Irish Promotions Thread Please read post 1 (*Mod Warning Post #3947)

Sirsok · 14-03-2018 12:00am

Hey leggo, we may have just missed each other when I was in IWW, (angry andy and ragin rick represent), but what do you think were the reasons for IWWs ultimate demise ( demise considering their decreased influence over the years on the scene).

I have my own opinions however you seem to of been much closer to the nucleus in rathdowney then I may have been!

SquidLad · 14-03-2018 12:22am

spektorfive wrote: »

Who would own the rights to IWW stuff? Could it appear on the On Demand service for OTT and be a cool look back on Irish wrestling.

If I'm Joe Cabray, I'm not sure I'd want the IWW library, to be brutally honest. Irish Whip had its moments but a lot of it was f'ing horrendously bad. Have a look at this match between The Blagger Boys and Team Sexy? The Sexy Lads?, forget what they were called. All the worst aspects of bad indie wrestling are on display here. Silly gimmicks, lads who're barely trained, ten people in the audience etc... Not exactly the thing you'd want to associate your "cool"; "edgy" wrestling product with.

leggo · 14-03-2018 12:36am

It just ran its course I think. It was a really good promotion for the old school method of promoting that kinda got caught as wrestling (and the world) changed. I ran a lot of the day to day stuff for a good while and tried to modernise it with social media etc, but it was just something there wasn’t a real urgency or hunger for when perhaps there should’ve been. Its old school leanings also made it a bit carney in certain aspects, but with the rise of the internet that stuff started to become more transparent because people would talk among themselves, and they didn’t adapt quickly enough so it created a contentious relationship with the public (which I felt, seeing both sides, was a bit unfair and kinda the John Cena/Roman Reigns effect of it becoming cool to pick on something when it gets so big).

Then there was the incident with the Cork ring van breaking down. It was a freak accident and, even though I was on the way out and not even on that tour, I got the call to come back and help try smooth it over. But people were ready to stick the knife in whether it was fair to do so or not. The losses from that show also created a ‘need money now’ aspect and some bad stunts backfired, in turn both souring the promoter on their ambitious plans and, as a result, a lot of performers there. So it had a knock on effect as the roster significantly weakened and the promoter wasn’t running big shows anymore so not attracting talent to replace them.

It’s nobody’s fault really. There could’ve been things done better but they were also the first promotion here to do anything with any kind of size, so sadly they were the ones to have to make the mistakes for everyone else to learn from. Some people blame the promoter but I wouldn’t personally, I think that’s just projection more than anything (though also I wasn’t in their shoes either to be fair). I think Simon doesn’t get the credit he deserves for what he’s done for Irish wrestling and that’s a shame, we wouldn’t have what we have today if not for him (even down to Low Blows, I learned so much working with IWW that I still use today).

For what it’s worth they still run pretty regularly and everyone I know there seems pretty happy with the setup, so it’s not all doom and gloom either.

leggo · 14-03-2018 12:42am

SquidLad wrote: »

If I'm Joe Cabray, I'm not sure I'd want the IWW library, to be brutally honest. Irish Whip had its moments but a lot of it was f'ing horrendously bad. Have a look at this match between The Blagger Boys and Team Sexy? The Sexy Lads?, forget what they were called. All the worst aspects of bad indie wrestling are on display here. Silly gimmicks, lads who're barely trained, ten people in the audience etc... Not exactly the thing you'd want to associate your "cool"; "edgy" wrestling product with.

You can pick horrendously bad stuff from any promotion that uses its own trainees or tries to blood and develop imports while they’re young, it’s not hard to do. Everyone sucks in some way when they start because the only way you can learn after a certain point is in the ring in front of people. They also found and developed Sheamus, Drew Galloway, Wade Barrett, Mad Man Manson, not to mention being the first training school for a lot of people doing really well today and using a ton of some of the biggest indie/WWE stars before they were famous.

SquidLad · 14-03-2018 1:09am

leggo wrote: »

You can pick horrendously bad stuff from any promotion that uses its own trainees or tries to blood and develop imports while they’re young, it’s not hard to do. Everyone sucks in some way when they start because the only way you can learn after a certain point is in the ring in front of people. They also found and developed Sheamus, Drew Galloway, Wade Barrett, Mad Man Manson, not to mention being the first training school for a lot of people doing really well today and using a ton of some of the biggest indie/WWE stars before they were famous.

Ara now. I know you have a special fondness for IWW but be honest, you'd be shocked if you saw a match that bad in Progress or Rev Pro or OTT today.

SquidLad · 14-03-2018 1:32am

Also, and I'm not trying to be mean, but if you actually consider the amount of ex IWW talent that "made it". The number is exactly one. And that would be Sheamus. I don't consider the act of merely booking guys allows you bragging rights once they get signed. Not if you didn't develop them yourself. Drew Galloway came out of FWA and Barrett out of NWA: Hammerlock. And they were both wrestling for years for Brian Dixon and British Championship Wrestling before coming to Ireland. They really can't be claimed as "IWW guys". In fact, when you think about it, if you list European promotions by how many of their wrestlers went to WWE or made it big elsewhere, IWW would be on the lower end. Even NWA Ireland had a more successful roster.

leggo · 14-03-2018 8:29am

If you consider Pete Dunne to be an OTT guy (and consider that he does himself), then you have to consider Drew and Wade IWW guys too. Got their first bit of proper exposure there, got spotted for WWE there. Drew was like 19 and in University when he started with IWW, so it's false to say he was wrestling years because he wasn't even alive years before getting booked! They got their bookings with Dixon through Sheamus, who got told by John Laurinaitis to work there after a tryout to get up to WWE standard. Don't take my word for it, though, what do they talk about when they're on the likes of Ride Along, Table for 3 and podcasts? IWW!

Then there was Pierre Marceau too who was signed for NXT and Impact, he moved to Ireland from France to train. Then you consider that Joe Cabray started training there too, he was my second trainer, although he did a lot of his best work after he left. Do you say Mad Man Manson didn't make it becoming one of the biggest names in British Wrestling, respected by pretty much everyone there and still remembered to this day years after he retired?

Then if you consider the likes of Martina etc today as having 'made it' (and I would), you also have to count the likes of Ballymun Bruiser and others who enjoyed similar success that now gets forgotten about because it's not in your face. Bruiser had a TV3 documentary made about his life and there was a period I couldn't switch on the TV without being like "Why is that gob****e on the television?!!" :pac:

I'm not being biased here. I've no real emotional affinity to the company anymore and I personally get zero credit for anything like that because booking or training talent was never my job. And just before that post I made a really honest assessment of their shortcomings. It's just become cool to stick the boot into them because they're not big today, but you could probably go over matches with wrestlers considered cool today starting out and nitpick just as much. You'd just be considered a dick for doing so because it kinda is a dick move to run down something from someone just starting out (although I know you probably weren't trying to be, again it's just cool to run them down now).

You could say also the same about Fight Factory's success in churning out stars with Balor, Becky, Devlin, Katey Harvey, Sean Guinness etc btw.

SquidLad · 14-03-2018 2:16pm

leggo wrote: »

If you consider Pete Dunne to be an OTT guy (and consider that he does himself), then you have to consider Drew and Wade IWW guys too. Got their first bit of proper exposure there, got spotted for WWE there. Drew was like 19 and in University when he started with IWW, so it's false to say he was wrestling years because he wasn't even alive years before getting booked! They got their bookings with Dixon through Sheamus, who got told by John Laurinaitis to work there after a tryout to get up to WWE standard. Don't take my word for it, though, what do they talk about when they're on the likes of Ride Along, Table for 3 and podcasts? IWW!

Then there was Pierre Marceau too who was signed for NXT and Impact, he moved to Ireland from France to train. Then you consider that Joe Cabray started training there too, he was my second trainer, although he did a lot of his best work after he left. Do you say Mad Man Manson didn't make it becoming one of the biggest names in British Wrestling, respected by pretty much everyone there and still remembered to this day years after he retired?

Then if you consider the likes of Martina etc today as having 'made it' (and I would), you also have to count the likes of Ballymun Bruiser and others who enjoyed similar success that now gets forgotten about because it's not in your face. Bruiser had a TV3 documentary made about his life and there was a period I couldn't switch on the TV without being like "Why is that gob****e on the television?!!" :pac:

I'm not being biased here. I've no real emotional affinity to the company anymore and I personally get zero credit for anything like that because booking or training talent was never my job. And just before that post I made a really honest assessment of their shortcomings. It's just become cool to stick the boot into them because they're not big today, but you could probably go over matches with wrestlers considered cool today starting out and nitpick just as much. You'd just be considered a dick for doing so because it kinda is a dick move to run down something from someone just starting out (although I know you probably weren't trying to be, again it's just cool to run them down now).

You could say also the same about Fight Factory's success in churning out stars with Balor, Becky, Devlin, Katey Harvey, Sean Guinness etc btw.

Well can we just agree that I'm not running down IWW to look "cool"? And that I'm doing so because I genuinely believe the praise that promotion gets is overstated?

My definition of having "made it" in wrestling is if you can make a career out of it. Pierre Marceau didn't make it. He was a failed NXT guy who became a failed TNA guy. Bruiser never even wrestled outside of Ireland. Manson (who I love, don't get me wrong) was a part time indy guy.

Galloway, unless I'm mistaken, debuted when he was 15 and had spent several years wrestling for British Championship Wrestling. But you are right, IWW does deserve more credit than I give them for their hand in developing Barrett and Galloway since they got their first TV exposure through Whiplash TV.

IWW was what it was. A regional indy mostly comprised mostly of local trainees. Some of whom were talented but virtually none of them made a career out of wrestling.

brianblaze · 14-03-2018 2:25pm

SquidLad wrote: »

Well can we just agree that I'm not running down IWW to look "cool"? And that I'm doing so because I genuinely believe the praise that promotion gets is overstated?

My definition of having "made it" in wrestling is if you can make a career out of it. Pierre Marceau didn't make it. He was a failed NXT guy who became a failed TNA guy. Bruiser never even wrestled outside of Ireland. Manson (who I love, don't get me wrong) was a part time indy guy.

Galloway, unless I'm mistaken, debuted when he was 15 and had spent several years wrestling for British Championship Wrestling. But you are right, IWW does deserve more credit than I give them for their hand in developing Barrett and Galloway since they got their first TV exposure through Whiplash TV.

IWW was what it was. A regional indy mostly comprised mostly of local trainees. Some of whom were talented but virtually none of them made a career out of wrestling.

NWA and moreso Fergal deserve a lot more credit for growing talent in Ireland. (Devlin, Morrow, Devitt and Becky) I loved IWW, but Seamus started his training in the States, and Barrett and Galloway in the UK. IWW hitched to that clown Norton at the start which drove a lot of trainees away, and then Burridge came along who by all accounts was sound but no idea what he was like to train with.

IWW, maybe thanks to TWC had a lot of exposure, blooded some very good lads and was probably the first 'medium sized' promotion in Ireland. It's apples and oranges comparing IWW and OTT, but comparing NWA to IWW is a fairer one. IWW ran bigger shows and chucked out more lads, but NWA was probably more succesful in who they did turn out.

SquidLad · 14-03-2018 2:38pm

brianblaze wrote: »

NWA and moreso Fergal deserve a lot more credit for growing talent in Ireland. (Devlin, Morrow, Devitt and Becky) I loved IWW, but Seamus started his training in the States, and Barrett and Galloway in the UK. IWW hitched to that clown Norton at the start which drove a lot of trainees away, and then Burridge came along who by all accounts was sound but no idea what he was like to train with.

IWW, maybe thanks to TWC had a lot of exposure, blooded some very good lads and was probably the first 'medium sized' promotion in Ireland. It's apples and oranges comparing IWW and OTT, but comparing NWA to IWW is a fairer one. IWW ran bigger shows and chucked out more lads, but NWA was probably more succesful in who they did turn out.

Yeah, exactly. This is basically what I said earlier. If you were comparing IWW and NWA solely on the basis of who had the more successful roster, NWA would win easily.

leggo · 14-03-2018 3:22pm

Yeah no sorry SquidLad, I did say that you weren’t being a dick and I don’t think you’re doing it to further a narrative or anything. But a lot of your facts are all over the place: Sheamus paid for a few months training in the States, got hurt early into it and felt ripped off because he couldn’t train and didn’t get a refund. He came back and pretty much gave up on wrestling until he met a guy who was starting his own promotion while working in a bar and that’s how IWW began (he confuses this narrative himself to be fair by telling this story differently depending on what point he wants to make, but that was his story back in the day and checks out with those around him). Bruiser wrestled outside of Ireland frequently. Manson was full time and did quite well for a few years. I dunno if you’re getting info off CageMatch or whatever but, while an interesting resource, that misses a bunch even with me personally has me down as wrestling a bunch in Australia and other random places and I’ve never even set foot in the place! So it’s more reference point than bible.

I wouldn’t compare, tbh, that’s a redundant exercise and minimises the achievements of each promotion, all of which have contributed in their own right. Like comparing OTT with IWW is ridiculous, OTT are miles ahead of what they ever were. It’s like comparing Pele to Messi, two different generations and because football has evolved most League 2 players today would probably best Pele in his prime. But Pele’s achievements for his time and the circumstances he dealt with are formidable and why he still gets brought up.

What I’d say is a more accurate (if less fun) reading is that OTT likely doesn’t happen if not for IWW/NWA/AWR etc. They both broke ground in their own ways that enabled what we have today. There was a time when you’d get laughed at if you mentioned wrestling to the likes of media or sponsors, I know because it was my job to get laughed at! Now, because those promotions made those 1000 calls to get 1 reply and helped massively by the success of guys like Balor, Becky, Sheamus etc, the likes of JOE.ie or Balls will cover the likes of OTT quite freely which helps it become this behemoth it is today. They also got to start the promotion with guys who’d been wrestling 10+ years, had a much better resource of knowledge to train lads with because the likes of Joe and Fergal are bringing stuff back from NXT, Japan etc to help lads improve at a massive rate. And so on.

The reality is we have a great situation here now and that is the result of various people from various promotions who worked their arse off when that was just a dream. Be it IWW/NWA/FFPW/AWR, all of it counts. So to casually slight or minimise those achievements for whatever reason is just false and displays a lack of understanding for how a situation like we have now comes to pass.

oneilla · 14-03-2018 5:30pm

All this old-school chat had me look up the 3rd IWW show in the basketball arena that I attended https://www.cagematch.net/?id=1&nr=3460&page=2. This was the one with Jake Roberts. It's just amazing how far wrestling in Ireland has come. Back then there weren't many women in the audience and no age restrictions so lots of kids there despite there being a more hardcore element. Iirc the first show had Zandig and Juatice Pain do a deathmatch with barbed wire and stuff.

Would love to see them early shows for the nostalgia but not sure if I'd wanna pay for them. A friend had some VHS tapes bouht from Templecom on Aston Quay and I don't remember the video quality being the best due to the limitations of early digital video technology.

Would agree with Leggo that you can't really compare the early shows from the 2000s with today's shows. FFPW show in Hangar in Dublin in December was as well produced as OTT shows and was pretty great.

leggo · 14-03-2018 5:34pm

oneilla wrote: »

Would agree with Leggo that you can't really compare the early shows from the 2000s with today's shows. FFPW show in Hangar in Dublin in December was as well produced as OTT shows and was pretty great.

Yes, great shout! Place looked the business and you could tell how hungry the talent was, plus it felt like something special and different, really underground vibe similar to early OTT shows. Also thought their last show Dive Hard was really strong. There’s a lot of great stuff going on there that shouldn’t be going under anyone's radar!

showpony1 · 14-03-2018 6:22pm

oneilla wrote: »

All this old-school chat had me look up the 3rd IWW show in the basketball arena that I attended https://www.cagematch.net/?id=1&nr=3460&page=2. This was the one with Jake Roberts. It's just amazing how far wrestling in Ireland has come. Back then there weren't many women in the audience and no age restrictions so lots of kids there despite there being a more hardcore element. Iirc the first show had Zandig and Juatice Pain do a deathmatch with barbed wire and stuff.

Would love to see them early shows for the nostalgia but not sure if I'd wanna pay for them. A friend had some VHS tapes bouht from Templecom on Aston Quay and I don't remember the video quality being the best due to the limitations of early digital video technology.

Would agree with Leggo that you can't really compare the early shows from the 2000s with today's shows. FFPW show in Hangar in Dublin in December was as well produced as OTT shows and was pretty great.

I remember as a kid thinking Johnny Storm vs Jody Fleisch was the best match i'd ever seen on that IWW Jake Roberts card!

I remember a load of irish backyard workers doing moves on each other in the crowd during the breaks, some teenager dropped a guy with a TKO right onto the wooden basketball floor!

B.A._Baracus · 14-03-2018 9:03pm

SquidLad wrote: »

If I'm Joe Cabray, I'm not sure I'd want the IWW library, to be brutally honest. Irish Whip had its moments but a lot of it was f'ing horrendously bad. Have a look at this match between The Blagger Boys and Team Sexy? The Sexy Lads?, forget what they were called. All the worst aspects of bad indie wrestling are on display here. Silly gimmicks, lads who're barely trained, ten people in the audience etc... Not exactly the thing you'd want to associate your "cool"; "edgy" wrestling product with.

To be fair there is a lot more than 10 people there. If you wanna get technical iww drew way more than nwa Ireland around that time too. That's when ever nwa Ireland bloody ran shows.

Look whiplash was what it was. But I do remember snide remarks being made on boards.ie and even ukff too (which has a lot of English indy guys posting on it)

My two cents was that there was a lot of jealously involved. These lads are ****, iww is **** yadda yadda. Most of these comments were coming from people who would have gladly took an iww booking to appear on the wrestling channel via whiplash. Of course so many where hiding behind a username rather than saying they were xyz wrestler.

Same thing would happen today if say ccpw got onto, I dunno, tv3... Youd have lads from other promotions calling it ****. Why? Because they're not on it.

SquidLad · 15-03-2018 12:52am

B.A._Baracus wrote: »

To be fair there is a lot more than 10 people there. If you wanna get technical iww drew way more than nwa Ireland around that time too. That's when ever nwa Ireland bloody ran shows.

Look whiplash was what it was. But I do remember snide remarks being made on boards.ie and even ukff too (which has a lot of English indy guys posting on it)

My two cents was that there was a lot of jealously involved. These lads are ****, iww is **** yadda yadda. Most of these comments were coming from people who would have gladly took an iww booking to appear on the wrestling channel via whiplash. Of course so many where hiding behind a username rather than saying they were xyz wrestler.

Same thing would happen today if say ccpw got onto, I dunno, tv3... Youd have lads from other promotions calling it ****. Why? Because they're not on it.

Okay, well I am being hyperbolic. The actual number, if I remember correctly was something like 40 for this show. Which is still abysmal. But that doesn't matter. My whole point was simply that IWW wasn't as great as you remember and just about every Irish indy going today eclipses it in quality. And come on like, you can't watch that episode of Whiplash and tell me that it isn't a horrendous piece of television. And I'm not cherry picking bad stuff here (okay, well I am, a little bit). But it's not like that Blagger Boys VS Team Sexy match was an anomaly. IWW was basically all the wrestling I watched back in 05/06 and I remember cards (especially the smaller ones without any major imports) were regularly filled with embarrassingly bad stuff like this.

leggo · 15-03-2018 1:09am

SquidLad wrote: »

IWW was basically all the wrestling I watched back in 05/06 and I remember cards (especially the smaller ones without any major imports) were regularly filled with embarrassingly bad stuff like this.

Like you're allowed dislike whatever you want, that's your opinion, but it does raise the obvious question...why did you continue to go to shows you thought were really bad?!

I think stuff like that, along with you going back on your point in every post ("I'm not just picking the bad stuff...okay that's exactly what I'm doing...") is why you're getting grilled a bit.

I mean, I don't disagree with some of what you're saying. Whiplash series 1 was awful for the most part but had some promising talents and good ideas (class refereeing though to be fair :cool::pac:). I don't think anyone would argue much there. They weren't ready for TV by any means. But would anyone have said no to that offer? It raised their profile exponentially as a company and started attracting talent like Drew and Stu who would help turn the company into something respectable, as well as then being able to attract top class indie talent like Pac/Neville who were looking for exposure. Series 2 was a lot better, aside from a couple tapings that drew poorly (and there's a story behind that in itself), and that wouldn't have happened without Series 1.

So what's the story here? Wrestlers that aren't ready aren't good, whereas wrestlers with more experience are better. It's hardly groundbreaking news like and it's kinda dickish to mock guys who were being thrown out there, taking opportunities like anyone else would for little to no pay, before they were ready. And OTT, having had the benefit of those wrestlers now honing their trade over years and the scene learning from past trial and error, are better. That's how everything works. You learn and you improve. I don't think anyone is saying IWW were better, but they were really important in the landscape of wrestling over here and deserve credit as such instead of people saying, "LOL look that lad who had a few months training is worse than lads who have years behind them."

SquidLad · 15-03-2018 1:16am

leggo wrote: »

Like you're allowed dislike whatever you want, that's your opinion, but it does raise the obvious question...why did you continue to go to shows you thought were really bad?!"

Well, I was 13. And your tastes change over time. Like I was definitely able to identify some of the really bad stuff but I was just happy to have any live wrestling to go to. It's why I'm trying to emphasize the "not as good as you remember" point. IWW, like the Attitude Era was cool at the time but has aged horribly and I don't necessarily think it would make for the best footage on OTT on demand.

SquidLad · 15-03-2018 1:26am

leggo wrote: »

So what's the story here? Wrestlers that aren't ready aren't good, whereas wrestlers with more experience are better. It's hardly groundbreaking news like and it's kinda dickish to mock guys who were being thrown out there, taking opportunities like anyone else would for little to no pay, before they were ready. And OTT, having had the benefit of those wrestlers now honing their trade over years and the scene learning from past trial and error, are better. That's how everything works. You learn and you improve. I don't think anyone is saying IWW were better, but they were really important in the landscape of wrestling over here and deserve credit as such instead of people saying, "LOL look that lad who had a few months training is worse than lads who have years behind them."

I don't consider it "dickish". And I'm not "mocking" anyone. I guess I just don't subscribe to this "go easy on them" mentality. You wouldn't do it for any other promotion so why IWW? I am (or was) a fan who was being presented with a largely bad product. Like am I supposed to hold them to a lower standard and say "yeah that match was ****e but the wrestlers were barely trained so c'est la vie". That's a terrible attitude to have and would probably be bad for the industry as a whole.

And I'm not going back on my point. My stance is and has always been that IWW could fairly f'ing bad a lot of the time. Though that Blagger Boys VS Team Sexy match I will admit is particularly awful so I felt it was only fair to point that out.

B.A._Baracus · 15-03-2018 2:26am

SquidLad wrote: »

I don't consider it "dickish". And I'm not "mocking" anyone. I guess I just don't subscribe to this "go easy on them" mentality. You wouldn't do it for any other promotion so why IWW? I am (or was) a fan who was being presented with a largely bad product. Like am I supposed to hold them to a lower standard and say "yeah that match was ****e but the wrestlers were barely trained so c'est la vie". That's a terrible attitude to have and would probably be bad for the industry as a whole.

And I'm not going back on my point. My stance is and has always been that IWW could fairly f'ing bad a lot of the time. Though that Blagger Boys VS Team Sexy match I will admit is particularly awful so I felt it was only fair to point that out.

It was what is was.
The IWW wrestlers were only wrestling since Summer 2004 and Whiplash started in 2005. NWA-Ireland or even Celtic Pro Wrestling would not have done any better at the time.

Let's fast forward to now and FreeSports released it's top 10 shows and 5* Wrestling does not appear in it. The last listing, university rugby, pulls in 16,000 viewers per week. So who knows how many people are watching 5*. Despite the fact it has guys like RVD, Mysterio and other names on it. It too is what it is (a wrestling show on a satellite channel) and a lot of people are calling that sh*t.

leggo · 15-03-2018 9:02am

SquidLad wrote: »

Well, I was 13. And your tastes change over time. Like I was definitely able to identify some of the really bad stuff but I was just happy to have any live wrestling to go to. It's why I'm trying to emphasize the "not as good as you remember" point. IWW, like the Attitude Era was cool at the time but has aged horribly and I don't necessarily think it would make for the best footage on OTT on demand.

Right, well I’m not gonna tell a small business owner who’s doing really well what they should or shouldn’t do with their business. Someone asked about the old IWW footage, I answered and said it’d be cool if other promotions from today gave their footage to OTT to get extra exposure, but unrealistic in reality. My point about IWW was always that they were important and, while it became cool to stick the boot in, they don’t get the credit they deserve because without them and the other young promotions that blazed a trail...you don’t get the great situation we have today.

I really don’t understand what your issue is though. You say yourself you were happy to have indie wrestling to go to back then. You’re ****ting on lads’ work from 13 years ago while they were inexperienced...why exactly?! Because you’re concerned about your critical reputation as SquidLad and don’t wanna be seen as ‘going easy on them’?

Sirsok · 15-03-2018 11:11am

Conor Hurley FTW!!!

SquidLad · 15-03-2018 2:09pm

leggo wrote: »

Right, well I’m not gonna tell a small business owner who’s doing really well what they should or shouldn’t do with their business. Someone asked about the old IWW footage, I answered and said it’d be cool if other promotions from today gave their footage to OTT to get extra exposure, but unrealistic in reality. My point about IWW was always that they were important and, while it became cool to stick the boot in, they don’t get the credit they deserve because without them and the other young promotions that blazed a trail...you don’t get the great situation we have today.

I really don’t understand what your issue is though. You say yourself you were happy to have indie wrestling to go to back then. You’re ****ting on lads’ work from 13 years ago while they were inexperienced...why exactly?! Because you’re concerned about your critical reputation as SquidLad and don’t wanna be seen as ‘going easy on them’?

I've explained my position several times now Leggo and it feels like you're being purposefully obtuse. Like, what's so hard to understand? When I was a kid I watched a lot of IWW. Now, looking back as a 25 year old man I realize that a lot of IWW was quite bad. You keep making variations of the same argument: "they were young and inexperienced, give them a break". And I keep telling you I don't care. A bad product is a bad product. End of.

weareallmarks · 15-03-2018 2:12pm

Lads, without IIW/NWA-I the OTT movement wouldnt exist. That is where it starts. As for whether you like it or not, that is just taste. Some peope love omega and some dont ... Both are right. You can look back on a film from the 80's and the sfx will look bad, but without the bad sfx in the 80's the great sfx in the avengers wouldnt exist

Do you get me??

leggo · 15-03-2018 2:31pm

I’m kinda over this debate, I just think it’s ridiculous to slate inexperienced people as bad and discredit a whole product because there were some elements that weren’t up to scratch with a world that’s grown and evolved massively in the years since. It’s kinda like going to an LOI match and giving out because they’re not as good as Messi, you’re judging them at a grade they’re not at and that’s something you knew making that judgement. So it just sounds like you just want to call something bad.

jeffk · 15-03-2018 2:38pm

I went to A LOT of IWW and I have to say I enjoyed myself, didn't care for Sheamus etc, rathered the high flyers etc

To me it's like the League of Ireland and premiership, both are football but worlds apart in almost all aspects. How often can you realistically go to the UK to see them play compared to seeing your local team? A handful versus almost every game.

That's how I seen IWW, it was wrestling, not on a par with WWE(thought the house effort/card at times was terrible), but it was usually local and taking it for what it was I enjoyed it, plus E10/15 a ticket versus say E50 for WWE you could go to IWW a lot more

As a general theme, someone had to be the first and IWW was it

SquidLad · 15-03-2018 2:44pm

leggo wrote: »

I’m kinda over this debate, I just think it’s ridiculous to slate inexperienced people as bad and discredit a whole product because there were some elements that weren’t up to scratch with a world that’s grown and evolved massively in the years since. It’s kinda like going to an LOI match and giving out because they’re not as good as Messi, you’re judging them at a grade they’re not at and that’s something you knew making that judgement. So it just sounds like you just want to call something bad.

Oh give over. This is a weak excuse and you wouldn't accept it for any other wrestling promotion. In fact, you wouldn't accept it in general. Imagine if you went to the cinema and a disclaimer came up that said "the crew was very inexperienced so please be nice". I shouldn't need to explain that that's not how the world works. IWW wanted a seat at the big boy's table. They routinely referred to themselves as one of the best companies in the world. Therefore they get judged on their own merits. Just like every other wrestling company.

leggo · 15-03-2018 3:03pm

Actually people can use context to judge something and I gave you an example (the LOI) in the post you quoted. Same reason if I went to the cinema and saw Avengers and it was awful, I’d be pretty angry: they have great actors, a crazy budget, a big studio behind them giving them every resources to put forth a great movies. If I stuck on True Movies at 2am or went to see an arthouse indie movie made on a shoestring, I wouldn’t go online going mental about how the script was a bit naff or the actors weren’t Oscar-worthy. What did I expect?! Yet you seem to be oblivious to the idea of context.

In comparing IWW to OTT, you’re essentially comparing Power Rangers to Sopranos. One was a smaller kids show using young actors to give children something to watch, the other is a show aimed at adults, bankrolled by HBO using veteran actors. And your exact situation is pretty much apeing that comparison: “I watched Power Rangers as a child but rewatched it there and the acting is awful compared to shows I like today!” Yeah. You’ve grown up. You’re watching products for grown ups now with people more experienced to give older people what they’re looking for. Of course it’s better. But to do a Sopranos people have to go through a show like Power Rangers to learn their trade. You seem to be the only person struggling with this very simple concept.

SquidLad · 15-03-2018 3:36pm

leggo wrote: »

Actually people can use context to judge something and I gave you an example (the LOI) in the post you quoted. Same reason if I went to the cinema and saw Avengers and it was awful, I’d be pretty angry: they have great actors, a crazy budget, a big studio behind them giving them every resources to put forth a great movies. If I stuck on True Movies at 2am or went to see an arthouse indie movie made on a shoestring, I wouldn’t go online going mental about how the script was a bit naff or the actors weren’t Oscar-worthy. What did I expect?! Yet you seem to be oblivious to the idea of context.

In comparing IWW to OTT, you’re essentially comparing Power Rangers to Sopranos. One was a smaller kids show using young actors to give children something to watch, the other is a show aimed at adults, bankrolled by HBO using veteran actors. And your exact situation is pretty much apeing that comparison: “I watched Power Rangers as a child but rewatched it there and the acting is awful compared to shows I like today!” Yeah. You’ve grown up. You’re watching products for grown ups now with people more experienced to give older people what they’re looking for. Of course it’s better. But to do a Sopranos people have to go through a show like Power Rangers to learn their trade. You seem to be the only person struggling with this very simple concept.

Your conflating resources/budget with quality. And as the mid 2000s are often referred to as the golden age of indy wrestling, when various low budget indys were touted as being better than WWE, it should be clear that "low budget" and "quality" are not mutually exclusive concepts. Again, you can cry foul about how unfair it is for me to compare IWW to something like ROH. And once again, I don't care. I, as a fan and a customer, have no choice but to judge everything on its own merits. There was a lot of great indy wrestling in 2006 and I don't feel IWW measured up.

Your line about "it's for kids, what do you expect?" seems pretty desperate to me. I hear it a lot and it's a complete fallacy that does a massive disservice to the thing you're trying to defend. First of all, I don't actually believe that IWW was solely for kids. If it was, why did they book a match like AJ Styles VS Christopher Daniels in a venue like the SFX theatre? But let's pretend it was just for kids. So what? There's a difference between being a good kids show and a bad kids show. Hell, some of my favorite shows of all time have been for kids: 'Avatar the Last Airbender', 'Gravity Falls' etc... For a wrestling example, think of Chikara. They were a company that was massively aimed at kids. They had comedy and goofy characters and Chikara was awesome in the mid 2000s. If your really going for the "its for kids" defense then fine. It was a bad kids show.

leggo · 15-03-2018 5:09pm

You’re saying you’re judging it on its own merits but then comparing it to ROH because...halls? No, they’re completely different companies, the only thing they had in common was “not WWE”!

ROH then would be more like an OTT: a super-indie who ran regular spot shows aimed at adults who’ll travel bringing in name talent from feeder promotions then selling that on DVD (since they were owned originally by RF Video). IWW tried that with their first couple shows then shifted to become a local feeder promotion, more comparable to Fight Factory, in growing their own talent and using imports on bigger shows to help build them, then selling by touring the main roster for family shows. If you’re going to judge them on their merits, judge them on that, because that’s their merit, I was there like. If someone compared OTT and Fight Factory today they’d be rightly ridiculed because it’s two completely different companies with different sets of objectives.

And on that merit they were extremely successful and massively overachieved, to the point you now compare them to ROH (even unfavourably) when they should’ve had no right to be! You don’t have to like them, it’s totally your prerogative to have your own taste. But to say they were bad is just false and only highlights your own misunderstanding. If a person is new in a job, are they a bad worker or just new? If a feeder company explodes and runs national tours and a TV show before they’re ready...are they bad or overachieving? We made you believe we were in the same ballpark as ROH when we were all going broke trying to make it work like!

SquidLad · 15-03-2018 6:03pm

leggo wrote: »

You’re saying you’re judging it on its own merits but then comparing it to ROH because...halls? No, they’re completely different companies, the only thing they had in common was “not WWE”!

ROH then would be more like an OTT: a super-indie who ran regular spot shows aimed at adults who’ll travel bringing in name talent from feeder promotions then selling that on DVD (since they were owned originally by RF Video). IWW tried that with their first couple shows then shifted to become a local feeder promotion, more comparable to Fight Factory, in growing their own talent and using imports on bigger shows to help build them, then selling by touring the main roster for family shows. If you’re going to judge them on their merits, judge them on that, because that’s their merit, I was there like. If someone compared OTT and Fight Factory today they’d be rightly ridiculed because it’s two completely different companies with different sets of objectives.

And on that merit they were extremely successful and massively overachieved, to the point you now compare them to ROH (even unfavourably) when they should’ve had no right to be! You don’t have to like them, it’s totally your prerogative to have your own taste. But to say they were bad is just false and only highlights your own misunderstanding. If a person is new in a job, are they a bad worker or just new? If a feeder company explodes and runs national tours and a TV show before they’re ready...are they bad or overachieving? We made you believe we were in the same ballpark as ROH when we were all going broke trying to make it work like!

Let's get something straight. I'm not comparing IWW just to ROH. I'm comparing it to the entirety of indy wrestling. Because, like I've said a hundred times now, that's only fair. Why should IWW get special treatment? Everything gets judged on its own merits. And as we've established "budget ≠ quality". After all Chikara started off much the same way as IWW, with one talented guy and a handful of trainees. In fact, Chikara had arguably even less resources than IWW but they went on to become a great product. IWW, in my opinion, did not.

Your analogy about a person being new at their job would only work if IWW went on to become good. But they didn't. They peaked in 05/06 (and even then IMO were still not particularly good) and went downhill from there. They lost their buzz, their talent, their TV show and by the end Mandrake was wrestling bad holiday camp watches with The Model.

And one other thing. When I say I'm comparing IWW to different indies, I'm only doing so on one criteria, sheer "quality". For example, I think 'Annie Hall' is as funny as 'Star Wars' is exciting. They're both equally good but for different reasons. In wrestling, I think Chikara was as good at presenting comedy as ROH was at presenting technical matches. Obviously, IWW was stylistically very different from ROH and Chikara but that doesn't mean it couldn't have been "good" or "as good" or "better" at whatever they presented. I guess the final point I'm trying to make is "IWW excelled in no particular area".

I'm frankly a little irritated that you would claim I have a "misunderstanding". Since this is probably the one wrestling conversation I do feel I'm qualified to weigh in on. I was in the thick of it during the mid 2000s Irish wrestling boom. I lived it and I remember it well. But Jesus I'm exhausted from this and you probably are as well. This debate has got to end so if you want to get a last word in go ahead.

leggo · 15-03-2018 7:58pm

I’m tapping too. See you back here in a few weeks to talk about how DCW changed the game.

Omackeral · 15-03-2018 8:08pm

That was a solid feud lads, a real 60 minute Broadway. Well done to both of you!

SquidLad · 15-03-2018 11:10pm

Omackeral wrote: »

That was a solid feud lads, a real 60 minute Broadway. Well done to both of you!

The angle where Darren banned me from the IWW forum to set the match up was great too.

leggo · 16-03-2018 12:32am

SquidLad wrote: »

The angle where Darren banned me from the IWW forum to set the match up was great too.

There it is! I knew there'd be something, there's always something! Class twist. :pac:

SquidLad · 16-03-2018 12:40am

leggo wrote: »

There it is! I knew there'd be something, there's always something! Class twist. :pac:

I got banned so many times from that place it was ridiculous. I definitely deserved most of them though. I was a right little **** when I was 14 lol.

LeeJM · 16-03-2018 9:04am

Forget Whiplash Tv I wanna see the IWW Gym Wars shows. Yes there was only 20 of us there watching but still some of the best laughs I had was at those shows

Sirsok · 16-03-2018 10:12am

I was involved in a six man match st gym wars, where one of my partners went bathroom mid match and stayed there, cause his he hurt his nose.

I covered the finish which involved a missed vader splash from him, but as he wasn't around I did it, and he approached me at the end and told me not to steal his moves.

Omackeral · 16-03-2018 10:28am

Ha ha ha what a carny!!! That’s gas Sirsok. You going into business for yourself and him getting p*ssed about it even though he walked out. Sounds like a Russo storyline.

beakerjoe · 16-03-2018 3:28pm

This thread over the last 2/3 pages was a good laugh "one more match, one more match".

A nice health arguement, well done to both, Squidlads gets my vote (runs away from leggo)

B.A._Baracus · 16-03-2018 3:54pm

If anyone wants to continue talking about old Irish shows what about those fake wwe tribute shows. Bad. So bad :pac:

Some old Welsh guy with fake tan sprayed all over him pretending to be the rock with an eyebrow painted on him to boot :pac:

beakerjoe · 16-03-2018 3:57pm

B.A._Baracus wrote: »

If anyone wants to continue talking about old Irish shows what about those fake wwe tribute shows. Bad. So bad :pac:

Some old Welsh guy with fake tan sprayed all over him pretending to be the rock with an eyebrow painted on him to boot :pac:

Ah the posters looked so bad, even Kain (think thats how he was spelt) didnt look convincing.

SquidLad · 16-03-2018 4:03pm

If we're gonna keep talking about old Irish graps, there are some questions that have been rattling around in my head for the last decade or so.

Does anyone know:

1) If it's true that Simon Rocheford got the money to fund IWW because a keg of beer fell on him?

2) What exactly happened between Mark Burns and Vid Vain?

3) What was up with that press release where IWW blamed Sheamus' publicist for his leaving the company?

SquidLad · 16-03-2018 4:31pm

Oh, and one more! Who was The Celtic Tiger? Why did he have a video package on the first Whiplash episode but never make an appearance?

weareallmarks · 16-03-2018 4:40pm

And you wonder why you where banned multiple times from the iww forum squidward?????

SquidLad · 16-03-2018 4:47pm

weareallmarks wrote: »

And you wonder why you where banned multiple times from the iww forum squidward?????

I thought I made it clear that I know exactly why I was banned. But truthfully, I didn't think these would still be sore issues after nearly fifteen years. Consider them retracted if you wish.

Cherry_Cola · 16-03-2018 5:31pm

I actually have footage of the chaos of the missing ring event in Cork

Sirsok · 16-03-2018 5:40pm

Anyone know what happened with DCW, seemed to put on decently attended shows, that feature a very young Pete Dunne and Ryan Smile , seen picture recently of a show, Pete dunne didnt look like a potential superstar that he has become.

Also whats the story with 2unlimited, there video packages looked great, they looked really agile. I know they did an ott show recently but havent heard anything apart from that for years.

Is emerald championship wrestling still going?

I have an old gym wars dvd somewhere that I was involved in, was a rumble. Horrendous stuff lookimg back! They named me Shane The Brusiser, I think it was during a period that Ballymun Bruiser left the company and they wanted to get back at him.

I remember wrestling at a show, where there was only four wrestlers on the thing. Mandrake, Conor Hurley and what went onto be Bobby George Jnr under the name of Rob Cage. They called it the King Of Yaughal cup. Consisted of two semi finals, Me and Mandrake, Connor and Rob Cage, in the semis, then intermission, then the final which included am interference withich then lead to a tag match. Was my last match for the company!

B.A._Baracus · 17-03-2018 12:56am

beakerjoe wrote: »

Ah the posters looked so bad, even Kain (think thats how he was spelt) didnt look convincing.

Yeah. They were very bad shows. Obviously geared towards very young kids but still :pac:

If I recall correctly the late Lee Butler wrestled as Mankind on one of them.

leggo · 17-03-2018 1:42am

Sirsok wrote: »

I have an old gym wars dvd somewhere that I was involved in, was a rumble. Horrendous stuff lookimg back! They named me Shane The Brusiser, I think it was during a period that Ballymun Bruiser left the company and they wanted to get back at him.

I remember wrestling at a show, where there was only four wrestlers on the thing. Mandrake, Conor Hurley and what went onto be Bobby George Jnr under the name of Rob Cage. They called it the King Of Yaughal cup. Consisted of two semi finals, Me and Mandrake, Connor and Rob Cage, in the semis, then intermission, then the final which included am interference withich then lead to a tag match. Was my last match for the company!

I believe it got quite bad there for a while, they were doing their old shtick but it wasn’t working and the arse dropped out of Irish wrestling in general for a few years. But by all accounts it’s a grand place to work these days. They have their setup and are happy with it, and anyone I know who works there is happy too.

Irish Promotions Thread *Please read post 1* (*Mod Warning Post #3947)

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Irish Promotions Thread Please read post 1 (*Mod Warning Post #3947)