Irish Promotions Thread Please read post 1 (*Mod Warning Post #3947)

leggo · 11-03-2018 5:06pm

Manson is officially retired and only does the odd spot, I think basically to hang out with his mates every now and then. I’d love him on OTT though, the thoughts of him and Angel Cruz working together...

brianblaze · 11-03-2018 6:22pm

That's such a shame. Dude got in shape, looked the part, worked well and was hilarious. He'd flourish now I reckon.

Also sad that Red Vinny didn't last til now as well. All the original IWW guys who had talent kind of tapered out at just the wrong time

leggo · 11-03-2018 8:43pm

brianblaze wrote: »

That's such a shame. Dude got in shape, looked the part, worked well and was hilarious. He'd flourish now I reckon.

Also sad that Red Vinny didn't last til now as well. All the original IWW guys who had talent kind of tapered out at just the wrong time

To be fair, I'd look at it more like they had their time and can always say they were part of the first boom of wrestling in Ireland, now the next generation are getting their shot at the spotlight. There are so many people in the scene already fighting for limited spots, it'd get even more clogged if people who'd already had a 'moment' were taking top spots.

What I'd say could be better (though it's nobody in particular's responsibility and that's part of why) is tapping into that history that's there. People should feel a lot more nostalgic for the likes of the Ballymun Bruiser, Vic Viper and Bingo Ballance who are still wrestling and have a list of accomplishments to rival anyone on the scene today, they're big deals but nobody is really telling that story. For example: Vic fought Christopher Daniels in a great match in the main event of a big, sold out show, Bruiser had a high profile match with Doug Williams in his prime, Ballance beat Neville in another sold out show to become the first IwW Zero Gravity Champion. Promoters could make something of that and make money with these guys if they wanted to.

B.A._Baracus · 12-03-2018 6:58am

brianblaze wrote: »

That's such a shame. Dude got in shape, looked the part, worked well and was hilarious. He'd flourish now I reckon.

Also sad that Red Vinny didn't last til now as well. All the original IWW guys who had talent kind of tapered out at just the wrong time

It is gas about Manson alright. To give the chap credit he really got in shape towards the end of his career. You could argue perhaps where he would have gotten if he was in good shape 10 years ago. Wrestling is a cosmetic industry as they say.

It's weird to look back 10 to 15 years ago and see how many guys from IWW, CPW etc just fizzled out. But guys just become burned out. For various reasons.
Some just get sick of wrestling on the lower indy promotions (lack of progression), some get tired of the environment as sadly there is a lot of negatives in wrestling (people being two faced, ass kissing, politics, promoters stirring sh*t etc) to guys just training and not getting booked.

brianblaze · 12-03-2018 5:51pm

I'd imagine a few are annoyed they didn't jump on the AWR wagon when they had a chance

And Manson got in shape when he went full time, not towards the end of his career. Still one of the funniest wrestler's I've seen

showpony1 · 12-03-2018 6:06pm

B.A._Baracus wrote: »

some get tired of the environment as sadly there is a lot of negatives in wrestling (people being two faced, ass kissing, politics, promoters stirring sh*t etc).

Did you give someone a snug handshake backstage brother?

B.A._Baracus · 12-03-2018 11:39pm

brianblaze wrote: »

I'd imagine a few are annoyed they didn't jump on the AWR wagon when they had a chance

And Manson got in shape when he went full time, not towards the end of his career. Still one of the funniest wrestler's I've seen

People were always trying to get booked on American Wrestling Rampage once it first started.
Sure you could start your very own wrestling promotion tomorrow and and a lot of the lads would be emailing you for a booking. Why shouldn't they

But with AWR bringing over so many names everyone wanted to get a booking more so.
So it really wasn't a case of people of failing to jump on it.... So many tried to get a booking just so many didn't.

showpony1 wrote: »

Did you give someone a snug handshake backstage brother?

:pac:
But people just get burned out. Even Daniel Bryan said himself in a shoot interview / in the ring video years ago. He was talking about the progression aspect tho.
You wrestle for a few years.... still wrestling in the same promotion.... same country etc. You just get burned out.

leggo · 13-03-2018 1:26am

To be fair, at the time being involved in the scene AWR just seemed like something so distant (like a promotion catching on big in the US/UK, you’d be like ‘oh cool’ and carry on with your own day to day stuff). It sounded really cool that they were working huge houses across Europe, but it wasn’t something anyone I knew was desperate to get involved in. I feel I hear more about it now when I’m not particularly involved, through stories from lads about it on Twitter/podcasts etc, than when I was. So I wouldn’t say many were desperate to get in at the time, that’s not my recollection. I know myself I’d have probably gone out of my way to work with FFPW than AWR if I wanted to work elsewhere, just because it felt actually accessible and within reach. I wouldn’t have even had a clue how to go about getting in with AWR. They didn’t advertise much and weren’t very public because they didn’t need to be with their model.

I also wouldn’t say that lads are sorry they didn’t get involved because it’s costing them OTT bookings now. OTT use people from everywhere now, they have to because they put out so much stuff with Contenders, Belfast etc, I doubt grudges even come into it because they’ve got a business to run and need bodies. So if someone isn’t getting used there it’s likely because they don’t fit their current vision (I know even with my own line of work, which is different but not dissimilar in many aspects, if I don’t use someone it’s more because I don’t see how I’d fit them in current plans than thinking something negative about them) or lads aren’t that pushed themselves to go through the necessary steps to get used. The scene has grown up a lot in recent years and gotten much better for it, there’s MUCH less of that petty stuff going around anymore.

spektorfive · 13-03-2018 10:05pm

Who would own the rights to IWW stuff? Could it appear on the On Demand service for OTT and be a cool look back on Irish wrestling.

leggo · 13-03-2018 10:48pm

spektorfive wrote: »

Who would own the rights to IWW stuff? Could it appear on the On Demand service for OTT and be a cool look back on Irish wrestling.

I think I heard Wrestling.ie bought some, if not all, but that would be cool. Not all of it but the TV show and some other big shows would be a nice add. Old NWA Ireland/FFPW shows would be class too, obviously they’ve massively increased in currency over the years with how well so many of their lads have done.

It’d probably never happen but I’d personally love if CCW, PWU, Uprising etc started uploading their shows there. I couldn’t say with any certainty how many hits they get vs how many subs OTT have, but it’s not even close in popularity and allowing OTT to have their content would make me, and a lot of others I’d say, more inclined to check them out while OTT would directly profit from the extra subs. Again, not realistic, but would be cool.

Sirsok · 14-03-2018 12:00am

Hey leggo, we may have just missed each other when I was in IWW, (angry andy and ragin rick represent), but what do you think were the reasons for IWWs ultimate demise ( demise considering their decreased influence over the years on the scene).

I have my own opinions however you seem to of been much closer to the nucleus in rathdowney then I may have been!

SquidLad · 14-03-2018 12:22am

spektorfive wrote: »

Who would own the rights to IWW stuff? Could it appear on the On Demand service for OTT and be a cool look back on Irish wrestling.

If I'm Joe Cabray, I'm not sure I'd want the IWW library, to be brutally honest. Irish Whip had its moments but a lot of it was f'ing horrendously bad. Have a look at this match between The Blagger Boys and Team Sexy? The Sexy Lads?, forget what they were called. All the worst aspects of bad indie wrestling are on display here. Silly gimmicks, lads who're barely trained, ten people in the audience etc... Not exactly the thing you'd want to associate your "cool"; "edgy" wrestling product with.

leggo · 14-03-2018 12:36am

It just ran its course I think. It was a really good promotion for the old school method of promoting that kinda got caught as wrestling (and the world) changed. I ran a lot of the day to day stuff for a good while and tried to modernise it with social media etc, but it was just something there wasn’t a real urgency or hunger for when perhaps there should’ve been. Its old school leanings also made it a bit carney in certain aspects, but with the rise of the internet that stuff started to become more transparent because people would talk among themselves, and they didn’t adapt quickly enough so it created a contentious relationship with the public (which I felt, seeing both sides, was a bit unfair and kinda the John Cena/Roman Reigns effect of it becoming cool to pick on something when it gets so big).

Then there was the incident with the Cork ring van breaking down. It was a freak accident and, even though I was on the way out and not even on that tour, I got the call to come back and help try smooth it over. But people were ready to stick the knife in whether it was fair to do so or not. The losses from that show also created a ‘need money now’ aspect and some bad stunts backfired, in turn both souring the promoter on their ambitious plans and, as a result, a lot of performers there. So it had a knock on effect as the roster significantly weakened and the promoter wasn’t running big shows anymore so not attracting talent to replace them.

It’s nobody’s fault really. There could’ve been things done better but they were also the first promotion here to do anything with any kind of size, so sadly they were the ones to have to make the mistakes for everyone else to learn from. Some people blame the promoter but I wouldn’t personally, I think that’s just projection more than anything (though also I wasn’t in their shoes either to be fair). I think Simon doesn’t get the credit he deserves for what he’s done for Irish wrestling and that’s a shame, we wouldn’t have what we have today if not for him (even down to Low Blows, I learned so much working with IWW that I still use today).

For what it’s worth they still run pretty regularly and everyone I know there seems pretty happy with the setup, so it’s not all doom and gloom either.

leggo · 14-03-2018 12:42am

SquidLad wrote: »

If I'm Joe Cabray, I'm not sure I'd want the IWW library, to be brutally honest. Irish Whip had its moments but a lot of it was f'ing horrendously bad. Have a look at this match between The Blagger Boys and Team Sexy? The Sexy Lads?, forget what they were called. All the worst aspects of bad indie wrestling are on display here. Silly gimmicks, lads who're barely trained, ten people in the audience etc... Not exactly the thing you'd want to associate your "cool"; "edgy" wrestling product with.

You can pick horrendously bad stuff from any promotion that uses its own trainees or tries to blood and develop imports while they’re young, it’s not hard to do. Everyone sucks in some way when they start because the only way you can learn after a certain point is in the ring in front of people. They also found and developed Sheamus, Drew Galloway, Wade Barrett, Mad Man Manson, not to mention being the first training school for a lot of people doing really well today and using a ton of some of the biggest indie/WWE stars before they were famous.

SquidLad · 14-03-2018 1:09am

leggo wrote: »

You can pick horrendously bad stuff from any promotion that uses its own trainees or tries to blood and develop imports while they’re young, it’s not hard to do. Everyone sucks in some way when they start because the only way you can learn after a certain point is in the ring in front of people. They also found and developed Sheamus, Drew Galloway, Wade Barrett, Mad Man Manson, not to mention being the first training school for a lot of people doing really well today and using a ton of some of the biggest indie/WWE stars before they were famous.

Ara now. I know you have a special fondness for IWW but be honest, you'd be shocked if you saw a match that bad in Progress or Rev Pro or OTT today.

SquidLad · 14-03-2018 1:32am

Also, and I'm not trying to be mean, but if you actually consider the amount of ex IWW talent that "made it". The number is exactly one. And that would be Sheamus. I don't consider the act of merely booking guys allows you bragging rights once they get signed. Not if you didn't develop them yourself. Drew Galloway came out of FWA and Barrett out of NWA: Hammerlock. And they were both wrestling for years for Brian Dixon and British Championship Wrestling before coming to Ireland. They really can't be claimed as "IWW guys". In fact, when you think about it, if you list European promotions by how many of their wrestlers went to WWE or made it big elsewhere, IWW would be on the lower end. Even NWA Ireland had a more successful roster.

leggo · 14-03-2018 8:29am

If you consider Pete Dunne to be an OTT guy (and consider that he does himself), then you have to consider Drew and Wade IWW guys too. Got their first bit of proper exposure there, got spotted for WWE there. Drew was like 19 and in University when he started with IWW, so it's false to say he was wrestling years because he wasn't even alive years before getting booked! They got their bookings with Dixon through Sheamus, who got told by John Laurinaitis to work there after a tryout to get up to WWE standard. Don't take my word for it, though, what do they talk about when they're on the likes of Ride Along, Table for 3 and podcasts? IWW!

Then there was Pierre Marceau too who was signed for NXT and Impact, he moved to Ireland from France to train. Then you consider that Joe Cabray started training there too, he was my second trainer, although he did a lot of his best work after he left. Do you say Mad Man Manson didn't make it becoming one of the biggest names in British Wrestling, respected by pretty much everyone there and still remembered to this day years after he retired?

Then if you consider the likes of Martina etc today as having 'made it' (and I would), you also have to count the likes of Ballymun Bruiser and others who enjoyed similar success that now gets forgotten about because it's not in your face. Bruiser had a TV3 documentary made about his life and there was a period I couldn't switch on the TV without being like "Why is that gob****e on the television?!!" :pac:

I'm not being biased here. I've no real emotional affinity to the company anymore and I personally get zero credit for anything like that because booking or training talent was never my job. And just before that post I made a really honest assessment of their shortcomings. It's just become cool to stick the boot into them because they're not big today, but you could probably go over matches with wrestlers considered cool today starting out and nitpick just as much. You'd just be considered a dick for doing so because it kinda is a dick move to run down something from someone just starting out (although I know you probably weren't trying to be, again it's just cool to run them down now).

You could say also the same about Fight Factory's success in churning out stars with Balor, Becky, Devlin, Katey Harvey, Sean Guinness etc btw.

SquidLad · 14-03-2018 2:16pm

leggo wrote: »

If you consider Pete Dunne to be an OTT guy (and consider that he does himself), then you have to consider Drew and Wade IWW guys too. Got their first bit of proper exposure there, got spotted for WWE there. Drew was like 19 and in University when he started with IWW, so it's false to say he was wrestling years because he wasn't even alive years before getting booked! They got their bookings with Dixon through Sheamus, who got told by John Laurinaitis to work there after a tryout to get up to WWE standard. Don't take my word for it, though, what do they talk about when they're on the likes of Ride Along, Table for 3 and podcasts? IWW!

Then there was Pierre Marceau too who was signed for NXT and Impact, he moved to Ireland from France to train. Then you consider that Joe Cabray started training there too, he was my second trainer, although he did a lot of his best work after he left. Do you say Mad Man Manson didn't make it becoming one of the biggest names in British Wrestling, respected by pretty much everyone there and still remembered to this day years after he retired?

Then if you consider the likes of Martina etc today as having 'made it' (and I would), you also have to count the likes of Ballymun Bruiser and others who enjoyed similar success that now gets forgotten about because it's not in your face. Bruiser had a TV3 documentary made about his life and there was a period I couldn't switch on the TV without being like "Why is that gob****e on the television?!!" :pac:

I'm not being biased here. I've no real emotional affinity to the company anymore and I personally get zero credit for anything like that because booking or training talent was never my job. And just before that post I made a really honest assessment of their shortcomings. It's just become cool to stick the boot into them because they're not big today, but you could probably go over matches with wrestlers considered cool today starting out and nitpick just as much. You'd just be considered a dick for doing so because it kinda is a dick move to run down something from someone just starting out (although I know you probably weren't trying to be, again it's just cool to run them down now).

You could say also the same about Fight Factory's success in churning out stars with Balor, Becky, Devlin, Katey Harvey, Sean Guinness etc btw.

Well can we just agree that I'm not running down IWW to look "cool"? And that I'm doing so because I genuinely believe the praise that promotion gets is overstated?

My definition of having "made it" in wrestling is if you can make a career out of it. Pierre Marceau didn't make it. He was a failed NXT guy who became a failed TNA guy. Bruiser never even wrestled outside of Ireland. Manson (who I love, don't get me wrong) was a part time indy guy.

Galloway, unless I'm mistaken, debuted when he was 15 and had spent several years wrestling for British Championship Wrestling. But you are right, IWW does deserve more credit than I give them for their hand in developing Barrett and Galloway since they got their first TV exposure through Whiplash TV.

IWW was what it was. A regional indy mostly comprised mostly of local trainees. Some of whom were talented but virtually none of them made a career out of wrestling.

brianblaze · 14-03-2018 2:25pm

SquidLad wrote: »

Well can we just agree that I'm not running down IWW to look "cool"? And that I'm doing so because I genuinely believe the praise that promotion gets is overstated?

My definition of having "made it" in wrestling is if you can make a career out of it. Pierre Marceau didn't make it. He was a failed NXT guy who became a failed TNA guy. Bruiser never even wrestled outside of Ireland. Manson (who I love, don't get me wrong) was a part time indy guy.

Galloway, unless I'm mistaken, debuted when he was 15 and had spent several years wrestling for British Championship Wrestling. But you are right, IWW does deserve more credit than I give them for their hand in developing Barrett and Galloway since they got their first TV exposure through Whiplash TV.

IWW was what it was. A regional indy mostly comprised mostly of local trainees. Some of whom were talented but virtually none of them made a career out of wrestling.

NWA and moreso Fergal deserve a lot more credit for growing talent in Ireland. (Devlin, Morrow, Devitt and Becky) I loved IWW, but Seamus started his training in the States, and Barrett and Galloway in the UK. IWW hitched to that clown Norton at the start which drove a lot of trainees away, and then Burridge came along who by all accounts was sound but no idea what he was like to train with.

IWW, maybe thanks to TWC had a lot of exposure, blooded some very good lads and was probably the first 'medium sized' promotion in Ireland. It's apples and oranges comparing IWW and OTT, but comparing NWA to IWW is a fairer one. IWW ran bigger shows and chucked out more lads, but NWA was probably more succesful in who they did turn out.

SquidLad · 14-03-2018 2:38pm

brianblaze wrote: »

NWA and moreso Fergal deserve a lot more credit for growing talent in Ireland. (Devlin, Morrow, Devitt and Becky) I loved IWW, but Seamus started his training in the States, and Barrett and Galloway in the UK. IWW hitched to that clown Norton at the start which drove a lot of trainees away, and then Burridge came along who by all accounts was sound but no idea what he was like to train with.

IWW, maybe thanks to TWC had a lot of exposure, blooded some very good lads and was probably the first 'medium sized' promotion in Ireland. It's apples and oranges comparing IWW and OTT, but comparing NWA to IWW is a fairer one. IWW ran bigger shows and chucked out more lads, but NWA was probably more succesful in who they did turn out.

Yeah, exactly. This is basically what I said earlier. If you were comparing IWW and NWA solely on the basis of who had the more successful roster, NWA would win easily.

leggo · 14-03-2018 3:22pm

Yeah no sorry SquidLad, I did say that you weren’t being a dick and I don’t think you’re doing it to further a narrative or anything. But a lot of your facts are all over the place: Sheamus paid for a few months training in the States, got hurt early into it and felt ripped off because he couldn’t train and didn’t get a refund. He came back and pretty much gave up on wrestling until he met a guy who was starting his own promotion while working in a bar and that’s how IWW began (he confuses this narrative himself to be fair by telling this story differently depending on what point he wants to make, but that was his story back in the day and checks out with those around him). Bruiser wrestled outside of Ireland frequently. Manson was full time and did quite well for a few years. I dunno if you’re getting info off CageMatch or whatever but, while an interesting resource, that misses a bunch even with me personally has me down as wrestling a bunch in Australia and other random places and I’ve never even set foot in the place! So it’s more reference point than bible.

I wouldn’t compare, tbh, that’s a redundant exercise and minimises the achievements of each promotion, all of which have contributed in their own right. Like comparing OTT with IWW is ridiculous, OTT are miles ahead of what they ever were. It’s like comparing Pele to Messi, two different generations and because football has evolved most League 2 players today would probably best Pele in his prime. But Pele’s achievements for his time and the circumstances he dealt with are formidable and why he still gets brought up.

What I’d say is a more accurate (if less fun) reading is that OTT likely doesn’t happen if not for IWW/NWA/AWR etc. They both broke ground in their own ways that enabled what we have today. There was a time when you’d get laughed at if you mentioned wrestling to the likes of media or sponsors, I know because it was my job to get laughed at! Now, because those promotions made those 1000 calls to get 1 reply and helped massively by the success of guys like Balor, Becky, Sheamus etc, the likes of JOE.ie or Balls will cover the likes of OTT quite freely which helps it become this behemoth it is today. They also got to start the promotion with guys who’d been wrestling 10+ years, had a much better resource of knowledge to train lads with because the likes of Joe and Fergal are bringing stuff back from NXT, Japan etc to help lads improve at a massive rate. And so on.

The reality is we have a great situation here now and that is the result of various people from various promotions who worked their arse off when that was just a dream. Be it IWW/NWA/FFPW/AWR, all of it counts. So to casually slight or minimise those achievements for whatever reason is just false and displays a lack of understanding for how a situation like we have now comes to pass.

oneilla · 14-03-2018 5:30pm

All this old-school chat had me look up the 3rd IWW show in the basketball arena that I attended https://www.cagematch.net/?id=1&nr=3460&page=2. This was the one with Jake Roberts. It's just amazing how far wrestling in Ireland has come. Back then there weren't many women in the audience and no age restrictions so lots of kids there despite there being a more hardcore element. Iirc the first show had Zandig and Juatice Pain do a deathmatch with barbed wire and stuff.

Would love to see them early shows for the nostalgia but not sure if I'd wanna pay for them. A friend had some VHS tapes bouht from Templecom on Aston Quay and I don't remember the video quality being the best due to the limitations of early digital video technology.

Would agree with Leggo that you can't really compare the early shows from the 2000s with today's shows. FFPW show in Hangar in Dublin in December was as well produced as OTT shows and was pretty great.

leggo · 14-03-2018 5:34pm

oneilla wrote: »

Would agree with Leggo that you can't really compare the early shows from the 2000s with today's shows. FFPW show in Hangar in Dublin in December was as well produced as OTT shows and was pretty great.

Yes, great shout! Place looked the business and you could tell how hungry the talent was, plus it felt like something special and different, really underground vibe similar to early OTT shows. Also thought their last show Dive Hard was really strong. There’s a lot of great stuff going on there that shouldn’t be going under anyone's radar!

showpony1 · 14-03-2018 6:22pm

oneilla wrote: »

All this old-school chat had me look up the 3rd IWW show in the basketball arena that I attended https://www.cagematch.net/?id=1&nr=3460&page=2. This was the one with Jake Roberts. It's just amazing how far wrestling in Ireland has come. Back then there weren't many women in the audience and no age restrictions so lots of kids there despite there being a more hardcore element. Iirc the first show had Zandig and Juatice Pain do a deathmatch with barbed wire and stuff.

Would love to see them early shows for the nostalgia but not sure if I'd wanna pay for them. A friend had some VHS tapes bouht from Templecom on Aston Quay and I don't remember the video quality being the best due to the limitations of early digital video technology.

Would agree with Leggo that you can't really compare the early shows from the 2000s with today's shows. FFPW show in Hangar in Dublin in December was as well produced as OTT shows and was pretty great.

I remember as a kid thinking Johnny Storm vs Jody Fleisch was the best match i'd ever seen on that IWW Jake Roberts card!

I remember a load of irish backyard workers doing moves on each other in the crowd during the breaks, some teenager dropped a guy with a TKO right onto the wooden basketball floor!

B.A._Baracus · 14-03-2018 9:03pm

SquidLad wrote: »

If I'm Joe Cabray, I'm not sure I'd want the IWW library, to be brutally honest. Irish Whip had its moments but a lot of it was f'ing horrendously bad. Have a look at this match between The Blagger Boys and Team Sexy? The Sexy Lads?, forget what they were called. All the worst aspects of bad indie wrestling are on display here. Silly gimmicks, lads who're barely trained, ten people in the audience etc... Not exactly the thing you'd want to associate your "cool"; "edgy" wrestling product with.

To be fair there is a lot more than 10 people there. If you wanna get technical iww drew way more than nwa Ireland around that time too. That's when ever nwa Ireland bloody ran shows.

Look whiplash was what it was. But I do remember snide remarks being made on boards.ie and even ukff too (which has a lot of English indy guys posting on it)

My two cents was that there was a lot of jealously involved. These lads are ****, iww is **** yadda yadda. Most of these comments were coming from people who would have gladly took an iww booking to appear on the wrestling channel via whiplash. Of course so many where hiding behind a username rather than saying they were xyz wrestler.

Same thing would happen today if say ccpw got onto, I dunno, tv3... Youd have lads from other promotions calling it ****. Why? Because they're not on it.

SquidLad · 15-03-2018 12:52am

B.A._Baracus wrote: »

To be fair there is a lot more than 10 people there. If you wanna get technical iww drew way more than nwa Ireland around that time too. That's when ever nwa Ireland bloody ran shows.

Look whiplash was what it was. But I do remember snide remarks being made on boards.ie and even ukff too (which has a lot of English indy guys posting on it)

My two cents was that there was a lot of jealously involved. These lads are ****, iww is **** yadda yadda. Most of these comments were coming from people who would have gladly took an iww booking to appear on the wrestling channel via whiplash. Of course so many where hiding behind a username rather than saying they were xyz wrestler.

Same thing would happen today if say ccpw got onto, I dunno, tv3... Youd have lads from other promotions calling it ****. Why? Because they're not on it.

Okay, well I am being hyperbolic. The actual number, if I remember correctly was something like 40 for this show. Which is still abysmal. But that doesn't matter. My whole point was simply that IWW wasn't as great as you remember and just about every Irish indy going today eclipses it in quality. And come on like, you can't watch that episode of Whiplash and tell me that it isn't a horrendous piece of television. And I'm not cherry picking bad stuff here (okay, well I am, a little bit). But it's not like that Blagger Boys VS Team Sexy match was an anomaly. IWW was basically all the wrestling I watched back in 05/06 and I remember cards (especially the smaller ones without any major imports) were regularly filled with embarrassingly bad stuff like this.

leggo · 15-03-2018 1:09am

SquidLad wrote: »

IWW was basically all the wrestling I watched back in 05/06 and I remember cards (especially the smaller ones without any major imports) were regularly filled with embarrassingly bad stuff like this.

Like you're allowed dislike whatever you want, that's your opinion, but it does raise the obvious question...why did you continue to go to shows you thought were really bad?!

I think stuff like that, along with you going back on your point in every post ("I'm not just picking the bad stuff...okay that's exactly what I'm doing...") is why you're getting grilled a bit.

I mean, I don't disagree with some of what you're saying. Whiplash series 1 was awful for the most part but had some promising talents and good ideas (class refereeing though to be fair :cool::pac:). I don't think anyone would argue much there. They weren't ready for TV by any means. But would anyone have said no to that offer? It raised their profile exponentially as a company and started attracting talent like Drew and Stu who would help turn the company into something respectable, as well as then being able to attract top class indie talent like Pac/Neville who were looking for exposure. Series 2 was a lot better, aside from a couple tapings that drew poorly (and there's a story behind that in itself), and that wouldn't have happened without Series 1.

So what's the story here? Wrestlers that aren't ready aren't good, whereas wrestlers with more experience are better. It's hardly groundbreaking news like and it's kinda dickish to mock guys who were being thrown out there, taking opportunities like anyone else would for little to no pay, before they were ready. And OTT, having had the benefit of those wrestlers now honing their trade over years and the scene learning from past trial and error, are better. That's how everything works. You learn and you improve. I don't think anyone is saying IWW were better, but they were really important in the landscape of wrestling over here and deserve credit as such instead of people saying, "LOL look that lad who had a few months training is worse than lads who have years behind them."

SquidLad · 15-03-2018 1:16am

leggo wrote: »

Like you're allowed dislike whatever you want, that's your opinion, but it does raise the obvious question...why did you continue to go to shows you thought were really bad?!"

Well, I was 13. And your tastes change over time. Like I was definitely able to identify some of the really bad stuff but I was just happy to have any live wrestling to go to. It's why I'm trying to emphasize the "not as good as you remember" point. IWW, like the Attitude Era was cool at the time but has aged horribly and I don't necessarily think it would make for the best footage on OTT on demand.

SquidLad · 15-03-2018 1:26am

leggo wrote: »

So what's the story here? Wrestlers that aren't ready aren't good, whereas wrestlers with more experience are better. It's hardly groundbreaking news like and it's kinda dickish to mock guys who were being thrown out there, taking opportunities like anyone else would for little to no pay, before they were ready. And OTT, having had the benefit of those wrestlers now honing their trade over years and the scene learning from past trial and error, are better. That's how everything works. You learn and you improve. I don't think anyone is saying IWW were better, but they were really important in the landscape of wrestling over here and deserve credit as such instead of people saying, "LOL look that lad who had a few months training is worse than lads who have years behind them."

I don't consider it "dickish". And I'm not "mocking" anyone. I guess I just don't subscribe to this "go easy on them" mentality. You wouldn't do it for any other promotion so why IWW? I am (or was) a fan who was being presented with a largely bad product. Like am I supposed to hold them to a lower standard and say "yeah that match was ****e but the wrestlers were barely trained so c'est la vie". That's a terrible attitude to have and would probably be bad for the industry as a whole.

And I'm not going back on my point. My stance is and has always been that IWW could fairly f'ing bad a lot of the time. Though that Blagger Boys VS Team Sexy match I will admit is particularly awful so I felt it was only fair to point that out.

B.A._Baracus · 15-03-2018 2:26am

SquidLad wrote: »

I don't consider it "dickish". And I'm not "mocking" anyone. I guess I just don't subscribe to this "go easy on them" mentality. You wouldn't do it for any other promotion so why IWW? I am (or was) a fan who was being presented with a largely bad product. Like am I supposed to hold them to a lower standard and say "yeah that match was ****e but the wrestlers were barely trained so c'est la vie". That's a terrible attitude to have and would probably be bad for the industry as a whole.

And I'm not going back on my point. My stance is and has always been that IWW could fairly f'ing bad a lot of the time. Though that Blagger Boys VS Team Sexy match I will admit is particularly awful so I felt it was only fair to point that out.

It was what is was.
The IWW wrestlers were only wrestling since Summer 2004 and Whiplash started in 2005. NWA-Ireland or even Celtic Pro Wrestling would not have done any better at the time.

Let's fast forward to now and FreeSports released it's top 10 shows and 5* Wrestling does not appear in it. The last listing, university rugby, pulls in 16,000 viewers per week. So who knows how many people are watching 5*. Despite the fact it has guys like RVD, Mysterio and other names on it. It too is what it is (a wrestling show on a satellite channel) and a lot of people are calling that sh*t.

Irish Promotions Thread *Please read post 1* (*Mod Warning Post #3947)

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Irish Promotions Thread Please read post 1 (*Mod Warning Post #3947)