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Match Thread : Irish Wolfhounds V England Saxons Friday 30th Jan 2015

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  • 29-01-2015 5:46pm
    #1
    Posts: 0


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    Irish Independent Park | Kick Off 19:45 | RTE 2 Sky Sports 2

    Weather conditions : Dry, Scattered Clouds, 3 Degrees, 80% Humidity, 21 KPH Winds

    Introduction


    Musgrave Park. Refurbished and renamed to Irish Independent Park hosts the Irish Wolfhounds as they take on the England Saxons in a fixture that was once a passable event in the Irish Rugby Calendar.

    Attitudes towards this fixture have changed however due to one important and somewhat new aspect of Irish Rugby. Depth.

    Much of this team on paper has the potential to be or has recently been first choice and the permutations regarding who will start next week are going to lead to a tremendous number of yellow cards in various threads in the coming days.

    I can only imagine that Joe sat up last night and studied all the possibilities, eventualities and statistics to come up with the absolute best 23 to test combinations, fitness and competition for places. Either that, or he said feck it - what "typical Joe curveball" will most likely mess with heads on boards.ie
    curveball.jpg

    One player you would expect to start next week, but may still need a big performance tomorrow is Ian Madigan. Like Tony Ward in the famous 1981 Munster victory over Australia at this very venue, Madigan finds himself at 10 despite a gruelling season to date switching between out-half and centre. With so much rugby played over recent weeks I would expect to see him make way early... but for whom!

    He is joined at scrum half by Kieran Marmion who is slowly breaking into the Irish set up and will have a lot to prove given the potential injuries to Murray / Reddan.

    All eyes will also be on the returning Sean O'Brien. Nothing else needs to be said here and I am going to cringe the first couple of tackles he makes. He is joined by an all Leinster back row with Conan at 8 who has made a significant breakthrough this year and Dominic Ryan at 6 though I suspect he will be playing in much the same capacity as Peter O'Mahony in the same position.

    In the front row Mike Ross who has apparently dropped down the pecking order at Leinster will look to get some momentum back. Henderson at 4 instead of 6 may illustrate Joe's thinking and Luke and Earls look like they are competing for utility centre / back 3 bench spot.

    Team sheets & Player Ratings

    To add some important context to the team sheets I have included player ratings based on the only two metrics that count.

    1. Number of European Cup Winners medals
    2. Number of times Approached by Toulouse

    Toulouse ERC Ireland Position England ERC Toulouse
    0 0 Felix Jones 15 Chris Pennell 0 0
    0 2 Fergus McFaddan 14 Chris Ashton 0 0
    0 1 Keith Earls 13 Elliot Daly 0 0
    0 3 Gordon D'Arcy 12 Sam Burgess 0 0
    0 2 Luke Fitzgerald 11 Marland Yarde 0 0
    0 2 Ian Madigan 10 Henry Slade 0 0
    0 0 Kieran Marmion 9 Lee Dickson 0 0
    0 0 Jack McGrath 1 Matt Mullan 0 0
    0 2 Richardt Strauss 2 Rob Webber 0 0
    0 2 Mike Ross 3 Henry Thomas 0 0
    0 0 Iain Henderson 4 Matt Garvey 0 0
    0 0 Micke McCarthy 5 James Gaskell 0 0
    0 0 Dominic Ryan 6 Dave Ewers 0 0
    0 3 Sean O'F'ING Brien 7 Matt Kvesic 0 0
    0 0 Jack Conan 8 Thomas Waldrom 0 0

    0 0 Rob Herring 16 Luke Cowan Dickie 0 0
    0 0 Michael Bent 17 Alex Waller 0 0
    0 1 Nathan White 18 Jake Cooper-Woolley 0 0
    0 0 Robbie Diack 19 Maro Itoje 0 0
    0 0 Eoin McKeon 20 Carl Fearns 0 0
    0 1 Isaac Boss 21 Joe Simpson 0 0
    0 0 Noel Reid 22 Ollie Devoto 0 0
    0 0 Craig Gilroy 23 Christian Wade 0 0
    Total Total Total Total
    0 17 0 0

    The difference in experience jumps off the page though one would wonder as to the fundamental quality of players in the absence of any direct approaches from the French side.

    It's hard to tell if this is a purely experimental English unit to test out some newer talent or if it is in reaction to the heavy injury toll they are currently suffering. Either way, a reverse of 2013's 14 - 10 loss would be expected given the above team sheets.

    Planet Rugby have a brief article on the English team here.

    Both sides have plenty of players with plenty to prove so this game should be close enough to test standard, but I can't see anything other than a win for Ireland.


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Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,784 ✭✭✭total former


    I see you've stripped Nathan White of his Heineken Cup medal, as punishment for deserting us. Nice one.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,442 ✭✭✭its_phil


    Are those ERC European Cup medals? Because if you haven't heard they don't count anymore. EPCR or nothing


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,442 ✭✭✭its_phil


    Main hope from this game other than a good showing at half-back, is SOB to bosh Burgess and "say welcome to union b****


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,930 ✭✭✭duckysauce


    Anyone know who is reffing this ?


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,207 ✭✭✭durkadurka


    Is this last chance soon for Ross and Dorce I wonder ?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 17,013 ✭✭✭✭Neil3030


    durkadurka wrote: »
    Is this last chance soon for Ross and Dorce I wonder ?

    336904.png


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,415 ✭✭✭Swiwi.


    Had me panicking for a minute there. I was like 9.45 kick-off in Ireland makes it 2245 in Switzerland, wow that's a late game! Then I was like surely not 9.45am?!

    I think you mean 1945 ;)


  • Registered Users Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    Swiwi. wrote: »
    Had me panicking for a minute there. I was like 9.45 kick-off in Ireland makes it 2245 in Switzerland, wow that's a late game! Then I was like surely not 9.45am?!

    I think you mean 1945 ;)

    No I don't think the Saxons or the Wolhounds existed in 1945


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,415 ✭✭✭Swiwi.


    No I don't think the Saxons or the Wolhounds existed in 1945

    For IBF and other pedants - 19:45 :P

    NB: Was jaco not captain of the wolfhounds in '45?


  • Posts: 0 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Swiwi. wrote: »
    For IBF and other pedants - 19:45 :P

    NB: Was jaco not captain of the wolfhounds in '45?

    Yup, 1845


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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 14,166 Mod ✭✭✭✭Zzippy


    Yup, 1845

    Damn you Emmet, beat me to it! :D


  • Registered Users Posts: 746 ✭✭✭RogerThis


    Is Reid a 10, only seen him play center?


  • Registered Users Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    RogerThis wrote: »
    Is Reid a 10, only seen him play center?

    No, he has played 10 but never successfully.


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,967 ✭✭✭✭The Lost Sheep


    RogerThis wrote: »
    Is Reid a 10, only seen him play center?
    Primarily a centre but has played a bit at 10 and was a 10 at age grade level


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,075 ✭✭✭✭vienne86


    Primarily a centre but has played a bit at 10 and was a 10 at age grade level

    I once saw him play 10 for the A's. He's not a 10.


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,967 ✭✭✭✭The Lost Sheep


    vienne86 wrote: »
    I once saw him play 10 for the A's. He's not a 10.
    Did I say he was? He's played there. He played there at age grade and has played there on occasion since


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,780 ✭✭✭✭mfceiling


    I'm worried that Burgess and SOB collide at some stage tomorrow. Something similar happened 14 billion years ago and look what happened...


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,075 ✭✭✭✭vienne86


    Did I say he was? He's played there. He played there at age grade and has played there on occasion since

    .....which makes it very surprising that he could find himself playing 10 for the Wolfhounds.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,784 ✭✭✭total former


    The notion that Reid is a terrible fly half stems from one game against Munster A, two or three years ago.

    He's definitely a 12 by trade but f**k it, if he has to play 10 for 20 minutes in a meaningless exhibition match, we'll survive.


  • Registered Users Posts: 746 ✭✭✭RogerThis


    The notion that Reid is a terrible fly half stems from one game against Munster A, two or three years ago.

    He's definitely a 12 by trade but f**k it, if he has to play 10 for 20 minutes in a meaningless exhibition match, we'll survive.
    So he is Paddy Wallace 2.0

    He's a really good 12. Himself and Henshaw would be a good centre partnership.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,784 ✭✭✭total former


    RogerThis wrote: »
    So he is Paddy Wallace 2.0

    If he turns out to be as good as 1.0 I'll be very happy.


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,756 ✭✭✭✭bilston


    RogerThis wrote: »
    So he is Paddy Wallace 2.0

    Hopefully!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,002 ✭✭✭f1dan


    duckysauce wrote: »
    Anyone know who is reffing this ?

    Neil Hennessy from Wales I believe


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 14,599 Mod ✭✭✭✭CIARAN_BOYLE


    RogerThis wrote: »
    So he is Paddy Wallace 2.0

    He's a really good 12. Himself and Henshaw would be a good centre partnership.

    Pretty much yeah


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,075 ✭✭✭✭vienne86


    The notion that Reid is a terrible fly half stems from one game against Munster A, two or three years ago.

    He's definitely a 12 by trade but f**k it, if he has to play 10 for 20 minutes in a meaningless exhibition match, we'll survive.

    I think that's a fair comment. I'm a bit of a fan of Reid, and I'm delighted he's got himself on the bench tomorrow, given he has missed out so much with injury.


  • Registered Users Posts: 609 ✭✭✭English Lurker


    I would like to say that, about the fifth time I saw him, I discovered a great urge to see Henderson, Ferris and O'Brien on the same pitch. Obviously I will never get to see that, but I do feel a sense of unholy glee at getting to see Henderson and O'Brien combine, even if these are the worst circumstances I could see in it. Que sera, sera - I am a rugby fan before I am an Englishman.
    It's hard to tell if this is a purely experimental English unit to test out some newer talent or if it is in reaction to the heavy injury toll they are currently suffering. Either way, a reverse of 2013's 14 - 10 loss would be expected given the above team sheets.

    Planet Rugby have a brief article on the English team here.

    The only non-standard parts about this team are the second row and 10-12-13; and even then, everyone involved but Slammin' Sam have Saxons caps.

    Garvey, Gaskell and Itoje wouldn't be involved if we didn't have 4 locks out; I don't see Garvey and Gaskell ever playing for England, but Itoje is a shooting star.

    Henry Slade has been blowing up the Premiership at 13 for Exeter but was fly-half and vice-captain for England against the Barbarians last summer; he's a big part of our future. Big things are expected of Burgess of course. Daly's a bit of a surprise imo, his previous Saxons caps have mainly been in the back three, and I don't think he has an England future at 13; but he's certainly part of the reckoning and he's been playing more at 13 this year, so makes some sense.

    Rest of the team... Mullan, Webber, Thomas all have caps; Webber will go the WC, the other two are one injury away. Kvesic and Waldrom likewise have caps and have been around the squad, Ewers has been threatening to break through for a while. Dickson, Yarde and Ashton all been around plenty, Pennell broke through last summer but has been unlucky with injuries.

    Two things I'm worried about are defence - none of our three-quarter line are known for getting it right - and the lineout, where Webber's been wobbly and he only really had one target. But then, the Irish pack isn't brimming with top jumpers either.

    If England can get a decent supply of ball, then it's a very mobile pack and we have a number of very big men. Obviously we've got no monopoly, but it would be no surprise if Garvey/Ewers/Waldrom/Burgess made in-roads into a relatively small centre partnership. I hope Ashton and Yarde are working hard to track runs because I think that's England's best hope; our centre partnership aren't great distributors and McFadden/Fitz are *very* solid defensive wings.

    Ireland have a straight-up advantage in terms of quality and experience. I don't think any of you would be terribly concerned if this team entire played Italy. Players like O'Brien, Henderson, Fitzgerald - there are some phenomenally good players there. I noted England's big men; McCarthy, Henderson, O'Brien and the Barbarian is one hell of a brute squad for grabbing front foot ball. The strike running talent out wide is silly - having Gilroy on the bench for an A game is just obscene. Crucially, I think Ireland look like being a lot better at the breakdown than England, and I think that will give them the sort of dominance this quality should not squander.

    Bluntly, I'd be happy with staying within 7; a big loss wouldn't surprise me too much but I'd unhappy with it. Around a 10-12 point difference sounds right. At least we'll be seeing some of those Irish boys going off early...


  • Registered Users Posts: 249 ✭✭managerman


    i think this game is more for madigan to get game time at 10, i fully expect him to play 10 next week, ross needs game time too, last few weeks he has been ousted by marty moore.. hopefully it will be a good game to watch, free flowing rugby!


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,601 ✭✭✭✭errlloyd


    Pennell broke through last summer but has been unlucky with injuries.

    Wanna zoom in on Pennell here. He's playing in the championship, but apparently was simply the only good thing about Worchester last season. Have you seen much of him, could you compare his style to a fullback we know better and do you see him being great?


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,018 ✭✭✭Bridge93


    Hard to believe that England team is probably their 3rd but mostly 4th choice players in most positions. Crazy depth in some spots.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 13,585 ✭✭✭✭thebaz


    mfceiling wrote: »
    I'm worried that Burgess and SOB collide at some stage tomorrow. Something similar happened 14 billion years ago and look what happened...

    I'm hoping SOB has a quiet game , just a few gentle runs - no big hits - leave that to Ryan . In fact i hope SOB does very little except stay fit until the WC - and then unleashed full throttle on the world


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