DART+ (DART Expansion)

FreudianSlippers · 11-08-2010 9:42am

dowlingm wrote: »

Have just been reading about the Bombardier Spacium 3.06 sets SNCF has ordered for Paris regional commuter. 1500VDC, articulated, 87mph top speed, 915mm door height above rail, 94m or 112m length with short cars and with carriage widths just inside Irish loading gauge widths. Looks better than the side of a fridge too. SNCF entry to service in 2013. Just the thing for a long route like Drogheda-Kildare.

I like, but it will probably be some boxy piece of low bid crap instead...

Yeah, the Dart is seriously the ugliest thing I have seen in ages. It looked dated even in the 80s

dynamick · 11-08-2010 10:10am

Bombardier is part of the nascrail consortium, so maybe they'll supply the trains. Least of my worries what shape the trains are!

The pearse tunnel looks about 100m to me - that's a 1 minute walk and the new station entrance expands the pedestrian catchment area a little east.

Platforms will be about 100m long. If you've ever been a regular city rail commuter, you'll know that people start to figure out which end of the train is best to board so that they alight closest to their preferred exit. In the couple of minutes spent waiting for the train, the regulars naturally move along the platform to board at the right places for them.

tubbs26 · 11-08-2010 10:19am

As matter of interest what are the proposed journey times? For example how long will it take to get from Hazelhatch to Pearse?

Sponge Bob · 11-08-2010 10:44am

Pretty much same as now Hazelhatch - Heuston and then 10 mins Heuston - Pearce. It looks like the missing link will not be done for at least 10 years +

Cool Mo D · 11-08-2010 12:11pm

dynamick wrote: »

Platforms will be about 100m long. If you've ever been a regular city rail commuter, you'll know that people start to figure out which end of the train is best to board so that they alight closest to their preferred exit. In the couple of minutes spent waiting for the train, the regulars naturally move along the platform to board at the right places for them.

I'm pretty sure the platforms will be 200m?

dynamick · 11-08-2010 12:15pm

you're right - i was thinking of metro platforms

trellheim · 11-08-2010 1:06pm

To try and establish exact distances for the platforms etc from one another at Pearse I am trying to get down all of the documents using wget but it fails on the weird filenames they are using ... has anyone else mirrored that site ?

Cool Mo D · 11-08-2010 1:19pm

trellheim wrote: »

To try and establish exact distances for the platforms etc from one another at Pearse I am trying to get down all of the documents using wget but it fails on the weird filenames they are using ... has anyone else mirrored that site ?

Can't you use Firefox with DownThemAll? That worked perfectly for me.

monument · 11-08-2010 4:32pm

dynamick wrote: »

Bombardier is part of the nascrail consortium, so maybe they'll supply the trains. Least of my worries what shape the trains are!

Any new trains needed will be acquired outside of this. The Dart Underground Public Private Partnership is just a infrastructure project.

oppenheimer1 · 18-08-2010 8:29am

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

I'm going to guess one of the major factors determining station location is that they do not want the platforms on a curve or tight turns in the tunnel. This leads to problems for access for less mobile people as well as a safety hazard. There shouldn't be any need for "mind the gap" notices in Dublins new infrastructure.

There could be other technical difficulties as well. I know the ground type suddenly changes from stiff clay to soft permeable muds and sands in that part of the city.

I'm after having a bit more of a think about this. As far as I'm aware all the stations are to be built using a cut and cover technique. To have it directly beneath Pearse would require demolishing and rebuilding the station whilst severing the dart for years. Not feasible.

Incidentally I hate the way people give out about engineering decisions. The way some people and indeed the media go on you would think that such an important thing like location of a station was decided on arbitrary factors. This is of course grossly out of step with what actually happens, one will find that a lot of thought goes into even relatively minor decisions.

Stonewolf · 18-08-2010 9:33am

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

I'm after having a bit more of a think about this. As far as I'm aware all the stations are to be built using a cut and cover technique. To have it directly beneath Pearse would require demolishing and rebuilding the station whilst severing the dart for years. Not feasible.

I was under the impression that Pearse was to be mined.

markpb · 18-08-2010 9:34am

Stonewolf wrote: »

I was under the impression that Pearse was to be mined.

IIRC Pearse, O'Connell Bridge and a third station that I can't remember right now are to be mined.

Stonewolf · 18-08-2010 9:35am

markpb wrote: »

IIRC Pearse, O'Connell Bridge and a third station that I can't remember right now are to be mined.

Stevens Green is to be mined so as to have minimal impact on the above ground area.

BluntGuy · 18-08-2010 10:00am

As far as I know, Heuston, Christchurch, St.Stephen's Green and Pearse will have mined platforms with Docklands being cut-and-cover.

oppenheimer1 · 18-08-2010 11:07am

Stonewolf wrote: »

Stevens Green is to be mined so as to have minimal impact on the above ground area.

markpb wrote: »

IIRC Pearse, O'Connell Bridge and a third station that I can't remember right now are to be mined.

Stonewolf wrote: »

I was under the impression that Pearse was to be mined.

BluntGuy wrote: »

As far as I know, Heuston, Christchurch, St.Stephen's Green and Pearse will have mined platforms with Docklands being cut-and-cover.

I'll have to pay closer attention to the documents/method statements released! Getting confused with Metro North. Thanks:)

Sponge Bob · 18-08-2010 11:16am

Inchicore will be cut and cover too.

BluntGuy · 18-08-2010 11:29am

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Inchicore will be cut and cover too.

I'm sure that's just retained cut, they won't be covering the station. It's just the tunnel portal that's cut-and-cover, no?

monument · 18-08-2010 11:58am

Stonewolf wrote: »

I was under the impression that Pearse was to be mined.

Even where a station is to be mined, there is digging to provide for the stairwells, escalators, elevators, emergency stairwells, and vents, and a second smaller dig to provide for secondly vents and secondly emergency stairwells.

Stonewolf · 18-08-2010 2:59pm

monument wrote: »

Even where a station is to be mined, there is digging to provide for the stairwells, escalators, elevators, emergency stairwells, and vents, and a second smaller dig to provide for secondly vents and secondly emergency stairwells.

Yeah but nothing to the extent of what you'd need for cut and cover as oppenheimer1 suggested.

zootroid · 18-08-2010 7:01pm

I'm not sure if this has been covered, but I have heard a local Labour councillor has made an appeal to an bord pleanala for a station to be located at East Wall. Anyone think this will happen?

monument · 18-08-2010 8:18pm

These were up in East Wall in the last few weeks, also posters in house windows around the area...

BluntGuy · 18-08-2010 8:21pm

zootroid wrote: »

I'm not sure if this has been covered, but I have heard a local Labour councillor has made an appeal to an bord pleanala for a station to be located at East Wall. Anyone think this will happen?

Doubt it.

Edit:

Do these campaigners have some sort of website or place we could get information on their proposals?

monument · 18-08-2010 8:33pm

BluntGuy wrote: »

Do these campaigners have some sort of website or place we could get information on their proposals?

They have a Facebook page with some extra posters in the photos gallery, little else at the moment: http://en-gb.facebook.com/group.php?gid=143165059033102

'Protect East Wall' -- "Campaigning for proper community consultation for the people of East Wall in response to the unveiling of the Dart Underground scheme."

Stonewolf wrote: »

Yeah but nothing to the extent of what you'd need for cut and cover as oppenheimer1 suggested.

Having it directly beneath Pearse would still require demolishing and rebuilding a large section of the station and/or other building of larger size and more importance than under the current plan.

murphaph · 18-08-2010 8:41pm

I don't usually have any time for NIMBYs but if IE really are planning on trucking out the spoil then surely questions have to be asked. Where is the spoil to be taken? Can it not be taken out by rail to a transfer point or even all the way to a disposal site adjacent to CIE land?

Sponge Bob · 18-08-2010 8:55pm

murphaph wrote: »

I don't usually have any time for NIMBYs but if IE really are planning on trucking out the spoil then surely questions have to be asked. Where is the spoil to be taken?

No excuse for that , they should take the spoil out by rail.

trellheim · 18-08-2010 9:08pm

I am reading through the railway order, some of the diagrams show routes for spoil removal, SSG in particular, haven't got to Docklands yet.

strassenwo!f · 19-08-2010 10:40pm

trellheim wrote:

I am reading through the application for a railway order, some of the diagrams show routes for spoil removal, SSG in particular, haven't got to Docklands yet.

FYP

dRNk SAnTA · 28-10-2010 7:59pm

I'm surprised how long this thread has gone without any updates.

I just found this video about DART Underground, I don't think it's been posted before but sorry if it has been.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o8hMdzKhPGE

Link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o8hMdzKhPGE

Zebra3 · 28-10-2010 8:09pm

monument wrote: »

These were up in East Wall in the last few weeks, also posters in house windows around the area...

Is the soil actually contaminated? If so, by what?

Is it not a good thing then if it's being removed?

Transportuser09 · 28-10-2010 9:26pm

Zebra3 wrote: »

Is the soil actually contaminated? If so, by what?

Is it not a good thing then if it's being removed?

You'd think they would bring some of the soil out by train where possible. Aside from that though while there's no doubt residents will be distrupted, surely they'll benifit in the long run. You can't make an omlette without breaking some eggs.

Stonewolf · 29-10-2010 12:08pm

dRNk SAnTA wrote: »

I'm surprised how long this thread has gone without any updates.

I just found this video about DART Underground, I don't think it's been posted before but sorry if it has been.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o8hMdzKhPGE

Link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o8hMdzKhPGE

They're not seriously suggesting open air escalators in our climate?

Also the signs above the doors at Christchurch and Inchecore as depicted in those videos would be illegal.

monument · 29-10-2010 12:28pm

Stonewolf wrote: »

They're not seriously suggesting open air escalators in our climate?

Our climate is a reasonably mild, if not very mild compared to elsewhere.

Aard · 29-10-2010 12:48pm

That's a great video. I wouldn't worry about the Irish-only signs; they'll change them. The stations look spacious, and subtly designed. Leaving price-tags, and whether or not it'll actually be built aside, I think that the travelling public would enjoy using these stations. I can already picture people calling it the "Tube", pretending we're all worldly and sophisticated

patrickmooney · 29-10-2010 1:38pm

Gotta agree with the signs. Can't see why we couldn't have a standard logo for public transport, like london. Change the colour or such to indicate if it's dart/luas/bus etc. Would help in identifying the services.

dubhthach · 29-10-2010 2:35pm

In that video I see Inchicore written in both Irish and English. the irish spelling over the door and the spelling in English on the nearby wall. I'm assuming the same would be the case at Christ Church.

markpb · 29-10-2010 3:37pm

Why do you have to walk through automatic gates to get into St. Stephens Green park (5m22)?

Irish Rail RPU must be thinking about taking over OPW.

Also, isn't it a little pessimistic that the trains are all completely empty in their own promotional videos? The poor woman who boards the train at 8h19 is the only one on the entire train.

monument · 29-10-2010 3:45pm

markpb wrote: »

Why do you have to walk through automatic gates to get into St. Stephens Green park (5m22)? Irish Rail RPU must be thinking about taking over OPW.

Not sure if you're joking, but that a lift to the station.

markpb · 29-10-2010 3:48pm

monument wrote: »

Not sure if you're joking, but that a lift to the station.

I was only half joking, I wasn't sure what they were. The lifts appear to be in-line with the fence into the park.

dRNk SAnTA · 29-10-2010 4:38pm

The stations look nice, but I'm a bit scared of the Irish Rail engineers interior designing skills. It would be nice if they teamed with an architect or design firm, it needn't be expensive. I don't want sound like Gok Wan, but yellow handrails? no thanks (girlfriend).

Pete_Cavan · 29-10-2010 6:46pm

dRNk SAnTA wrote: »

The stations look nice, but I'm a bit scared of the Irish Rail engineers interior designing skills. It would be nice if they teamed with an architect or design firm, it needn't be expensive. I don't want sound like Gok Wan, but yellow handrails? no thanks (girlfriend).

That is not the final station design. Im sure the actual stations will be as basic and as practical (engineer speak for cheap) as possible, cant see us having the money to employ architects.

Brian CivilEng · 29-10-2010 9:11pm

I thought that yellow handrails was the current best practise for to increase visibility for those that are visually impaired. Aesthetics are all well and good but not if it interferes with accessibility.

BluntGuy · 30-10-2010 12:23am

Architecture-wise the renders of the proposed stations look functional enough. They don't need to be anything fancy, though it would be nice to have maybe a "signature" underground station - I would think St.Stephen's Green.

The proposed design is more of the same cream tiles/glass variety which is in vogue. I'm not a fan, but it's the least of my worries when it comes to a project such as this. As long as the stations are accessible and relatively well-laid out (which it seems they will be) that's the main thing.

Aard · 30-10-2010 9:14am

+1 BluntGuy.

I'd just like to remind people that for a while there it was touch and go as to whether there would even be escalators; yellow handrails are the least of our worries! The stations look spacious, accessible, and not particularly confusing. Let's just be happy we won't be trudging up and down ten flights of stairs a day!

Pete_Cavan · 30-10-2010 2:30pm

BluntGuy wrote: »

As long as the stations are accessible and relatively well-laid out (which it seems they will be) that's the main thing.

Spot on. As long as they are functional first, they can always paint the walls (and handrails) later.

donvito99 · 30-10-2010 5:15pm

Is it not possible to have the portal closer to Heuston Station and avoid tunneling the whole way to inchicore?

DWCommuter · 30-10-2010 5:51pm

donvito99 wrote: »

Is it not possible to have the portal closer to Heuston Station and avoid tunneling the whole way to inchicore?

That was the original plan, which was bonkers as it would lead to congestion. However the current plan at Inchicore may have congestion issues as well.

Stonewolf · 31-10-2010 1:09am

monument wrote: »

Our climate is a reasonably mild, if not very mild compared to elsewhere.

Our climate includes a lot of rain ...

Zebra3 · 01-11-2010 2:36am

Not sure if this has been mentioned before but if the taxpayer is gonna pay for the DU, I assume that the Dart will start to run as late as the Luas..... :rolleyes:

DWCommuter · 03-11-2010 12:20am

Zebra3 wrote: »

Not sure if this has been mentioned before but if the taxpayer is gonna pay for the DU, I assume that the Dart will start to run as late as the Luas..... :rolleyes:

Who knows who'll be paying for DU. But the issue of later services is bogged down (even now) with traditional union dominated issues. An area that Noellie rollie pass the book Dempsey, his predecessors and successors, will all avoid by taking the long route around and ultimately stagnating the successful implementation of decent public transport, even on a shoestring budget.

The luas as you know it, operates in the way that it does, because it was taken away from CIE via the creation of the RPA, which in itself is just a fragile holding space until a Government is brave enough to dismantle CIE. (The rail aspects of CIE are the most troublesome in terms of unions and work practices.)

Telchak · 03-11-2010 2:07pm

Surprised this hadn't popped up. An article from the Independent last week. A figure of €3billion given this time, no idea here they pulled this number from :rolleyes:

wrote:

PASSENGERS will be able to give their views on plans to build a railway tunnel underneath Dublin city centre when a public hearing begins next month.

An Bord Pleanala will open an oral hearing into the €3bn DART underground project in November which is expected to last for at least a month.
Almost 280 parties have made submissions including government departments, politicians and residents groups.

If approved by the board, it would result in the capital having two DART lines -- one from Maynooth to Bray, and a second from Hazelhatch/Celbridge to Howth.

And Iarnrod Eireann says if the Government approves the €3bn project, the equivalent of 25 million car kilometres will be taken off the roads and there will be 30 fewer road collisions in the capital.

The confidential business report also says that 2,000 jobs will be located around each of the five underground stations at Spencer Dock, Pearse Street, St Stephen's Green, Christchurch and Heuston "as a conservative estimate".

This is because businesses will be encouraged to cluster together to make best use of the line.

The unpublished Iarnrod Eireann report, obtained by the Irish Independent, also predicts that the DART underground linking rail services between Heuston and Connolly stations will have a major beneficial impact on traffic congestion and will cut pollution from emissions.

The system was to be built by 2015 but has been delayed until 2018 because of a longer than expected planning and design process.

The Government also has to give the final green light to the project.

- Treacy Hogan Environment Correspondent
Irish Independent

DART+ (DART Expansion)

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