Could the train once again be the King of the Dublin/Cork route?

BenShermin · 11-04-2013 10:03pm #1

I haven't found time to post here in a long time, but I feel such a thread deserves merit.

Last Monday evening I had to use the train between Killarney and Dublin as the intercity buses between these two areas leave a lot to be desired. I took a train that connected into the 2020 Cork to Dublin train at Mallow. As somebody who is now a complete convert to GoBÉ I was pleasantly surprised with how good the train has become on this route.

I was very sceptical of the new timetable on the Cork to Dublin route that was introduced in January. I left my Killarney to Cork train at Mallow on a freezing cold rainy night and expected a long wait, to my amazement the Dublin train arrived two minutes early. Within minutes I was sitting in my reserved seat in the lovely warmth of the MK4 train.

It wasn't long before I was able to sit back and enjoy my few bottles of beer (something I can't do on the bus). The journey has become a lot smoother and they seem to have cut down slightly on the annoying automatic announcements. The toilets were spotless en-route and the cheerful train host kept a frequent presence throughout the journey. I estimated that the whole train had less than 50 passengers on board. I noticed the train arrived four minutes early into Thurles and a minute early into Portlaoise.

The train arrived into Heuston at 2247, eight minutes ahead of it's advertised arrival of 2255. Within minutes I was off the train and onto the luas, the 145 bus was also awaiting passengers. I was standing on OConnell Street at 2305 left shocked with how fast and efficient the whole service was! I had time for a quick pint in town before my last bus home.

Sitting over my pint I thought about the train journey verses a bus journey.

If there was a 2000hrs Aircoach, that bus would have arrived in Bachelor's Walk at 2300, I would have also been in O'Connell Street for 2305. Leaving the Aircoach bus stop in Cork at 2000 would have had me in Kent Station in time for the 2020 train. So both methods of travel now take the exact same amount of time IMO. (Never mind that take your seat 20mins before departure crap that IÉ come out with, nobody abides by that anyway!).

I also thought about the fact that the train was early into Mallow, Thurles and Portlaoise and if it was timetabled properly, then the train could have been quicker than the bus. Quick maths suggests to me that non-stop trains from Dublin to Cork could probably do the journey in 2hrs15 without acceleration/deceleration required to stop en-route. Such a time would definitely beat the bus.

So my question is, could the train once again become the main performer on this route? If IÉ brought fares down to €30 return on this route, and introduced non-stop trains, could that offer real competition to the bus?

I'll be using GoBÉ next week on the Dublin to Cork route, the only reason being is because it's cheaper than the train. If the train was €30 return I'd be back to it in a heartbeat after my positive experience on Monday. Would anybody else on the forum be tempted, and want other improvements do you think could be made to the train service?

With the Aircoach and GoBÉ threads on this forum it's time for this thread to offer healthy competition and debate

.

n97 mini · 11-04-2013 10:46pm

Personally I find two things wrong with the train on this route, and in general. The price, and the times.

The price you've already touched on. In the UK you can pay £4 or £40 for the same journey, depending on how far in advance you buy. It should be the same here... I have no problem with the £40 ticket, as long as there is the opportunity for early birds to get the £4 ticket.

Timing is problem on the whole network, imho. The last train leaving the 2nd biggest city in RoI for the biggest city in RoI should not be at 2020. Instead it deserves a time like 0220. The same with the last train from Belfast, the last train to Maynooth (on Sundays in particular).... and so on. Timing on IE strikes me as being dictated by the Catholic church: they need to get punters home in time for a decade of the rosary followed by bed, as that's what's best for them.

bk · 11-04-2013 10:55pm

Well I think all of us here have always said that the train would be much more competitive if it was faster and cheaper.

I've always said that in order to be competitive, the train has to be able to do Cork to Dublin in 2 hours (thus 2hours 20 to O'Connell St) and max €40 return for a walk up ticket, €30 even better.

And non of this book 7 days in advance bs + €3 in online booking and cc fees. It needs to be just as flexible as the bus.

n97 mini also touches on a very important point of no late night trains.

So yes, it is possible for the train to be the best, but in the end it isn't currently and as you mentioned you will be back on GoBE next week because it is significantly cheaper and good enough.

BenShermin · 11-04-2013 11:00pm

You'd be very lucky these days to get £4 fares on UK intercity. £12 is the cheapest these days on the likes of London to Manchester or York for example. I won't argue though, the intercity service across the pond is tenfold better than IÉ.

I've always argued there'd be business for a 90N service from town to Heuston connecting with late evening services to the country. Even in the UK though I can only think of London to Oxford and London to Brighton services operating after midnight.

The early morning intercity buses to Dublin Airport beat the ****e out of the train at the moment and the meandering 747 bus from Heuston to the airport doesn't help matters either!

the groutch · 11-04-2013 11:09pm

I think the crux of it is that comfort isnt the be all and end all.
if people are paying the train's premium over the bus they want it to be faster, something which isn't the case on many routes, if any (especially with Heuston's distance from the City Centre.

n97 mini · 11-04-2013 11:23pm

BenShermin wrote: »

Even in the UK though I can only think of London to Oxford and London to Brighton services operating after midnight.

While we're broadly in agreement, I used get the train from Reading to Slough regularly, and it was never before midnight.

But back at home with IE, having the last intercity trains so early is madness. In many cases it's not possible to do a day's work in one city and get the train home afterwards, so it's no wonder so many IE customers are on free travel passes.

thisisadamh · 11-04-2013 11:40pm

n97 mini wrote: »

While we're broadly in agreement, I used get the train from Reading to Slough regularly, and it was never before midnight.

But back at home with IE, having the last intercity trains so early is madness. In many cases it's not possible to do a day's work in one city and get the train home afterwards, so it's no wonder so many IE customers are on free travel passes.

After 9pm there are just not enough people to make the service worth it. Also a lot of maintenance work is done at night, when no trains are running. If trains run 24/7 no maintenance work would ever get done.

bk · 12-04-2013 8:35am

Well I don't mind so much that the trains don't run later, it is understandable that the running costs for so few costumers might not make it worthwhile.

However it is crazy that BE operated no late night services, in fact they even finished up earlier then the train! It was crazy that there was no public transport at all between our two largest cities at night.

Citylink/GoBus in Galway and now Aircoach to Cork have proven that there is sufficient demand for a late night service on a bus anyway.

The ironic thing is that even BE partially run an hourly late night service to Belfast, so they most have known there was a demand for it!

AngryLips · 12-04-2013 8:51am

Even BÉ struggled to maintain an after-hours service on Dublin-Belfast when they went 24-hour on the route. The service is now less than hourly after midnight, which it was when it was first introduced. Not really fair to compare Irish services with those of the UK when they're one of the most densely populated countries in Europe ...though it's true, the late services here could do with being later.

newmug · 12-04-2013 8:59am

The train to Cork ALWAYS trumped the bus! Who the fluck wants to be stuck with your knees wedged against the seat in front of you and some smelly obese teenager beside you for 2 hours? The extra few bob is definately worth the comfort!

Judgement Day · 12-04-2013 9:09am

newmug wrote: »

The train to Cork ALWAYS trumped the bus! Who the fluck wants to be stuck with your knees wedged against the seat in front of you and some smelly obese teenager beside you for 2 hours? The extra few bob is definately worth the comfort!

bk likes the camaraderie.

rainbowdash · 12-04-2013 9:51am

A few things stick out from the OP.

50 people = train is too expensive.

2 or 3 minutes ahead of time to most stations and 8 into Heuston = Too much padding.

Clean toilet = progress

Losty Dublin · 12-04-2013 10:05am

Judgement Day wrote: »

bk likes the camaraderie.

And the smell of the chemical rinse in the jacks

LXFlyer · 12-04-2013 10:18am

rainbowdash wrote: »

A few things stick out from the OP.

50 people = train is too expensive.

2 or 3 minutes ahead of time to most stations and 8 into Heuston = Too much padding.

Clean toilet = progress

There may have only been 50 people on that train - it's at a seriously off peak time in the wrong direction (2020 ex-Cork).

How many were on the train that it operated beforehand - the 1700 from Dublin?

There are always going to have to be some journeys that carry less people so as to get the sets back in position for the next day.

foggy_lad · 12-04-2013 10:24am

newmug wrote: »

The train to Cork ALWAYS trumped the bus! Who the fluck wants to be stuck with your knees wedged against the seat in front of you and some smelly obese teenager beside you for 2 hours? The extra few bob is definately worth the comfort!

Ah don't be forgetting the gangs of louts who use the trains for extra drinking time on the way to/from stag/hen nights around the country, there is nothing like getting stuck with these wasters on a busy train!

rainbowdash wrote: »

A few things stick out from the OP.

50 people = train is too expensive. more than one travelling together = Train too expensive

2 or 3 minutes ahead of time to most stations and 8 into Heuston = Too much padding.trains are usually quite late into intermediate stations and only make up time at the last minute which is seat of the pants operating!

Clean toilet = progressToilets are only properly cleaned and emptied at Connolly/Heuston so are dirty/out of order on return trips on all lines

corktina · 12-04-2013 10:39am

train could be vamped up to beat the bus but will never beat the car, particulalrly when more than one person is travelling

rainbowdash · 12-04-2013 11:16am

lxflyer wrote: »

There may have only been 50 people on that train - it's at a seriously off peak time in the wrong direction (2020 ex-Cork).

How many were on the train that it operated beforehand - the 1700 from Dublin?

There are always going to have to be some journeys that carry less people so as to get the sets back in position for the next day.

The point I was making is the fare should be reduced on off peak services to get the punters in.

Even take an idea from Ryanair and try and generate some secondary income once you have bums on seats.

Solair · 12-04-2013 11:23am

They could definitely generate some secondary income by opening a proper café on board.

There's absolutely no reason why an Insomnia or Costa type operation couldn't be churning out the cappuccinos on those trains. The days of a soggy sandwich and an instant coffee are long gone.

There would be absolutely no problems whatever connecting up a cappuccino machine in a MK4. It has loads of electrical power.

It could even deliver 3-phase to the galley if they wanted to.

bk · 12-04-2013 12:17pm

rainbowdash wrote: »

The point I was making is the fare should be reduced on off peak services to get the punters in.

Even take an idea from Ryanair and try and generate some secondary income once you have bums on seats.

They tried the Ryanair previously with their €10 fares and it didn't really work.

Irish people just aren't really into booking online.

Plus the intercity market is very different to the airline market. All airlines make you pre-book, so you have no choice. But intercity a person can choose to just jump in their car or just walk up to a bus and pay a cheap fare anyway. The buses are cheap and flexible and now they are also relatively fast and comfortable. This is the reality IR have to compete with now.

That is why I say reduces journey times, drop prices and make all tickets walk up.

Putting Costa Coffee on the train, is a good idea if it makes IR more money then it costs, but on it's own it won't really gain them many customers.

It wasn't long before I was able to sit back and enjoy my few bottles of beer (something I can't do on the bus).

Why not? No reason why you can't take a few bottle of beers on the bus with you too. The GoBE buses have a fold down table, with a drink holder.

Rocky Bay · 12-04-2013 12:20pm

What about a "Quiet Car" ? No talking, no mobiles, just the noise of clicking keyboards.

bk · 12-04-2013 12:38pm

Rocky Bay wrote: »

What about a "Quiet Car" ? No talking, no mobiles, just the noise of clicking keyboards.

There already is.

Though to be honest if you want quietness and the ability to sleep then the bus is definitely much better IMO.

BenShermin · 12-04-2013 1:42pm

bk wrote: »

Why not? No reason why you can't take a few bottle of beers on the bus with you too. The GoBE buses have a fold down table, with a drink holder.

It's just not the same, maybe I'm spouting nonsense but I feel there's an antisocial element to it even though I wouldn't be rowdy. The person sitting beside me for three hours might not want to be stuck beside somebody drinking for three hours for whatever reason. On a train they can just move carriage if they don't want to be beside someone enjoying a drink.

Then there's the toilet, while it's great to have it on the bus, it's just not as comfortable to use as a big train toilet. I also don't want to be annoying the passengers sitting around the toilet area on the bus by going two or three times, the toilets are in the vestibules of trains so you don't feel like you're disturbing anyone.

I do however always bring a packed lunch on the bus for myself with a nice cup of coffee from somewhere.

bk · 12-04-2013 1:51pm

Ben that is fair enough, you are entitled to your opinion, but I think it is a pretty strained point.

If a person doesn't want to sit next to you drinking, no reason why they can't get up and move elsewhere on the bus. Also really no reason why you can't use the toilet a few times on the bus.

I certainly do see below drinking on the bus, but I agree much less frequently then the train. However I think that has more to do with he free travel pass and some undesirables who frequent the train.

munchkin_utd · 12-04-2013 1:57pm

bk wrote: »

<snip>

Why not? No reason why you can't take a few bottle of beers on the bus with you too. The GoBE buses have a fold down table, with a drink holder.

if the GoBE busses operate under Bus Eireann by laws, that'd be one reason you cannot drink on a bus operated by them.

also on citylink, condition 40 is that you canot drink alcoholic drinks on board their busses
http://www.citylink.ie/index.php/routes-a-timetables/top-destinations/76

I heard of a lad getting kicked off a bus eireann express from Galway to Limerick for drinking so it does happen occasionally. That lad was unfortunate too that the driver kicked him off the instant he was found drinking which was in the middle of nowhere (but before the motorway was opened)

bk · 12-04-2013 2:10pm

GoBE don't operate under BE byelaws. Why would they, separate companies.

Judgement Day · 12-04-2013 3:45pm

corktina wrote: »

train could be vamped up to beat the bus but will never beat the car, particulalrly when more than one person is travelling

One area where the train will always beat the car is for safe, relaxing, stress-free travel. No idiot trying to cut in in front of you and force you off the road, no hassle getting stuck behind juggernauts etc.etc. Even on Bus Eireann you have to put up with this - especially if you sit at the front as I always try to do.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=po_I7tFEL-8

I've travelled thousands of miles by road over the years and am always pleased/pleasantly surprised to arrive safely. I've been in a high speed truck blow-out, a bus that ended up in a ditch, been run into the back of and have had a lot of near misses with idiots who shouldn't be on the roads. Bad an all as things are on the railway I have rarely felt my life in danger - just twice in Ireland - (Waterford/Ballinacourty) weedspray train and on the "Seabreezes Express" from Cork to Youghal; and once on the Isle of Man on a double-headed passenger special being banked between Douglas and Port Soderick where the banking engine kept falling back and then catching up with the train.

Losty Dublin · 12-04-2013 3:51pm

Solair wrote: »

They could definitely generate some secondary income by opening a proper café on board.

There's absolutely no reason why an Insomnia or Costa type operation couldn't be churning out the cappuccinos on those trains. The days of a soggy sandwich and an instant coffee are long gone.

There would be absolutely no problems whatever connecting up a cappuccino machine in a MK4. It has loads of electrical power.

It could even deliver 3-phase to the galley if they wanted to.

Funnily enough but the company who own Railgourmet, SSP, operate a load of brands and services. This includes Starbucks and Soho Coffee under franchise in Dublin Airport. I'm sure that they could rebrand and restock Railgourmet trollies and counters if they so wished.

Solair · 12-04-2013 5:09pm

The one BIG BIG oversight on the Cork Route for me is the lack of power sockets in the standard class coaches on the MK4 trains.

That was a really bad omission from the design spec and they really do need to be retrofitted.

Rocky Bay · 12-04-2013 5:18pm

Forgot to add...sell only the same amount of tickets as seats. I noticed a long time ago that vestibles, passageways, corridors, aisles were severly overcrowded at times due to more tickets being sold then seats available. Can't say that the situation is true today but if it is , it is a disaster waiting to happen. Safety is critical on the railways and while it is sometime since I took a long railway journey, a Dublin/Cork train I was on in late 1989 still reminds me how dangerous overselling tickets can be.

Thephantomsmask · 12-04-2013 6:02pm

Solair - there's 2 sockets behind seat 6 in those carriages. They should be at every seat like you said though.

bk · 12-04-2013 6:32pm

Judgement Day wrote: »

One area where the train will always beat the car is for safe, relaxing, stress-free travel. No idiot trying to cut in in front of you and force you off the road, no hassle getting stuck behind juggernauts etc.etc. Even on Bus Eireann you have to put up with this - especially if you sit at the front as I always try to do.

.....

I've travelled thousands of miles by road over the years and am always pleased/pleasantly surprised to arrive safely.

JD that has to be some of the biggest fear mongering bs I've ever heard!!

Seriously, this is what rail fans are trying to push now.

The motorways are superb, built to a very high speak, you certainly won't be stuck behind any juggernaut on any motorway in Ireland. This also have an excellent safety record, playing a major part in the big reduction in road deaths over the last 5 years.

And it isn't as if rail bridges just collapse or anything like that now is it!!!

Rocky Bay wrote: »

Forgot to add...sell only the same amount of tickets as seats. I noticed a long time ago that vestibles, passageways, corridors, aisles were severly overcrowded at times due to more tickets being sold then seats available. Can't say that the situation is true today but if it is , it is a disaster waiting to happen. Safety is critical on the railways and while it is sometime since I took a long railway journey, a Dublin/Cork train I was on in late 1989 still reminds me how dangerous overselling tickets can be.

Doesn't really happy on the main intercity routes any more. Since the increase in capacity with clock face services and the drop in passenger numbers due to the motorways, recession and bus competition, they just aren't that full any more.

Richard Logue · 12-04-2013 8:00pm

bk wrote: »

JD that has to be some of the biggest fear mongering bs I've ever heard!!

Seriously, this is what rail fans are trying to push now.

The motorways are superb, built to a very high speak, you certainly won't be stuck behind any juggernaut on any motorway in Ireland.

Not my experience on the M4 to Kinnegad last week. Two trucks in front of me overtaking each other for about 10km it seemed. Not to mention the elderly drivers crawling along at 80 clicks in the overtaking lane!

This also have an excellent safety record, playing a major part in the big reduction in road deaths over the last 5 years.

And it isn't as if rail bridges just collapse or anything like that now is it!!!

You are comparing a mostly brand new motorway network with a 150 year old viaduct which when it collapsed did not fortunately cause any injuries, let alone fatalities.

And whilst road deaths are mercifully on the decrease in Ireland, thanks mostly to the drink driving laws and speed limit enforcement, we haven't had any rail fatalities since 1991 according to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_railway_accidents

Solair · 12-04-2013 8:01pm

Thephantomsmask wrote: »

Solair - there's 2 sockets behind seat 6 in those carriages. They should be at every seat like you said though.

Yeah, I know there are two there, but there's also no table and last time I booked them I was asked to move by an old person who got on and needed the accessible seats.

It's a bit of a joke that you have to basically book disabled seating to get access to a socket on the wall that's clearly intended for the cleaners rather than for passenger laptops.

It certainly doesn't make the service business/student/laptop user friendly. The 22000s are great with all their fancy laptop plugging in sockets!

Richard Logue · 12-04-2013 8:04pm

I actually prefer the 22000s to the Mk IVs. The Mk IVs could really do with a refurbishment and those all important power sockets.

Solair · 12-04-2013 8:09pm

Richard Logue wrote: »

I actually prefer the 22000s to the Mk IVs. The Mk IVs could really do with a refurbishment and those all important power sockets.

Yeah, I agree, they need them retrofitted and probably need a bit of a sprucing up at this stage. Some of them are looking a bit 'tatty' - worn upholstery etc.

Since there's so many 22000s in circulation, they should be able to take the MK4's out for a tidy up.

Judgement Day wrote: »

One area where the train will always beat the car is for safe, relaxing, stress-free travel. No idiot trying to cut in in front of you and force you off the road, no hassle getting stuck behind juggernauts etc.etc. Even on Bus Eireann you have to put up with this - especially if you sit at the front as I always try to do.

The roads have improved rather drastically since that ad was made in 1976! They were pretty terrible in the 1970s from what I've read / heard (I wasn't around in those days)

I have to say, my driving experience in Ireland has been the total opposite to what you're describing. It's in the top 5 safest countries in Europe to drive these days and statistically far safer than the US, Canada and Australia.

Rail's safer if you're a really bad driver / want to go asleep etc. but, Ireland's roads aren't exactly terrifying!

Richard Logue · 12-04-2013 8:50pm

I was around in the seventies and remember that ad well and the poor roads we had then. I particularly liked the shot of the Hillman Avenger crossing the railway bridge as it was very 70s!

Many of our main roads (known then as T roads) were pretty narrow in places and it used to take us three hours to travel from Leixlip to Cashel. The Naas Dual Carriageway was in place as far as the outskirts of Naas but from Naas onwards the road was a crawl until outside Portlaoise where it widened a bit.

More often than not we'd get the train from Heuston to Thurles and would be whisked down to Thurles for a 20 minute hair raising car ride to Cashel via Holycross. Those were the days alright.

Solair · 12-04-2013 9:06pm

It used to take 8 hours or so to get to Cork from Dublin?

Cool_CM · 12-04-2013 9:16pm

bk wrote: »

There already is.

Though to be honest if you want quietness and the ability to sleep then the bus is definitely much better IMO.

There is, it's usually the one furthest away from the dining carriage where you are directed to when you don't have a seat reservation. It is generally anything but quiet!

foggy_lad · 12-04-2013 9:49pm

Richard Logue wrote: »

Many of our main roads (known then as T roads) were pretty narrow in places and it used to take us three hours to travel from Leixlip to Cashel.

From memory the N roads were the national primary roads and included dual carraigeway sections, then there were R roads, then T roads were just trunk roads. Then there were L or link roads which often had grass along the centre.

Hilly Bill · 12-04-2013 10:01pm

How many people are commuting between Cork and Dublin daily? Is there enough to make it a non stop service even if the fare was €40 return?

Solair · 12-04-2013 10:05pm

Hilly Bill wrote: »

How many people are commuting between Cork and Dublin daily? Is there enough to make it a non stop service even if the fare was €40 return?

I would doubt that there are that many. Both cities are big hubs in their own rights.

Mostly it's business trips between the two. Regular commuting to Dublin from Cork wouldn't be very practical or economically viable in terms of either train fares or fuel costs.

kc56 · 13-04-2013 10:24am

foggy_lad wrote: »

From memory the N roads were the national primary roads and included dual carraigeway sections, then there were R roads, then T roads were just trunk roads. Then there were L or link roads which often had grass along the centre.

The designations T and L were superceeded by the N, R and L roads;

By the 1950s an established system of road classification and numbering with Trunk Roads and Link Roads had long been developed. The present system of road classification and numbering began in 1977 when twenty-five National Primary roads and thirty-three National Secondary roads were designated.
Regional roads were first formally designated in 1994, although Regional road route-numbers began appearing on signposts in the 1980s. The Roads Act 1993 also classified all public roads which are not national or regional roads as local roads. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roads_in_Ireland

corktina · 13-04-2013 10:43am

it doesnt follow though that the T roads became N and the L became R.

I beleive that the main road from Dublin to Cork for instance ran via Kilkenny and Clonmel for instance and the road from Thurles to Roscrea and points North was aa T road too where as the later N8 wasn't a T road. (IIRC)

Del2005 · 13-04-2013 11:16am

BenShermin wrote: »

I estimated that the whole train had less than 50 passengers on board.

How many of these where paying passengers v's DSP? Which is your point, make it cheaper and people will use it. If the majority of the people using it are DSP then it's a pointless service, this is for all train services as there's no point in the tax payer double subsidizing rail.

BenShermin wrote: »

I noticed the train arrived four minutes early into Thurles and a minute early into Portlaoise.

The train arrived into Heuston at 2247, eight minutes ahead of it's advertised arrival of 2255.

Did it depart from the stations on time or early? No point in arriving early if on time passengers miss it.

Richard Logue wrote: »

And whilst road deaths are mercifully on the decrease in Ireland, thanks mostly to the drink driving laws and speed limit enforcement, we haven't had any rail fatalities since 1991 according to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_railway_accidents

People are still driving like lunatics, just drive by a primary school at start or end times. The RSA can spout all the PR crap they like, the opening of hundreds of km of motorway and better car design is what's reduced are road fatalities.
The enforcement of speed limits, which is mostly done on good M, N and R roads, isn't stopping people driving at inappropriate speed for the road conditions which is the cause of crashes.

Jamie2k9 · 13-04-2013 2:53pm

There may have only been 50 people on that train - it's at a seriously off peak time in the wrong direction (2020 ex-Cork).

How many were on the train that it operated beforehand - the 1700 from Dublin?

There are always going to have to be some journeys that carry less people so as to get the sets back in position for the next day.

Can see you point but numbers have dropped since the 19.20 was interduced. It should not of resumed as there was no demand and the only reason may be because of stock movments however I suspect that they didn't want more trains in one direction. 19.20 started as a Mark 4 but then dropped to a 3 car ICR which has resulted in a lot of overcrowding on the 16.00 down, not sure if they have fixed the problem but it was like this a few weeks ago. I have taken both since the timetable started and at most 25-30 on both. The 19.20 was dropped because of low demand and when demand is the same if not lower its resumed.

LXFlyer · 13-04-2013 4:37pm

The reason the 1920 was reintroduced was to balance the set workings with the removal of the 0505, otherwise a "down" train would have to be cancelled.

There has to be a balanced number of trips.

In any public transport operation there will always be some workings that exist purely to get stock back to where they need to be the next morning, and these usually will be low usage.

Jamie2k9 · 13-04-2013 6:18pm

lxflyer wrote: »

The reason the 1920 was reintroduced was to balance the set workings with the removal of the 0505, otherwise a "down" train would have to be cancelled.

There has to be a balanced number of trips.

In any public transport operation there will always be some workings that exist purely to get stock back to where they need to be the next morning, and these usually will be low usage.

Yes but it has lead to very few savings apart from around 60 minutes for the few gatekeepers. My point is that they have replaced the 05.05 with another services that there is no dmenad for. No there does not have to be a balanced number of trips. Take saturdays when the 19.20 dosn't run. There are ways and means for the ICR set(s) to be taken back to Dublin on other services. Then there is the option of dropping a lightly used service from Dublin in the morning either. In the next timetable I expect the 19.20 will disappear if not a little before it.

LXFlyer · 13-04-2013 8:31pm

It doesn't run on Saturdays because the train operates an extra working on Sunday from Tralee to Dublin.

MGWR · 14-04-2013 8:41pm

BenShermin wrote: »

I haven't found time to post here in a long time, but I feel such a thread deserves merit.

Last Monday evening I had to use the train between Killarney and Dublin as the intercity buses between these two areas leave a lot to be desired. I took a train that connected into the 2020 Cork to Dublin train at Mallow. As somebody who is now a complete convert to GoBÉ I was pleasantly surprised with how good the train has become on this route.

I was very sceptical of the new timetable on the Cork to Dublin route that was introduced in January. I left my Killarney to Cork train at Mallow on a freezing cold rainy night and expected a long wait, to my amazement the Dublin train arrived two minutes early. Within minutes I was sitting in my reserved seat in the lovely warmth of the MK4 train.

It wasn't long before I was able to sit back and enjoy my few bottles of beer (something I can't do on the bus). The journey has become a lot smoother and they seem to have cut down slightly on the annoying automatic announcements. The toilets were spotless en-route and the cheerful train host kept a frequent presence throughout the journey. I estimated that the whole train had less than 50 passengers on board. I noticed the train arrived four minutes early into Thurles and a minute early into Portlaoise.

The train arrived into Heuston at 2247, eight minutes ahead of it's advertised arrival of 2255. Within minutes I was off the train and onto the luas, the 145 bus was also awaiting passengers. I was standing on OConnell Street at 2305 left shocked with how fast and efficient the whole service was! I had time for a quick pint in town before my last bus home.

Sitting over my pint I thought about the train journey verses a bus journey.

If there was a 2000hrs Aircoach, that bus would have arrived in Bachelor's Walk at 2300, I would have also been in O'Connell Street for 2305. Leaving the Aircoach bus stop in Cork at 2000 would have had me in Kent Station in time for the 2020 train. So both methods of travel now take the exact same amount of time IMO. (Never mind that take your seat 20mins before departure crap that IÉ come out with, nobody abides by that anyway!).

I also thought about the fact that the train was early into Mallow, Thurles and Portlaoise and if it was timetabled properly, then the train could have been quicker than the bus. Quick maths suggests to me that non-stop trains from Dublin to Cork could probably do the journey in 2hrs15 without acceleration/deceleration required to stop en-route. Such a time would definitely beat the bus.

So my question is, could the train once again become the main performer on this route? If IÉ brought fares down to €30 return on this route, and introduced non-stop trains, could that offer real competition to the bus?

I'll be using GoBÉ next week on the Dublin to Cork route, the only reason being is because it's cheaper than the train. If the train was €30 return I'd be back to it in a heartbeat after my positive experience on Monday. Would anybody else on the forum be tempted, and want other improvements do you think could be made to the train service?

With the Aircoach and GoBÉ threads on this forum it's time for this thread to offer healthy competition and debate .

The railway technology still could do with some modernisation. The year, after all, is 2013, and 125-mph diesel trains have been around for close to four decades after all. Tilting trains have been around for longer than that, as well (for going through curves faster).

Solair · 14-04-2013 8:46pm

MGWR wrote: »

The railway technology still could do with some modernisation. The year, after all, is 2013, and 125-mph diesel trains have been around for close to four decades after all. Tilting trains have been around for longer than that, as well (for going through curves faster).

- MK4 trains are 125mph capable with new locomotives.
- 22000s are 100mph capable as is. Perhaps they could be squeezed / tweaked up to 125mph by Hyundai with modifications to braking and drive systems, I'm not sure.

However, even at 100mph we should be able to reduce journey times. The network needs to be made 100mph capable.

I'd argue:

1) Upgrade Cork-Dublin to 125mph and get the new locomotives as they'd also probably massively reduce track wear if they're built to the correct spec which would overall reduce costs to the network. You could also probably get much more fuel-efficient locomotives than those 201s

I'm pretty sure that saving would justify the upgrade over time (especially in fuel and maintenance) even if you never achieved more than 100mph. It's probably not going to happen because the capital expenditure will be too high to justify now.

2) Upgrade the rest of the system to 100mph and try and make use of the top speeds of the 22000s.

3) Replace the enterprise with a version of the 22000s and get the line up to 100mph. It would do Dublin-Belfast really quickly. There's no real need for all this talk of HST2 on that line. It's very unlikely to happen.
It's only 102 miles!

You should be able to do Dublin-Belfast in say 1:40 with 22000s. The entire problem is the route i.e. sharing with commuter trains/DART, rather than the top speed of the rolling stock.

foggy_lad · 14-04-2013 10:28pm

No, because times have changed and the trains are not as important to travel/transport as they used to be.

Years ago in the trains heyday most people owned a car as they do today, but the big difference is the reliability of those cars! Most would not make it to Kildare from Dublin without overheating/grinding to a halt/wheel falling off etc never-mind trying to drive them to Waterford, Cork, Limerick, Galway or Tralee and back.

Back then people took the train as it was the only option for them, There was no buses which could match the train back then for speed and comfort, and although a very expensive way to travel it was ok as such journeys were only made very rarely and usually by a parent on their own rather than the whole family. If travelling to Cork it was considered an overnight event rather than just popping down in the morning and returning on the evening service as with delays and breakdowns the trains were not the most reliable, but at least you could get a pint!

Now we have the NCT and much more reliable cars with much better warranties and better servicing as almost all the backstreet garages have been shut down so cars are the cheapest and for most routes quickest way for more than one person to travel anywhere in the country! If a person is travelling alone than the train is still mostly the cheapest option but most chose to bring their car for the flexibility it offers at their destination and en route.

Just like the hundreds of branch/rural lines closed in the last hundred+ years Intercity rail and especially the Dublin/Cork route has had its day. I see it continuing on for a number of decades but being cut back more and more until it is about as frequent as the Waterford service.

Could the train once again be the King of the Dublin/Cork route?

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