Would you wear an Easter Lily?

gallag · 19-02-2013 10:45pm

Happyman42 wrote: »

Yes, magic alright, saying as the half of Ireland swallowed her hollow words and disregarded the fact that her forces are still bombing and terrorising people into the acceptence of their 'gifts' around the world.

Sad. Serious question, what would it take to get you to move on? Are you not happy at the chance for our countries to build bridges? Was proud watching the queen bow in the garden of remembrance.

Iwasfrozen · 19-02-2013 10:47pm

Crooked Jack wrote: »

You keep repeating this as if it's some kind of great point you're making. It's not. If you made your own unofficial poppy, symbolising something else and sending the money elsewhere with a republican stamp on it then it wouldnt be a poppy would it. You'd just be some loon going round selling a badge promising to give the money to the defence forces.

What point are you trying to make here. it's nonsensical.

I don't intend to repeat it it just keeps coming up.

Republican: The poppy is a British symbol.
Me: No it's not. It's international.
Republican: It's British here because only the British sell them.
Me: Since anyone can sell them they aren't British, here or anywhere.
Republican: The poppy is a British symbol.
...
Ad infinitum.

Nodin · 19-02-2013 10:47pm

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

So you want to toss out the whole apple cart over a few bad ones. Doesn't work like that.
.

The whole enterprise of the cart was a rotten one. Why should I support veterans of imperial/colonial wars?

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

A. Yes it would.
B. No it wouldn't that would defeat the purpose. The poppy is not a British symbol. Part of it would be reclaiming this international symbol as our own.

This is a nice design. I like it.
http://www.bikers-stuffwholesale.com/catalog/IronCrossEmbeddedSkull.jpg

I won't wear it or anything like it, nor have tattoos like it, because its associated with the far right. The poppy in this part of the world is associated with the British army, and funding the veterans of its imperialist conflicts. As a result, I won't wear it (though if the funds were for whats described, I would donate the cash).

Sound of Silence · 19-02-2013 10:50pm

philologos wrote: »

I'm not very patriotic so no. I was born in Ireland it was a hood place to grow up in but the truth is if God willed it I could have been born in Botswana.

You do wear the Poppy, though.

I recall it being something very dear to your heart.

Lome · 19-02-2013 10:52pm

gallag wrote: »

Sad. Serious question, what would it take to get you to move on? Are you not happy at the chance for our countries to build bridges? Was proud watching the queen bow in the garden of remembrance.

F*Ck her and everything she stands for. They have done far far far too much to be forgiven especially when all she has done is a PR stunt in the Garden of Remembrance and muttered a few words in Irish... you have fools like Mary Mcaleese in awe of the whole thing... it makes me cringe when i hear here say "wow" about 3 times... its an act, open your eyes

Crooked Jack · 19-02-2013 10:53pm

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

The poppy is not a British symbol. Part of it would be reclaiming this international symbol as our own.

http://www.poppyscotland.org.uk/education/public/media/PS44_large.jpg

This is the National American Legion poppy. As you can plainly see it's a different badge, from a different organisation representing something completely different to the british one.
The one we see here, indeed the only one that you can get here, is indeed a British symbol, property of the Royal british Legion and representative of the british army (not civilians killed in war) and all their actions from 1914 onwards with the proceeds going to british soldiers.

Now will you quit this rubbish that the poppy is some sort of non-partisan symbol that we can all unite behind

LordSutch · 19-02-2013 10:54pm

Lome wrote: »

are you irish?

Yeah, I know, weird isnt it!

An Irish person who didn't support the Provisional IRA

Sound of Silence · 19-02-2013 10:55pm

donvito99 wrote: »

Crooked Jack
Location: South Armagh

I see...

Don't let your myopic World-View get in the way of a good argument!

Nodin · 19-02-2013 10:56pm

LordSutch wrote: »

Yeah, I know, weird isnt it!

An Irish person who didn't support the Provisional IRA

Well no. Its the whole southern unionist thing people get hung up over.

Lome · 19-02-2013 10:58pm

LordSutch wrote: »

Yeah, I know, weird isnt it!

An Irish person who didn't support the Provisional IRA

no an irish person who quiet obviously is ashamed of where he is from... i suppose you think the GAA is a backwards organisation... you just seem like u are anti - Irish... bit of a be!! end to be fair

Iwasfrozen · 19-02-2013 10:58pm

Nodin wrote: »

The whole enterprise of the cart was a rotten one. Why should I support veterans of imperial/colonial wars?

You shouldn't but you should support the people who fought and died to save you from what that iron cross represents.

Nodin wrote: »

This is a nice design. I like it.
http://www.bikers-stuffwholesale.com/catalog/IronCrossEmbeddedSkull.jpg

I won't wear it or anything like it, nor have tattoos like it, because its associated with the far right. The poppy in this part of the world is associated with the British army, and funding the veterans of its imperialist conflicts. As a result, I won't wear it (though if the funds were for whats described, I would donate the cash).

I don't nor do i see how you can compare the poppy to the iron cross.

LordSutch · 19-02-2013 11:01pm

Lome wrote: »

no an irish person who quiet obviously is ashamed of where he is from... i suppose you think the GAA is a backwards organisation... you just seem like u are anti - Irish... bit of a be!! end to be fair

Where are you getting this dross from? unless of course you've been prompted

Wattle · 19-02-2013 11:02pm

I woldn't wear an Easter Lily but I'd wear a nice Easter Bonnet :P

Iwasfrozen · 19-02-2013 11:02pm

Crooked Jack wrote: »

http://www.poppyscotland.org.uk/education/public/media/PS44_large.jpg

This is the National American Legion poppy. As you can plainly see it's a different badge, from a different organisation representing something completely different to the british one.
The one we see here, indeed the only one that you can get here, is indeed a British symbol, property of the Royal british Legion and representative of the british army (not civilians killed in war) and all their actions from 1914 onwards with the proceeds going to british soldiers.

Now will you quit this rubbish that the poppy is some sort of non-partisan symbol that we can all unite behind

Are you actually going to argue that this
http://www.beanpost79.com/images/MemorialDayPoppy.jpg

and this
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a3/Royal_British_Legion%27s_Paper_Poppy_-_white_background.jpg

Aren't the same thing? Because they're both poppies. Hell by that logic this
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/f/f0/Metal_Easter_Lily.jpg

and this http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5d/Easterlily.jpg/220px-Easterlily.jpg

aren't the same thing either.

Lome · 19-02-2013 11:02pm

LordSutch wrote: »

Where are you getting this dross from? unless of course you've been prompted

from who? with a name like yours its easy to see where you would prefer to be from... your Lord:rolleyes:

LordSutch · 19-02-2013 11:03pm

Nodin wrote: »

Well no. Its the whole southern unionist thing people get hung up over.

Listen here Nodders, I posted here in good faith re my positive change in attitude towards the wearing of the Easter Lily, and this is the thanks I get for it.

LordSutch · 19-02-2013 11:05pm

Lome wrote: »

from who? with a name like yours its easy to see where you would prefer to be from... your Lord

Do yourself a flavour Lome & Google screaming LordSutch :rolleyes:

Nodin · 19-02-2013 11:05pm

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

You shouldn't but you should support the people who fought and died to save you from what that iron cross represents. .

.....which won't be acheived by buying a poppy, for reasons stated earlier.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

I don't nor do i see how you can compare the poppy to the iron cross.

I suggest you've some reading to do.

You can start here,

Interrogation under torture was widespread. Many of the men were anally raped, using knives, broken bottles, rifle barrels, snakes and scorpions. A favourite technique was to hold a man upside down, his head in a bucket of water, while sand was rammed into his rectum with a stick. Women were gang-raped by the guards. People were mauled by dogs and electrocuted. The British devised a special tool which they used for first crushing and then ripping off testicles. They used pliers to mutilate women's breasts. They cut off inmates' ears and fingers and gouged out their eyes. They dragged people behind Land Rovers until their bodies disintegrated. Men were rolled up in barbed wire and kicked around the compound.
Elkins provides a wealth of evidence to show that the horrors of the camps were endorsed at the highest levels. The governor of Kenya, Sir Evelyn Baring, regularly intervened to prevent the perpetrators from being brought to justice. The colonial secretary, Alan Lennox-Boyd, repeatedly lied to the House of Commons. This is a vast, systematic crime for which there has been no reckoning.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/apr/23/british-empire-crimes-ignore-atrocities

Iwasfrozen · 19-02-2013 11:06pm

Lome wrote: »

from who? with a name like yours its easy to see where you would prefer to be from... your Lord:rolleyes:

Hey you leave his Lordship alone, nationality isn't defined by ones love of the GAA ya know.

Sound of Silence · 19-02-2013 11:06pm

Lome wrote: »

from who? with a name like yours its easy to see where you would prefer to be from... your Lord:rolleyes:

Lord Sutch was an eccentric UK Musician and Political Activist, I believe.

If you've ever seen him, you'd probably have a bit of a soft spot for him, too.

Nodin · 19-02-2013 11:07pm

LordSutch wrote: »

Listen here Nodders, I posted here in good faith re my positive change in attitude towards the wearing of the Easter Lily, and this is the thanks I get for it.

Jaysus, no need to get all cantankerous. You didn't see me lose the plot with your beret and shades remark.

Happyman42 · 19-02-2013 11:08pm

gallag wrote: »

Sad. Serious question, what would it take to get you to move on? Are you not happy at the chance for our countries to build bridges? Was proud watching the queen bow in the garden of remembrance.

Move on from what? Being anti bullying imperialism and state greed?
Let the countries build bridges, I have no problem with that, but lets not cod ourselves either.
'Would that we had done things differently', she said, while her forces where lining up to attack targets in 3 foreign countries.

LordSutch · 19-02-2013 11:12pm

Nodin wrote: »

Jaysus, no need to get all cantankerous. You didn't see me lose the plot with your beret and shades remark.

Well at least this is not in the politics Cafe

wolfpawnat · 19-02-2013 11:13pm

LordSutch wrote: »

Where are you getting this dross from? unless of course you've been prompted

I have to laugh, unionist belief's seems to equate to completely anti-Irish to some. Sure Lord Edward Carson was a fantastic hurler. No joke, he actually was!

LordSutch · 19-02-2013 11:14pm

Nodin wrote: »

Well no. Its the whole southern unionist thing people get hung up over.

There you go again.

Crooked Jack · 19-02-2013 11:17pm

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Are you actually going to argue that this
http://www.beanpost79.com/images/MemorialDayPoppy.jpg

and this
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a3/Royal_British_Legion%27s_Paper_Poppy_-_white_background.jpg

Aren't the same thing? Because they're both poppies. Hell by that logic this
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/f/f0/Metal_Easter_Lily.jpg

and this http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5d/Easterlily.jpg/220px-Easterlily.jpg

aren't the same thing either.

Are you for real? of course they bloody arent the same thing.
They are physically different, with different names, made by different organsiations to represent different things with the proceeds going to different causes.
I'm baffled as to how you're still arguing this. The level of willful delusion youre displaying is almost impressive

Crooked Jack · 19-02-2013 11:21pm

lockon... wrote: »

Heros don't wear balaclavas and boiler suits.

Absolutely. after all, heroism is almost entirely determined by what you're wearing.

Lome · 19-02-2013 11:21pm

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Are you actually going to argue that this
http://www.beanpost79.com/images/MemorialDayPoppy.jpg

and this
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a3/Royal_British_Legion%27s_Paper_Poppy_-_white_background.jpg

Aren't the same thing? Because they're both poppies. Hell by that logic this
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/f/f0/Metal_Easter_Lily.jpg

and this http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5d/Easterlily.jpg/220px-Easterlily.jpg

aren't the same thing either.

Out of 12 million sperm i cant believe you were the fastest... :mad:

Crooked Jack · 19-02-2013 11:22pm

Lome wrote: »

Out of 12 million sperm i cant believe you were the fastest... :mad:

actually the first sperms to get to the egg generally just hop off it and weaken the outer membrane for later sperm to get through.
A funny picture in YLYL taught me that

Iwasfrozen · 19-02-2013 11:24pm

Lome wrote: »

Out of 12 million sperm i cant believe you were the fastest... :mad:

I see biology isn't your strong point.

Happyman42 · 19-02-2013 11:24pm

Crooked Jack wrote: »

actually the first sperms to get to the egg generally just hop off it and weaken the outer membrane for later sperm to get through.
A funny picture in YLYL taught me that

But are they the same????

gallag · 19-02-2013 11:25pm

Crooked Jack wrote: »

Absolutely. after all, heroism is almost entirely determined by what you're wearing.

No cape, no hero.

Iwasfrozen · 19-02-2013 11:25pm

Crooked Jack wrote: »

Are you for real? of course they bloody arent the same thing.
They are physically different, with different names, made by different organsiations to represent different things with the proceeds going to different causes.
I'm baffled as to how you're still arguing this. The level of willful delusion youre displaying is almost impressive

Yes they are made by different organisations, and yes they are made in different countries. Which leads us to the conclusion that the poppy is an international multi denominational symbol. Which is what I have been arguing from the start.

Nodin · 19-02-2013 11:25pm

LordSutch wrote: »

There you go again.

...I only said it the once, cranky pants.

Iwasfrozen · 19-02-2013 11:26pm

Nodin wrote: »

.....which won't be acheived by buying a poppy, for reasons stated earlier.

I suggest you've some reading to do.

You can start here,

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/apr/23/british-empire-crimes-ignore-atrocities

That's disgusting.

Crooked Jack · 19-02-2013 11:42pm

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Yes they are made by different organisations, and yes they are made in different countries. Which leads us to the conclusion that the poppy is an international multi denominational symbol. Which is what I have been arguing from the start.

.............

They are different symbols. They are not the same symbol. They are not connected. The poppy itself is just a flower. It's as much synonymous with heroin as anything else.
The remembrance poppy that you see here is solely associated with the british army and all their post 1914 actions.

Ok look, anyone here can look over the links I have put up and clearly see the poppy for what it is. You go ahead thinking whatever you like, clearly no amount of evidence is going to change your mind

Nodin · 19-02-2013 11:44pm

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

That's disgusting.

One country, one conflict in the 50's. However earlier brutality over there was so bad it shocked churchill who was no saint when it came to shooting natives when it was deemed nessecary.

Also
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Saharan-Journey-Exterminate-Brutes-Desert/dp/1847082327/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1361313354&sr=8-1

http://www.amazon.co.uk/From-Ruins-Empire-Against-Remaking/dp/1846144787/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pdT1_S_nC?ie=UTF8&colid=Z2OJPEBGSCQZ&coliid=I1A88DPDFUYR2S

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Late-Victorian-Holocausts-Famines-Making/dp/1859843824/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pC_S_nC?ie=UTF8&colid=Z2OJPEBGSCQZ&coliid=I2IX7FTPYZCERN

http://www.bookdepository.co.uk/Britains-Empire-Richard-Gott/9781844677382?b=-3&t=-20#Fulldescription-20

Others who aren't well known as offenders are the Belgians, French and Portugese - the latter in particular have a terrible reputation. The Spanish in the new world, I think, are more publicised in recent years.

philologos · 20-02-2013 12:06am

Sound of Silence wrote: »

You do wear the Poppy, though.

I recall it being something very dear to your heart.

I don't wear it for any reason to do with patriotism, or for glorifying a specific army as I explained to you at length last November

It isn't even a British thing, the practice originated in the United States and it began as a result of a Canadian poem about World War 1 (John McCrae's In Flanders Fields).

Fratton Fred · 20-02-2013 12:11am

Nodin wrote: »

One country, one conflict in the 50's. However earlier brutality over there was so bad it shocked churchill who was no saint when it came to shooting natives when it was deemed nessecary.

Also
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Saharan-Journey-Exterminate-Brutes-Desert/dp/1847082327/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1361313354&sr=8-1

http://www.amazon.co.uk/From-Ruins-Empire-Against-Remaking/dp/1846144787/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pdT1_S_nC?ie=UTF8&colid=Z2OJPEBGSCQZ&coliid=I1A88DPDFUYR2S

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Late-Victorian-Holocausts-Famines-Making/dp/1859843824/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pC_S_nC?ie=UTF8&colid=Z2OJPEBGSCQZ&coliid=I2IX7FTPYZCERN

http://www.bookdepository.co.uk/Britains-Empire-Richard-Gott/9781844677382?b=-3&t=-20#Fulldescription-20

Others who aren't well known as offenders are the Belgians, French and Portugese - the latter in particular have a terrible reputation. The Spanish in the new world, I think, are more publicised in recent years.

and yet you quite happily wear the Lilly, despite it glorifying people who carried out their own atrocities.:rolleyes:

we've been here before Nodin. you do not have the right to critcise the poppy if you wear the Lilly.

Nodin · 20-02-2013 12:35am

Fratton Fred wrote: »

and yet you quite happily wear the Lilly, despite it glorifying people who carried out their own atrocities.:rolleyes:

we've been here before Nodin. you do not have the right to critcise the poppy if you wear the Lilly.

There's a fundamental difference between a struggle carried on for rights, freedom etc, and those carried out to repress a population or impose a regime.

LordSutch · 20-02-2013 12:37am

Nodin wrote: »

There's a fundamental difference between a struggle carried on for rights, freedom etc, and those carried out to repress a population or impose a regime.

There's also a fundamental difference between a struggle for rights & freedom, and a terrorist campaign as perpetrated by your mates in the PIRA.

EoghanIRL · 20-02-2013 12:41am

No , I'm wouldn't .

Nodin · 20-02-2013 12:44am

LordSutch wrote: »

There's also a fundamental difference between a struggle for rights & freedom, and a terrorist campaign as perpetrated by your mates in the PIRA.

...not really. An awful lot is romanticised by distance and/or time. Any violent conflict is a nasty business which inevitably will feature innocents being hurt and killed, abuses etc. Thus, the question must arise at the offset - is armed struggle justified? Given the reaction of the authorities to peaceful protest, it was felt that it was.

Happyman42 · 20-02-2013 12:52am

Nodin wrote: »

...not really. An awful lot is romanticised by distance and/or time. Any violent conflict is a nasty business which inevitably will feature innocents being hurt and killed, abuses etc. Thus, the question must arise at the offset - is armed struggle justified? Given the reaction of the authorities to peaceful protest, it was felt that it was.

Churchill understood what a terror campaign was, witness Dresden, he knew exactly what he was doing there.

Míshásta · 20-02-2013 12:59am

The poll questions are biased.

I have never worn an Easter Lily but I think we should remember our dead.

The Lily has always been associated with illegal organizations from way back.

It's a symbol of the various Sinn Féins that have been undermining our state since it was founded.

It's always sold by Chuckies of various shades.

It's been politicised for too long. Too late to rescue it now. Perhaps another symbol acceptable to a wider constituency would be an idea.

LordSutch · 20-02-2013 1:00am

Nodin wrote: »

is armed struggle justified?

The so called armed struggle (Terrorist Campaign) in Northern Ireland/The ROI & Britain was never justified, and neither was it ever justified in the name of the Irish people. The PIRA did more damage to the two economies of this island, with more damage to the image of this island abroad too (tourists & inward investment), they also poisoned the hearts & minds of so many people on this island for at least another generation. The PIRA also put back any chance of reconciliation between Unionists & Nationalists by decades due to their murderous & cowardly campaign of murder & destruction.

Anybody who acts as their cheerleader needs to take a reality check.

Crooked Jack · 20-02-2013 1:04am

Míshásta wrote: »

The poll questions are biased.

I have never worn an Easter Lily but I think we should remember our dead.

The Lily has always been associated with illegal organizations from way back.

It's a symbol of the various Sinn Féins that have been undermining our state since it was founded.

It's always sold by Chuckies of various shades.

It's been politicised for too long. Too late to rescue it now. Perhaps another symbol acceptable to a wider constituency would be an idea.

Its not a symbol of sinn fein. however, i think your undermining statement is funny given that sinn fein played a key role in founding the state

Happyman42 · 20-02-2013 1:05am

LordSutch wrote: »

The so called armed struggle (Terrorist Campaign) in Northern Ireland/The ROI & Britain was never justified, and neither was it ever justified in the name of the Irish people. The PIRA did more damage to the two economies of this island, with more damage to the image of this island abroad too (tourists & inward investment), they also poisoned the hearts & minds of so many people on this island for at least another generation. The PIRA also put back any chance of reconciliation between Unionists & Nationalists by decades due to their murderous & cowardly campaign of murder & destruction.

Anybody who acts as their cheerleader needs to take a reality check.

Thought you said Mrs Winsdor made it all better???;)

Falthyron · 20-02-2013 1:18am

Ireland's history/memory is still selective. We choose to acknowledge/accept the parts of history that suit our cause for recognition of independence; 1798, Grattan's Parliament, The Famine, Parnell's Home Rule Party, 1916, War of Independence, etc. However, we don't take time to recognise and be proud of other moments in history, or people of significant repute who were Irish and contributed to world history, Richard Kane comes to mind.

Nobody wants to hear about 500,000 people turning out in Dublin to welcome Queen Victoria after The Famine, or the fact that she personally donated more money to famine relief than the Catholic Church. Nobody wants to talk about all the Irish who fought in WW2 against the Nazis because they signed up with 'the enemy'. Nobody wants to question why the 1916 rebels were openly rejected by the Irish people when the rebellion occurred - it took executions for treason to cause a more favourable reaction to the Irish cause. Nobody wants to discuss the fact that more Irish people died from pillaging and raiding rival clans, and inter-clan conflicts within the Irish countryside than at the hands of British soldiers.

Our history begins in 1922, and the only records we choose to observe of time before that are records demonstrating Ireland's ultimate cause for independence and how we longed for it for 800 years. The truth is, our independence was always a minority's cause, and most people in Ireland were happy with the status quo.

If you really want to understand history, you need to see all sides, all arguments, and all the facts - not just the one.

Morag · 20-02-2013 1:18am

Oh look it's that time of the year again.

Yes I would, and yes I have and yes I do.
I won't let the provos/terrorists hijack it, won't hand it over by not wearing it,
they don't own it. I would love to seen it worn publicly like the poppy is.

Would you wear an Easter Lily?

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