Gardai (and Shatter) failed to enforce the law at RIRA funeral

Laminations · 11-09-2012 9:32pm

Happyman42 wrote: »

. What are you going to do about it, is the real question.

They think differently. Again, what solutions have you other than wipe them out or violently suppress. Those mistakes where made before and look where it got us.

Violently suppress? Wipe them out? Are you just inventing posts here?

How is crowd control, interference and disruption of their paramilitary activities wiping them out or violently suppressing them? We have freedoms of expression, they don't extend to putting on subversive paramilitary parades.

What'll I do? Berate, belittle and discredit the lunatics at every opportunity I get. They don't deserve a platform, they don't deserve some consideration of their point of view, they are common criminals, an organised gang involved in murder extortion and terrorism. What'll you do? Continue to think they have legitimate concerns and suggest we all hear them out?? Are you a terrorist sympathiser because it sounds like you are sympathising with these dissidents....or do you think they are freedom fighters?

Happyman42 · 11-09-2012 9:43pm

Laminations wrote: »

Violently suppress? Wipe them out? Are you just inventing posts here?

How is crowd control, interference and disruption of their paramilitary activities wiping them out or violently suppressing them? We have freedoms of expression, they don't extend to putting on subversive paramilitary parades.

What would the gardai do....ask them to stop? What then, force and supression.
We had somebody on here who thought the solution lay in the deployment of snipers.

What'll I do? Berate, belittle and discredit the lunatics at every opportunity I get. They don't deserve a platform, they don't deserve some consideration of their point of view,

And it will be as useless as the condemnation has always been.

they are common criminals, an organised gang involved in murder extortion and terrorism.

Heard it all before from the same sources, same newspapers.

What'll you do? Continue to think they have legitimate concerns and suggest we all hear them out?? Are you a terrorist sympathiser because it sounds like you are sympathising with these dissidents....or do you think they are freedom fighters?

I'll continue to listen to those who recognise what the real issues are and why they are issues.
What I won't do is sit on the high moral ground and engage in pointless condemnation and name calling.

hatrickpatrick · 11-09-2012 10:08pm

Laminations wrote: »

Violently suppress? Wipe them out? Are you just inventing posts here?

How is crowd control, interference and disruption of their paramilitary activities wiping them out or violently suppressing them? We have freedoms of expression, they don't extend to putting on subversive paramilitary parades.

What'll I do? Berate, belittle and discredit the lunatics at every opportunity I get. They don't deserve a platform, they don't deserve some consideration of their point of view, they are common criminals, an organised gang involved in murder extortion and terrorism. What'll you do? Continue to think they have legitimate concerns and suggest we all hear them out?? Are you a terrorist sympathiser because it sounds like you are sympathising with these dissidents....or do you think they are freedom fighters?

Out of interest, if they hadn't had guns at this event would you still be suggesting that we "suppress" them?

I'm starting to get the feeling from these posts that your issue with this goes beyond the firing of a firearm in public and into the realm of seeking to silence them completely, which would be a serious violation of freedom of speech. That worked really well the last time it was tried, didn't it?

And by the way, I think the RIRA are... Well I can't use the words I'd like to because Boards' almighty banhammer will fall in my general direction, but I loathe them with a passion, what happened in Omagh is enough by itself to hate these guys (in fact in my opinion, even those who DO support violent uprising should still condemn the RIRA) - but thats irrelevant. Banning parades etc is tantamount to a free speech violation and in a democracy that isn't on. They have every right to assemble and have a funeral procession.

If I'm misinterpreting your post and your only problem with this was the firing of weapons, then I apologize for misinterpreting it.

Laminations · 11-09-2012 11:36pm

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

I'm starting to get the feeling from these posts that your issue with this goes beyond the firing of a firearm in public and into the realm of seeking to silence them completely, which would be a serious violation of freedom of speech. That worked really well the last time it was tried, didn't it?

Banning parades etc is tantamount to a free speech violation and in a democracy that isn't on. They have every right to assemble and have a funeral procession.

If they want to parade let them bang a drum or play their flutes. Freedom of speech does not extend to granting terrorists the right to hold a paramilitary parade. Nor does the right to assemble confer the right to be a member of a paramilitary organisation.

The gardai were in a position where they could not intervene. That is regrettable but even the Minister for Justice isn't suggesting that paramilitaries have a right to hold these public demonstrations

MINISTER FOR Justice Alan Shatter has described as “reprehensible and absolutely unacceptable” the public show of paramilitary strength, including a gun salute, at the funeral of murdered Real IRA member Alan Ryan.

They should be ashamed of themselves, using a funeral as an opportunity to flex their muscle...and issue death threats

Laminations · 12-09-2012 8:24am

Fenian Army wrote: »

Thanks for that, the scene of the detective climbing out of the ditch soaking wet made my day

tayto lover wrote: »

You would probably be the first to run to him crying if anything happened to one of your family. You need to cop on just like the fools involved in the funeral farce.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2012/0912/1224323911759.html

Typical.

'Gardai protect us. Investigate crimes against us. PS we hate you, hassle and abuse you. And we'll frustrate your efforts in policing and won't cooperate in your investigations of crimes against others'.

Happyman42 · 12-09-2012 9:09am

Laminations wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2012/0912/1224323911759.html

Typical.

'Gardai protect us. Investigate crimes against us. PS we hate you, hassle and abuse you. And we'll frustrate your efforts in policing and won't cooperate in your investigations of crimes against others'.

The detective was a member of 'The Heavy Gang'.
Where you sleeping safely in your bed while they were doing their special brand of even handed and protective policing?
Maybe FG can see to it that they are brought back again so that the interests of the 'peace' loving, non 'violent' (when it suits them) section of the community can be 'protected'?
You are making the same mistakes the previous generation made, the Heavy Gang saw to it that positions became more entrenched, that previously uninvolved people became involved and that the Guards themselves (by dint of the fact that they where maintaining the border and the will of the Crown) became targets.

JustinDee · 12-09-2012 10:01am

Laminations wrote: »

It depends how dangerous and incendiary their message is. There is a disillusioned unemployed undereducated youth in this country who are looking for a cause, looking for something to galvanise them and channel their anger. My point is that preparedness and crowd control should have meant the situation shouldn't have gotten to the point of being volatile. Definitely interference with the crowd at the funeral would have escalated (and possibly been a trigger point for galvanising support for dissidents). It should never have been allowed get to a position where the gardai could not act. I cannot see how proper crowd control would have benefitted them, it would've inconvenienced them but in small enough groups to be manageable. Also i would think its best To challenge and discredit the movement while it's minor rather than let them spread their message freely

Volatility wasn't created. It comes with the territory when a small crowd of delusive individuals gather for an alleged show of strength (more the threat of though). You keep bringing up that it should never have been allowed to become tense. It was a gangland killing. Of course it is going to be a volatile situation.
Gardai handled situation admirably and perfectly and as a bonus, got to add more faces to surveillance target lists. Biggest mistake this gang could have made was going for publicity.

Laminations wrote: »

Additionally yes the media could have completely ignored it, but ive been told a few times, they gotsta sell papers.

Regardless of your view on the incident, it is news at the end of the day.

SaoriseBiker · 12-09-2012 10:42am

SocSocPol wrote: »

Perhaps because most posters recognise that the greater threat to the state is from the likes of these organized crime gangs who masquerade as "freedom fighters". Alan Ryan was a leader in an organized crime gang, he live and drew his power from terror, the state owes it to decent law abiding people to do all possible to ensure the other criminals in his gang are not allowed to arrange a public show of force especially one that involves gangsters firing guns in public in a residential area.

The greatest threat to this state is the crime gang who masquerade as "the forces of law and order" in their various disguises in the north east Ireland who have murdered more people on either side of the border down the years than the RIRA could ever hope to do, i.e. the British forces. The state owes it to all it's citizens including those who have broke the law in the past to do all possible to ensure the other criminals are not allowed to arrange a public show of force especially one that involves gangsters shooting someone dead on the street. Anything else is blatant hypocrisy, something we're too familiar with in this corrupt, rotten Gombeen state.

JustinDee · 12-09-2012 10:44am

SaoriseBiker wrote: »

The greatest threat to this state is the crime gang who masquerade as "the forces of law and order" in the north east Ireland who have murdered more people on either side of the border down the years than the RIRA could ever hope to do, i.e. the British forces. The state owes it to all it's citizens including those who have broke the law in the past to do all possible to ensure the other criminals are not allowed to arrange a public show of force especially one that involves gangsters shooting someone dead on the street. Anything else is blatant hypocrisy, something we're too familiar with in this corrupt, rotten Gombeen state.

I suggest you take a peek at some statistics covering the so-called Troubles, dear anonymous fellow. After that, be a little less selective with your theorisations.

SaoriseBiker · 12-09-2012 10:50am

JustinDee wrote: »

I suggest you take a peek at some statistics covering the so-called Troubles, dear anonymous fellow. After that, be a little less selective with your theorisations.

Clearly your the one who needs to take a peep at some statistics. Here ya go for the various organizations including the RIRA on both sides of the border http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/sutton/tables/Organisation_Responsible.html

(BTW, I'm not a supporter of the RIRA by any means, but I cannot understand the hypocrisy of being more concerned about wearing military uniforms than the shooting of someone dead on the street, a person who obviously was well respected by his community it should be said)

JustinDee · 12-09-2012 11:01am

SaoriseBiker wrote: »

Clearly your the one who needs to take a peep at some statistics. Here ya go for the various organizations including the RIRA on both sides of the border http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/sutton/tables/Organisation_Responsible.html

Thanks for that simplistic list. Even that shows the extreme tilt in your claim.

SaoriseBiker wrote: »

(BTW, I'm not a supporter of the RIRA by any means, but I cannot understand the hypocrisy of being more concerned about wearing military uniforms than the shooting of someone dead on the street, a person who obviously was well respected by his community it should be said)

"Respected by his community"? You're basing this on what exactly? Which community?

Laminations · 12-09-2012 11:06am

SaoriseBiker wrote: »

Clearly your the one who needs to take a peep at some statistics. Here ya go for the various organizations including the RIRA on both sides of the border http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/sutton/tables/Organisation_Responsible.html

http://www.wesleyjohnston.com/users/ireland/past/troubles/troubles_stats.html
The IRA killed most people during the Troubles. Even if they didn't what do the Troubles have to do with this organised crime gang?

(BTW, I'm not a supporter of the RIRA by any means,

well you say that but by trying to link their brand of murder extortion and terrorism to the Troubles, you obviously think they have a legitimate cause.

but I cannot understand the hypocrisy of being more concerned about wearing military uniforms than the shooting of someone dead on the street, a person who obviously was well respected by his community it should be said)

Don't confuse respect with fear. And you need to clarify what 'community' you are referring to.
http://www.sinnfein.ie/contents/24385

So you must mean he was held in high regard by his fellow criminals and terrorists. So bleedin what

SaoriseBiker · 12-09-2012 11:14am

JustinDee wrote: »

Thanks for that simplistic list. Even that shows the extreme tilt in your claim.

"Respected by his community"? You're basing this on what exactly? Which community?

Watching the news and seeing the turn out in the neighborhood.

SaoriseBiker · 12-09-2012 11:18am

Laminations wrote: »

http://www.wesleyjohnston.com/users/ireland/past/troubles/troubles_stats.html
The IRA killed most people during the Troubles. Even if they didn't what do the Troubles have to do with this organised crime gang?

well you say that but by trying to link their brand of murder extortion and terrorism to the Troubles, you obviously think they have a legitimate cause.

Don't confuse respect with fear. And you need to clarify what 'community' you are referring to.
http://www.sinnfein.ie/contents/24385

So you must mean he was held in high regard by his fellow criminals and terrorists. So bleedin what

Your the one who brought up the subject of the biggest murder gang in the country, I pointed out who it is. As for SF, clearly they don't speak for the people who actually knew Alan Ryan. Again I repeat I am not a RIRA supporter.

( the denouncements of AR are it should be said, are almost verbatim what was said when Martin Doherty was murdered trying to prevent the British dirty tricks dept gang the UVF blowing up the Widow Scallans pub on Pearse St some years ago)

JustinDee · 12-09-2012 11:34am

SaoriseBiker wrote: »

Your the one who brought up the subject of the biggest murder gang in the country, I pointed out who it is.

Yes, the Provisionals.

JustinDee · 12-09-2012 11:36am

SaoriseBiker wrote: »

Watching the news and seeing the turn out in the neighborhood.

Die-hard and deluded supporters/activists from Scotland or Northern Ireland hardly constitute what anyone would normally infer as someone's "community".

Happyman42 · 12-09-2012 11:40am

JustinDee wrote: »

Die-hard and deluded supporters/activists from Scotland or Northern Ireland hardly constitute what anyone would normally infer as someone's "community".

How do you know where they all came from? Source?

Fenian Army · 12-09-2012 11:45am

If people like Laminations had had their way there never would have been a peace process.

VinLieger · 12-09-2012 12:02pm

Fenian Army wrote: »

If people like Laminations had had their way there never would have been a peace process.

Exactly the same can be said for the vast majority of those who call themselves "Republicans"

Fenian Army · 12-09-2012 12:04pm

VinLieger wrote: »

Exactly the same can be said for the vast majority of those who call themselves "Republicans"

lol, the vast majority of republicans support the peace process.

VinLieger · 12-09-2012 12:13pm

Fenian Army wrote: »

lol, the vast majority of republicans support the peace process.

Now they do, but you said there never would have been a peace process if people like laminations had there way and i can see where your coming from as some of his opinions are a bit exteme in how to deal with things but to take the high ground implying that republicans have always supported the peace process fully is complete garbage

Fenian Army · 12-09-2012 12:15pm

VinLieger wrote: »

Now they do, but you said there never would have been a peace process if people like laminations had there way and i can see where your coming from as some of his opinions are a bit exteme in how to deal with things but to take the high ground implying that republicans have always supported the peace process fully is complete garbage

It was republicans who were consistently excluded and censored. Amazing how when that changed progress was made isn't it?

Happyman42 · 12-09-2012 12:24pm

VinLieger wrote: »

Now they do, but you said there never would have been a peace process if people like laminations had there way and i can see where your coming from as some of his opinions are a bit exteme in how to deal with things but to take the high ground implying that republicans have always supported the peace process fully is complete garbage

The republicans who signed up to the agreement, have fervently supported the peace process when it accommodated fairly their aspirations and rights as equal citizens. They rejected all other attempts until those rights where enshrined in the agreement, because it would not have worked otherwise. The other parties to the agreement accepted that stance when they signed.
They also accepted their parts and the implicit blame for the conflict arising,(as did Mrs Winsdor when she dropped over for a visit) and the rights of others to 'aspire' to a united Ireland and British withdrawal.That others played a part in the conflict and that they are equally blameworthy is what people like Laminations have problems accepting. Just as they have problems with fairly apportioning reponsibility for solving the current rise in militant republicanism.

JustinDee · 12-09-2012 12:48pm

Fenian Army wrote: »

If people like Laminations had had their way there never would have been a peace process.

Childish surely?
You post as if we should all be grateful to the protagonists. Following on from the hijacking of civil rights movement, the democracy they allegedly sought was still right in front of their very noses in the first place.

Laminations · 12-09-2012 12:50pm

Fenian Army wrote: »

If people like Laminations had had their way there never would have been a peace process.

What?? I support the peace process, fully. RIRA and the dissidents do not support the peace process. Yet if I had my way there would be no peace process? Where there was violence and hate there is now a roadmap for reunification that was democratically approved. Since this roadmap (the GFA) now exists there is no longer any justification for violence and hate, especially if it is just criminal thuggery that in no way betters the lot of anyone in the north or south.

Laminations · 12-09-2012 12:51pm

VinLieger wrote: »

Now they do, but you said there never would have been a peace process if people like laminations had there way and i can see where your coming from as some of his opinions are a bit exteme in how to deal with things but to take the high ground implying that republicans have always supported the peace process fully is complete garbage

seriously... like what?

Laminations · 12-09-2012 12:54pm

Fenian Army wrote: »

It was republicans who were consistently excluded and censored. Amazing how when that changed progress was made isn't it?

There is an undertone to your posts that suggests you think groups like RIRA should be given a platform, should be 'listened to', that their cause should be vieweed as a legitimate valid concern? It sounds very much like you are a terrorist sympathiser.

Fenian Army · 12-09-2012 12:54pm

Laminations wrote: »

seriously... like what?

You sound like the hacks from the SINDO in the early nineties who slated Hume etc, you view things too black and white with no concern for the consequences (like an old poster, Liam Byrne, you'd like him). If we did things your way it would benefit the people who you are targeting.

Fenian Army · 12-09-2012 12:56pm

Laminations wrote: »

There is an undertone to your posts that suggests you think groups like RIRA should be given a platform, should be 'listened to', that their cause should be vieweed as a legitimate valid concern? It sounds very much like you are a terrorist sympathiser.

Of course they should be engaged with, ignoring them and censoring them isnt going to work, nor is interning or imprisoning them.

Saying that people should be talked to doesn't mean you agree with what they have to say ffs

Happyman42 · 12-09-2012 12:58pm

Laminations wrote: »

What?? I support the peace process, fully. RIRA and the dissidents do not support the peace process. Yet if I had my way there would be no peace process? Where there was violence and hate there is now a roadmap for reunification that was democratically approved. Since this roadmap (the GFA) now exists there is no longer any justification for violence and hate, especially if it is just criminal thuggery that in no way betters the lot of anyone in the north or south.

The origins of the conflict from 1969 are in the fact that a section of Irish people where left behind and left to suffer the discrimination meted out by the Unionist state. The GFA agreement largely dealt with that, the GFA agreement came about because violence forced ALL parties to the table. But others where left behind by the GFA, they DIDN'T sign up to it, and are resolutely refusing to recognise it. You can ignore them and hope they go away, but history has shown us that they won't and futile, useless condemnation and suppression wouldn't speed that up either.

VinLieger · 12-09-2012 12:59pm

Fenian Army wrote: »

If we did things your way it would benefit the people who you are targeting.

I dont normally agree with stuff you say but yeah @Laminations this is what i mean by extreme

Laminations · 12-09-2012 1:05pm

Fenian Army wrote: »

You sound like the hacks from the SINDO in the early nineties who slated Hume etc, you view things too black and white with no concern for the consequences (like an old poster, Liam Byrne, you'd like him). If we did things your way it would benefit the people who you are targeting.

Are you equating yourself or Happyman42 with John Hume? He was paramount in bringing about the Anglo-Irish Agreement. It was right to engage in dialogue between the governments of Ireland, Britain SF/IRA and various loyalist groups. There is now a democratically mandated agreement in place. RIRA and the other dissidents have no mandate and are engaged in common criminality that is far removed from the situation in the north and republicanism

Laminations · 12-09-2012 1:08pm

Fenian Army wrote: »

Of course they should be engaged with, ignoring them and censoring them isnt going to work, nor is interning or imprisoning them.

Saying that people should be talked to doesn't mean you agree with what they have to say ffs

We should not listen to every nut job who threatens to blow us up - especially when the issues have been largely resolved in a peaceful way. So Anders Behring Breivik should be listened to as well? Or does he need to get a gang together?

Laminations · 12-09-2012 1:10pm

Happyman42 wrote: »

But others where left behind by the GFA, they DIDN'T sign up to it, and are resolutely refusing to recognise it. You can ignore them and hope they go away, but history has shown us that they won't and futile, useless condemnation and suppression wouldn't speed that up either.

How specifically were they left behind? You make a mockery of democracy suggesting that tiny minorities should have some greater say just because they take up weapons.

Laminations · 12-09-2012 1:12pm

And as for engaging in dialogue, the Gardai made an agreement with these people, and they broke that agreement in spectacular fashion.

Happyman42 · 12-09-2012 1:16pm

Laminations wrote: »

How specifically were they left behind?

Have you any idea of what the conflict was about? Have you read the terms of the GFA and what it enshrines. Or are you one of those who brandish it as some sort of republican surrender?

JustinDee · 12-09-2012 2:15pm

Happyman42 wrote: »

The origins of the conflict from 1969 are in the fact that a section of Irish people where left behind and left to suffer the discrimination meted out by the Unionist state.

These origins and causes were swiped in the mid-70s by an underground organisation who sought via violence and incredibly (considering their activities) via a distorted form of Marxism, to jump on to a cause ultimately far out of reach.

Ash.J.Williams · 12-09-2012 2:21pm

THe IRA stopped representing the people they were set up to protect VERY early in their campaign.

Happyman42 · 12-09-2012 2:24pm

JustinDee wrote: »

These origins and causes were swiped in the mid-70s by an underground organisation who sought via violence and incredibly (considering their activities) via a distorted form of Marxism, to jump on to a cause ultimately far out of reach.

Who was at the table when it came to signing the agreement?
You can exclude their role if it suits your agenda, fact is, the underlying reason for the conflict was the British occupation and the discriminatory policies of their appointed governers...the Unionists. The British have admitted that that was wrong and that is why THEY (the British) were at the table, as where the Unionists. They have also admitted that they will withdraw when the majority so wish, because their presence as an occupying force was wrong in the first place.
There are those who believe that they should be driven out, you can ignore their existence if you wish.

SaoriseBiker · 12-09-2012 2:27pm

Laminations wrote: »

There is an undertone to your posts that suggests you think groups like RIRA should be given a platform, should be 'listened to', that their cause should be vieweed as a legitimate valid concern? It sounds very much like you are a terrorist sympathiser.

Judging by the posts here a few who put more priority on the Guards stopping people from dressing in military clothes than finding the killer of Alan Ryan says it all about their sympathy's and terrorism.

Ash.J.Williams · 12-09-2012 2:31pm

SaoriseBiker wrote: »

Judging by the posts here a few who put more priority on the Guards stopping people from dressing in military clothes than finding the killer of Alan Ryan says it all about their sympathy's and terrorism.

THe Gardai were checking for tax and insurance last night too....the feckers....should be all out trying to crack the alan ryan case.

SaoriseBiker · 12-09-2012 2:40pm

Ash.J.Williams wrote: »

THe Gardai were checking for tax and insurance last night too....the feckers....should be all out trying to crack the alan ryan case.

Whoever said or even inferred " all " Guards should be out cracking the AR case ? I would have thought that it pretty obvious that more effort should be put into finding a murderer than in getting all worked up by people in military clothes. Maybe the next time some reenactment society is dressed in military clothes the army and guards should be rushed to the scene to make possible arrests ?? :rolleyes:

Ash.J.Williams · 12-09-2012 2:43pm

SaoriseBiker wrote: »

Whoever said or even inferred " all " Guards should be out cracking the AR case ? I would have thought that it pretty obvious that more effort should be put into finding a murderer than in getting all worked up by people in military clothes. Maybe the next time some reenactment society is dressed in military clothes the army and guards should be rushed to the scene to make possible arrests ?? :rolleyes:

i'd say the opposite is true, except the bit about reanactments...that was just stupid.

JustinDee · 12-09-2012 2:47pm

Happyman42 wrote: »

Who was at the table when it came to signing the agreement?
You can exclude their role if it suits your agenda . . . etc . . . etc . . . blah

I haven't excluded anyone's role and I don't have an "agenda". Don't be so bloody sanctimonious. You don't steal a bat then thump someone with it unnecessarily, expecting thanks if you stop. That's what I'm saying.
I know what the root causes of the so-called Troubles are. What the provos et al abused these root causes for, had eff all to do with democracy, freedom and civil rights.
What this Ryan character and his cronies allegedly exist for has eff all to do with ANY of the above whatsoever.

SaoriseBiker · 12-09-2012 2:49pm

Ash.J.Williams wrote: »

i'd say the opposite is true, except the bit about reanactments...that was just stupid.

Grand. Next time there is a murder, you can start a thread " Gardai should be out looking for people in military clothes than looking for killer " thread.

SaoriseBiker · 12-09-2012 2:57pm

JustinDee wrote: »

I haven't excluded anyone's role and I don't have an "agenda". Don't be so bloody sanctimonious. You don't steal a bat then thump someone with it unnecessarily, expecting thanks if you stop. That's what I'm saying.
I know what the root causes of the so-called Troubles are. What the provos et al abused these root causes for, had eff all to do with democracy, freedom and civil rights.
What this Ryan character and his cronies allegedly exist for has eff all to do with ANY of the above whatsoever.

Exactly, " allegedly ". All the allegations against this man are agenda driven by Shatter and the security ' experts '

Sells papers, gets Shatter some headlines.

JustinDee · 12-09-2012 3:00pm

SaoriseBiker wrote: »

Exactly, " allegedly ". All the allegations against this man are agenda driven by Shatter and the security ' experts ' Sells papers, gets Shatter some headlines.

Oh ffs.
"Allegedly" refers to their (this fella Ryan's shower) claims to represent Ireland's best interests while ignoring the will of its inhabitants.
Paranoia about newspapers and an elected Minister's brief doesn't really do your argument much justice.

Happyman42 · 12-09-2012 3:09pm

JustinDee wrote: »

I know what the root causes of the so-called Troubles are. What the provos et al abused these root causes for, had eff all to do with democracy, freedom and civil rights.

So you are saying that those left behind at partition should just have put up with it?
Did they not have the right to the same aspirations as those who wished to see the British leave the south? Those same aspirations now enshrined as legitimate in the GFA?
The root cause of all political violence on this island is the British occupation of part of it.
You can, like generations of partitionists before, claim that those who oppose that are crimminals and thugs etc. etc. but sooner or later, like the Unionists and British and the Irish government you are going to have to find a way to accomoddate them or put up with more needless violence and deaths.

JustinDee · 12-09-2012 3:16pm

Happyman42 wrote: »

So you are saying that those left behind at partition should just have put up with it?

No, I'm not.
I'm saying that civil rights movement was the basis behind the troubles and not the united Ireland ideal. Sectarianism existed regardless and still does.

Happyman42 wrote: »

Did they not have the right to the same aspirations as those who wished to see the British leave the south? Those same aspirations now enshrined as legitimate in the GFA?
The root cause of all political violence on this island is the British occupation of part of it

Far too subjective and generalistic.
The root cause of all "political violence" is the individual opting for it.

Happyman42 wrote: »

You can, like generations of partitionists before . . .

Again, if you want to be taken seriously, quit the pigeon-holing.

Happyman42 · 12-09-2012 3:29pm

JustinDee wrote: »

No, I'm not.
I'm saying that civil rights movement was the basis behind the troubles and not the united Ireland ideal. Sectarianism existed regardless and still does.

The civil rights movement was a symtom of the underlying problem, the prescence of the British and the discriminatory policies of the Unionists.
It suits the argument put forward by partitionists or those who seek to absolve the British and Unionists of any blame to say that the Civil Rights movement was sidelined or that the IRA jumped on a bandwagon.
That doesn't explain the continued rise of Sinn Fein and the fall of the SDLP though, SF never had any qualms about stating that they sought to cure the island of the 'underlying' cause.

They are doing it all over again, attempting to depict these people as self interested thugs, can't you see that you are being led to the same old trough? It is not as if it is 'ancient' history, a lot of us lived through it.

Far too subjective and generalistic.
The root cause of all "political violence" is the individual opting for it.

Correct. What is your point?

Gardai (and Shatter) failed to enforce the law at RIRA funeral

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