paying back our day to day borrowings, that's different altogether.

    It's basically economic illiteracy that discourages people from paying this tax.


  • #3880
    ekans
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 44 ✭ekans


    hate = hat + e


  • #3881
    M cebee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,431 ✭✭✭M cebee


    ekans wrote: »
    hate = hat + e

    hate=h+8


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  • #3882
    plasmaguy
    Registered Users Posts: 1,683 ✭✭✭plasmaguy


    Stinicker wrote: »
    I'll enjoy watching them squirm when they see the €100 double, quadruple and quintiple to €2,000 a year over the next few years. Which is what is going to happen. I'm not paying it myself and if they try to use the ESB or other utilities against me I will just cut them off.

    I live in a rural area 6 miles from the nearest regional road, I have no services at all and am totally self sufficent, bar the ESB.

    There is no rubbish collection locally and I don't protest about it and I take my rubbish to the waste station once a month and recycle most of it for free and bin the rest into bags which go to landfill.

    My water comes from a mountain stream clean, chemical free and unpolluted unlike the councils muck they supply.

    The rural road resembles the surface of the moon, and I pay a thousand or two in Motor tax and fuel, vat etc.

    There is no local guard or barracks, I rely on the shotgun and my own isolation for protection.

    I get nothing from the Government and won't be paying the tax until I see around 50% of the public sector made redundant and the other 50% get 50% pay cuts.

    Laissez faire living for the win!

    You get nothing from the government? Nothing at all? No education? No healthcare? I suppose you will operate on yourself so?

    Everyone gets something from the government but clearly you feel you should be entitled to it for free, which many people in Ireland feel, particularly the social welfare class, who spend most of their life on dole and then transition to the state pension, without ever giving anything back. Always expecting handouts.

    Wake up, the days of governments flush with stamp duty cash are over. It's time for us to pay our way, every last one of us.

    It's time for the spongers on this state, whether they are the social welfare class or the multi millionaires to take a hit, and not just the paye worker.

    As for cutting off your ESB to prevent them finding you, this is typical of the over-reaction of most non payers. They'd rather freeze to death than agree with the principle of paying a property tax.

    Next they will be telling us was this what the men of 1916 fought for? To pay property taxes?

    With soverignty comes responsibility, particularly to fund your state properly and pay your taxes.


  • #3883
    eth0
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,635 ✭✭✭eth0


    plasmaguy wrote: »
    You get nothing from the government? Nothing at all? No education? No healthcare? I suppose you will operate on yourself so?

    Everyone gets something from the government but clearly you feel you should be entitled to it for free, which many people in Ireland feel, particularly the social welfare class, who spend most of their life on dole and then transition to the state pension, without ever giving anything back. Always expecting handouts.

    Wake up, the days of governments flush with stamp duty cash are over. It's time for us to pay our way, every last one of us.

    It's time for the spongers on this state, whether they are the social welfare class or the multi millionaires to take a hit, and not just the paye worker.

    As for cutting off your ESB to prevent them finding you, this is typical of the over-reaction of most non payers. They'd rather freeze to death than agree with the principle of paying a property tax.

    Next they will be telling us was this what the men of 1916 fought for? To pay property taxes?

    With soverignty comes responsibility, particularly to fund your state properly and pay your taxes.

    What about all the other forms of tax we have, it doesn't pay for any of those? I dont believe you should have to pay tax if you're not earning anything and you're not spending anything. The fact that they're now going at your house is too much of a power grab by the government and I would rather freeze to death myself than to keep paying them for the privilege of owning something.


  • #3884
    JimiTime
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,418 ✭✭✭JimiTime


    TBH, I'd be a lot more receptive to a 'Recession' tax. At least then it would be clear what its for in relation to paying back what the country has borrowed etc.

    I absolutely HATE the idea that we are about to introduce this property tax, on the basis that its going to go up and up and be with us forever. The price of it now is very affordable, so thats not my issue. It will just become the norm and we will continue to get nothing for it. It will rise and rise, and we'll get nothing specific. Salary rises for councillors maybe.


  • #3885
    plasmaguy
    Registered Users Posts: 1,683 ✭✭✭plasmaguy


    Yeh well there are a whole class of people in Ireland who have never worked a day in their life, never paid tax and never will, and they want handouts for everything.

    I hope they put this tax on Traveller's Caravans as well, another class of people who are enaged in all kinds of tax avoidance. The loss of tax revenue to the state from Travellers is incalculable.


  • #3886
    Frank Black
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,296 ✭✭✭Frank Black


    eth0 wrote: »
    What about all the other forms of tax we have, it doesn't pay for any of those? I dont believe you should have to pay tax if you're not earning anything and you're not spending anything. The fact that they're now going at your house is too much of a power grab by the government and I would rather freeze to death myself than to keep paying them for the privilege of owning something.


    So you don't own a car then?

    Must be awkward for you considering you "live in a rural area 6 miles from the nearest regional road".


  • #3887
    eth0
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,635 ✭✭✭eth0


    black francis wrote: »
    So you don't own a car then?

    Must be awkward for you considering you "live in a rural area 6 miles from the nearest regional road".

    That was some other lad.

    I own a few cars. Only one is taxed though, that would be another thing the govt could come up 'ah here you have an ould heap of rust in the shed, you can pay us in return for us allowing you to hold on to it'


  • #3888
    SafeSurfer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,591 ✭✭✭SafeSurfer


    plasmaguy wrote: »
    You get nothing from the government? Nothing at all? No education? No healthcare? I suppose you will operate on yourself so?

    Everyone gets something from the government but clearly you feel you should be entitled to it for free, which many people in Ireland feel, particularly the social welfare class, who spend most of their life on dole and then transition to the state pension, without ever giving anything back. Always expecting handouts.

    Wake up, the days of governments flush with stamp duty cash are over. It's time for us to pay our way, every last one of us.

    It's time for the spongers on this state, whether they are the social welfare class or the multi millionaires to take a hit, and not just the paye worker.

    As for cutting off your ESB to prevent them finding you, this is typical of the over-reaction of most non payers. They'd rather freeze to death than agree with the principle of paying a property tax.

    Next they will be telling us was this what the men of 1916 fought for? To pay property taxes?

    With soverignty comes responsibility, particularly to fund your state properly and pay your taxes.

    Your recent posts have been contradictory.

    Just a page ago you said

    I wish we had a choice in this, but we don't.
    The IMF owns Ireland now, where have you been the last 2 years? Our government, democratically elected they may have been, are just IMF puppets. That's the reality of the situation.

    Now you are giving our sovereignty as a reason to pay the household charge.
    Which is it?

    You also say
    It's basically economic illiteracy that discourages people from paying this tax.

    I don't think this is the case.
    Many people's objection to the household charge stems from the fact that it is a flat rate tax which are inherently unjust.

    Michael O' Leary will pay the same amount on his country pile Gigginstown House as the couple trapped in a shoebox apartment on the outskirts of Naas.

    This inequity is what people object to.

    Multo autem ad rem magis pertinet quallis tibi vide aris quam allis



  • #3889
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    SafeSurfer wrote: »
    Michael O' Leary will pay the same amount on his country pile Gigginstown House as the couple trapped in a shoebox apartment on the outskirts of Naas.

    This inequity is what people object to.
    The household charge is a precursor to a value based property tax.
    Thus inequality will be ironed out over the next couple of years (and replaced with what some people will perceive as other inequalities).

    Michael O'Leary will soon be paying more than the couple in Naas (but they'll both be paying more than €100).


  • #3890
    SafeSurfer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,591 ✭✭✭SafeSurfer


    dvpower wrote: »
    The household charge is a precursor to a value based property tax.
    Thus inequality will be ironed out over the next couple of years (and replaced with what some people will perceive as other inequalities).

    Michael O'Leary will soon be paying more than the couple in Naas (but they'll both be paying more than €100).

    Well why not postpone the charge until it can be introduced on an equitable basis?

    Multo autem ad rem magis pertinet quallis tibi vide aris quam allis



  • #3891
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    SafeSurfer wrote: »
    Well why not postpone the charge until it can be introduced on an equitable basis?
    Its been agreed with the troika and they didn't get their act together to get it sorted in time.


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  • #3892
    SafeSurfer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,591 ✭✭✭SafeSurfer


    dvpower wrote: »
    Its been agreed with the troika and they didn't get their act together to get it sorted in time.

    In my opinion it is a terrible mistake politically. The 100 euro household charge has been in the pipeline long enough for them to implement a valuation based property tax instead. It is political expediency, what did Alan Shatter say "its only 79 punts a year", that will come back to haunt them.

    A valuation based tax could not be reasonably opposed by any politician, especially the socialists who are leading the charge against the household tax. When less than half of those liable for the charge have registered by the end of this month, what then? There is every likelihood that it will fail, making the introduction of any property tax, equitable or not impossible for the foreseeable future.

    Multo autem ad rem magis pertinet quallis tibi vide aris quam allis



  • #3893
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    SafeSurfer wrote: »
    In my opinion it is a terrible mistake politically. The 100 euro household charge has been in the pipeline long enough for them to implement a valuation based property tax instead. It is political expediency, what did Alan Shatter say "its only 79 punts a year", that will come back to haunt them.

    A valuation based tax could not be reasonably opposed by any politician, especially the socialists who are leading the charge against the household tax. When less than half of those liable for the charge have registered by the end of this month, what then? There is every likelihood that it will fail, making the introduction of any property tax, equitable or not impossible for the foreseeable future.
    I agree with most of this, except for the last part.
    They should have gotten their act together sooner and I don't see them getting their act together even now. I predict that we wont have a valuation based property tax until 2004 at least.

    I can't see it failing for the simple reason that it has been agreed with the trioka and I think they are keen on a property tax because of the revenue stability it gives. Towards the middle of the year, when we haven't raised the 160m and the government are having to raise the money elsewhere, there will be political pressure to come down hard on the non payers.


  • #3894
    Am Chile
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,025 ✭✭✭Am Chile


    From the waterford anti household tax facebook page, as they only knew a few days in advance a visit by richard bruton, there was a picket outside where he was visiting.

    This picture and the second small poster in particular is a good one, as richard bruton himself said those words when in opposition, that no country has ever taxed itself out of recession.

    http://www.facebook.com/#!/photo.php?fbid=393301757364999&set=a.328178360544006.92184.327428877285621&type=1&theater


  • #3895
    plasmaguy
    Registered Users Posts: 1,683 ✭✭✭plasmaguy


    dvpower wrote: »
    I agree with most of this, except for the last part.
    They should have gotten their act together sooner and I don't see them getting their act together even now. I predict that we wont have a valuation based property tax until 2004 at least.

    I can't see it failing for the simple reason that it has been agreed with the trioka and I think they are keen on a property tax because of the revenue stability it gives. Towards the middle of the year, when we haven't raised the 160m and the government are having to raise the money elsewhere, there will be political pressure to come down hard on the non payers.

    +1.

    A rare example of measured proposals amid a torrent of "I'm not paying it" hysteria.

    We should have had a property tax years ago, instead of a stamp duty/pay at the point of purchase tax.

    The problem with the stamp duty tax was always going to be that revenues from it were related to the state of the property market.

    So if there was lots of house sales, and expensive house sales at that, stamp duty boomed.

    If there hardly any house sales, there was no stamp duty revenue.

    The government budgeted in 2008 for example for a certain amount of stamp duty income. When that failed to materiliase because of the crash, they ended up with a massive deficit.

    We need to get rid of stamp duty taxes. And replace them with a more reliable consistant revenue stream. Otherwise this country is completely screwed.

    There are still people like me fighting to save this country, whereas others seem to have just given up and written it off.


  • #3896
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    plasmaguy wrote: »
    There are still people like me fighting to save this country, whereas others seem to have just given up and written it off.

    When in a fight though, many people can only take so many hits.


  • #3897
    plasmaguy
    Registered Users Posts: 1,683 ✭✭✭plasmaguy


    robbie7730 wrote: »
    When in a fight though, many people can only take so many hits.

    I feel sorry for some people genuinely on the breadline.

    But the vast majority can afford 100 euro, don't be kidding yourself. Perhaps a few hundred thousand will struggle.

    But when I see people with plenty of money, can splash it out saturday night in the pub, can go on 2 or 3 holidays a year, skiing, summer holiday, EuroDisney, match at Old Trafford, rugby matches at the Avivia, and so on and so forth, and these same people say they aren't paying it or can't afford it, it's hard to take them seriously. And we all know such people, if I know them, which I do, then everyone knows them. These people won't pay because it might mean having to missing a game at the Aviva between Leinster and someone. Oh the horror.


  • #3898
    Slick50
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,062 ✭✭✭Slick50


    Arnold Layne wrote: »
    Slick50 wrote: »

    The problem is that this is not a tax on the family home our another route of residence. If out was then all households would pay irrespective of whether the residents owned the property or not.

    The owners of houses on the Ras scheme are exempt which protects the politicians who own many of these houses from paying this.

    Is there something wrong with your keyboard?


  • #3899
    plasmaguy
    Registered Users Posts: 1,683 ✭✭✭plasmaguy


    I think a lot of people are not paying, not because of the amount, but because of the principle.

    Well the principle of paying is right, so pay up. And don't be costing the taxpayer even more money with court cases.


  • #3900
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    plasmaguy wrote: »
    I feel sorry for some people genuinely on the breadline.

    But the vast majority can afford 100 euro, don't be kidding yourself. Perhaps a few hundred thousand will struggle.
    If its a few hundred thousand that will struggle with €100, how many will struggle when its €800?


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  • #3901
    Slick50
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,062 ✭✭✭Slick50


    plasmaguy wrote: »
    In my opinion, the Stamp Duty tax was a far more unfair tax on people than a measly 100 euro property tax. The Stamp Duty tax could often amount to as much as 50,000 on an average property in the boom years, and people didn't even complain.

    The price of the average property reached about €340k, and stamp duty was 7% in that price range, plus the first €125k was exempt. So where do you get €50k from.

    It has already been accepted by most people on here that this tax will not stay at a "measly" €100.


This discussion has been closed.
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