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Gardai (and Shatter) failed to enforce the law at RIRA funeral

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24567…13

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    #32
    Ash.J.Williams
    Registered Users Posts: 20,929 ✭✭✭✭Ash.J.Williams


    by the way anybody who thinks firing a gun while dressed up in a costume, surrounded by a ring of steel holding up umbrellas so nobody can see is some sort of victory is very misguided.


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    #33
    Fenian Army
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,483 ✭✭✭Fenian Army


    The Brits knew better than to interfere with IRA funerals in the north (which admittedly tended to be much larger), just not worth it.

    A few guns were fired in the air, big whoop. Better than people getting hurt.

    There would have been a big riot if the Garda tried to interfere.


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    #34
    Laminations
    Registered Users Posts: 4,693 ✭✭✭Laminations


    Ash.J.Williams wrote: »
    by the way anybody who thinks firing a gun while dressed up in a costume, surrounded by a ring of steel holding up umbrellas so nobody can see is some sort of victory is very misguided.

    Very true, but those people are out there. Most people at that funeral are probably of that mindset


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    #35
    karma_
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,798 ✭✭✭karma_


    Laminations wrote: »
    I love the way you continue to refer to them as 'civilians' even after they have (in your hypothetical situation, which I'm not disputing would be a likely outcome had the gardai policed the funeral) assaulted or otherwise interfered with arresting officers. So in your eyes you can obstruct officers and still maintain the innocence of a civilian and incur the outrage of the populace if in any way interfered with?

    They could have outnumbered the crowd by limiting access to the area, they could have searched the crowd for weapons upon entry to the area (as they do with far larger events - and as they expect private security to do). We will only see more brazen defiance of the gardai now.

    PS - this is not the Troubles, nor are the gardai the much maligned RUC, they are the democratically sanctioned police force, tackling crime (you'd hope without fear or favour) and without any sectarian baggage.

    So, tell us, would you be happy now if the Gardai did confront these armed men and people had died as a result, as long as the law had been upheld?
    This is one of those occasions where a more subtle approach to the investigation pays dividends, not only that it keeps everyone SAFE!

    What you're suggesting is downright Dredd-esque.


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    #36
    Laminations
    Registered Users Posts: 4,693 ✭✭✭Laminations


    karma_ wrote: »
    So, tell us, would you be happy now if the Gardai did confront these armed men and people had died as a result, as long as the law had been upheld?
    This is one of those occasions where a more subtle approach to the investigation pays dividends, not only that it keeps everyone SAFE!

    What you're suggesting is downright Dredd-esque.

    No I wouldn't be happy.... with the people who killed the civilians. How is cordoning off an area, limiting access to the funeral and showing a large police and military presence (to remind people you are the keepers of the law) Dredd-esque? How is screening the crowd for weapons Dredd-esque? There are courses of action between watching from the sidelines and spraying the crowd with bullets.


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    #37
    snafuk35
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 833 ✭✭✭snafuk35


    Laminations wrote: »
    No I wouldn't be happy.... with the people who killed the civilians. How is cordoning off an area, limiting access to the funeral and showing a large police and military presence (to remind people you are the keepers of the law) Dredd-esque? How is screening the crowd for weapons Dredd-esque? There are courses of action between watching from the sidelines and spraying the crowd with bullets.

    If any of those measures had been taken, the crowd would have rioted. A riot situation might have escalated and resulted in fatalities.


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    #38
    karma_
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,798 ✭✭✭karma_


    Laminations wrote: »
    No I wouldn't be happy.... with the people who killed the civilians. How is cordoning off an area, limiting access to the funeral and showing a large police and military presence (to remind people you are the keepers of the law) Dredd-esque? How is screening the crowd for weapons Dredd-esque? There are courses of action between watching from the sidelines and spraying the crowd with bullets.

    Dredd-esque in that your suggestion proposes rigid application of the law in spite of consequence.

    There are other ways of bringing these men to justice which are preferential to forcing a confrontation with them or their supporters.


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    #39
    Ash.J.Williams
    Registered Users Posts: 20,929 ✭✭✭✭Ash.J.Williams


    Laminations wrote: »
    No I wouldn't be happy.... with the people who killed the civilians. How is cordoning off an area, limiting access to the funeral and showing a large police and military presence (to remind people you are the keepers of the law) Dredd-esque? How is screening the crowd for weapons Dredd-esque? There are courses of action between watching from the sidelines and spraying the crowd with bullets.
    the shots were fired outside the house....that may have been a little more dificult to predict and prevent


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    #40
    snafuk35
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 833 ✭✭✭snafuk35


    Laminations wrote: »
    Yes because the Gardai and army are so undisciplined they'd fire into a crowd. Or do you mean the few armed dissidents would open fire on the Irish army? And that the crowd would support them in showing such a total disregard for the safety of the other funeral goers?

    If gunshots were fired at the Gardaí and Army they would be forced to respond and fire at the gunman or gunmen shooting at them. Stray rounds would hit civilians if the gunman or gunmen were in the crowd.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CHY1l0XuzAI


    Something similar happened in South Africa.


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    #41
    Laminations
    Registered Users Posts: 4,693 ✭✭✭Laminations


    snafuk35 wrote: »
    If any of those measures had been taken, the crowd would have rioted. A riot situation might have escalated and resulted in fatalities.

    So the message is - if you police us, we will riot.
    karma_ wrote: »
    Dredd-esque in that your suggestion proposes rigid application of the law in spite of consequence.

    Using consequences as a deterrent is sometimes referred to as 'making threats'.
    There are other ways of bringing these men to justice which are preferential to forcing a confrontation with them or their supporters.

    Maybe if the Gardai prevented a few hundred supporters from entering the area it would've been easier. Maybe if political pressure was put on the church (if such a reversal of influence could happen) then the funeral wouldn't have been officiated by any priest in a populated working class area? In light of the criticism of MCD over failure to preempt violence at the Phoenix Park concert, do you think it was wise for the Gardai / church to allow such an incendiary event in that location?


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    #42
    TheChizler
    Registered Users Posts: 9,426 ✭✭✭TheChizler


    Laminations wrote: »
    snafuk35 wrote: »
    If any of those measures had been taken, the crowd would have rioted. A riot situation might have escalated and resulted in fatalities.

    So the message is - if you police us, we will riot.
    karma_ wrote: »
    Dredd-esque in that your suggestion proposes rigid application of the law in spite of consequence.

    Using consequences as a deterrent is sometimes referred to as 'making threats'.
    There are other ways of bringing these men to justice which are preferential to forcing a confrontation with them or their supporters.

    Maybe if the Gardai prevented a few hundred supporters from entering the area it would've been easier. Maybe if political pressure was put on the church (if such a reversal of influence could happen) then the funeral wouldn't have been officiated by any priest in a populated working class area? In light of the criticism of MCD over failure to preempt violence at the Phoenix Park concert, do you think it was wise for the Gardai / church to allow such an incendiary event in that location?
    What laws were broken at the funeral itself?


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    #43
    karma_
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,798 ✭✭✭karma_


    Laminations wrote: »
    So the message is - if you police us, we will riot.



    Using consequences as a deterrent is sometimes referred to as 'making threats'.



    Maybe if the Gardai prevented a few hundred supporters from entering the area it would've been easier. Maybe if political pressure was put on the church (if such a reversal of influence could happen) then the funeral wouldn't have been officiated by any priest in a populated working class area? In light of the criticism of MCD over failure to preempt violence at the Phoenix Park concert, do you think it was wise for the Gardai / church to allow such an incendiary event in that location?

    I see a lot of 'maybes' and 'what ifs' and not a lot of substance.


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    #44
    Dubhlinner
    Registered Users Posts: 456 ✭✭Dubhlinner


    Laminations wrote: »
    I love the way you continue to refer to them as 'civilians' even after they have (in your hypothetical situation, which I'm not disputing would be a likely outcome had the gardai policed the funeral) assaulted or otherwise interfered with arresting officers. So in your eyes you can obstruct officers and still maintain the innocence of a civilian and incur the outrage of the populace if in any way interfered with?

    Was just talking pragmatically. If those guys blocked police and the end result was a firefight & dead or injured people the gardai would be painted as murdering unarmed civilians. I touched on this in my previous post when I said "These dead civillians lead to huge recruitment for 32csm/RIRA even if they die through their own actions"
    They could have outnumbered the crowd by limiting access to the area, they could have searched the crowd for weapons upon entry to the area (as they do with far larger events - and as they expect private security to do). We will only see more brazen defiance of the gardai now.

    Hard to do at an event as sensitive as a funeral. You'd have hundreds of people refusing to be searched. Some manipulating the law others because they genuinely don't want to be harassed when they're grieving.

    Its a really tough one to call. paramilitaries know this and take advantage
    PS - this is not the Troubles, nor are the gardai the much maligned RUC, they are the democratically sanctioned police force, tackling crime (you'd hope without fear or favour) and without any sectarian baggage.

    The RUC weren't as different to the garda as official history makes out.

    You'll also note the psni allow(or rather dont prevent) firing squads at IRA funerals. Besides the point though - the reason they weren't stopped is the RUC knew forcing them to be stopped wasn't worth the fall out.

    I'm not sure what I can say to convince you. I think a more heavy handed approach would have played into the hands of 32csm/RIRA so I'm glad it wasn't taken.


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    #45
    Hedgemeister
    Closed Accounts Posts: 245 ✭✭Hedgemeister


    Yesterday, whether they realise it or not, was a big test for the Gardai...the dipping of Republican toes in the water to see how they would react, and how much support parading masked gunmen would get in our capital city. In the run-up to the 1916 centenary we'll see a lot more of this stuff I reckon, because the Gardai failed their test, and, far from making 'a wise decision' it appears to some that our police force were intimitated, and backed down.

    I can't think of any (civilised) capital city in the world where a proper police force would allow a gang of armed and masked wannabee soldiers to parade, let alone discharge weapons in public, and in daylight !


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    #46
    TheChizler
    Registered Users Posts: 9,426 ✭✭✭TheChizler


    Hedgemeister wrote: »
    Yesterday, whether they realise it or not, was a big test for the Gardai...the dipping of Republican toes in the water to see how they would react, and how much support parading masked gunmen would get in our capital city. In the run-up to the 1916 centenary we'll see a lot more of this stuff I reckon, because the Gardai failed their test, and, far from making 'a wise decision' it appears to some that our police force were intimitated, and backed down.

    I can't think of any (civilised) capital city in the world where a proper police force would allow a gang of armed and masked wannabee soldiers to parade, let alone discharge weapons in public, and in daylight !
    What test did they fail?


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    #47
    Laminations
    Registered Users Posts: 4,693 ✭✭✭Laminations


    Agree with that all. Just to make clear though, I don't think their inaction was a result of intimidation, it was a tactical decision, the wrong one in my (completely inexpert observer) opinion that will be seen by some groups as a push of the boundaries and the gardai being afraid to act.


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    #48
    Goro
    Closed Accounts Posts: 247 ✭✭Goro


    A few Irish Defence Force Snipers on the nearby shopping centre could have sorted out a few problems for us and they would have been well within their rights to do it.


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    #49
    TheChizler
    Registered Users Posts: 9,426 ✭✭✭TheChizler


    Goro wrote: »
    Terrorists should not be allowed to fire illegal guns in a public place.

    A few Irish Defence Force Snipers on the nearby shopping centre could have sorted out a few problems for us and they would have been well within their rights to do it.
    Weren't the guns fired at his house, not the graveyard?


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    #50
    Goro
    Closed Accounts Posts: 247 ✭✭Goro


    TheChizler wrote: »
    Weren't the guns fired at his house, not the graveyard?

    My mistake. But the point remains, a few snipers should have been watching this. They knew it was going to happen.

    Terrorists are terrorists and when they start firing off guns in public places it's time for the state to start applying lethal force.


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    #51
    Laminations
    Registered Users Posts: 4,693 ✭✭✭Laminations


    Goro wrote: »
    A few Irish Defence Force Snipers on the nearby shopping centre could have sorted out a few problems for us and they would have been well within their rights to do it.

    Eh no. That is too Dredd-esque.


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    #52
    TheChizler
    Registered Users Posts: 9,426 ✭✭✭TheChizler


    Goro wrote: »
    TheChizler wrote: »
    Weren't the guns fired at his house, not the graveyard?

    My mistake. But the point remains, a few snipers should have been watching this. They knew it was going to happen.

    Terrorists are terrorists and when they start firing off guns in public places it's time for the state to start applying lethal force.
    Possibly my mistake! There's a lot of conflicting reports out there.


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    #53
    Laminations
    Registered Users Posts: 4,693 ✭✭✭Laminations


    I'd also take issue with the media and their portrayal of the criminal underworld and dissident republicans. Actions like what happened at this funeral should be lambasted in the press. Too often the media dub these criminal figures with 'hard sounding' nicknames and glamourise or mystify their wicked lives. 'The Beast' was this fellas name, a right goer in the sack according to a Sunday World article... They should be referred to by humiliating monikers, and disgraceful events like this funeral should be reported as 'a mickey mouse parade by fat masked men, likely involved in gangland criminality, and too dim to effect change by any other way than violence' rather than a 'dissident republican show of strength'.

    They may be criticised by certain media but they are not ridiculed enough.


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    #54
    Goro
    Closed Accounts Posts: 247 ✭✭Goro


    Laminations wrote: »
    Eh no. That is too Dredd-esque.

    Ah sure we will just let the nice masked terrorists shoot their guns anywhere they want. Wouldn't want to trouble the Garda or the defense forces with such petty things as masked terrorist organizations parading around a housing estate shooting live rounds.


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    #55
    ShatterResistant
    Registered Users Posts: 214 ✭✭ShatterResistant


    martomcg wrote: »
    I agree the Gardai did the right thing by not getting involved. Polititions now bashing them isnt fair.

    Which politicians were bashing them? Minister Alan Shatter defended their decision.


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    #56
    Laminations
    Registered Users Posts: 4,693 ✭✭✭Laminations


    Goro wrote: »
    Ah sure we will just let the nice masked terrorists shoot their guns anywhere they want.

    Crowd control doesn't have to involve snipers. If the gardai want to make sure no guns get into an area they are well capable of doing so. If the gardai are to argue a concert shouldn't be allowed, where a small element are thuggish then they should've taken steps to intervene in a dissident republican funeral where almost everyone is thuggish.


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    #57
    Goro
    Closed Accounts Posts: 247 ✭✭Goro


    Laminations wrote: »
    Crowd control doesn't have to involve snipers. If the gardai want to make sure no guns get into an area they are well capable of doing so. If the gardai are to argue a concert shouldn't be allowed, where a small element are thuggish then they should've taken steps to intervene in a dissident republican funeral where almost everyone is thuggish.

    I do agree with you, and I am by no means an authority on the correct methods.

    I am just appalled that they let it go off like this.

    Surely the state could have mustered something together. Even if it was just crowd control.


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    #58
    karma_
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,798 ✭✭✭karma_


    Goro wrote: »
    I do agree with you, and I am by no means an authority on the correct methods.

    I am just appalled that they let it go off like this.

    Surely the state could have mustered something together. Even if it was just crowd control.

    It's already been pointed out in this thread, the Gardai are following on from the experience of the PSNI and the RUC before them in how to deal with these situations, and they certainly have far more experience in matters of this nature. Thankfully saner heads were in charge of the policing for this, rather than the quasi-fascistic garbage being proposed in this thread.


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    #59
    Goro
    Closed Accounts Posts: 247 ✭✭Goro


    karma_ wrote: »
    It's already been pointed out in this thread, the Gardai are following on from the experience of the PSNI and the RUC before them in how to deal with these situations, and they certainly have far more experience in matters of this nature. Thankfully saner heads were in charge of the policing for this, rather than the quasi-fascistic garbage being proposed in this thread.

    The Garda are not the PSNI and clearly the PSNI's methods don't work up North.

    If the PSNI put out an announcement that they would be applying deadly force in future sectarian rioting than I guarantee you riots would become a very rare thing indeed.


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    #60
    SocSocPol
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,043 ✭✭✭SocSocPol


    A Primal Nut wrote: »
    Surely the fact that it went off peacefully in the end showed that the Gardai acted responsibly.

    If the Gardai did move in; then who knows what kind of chaos we'd be talking about here, and no doubt the same people would be complaining that the gardai were heavy-handed.

    You have to pick your battles in life; the Gardai made a decision to stand back and it worked.
    Strange how anyone could describe a bunch of masked thugs firing shots in a residential area as "peaceful".


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    #61
    karma_
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,798 ✭✭✭karma_


    Goro wrote: »
    The Garda are not the PSNI and clearly the PSNI's methods don't work up North.

    If the PSNI put out an announcement that they would be applying deadly force in future sectarian rioting than I guarantee you riots would become a very rare thing indeed.

    That is a fairly extreme viewpoint you have there.


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