DART+ (DART Expansion)

Last Stop · 17-11-2019 5:48pm

lawred2 wrote: »

No. That's not what I meant. I would prefer if we saw the commencement of a city wide underground not in CIE ownership or management and which would retire or take the pressure off the dart and/or possibly leave those tracks to inter city and commuter rail.

Why would you waste the potential of the existing network. Being underground isn’t going to make it any faster.

But hey failing that, if they can four track the northern line into the bottleneck that is Connolly without causing compete meltdown then I'll be happy to see that too.

The plans include a reconfiguration of Connolly and a significant upgrade of docklands. Long term obviously northern line trains would bypass Connolly all together!

But if that's never going to happen I'd prefer to see the money spent getting started on an underground

I do not understand what you mean by “get started” on an underground line. Unlike quad tracking, you can’t build an underground line in pieces. From the rumours, it sounds like they have already shortened DU to end at Heuston but you can’t shorten it anymore. Even with that it’s still going to cost over 1bn. Unless they have the full budget then they can’t do much. In the meantime they could easily pull together some money to do a phase 1 of quad tracking.

murphaph · 17-11-2019 9:05pm

Underground lines are built in stages all the time.

ricimaki · 17-11-2019 9:26pm

murphaph wrote: »

Underground lines systems are built in stages all the time.

Lines do get extended, but its very rare a full tunnel gets added onto. More often than not, the line ends on the surface/elevated, which is much easier to extend.

It's nearly always cheaper to start a new underground route, then extend a tunnel that's in full operation

murphaph · 17-11-2019 9:36pm

ricimaki wrote: »

Lines do get extended, but its very rare a full tunnel gets added onto. More often than not, the line ends on the surface/elevated, which is much easier to extend.

It's nearly always cheaper to start a new underground route, then extend a tunnel that's in full operation

Off the top of my head I can cite the U5 extension in Berlin currently under construction and the U7 also in Berlin which was gradually extended at both ends all underground. Also the U1 in Munich which only went to Westfriedhof when I first visited the city about 20 years ago but was being extended at the time, underground, towards its current western terminus.

Grandeeod · 17-11-2019 11:32pm

Ireland trains wrote: »

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.independent.ie/business/irish/keeping-irish-rail-on-the-right-track-38698743.html
They mention examining the posibility of 4 tracks to mallahide

I just read that article and its no different to those written or IE CEO quoted rubbish/spin from 17 years ago. Seriously lads! Utter tripe. Not trolling. Genuinely concerned, but its downright baloney.

DU to end at Heuston to save money - Thats cica 2007 and then changed to surface beyond Inchicore and now back to Heuston. (I'm referring to a post from someone else)

The four tracking on the Northern line?? I agree that its possible in small sections, but no way is it possible in entirety to Malahide.

Its all so similar to the same old guff spouted years and years ago.

Last Stop · 17-11-2019 11:43pm

murphaph wrote: »

Off the top of my head I can cite the U5 extension in Berlin currently under construction and the U7 also in Berlin which was gradually extended at both ends all underground. Also the U1 in Munich which only went to Westfriedhof when I first visited the city about 20 years ago but was being extended at the time, underground, towards its current western terminus.

While I appreciate what you’re saying, you’re misinterpreting my comment. All of lines you have quoted may have been added to over time but they were originally built as a single phase with a chosen start and end point.
The point I was making is that the poster was suggesting that we start an underground and keep going until the money runs out. That is not the same as building a line in stages. Often TBMs do get buried but they never stop and restart a TBM to keep going, it’s virtually impossible given the spoil comes back through the tunnelled section.

DU cannot be built in phases. To do so would offer minimal benefit to the system. If we do not have the money to do the job fully, we are better spending the money on other projects (like quad tracking the northern line or DART expansion). If anything this strengthens the case for DU as it increases the pressure on Connolly and the loopline which will build to a stage where a new Liffey crossing is required.

lawred2 · 17-11-2019 11:54pm

Last Stop wrote: »

While I appreciate what you’re saying, you’re misinterpreting my comment. All of lines you have quoted may have been added to over time but they were originally built as a single phase with a chosen start and end point.
The point I was making is that the poster was suggesting that we start an underground and keep going until the money runs out. That is not the same as building a line in stages. Often TBMs do get buried but they never stop and restart a TBM to keep going, it’s virtually impossible given the spoil comes back through the tunnelled section.

DU cannot be built in phases. To do so would offer minimal benefit to the system. If we do not have the money to do the job fully, we are better spending the money on other projects (like quad tracking the northern line or DART expansion). If anything this strengthens the case for DU as it increases the pressure on Connolly and the loopline which will build to a stage where a new Liffey crossing is required.

No I wasn't.

Last Stop · 18-11-2019 12:04am

lawred2 wrote: »

No I wasn't.

What were you suggesting then by “getting started on an underground”? There is no single phase of any underground project that could be built for the money we’re talking about for the northern line

MrAbyss · 20-11-2019 7:52pm

For me one of the biggest problems with CIE/Irish Rail over the years and right up to this guy, is that it is Engineer-driven and not Customer Service driven. Hence the over reliance on New Gear to solve issues and a complete lack of imaginative creative thinking. The Phoenix Park Tunnel being a prime example of their inability to create solutions with what they have now, rather than waiting for astronomical sums of cash for new machines and kit replacement. They would have been perfectly contented to wall up the PPT portals on both ends and wait for the DartUnderground.

There are loads of imaginative things they could do now without waiting for billions. Off the top of my head:

A few passing loops on the Northern line
Terminate Howth DART at Howth Junction
Have Sligo Services stop at Broombridge
Open a Station on the PPT line at Cabra
Terminate Wexford trains at Bray.
Reopen the station at North Wall as stage one of the DART Underground.

Nope. They do nothing until gazillions of money is available.

Sam Russell · 20-11-2019 9:48pm

MrAbyss wrote: »

For me one of the biggest problems with CIE/Irish Rail over the years and right up to this guy, is that it is Engineer-driven and not Customer Service driven. Hence the over reliance on New Gear to solve issues and a complete lack of imaginative creative thinking. The Phoenix Park Tunnel being a prime example of their inability to create solutions with what they have now, rather than waiting for astronomical sums of cash for new machines and kit replacement. They would have been perfectly contented to wall up the PPT portals on both ends and wait for the DartUnderground.

There are loads of imaginative things they could do now without waiting for billions. Off the top of my head:

A few passing loops on the Northern line

Particularly at Clongriffin, and at Clontarf.

Terminate Howth DART at Howth Junction

Running time 9 mins - a bit tight for a 10 min service. Maybe they could speed it up a bit.

Have Sligo Services stop at Broombridge
Open a Station on the PPT line at Cabra

Agree.

Terminate Wexford trains at Bray.

This could increase the number services to Wexford by 50% or more.

Reopen the station at North Wall as stage one of the DART Underground.

Nope. They do nothing until gazillions of money is available.

They should not have scrapped the Mk IV trains. They would be handy now.

They should run 4 coach Darts off peak. They are less than 30% full at most. They could terminate some Dart trains at DL.

With a 10 min Dart service, it makes no sense to run diesel commuters south of GCD. They just trundle along waiting behind the Dart ahead of them.

Grandeeod · 20-11-2019 10:30pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

Particularly at Clongriffin, and at Clontarf.

Running time 9 mins - a bit tight for a 10 min service. Maybe they could speed it up a bit.

Agree.

This could increase the number services to Wexford by 50% or more.

They should not have scrapped the Mk IV trains. They would be handy now.

They should run 4 coach Darts off peak. They are less than 30% full at most. They could terminate some Dart trains at DL.

With a 10 min Dart service, it makes no sense to run diesel commuters south of GCD. They just trundle along waiting behind the Dart ahead of them.

Similar to stuff talked about 17 years ago.:rolleyes:

On and on it will go.

Grandeeod · 20-11-2019 10:35pm

MrAbyss wrote: »

For me one of the biggest problems with CIE/Irish Rail over the years and right up to this guy, is that it is Engineer-driven and not Customer Service driven. Hence the over reliance on New Gear to solve issues and a complete lack of imaginative creative thinking. The Phoenix Park Tunnel being a prime example of their inability to create solutions with what they have now, rather than waiting for astronomical sums of cash for new machines and kit replacement. They would have been perfectly contented to wall up the PPT portals on both ends and wait for the DartUnderground.

There are loads of imaginative things they could do now without waiting for billions. Off the top of my head:

A few passing loops on the Northern line
Terminate Howth DART at Howth Junction
Have Sligo Services stop at Broombridge
Open a Station on the PPT line at Cabra
Terminate Wexford trains at Bray.
Reopen the station at North Wall as stage one of the DART Underground.

Nope. They do nothing until gazillions of money is available.

As has always been the case the dude in charge is from within the company or like Dick Fearn from a "railway" background. We need a marketing/business person at the helm and a reinvention of the relationship with the Government. All been said before. The same crap continues. Nothing changes and hasn't EVER!

MrAbyss · 21-11-2019 6:20pm

"The best example is the new Phoenix Park tunnel service to Grand Canal Dock. It started with a small number of peak-time services and we didn't advertise it so we could iron out any glitches first. But it was a victim of its own success. To this day we haven't advertised it and within months the trains were full. "

Duh!

spacetweek · 21-11-2019 10:49pm

MrAbyss wrote: »

Duh!

Who'd have thought a service that brings people on the Kildare line all the way into the city centre (not just Heuston) would be popular!

Marcusm · 22-11-2019 11:32am

ricimaki wrote: »

Lines do get extended, but its very rare a full tunnel gets added onto. More often than not, the line ends on the surface/elevated, which is much easier to extend.

It's nearly always cheaper to start a new underground route, then extend a tunnel that's in full operation

The Jubilee Line is probably proof of your contention. The extension out via south then east London was plagued with problems during construction and for 10 years afterwards because of the cobbled together signalling arrangements. Hard to believe it is 20 years since it opened. I feel old!

MrAbyss · 22-11-2019 3:38pm

spacetweek wrote: »

Who'd have thought a service that brings people on the Kildare line all the way into the city centre (not just Heuston) would be popular!

at the time people were saying that opening the PPT tunnel would damage the case for the Interconnector. The reverse was true. It's instant success was the best advertisement for direct rail services ever. People want this.

again a company populated by institutionalized dullards waiting for big government money.

MrAbyss · 22-11-2019 3:45pm

ricimaki wrote: »

Lines do get extended, but its very rare a full tunnel gets added onto. More often than not, the line ends on the surface/elevated, which is much easier to extend.

It's nearly always cheaper to start a new underground route, then extend a tunnel that's in full operation

See this is the same excuse used not to open the PPT. The usual 'all or nothing' mindset within CIE.

If the station at the North Wall was reopened - as stage one of the DARTUnderground - with a pedestrian bridge across the river to the business district on the south side, you just watch it packed from day one. If it had four platforms it would have the potential to be the main commuter station for Dublin in no time. Then the south-side would want direct access to it and the tunnel from Inchicore becomes as case of 'when' and not 'if'. Some of us always saw the potential of the PPT to be the stage one selling point for the Interconnector. Reopening North Wall station is stage two. This being Ireland there is not a rail transport Santa. You have to fight a progressive war of attrition to get things done.

The more I think of this station at North Wall the more I see it is the PPT part two and the start of the DARTUnderground proper. Shame Ireland has no rail lobby to hammer this idea out day and night among the management and employees in the Docklands. Point to the red brick building across the river and say ' that's a train station that can get you home before 7PM if it is reopened with a pedestrian bridge from your office to it...'

end of the road · 22-11-2019 4:02pm

MrAbyss wrote: »

at the time people were saying that opening the PPT tunnel would damage the case for the Interconnector. The reverse was true. It's instant success was the best advertisement for direct rail services ever. People want this.

when they said damage the case, they meant the politicians would use it as an excuse not to build DU, which to be fair they will probably do so.
it wasn't a valid reason against reopening it however, and people need to make DU as with any other public transport, an election issue if they really want it. that is the only way forward.

SeanW · 22-11-2019 6:08pm

MrAbyss wrote: »

at the time people were saying that opening the PPT tunnel would damage the case for the Interconnector. The reverse was true. It's instant success was the best advertisement for direct rail services ever. People want this.

To fair, the concern IIRC was that the PPT would be viewed as an alternative, not a precursor to the Dart U (then called the Interconnector). And it looks like that is exactly what has happened.

Yes, the Kildare trains have to spend >30 minutes ambling around the city via the tunnel and Drumcondra line, and in so doing add to serious congestion problems on the loop line, but so far as our political class is concerned, it's good enough.

Grandeeod · 22-11-2019 9:13pm

end of the road wrote: »

when they said damage the case, they meant the politicians would use it as an excuse not to build DU, which to be fair they will probably do so.
it wasn't a valid reason against reopening it however, and people need to make DU as with any other public transport, an election issue if they really want it. that is the only way forward.

SeanW wrote: »

To fair, the concern IIRC was that the PPT would be viewed as an alternative, not a precursor to the Dart U (then called the Interconnector). And it looks like that is exactly what has happened.

Yes, the Kildare trains have to spend >30 minutes ambling around the city via the tunnel and Drumcondra line, and in so doing add to serious congestion problems on the loop line, but so far as our political class is concerned, it's good enough.

The FF lead Government in 2003 ignored the use of the PPT and IE were happy to go along on the basis of getting DU/Interconnector. But the PPT route was an absolutely decent project back then.

FG in opposition embraced the PPT proposals and used it as ammo against the then Government on the basis of money. They basically used it to dethrone the DU project.

FG in Government reopened the PPT route, but consigned DU to the bin. The PPT in conjunction with DU would be a great asset for Dublin.

Conclusion and from first hand experience, politicians don't do rail transport in Dublin and never will. It's all about making their own political stamp on things without actually doing anything. The new Metro link plan under this FG lead Government, involves a routing via Phisboro and a new interchange with PPT/Maynooth lines. That was an idea floated when FG were in opposition and MN was proposed to run through the area. The O'Reilly report covered it in the mid noughties.

Your current FG lead Government have adopted a plan as follows. Extend DART, but without DU. Use the PPT route. Move the Metro route back to Phisboro as originally proposed and build an interchange there. (Originally there was no interchange there and then MN was routed via Drumcondra station.)

Without DU, its all rather shabby.

Grandeeod · 22-11-2019 9:54pm

As per my last post we are probably back in 2006. But hey some don't like the whole reinvent the wheel scenario.

AAAAAAAAA · 25-11-2019 12:21pm

MrAbyss wrote: »

See this is the same excuse used not to open the PPT. The usual 'all or nothing' mindset within CIE.

This is a pretty absurd thing to claim of CIE since they haven't received the funding to construct a single new stretch of railway within the lifetime of the state. They have the money to patch a fraction of a Victorian system up to modern standards, and it is simply pathetic compared to neighbouring countries.

tallaghtfornia · 25-11-2019 5:53pm

AAAAAAAAA wrote: »

This is a pretty absurd thing to claim of CIE since they haven't received the funding to construct a single new stretch of railway within the lifetime of the state. They have the money to patch a fraction of a Victorian system up to modern standards, and it is simply pathetic compared to neighboring countries.

Was thinking the same myself the other day with the exception of the LUAS and re-laying some railways that where ripped up - there has not been a single new railway route laid since the foundation of the state all we have is upgraded Victorian Railway lines.

I honestly think that this government like previous have no interest in public transport they only have an interest in roads so they can have more car drivers to extract taxes & tolls from.

Idbatterim · 25-11-2019 10:59pm

lads is there anything to be said for another public consultation?

Idbatterim · 25-11-2019 11:04pm

They are such useless ***** here, honestly, I think it could take years more before such carnage takes place with luas overcrowding etc , when they no longer have their bull**** "extra capacity coming on line" spiel. That they will have to build it...

Lets just hope all the new development along it, totally overwhelms the pathetic luas line and forces the issue, because I think dublin metro is a bloody long shot, I'm just waiting for the excuse to can it, even if a recession doesnt come along! Here is what will happen in that case, continued growth, "oh the scheme isnt high enough capacity" we are going to now make it a dart line and yes we will rip up the entire luas tracks for irish rail gauge, think how many decades of kicking the can down the road that would buy them :rolleyes::mad:

as for the funding, Irish rail have sites in dublin that must be worth a fortune, they should be told by central government, to start applying for very high density schemes, which solves another problem and going forward, their funding will be cut... Its not on anymore, a third world service, looking for endless taxpayer handouts etc, use no ingenuity, vision etc. Just put the hand out time and time again! I bet you the salaries and pensions in Irish rail are world class though!

cgcsb · 25-11-2019 11:31pm

Public transport in Ireland actually gets the lowest rate of subsidy in Europe and coincidentally offers the 4th or 5th worst service. Metrolink is already dead, the state has over committed it's self on capital expenditure. The children's hospital and rural broadband schemes are blank cheques and there a significant number of road projects in the pipeline. Metrolink won't get a look in

Idbatterim · 25-11-2019 11:41pm

cgcsb wrote: »

Public transport in Ireland actually gets the lowest rate of subsidy in Europe and coincidentally offers the 4th or 5th worst service. Metrolink is already dead, the state has over committed it's self on capital expenditure. The children's hospital and rural broadband schemes are blank cheques and there a significant number of road projects in the pipeline. Metrolink won't get a look in

no wonder the finglas luas is being spoken off, the dublin metro replacement :rolleyes: they can put in a greenway from the end of the line to the airport, very cheap and environmentally friendly!

marno21 · 26-11-2019 12:18am

cgcsb wrote: »

Public transport in Ireland actually gets the lowest rate of subsidy in Europe and coincidentally offers the 4th or 5th worst service. Metrolink is already dead, the state has over committed it's self on capital expenditure. The children's hospital and rural broadband schemes are blank cheques and there a significant number of road projects in the pipeline. Metrolink won't get a look in

Many of those road projects can't start for at least 6-7 years due to them being in the early stages of planning and the incredibly slow process they involve themselves in

tallaghtfornia · 26-11-2019 12:53am

It’s hard to believe with the growth that’s in This country at the moment that there is not one single major transport infrastructure project going on.
The M50 and current rail infrastructure is at breaking point and this useless government could not give a toss only talk about projects.
I have no faith in FF or FG to deliver anything only talk

Idbatterim · 26-11-2019 1:04am

tallaghtfornia wrote: »

It’s hard to believe with the growth that’s in This country at the moment that there is not one single major transport infrastructure project going on.
The M50 and current rail infrastructure is at breaking point and this useless government could not give a toss only talk about projects.
I have no faith in FF or FG to deliver anything only talk

patience! sure we are only several years into the most recent boom!

DART+ (DART Expansion)

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