Cross on Carauntoohill had been cut down

Rubberchikken · 22-11-2014 5:27pm

who, in their right minds would carry an angle grinder up a mountain to cut down a metal cross?
do the authorities actually know it was cut down?

let's not jump to conclusions.

Squeedily Spooch · 22-11-2014 5:28pm

SpaceTime wrote: »

I'd just add if it was just a structural flaw, it's a very good thing it did fall down uneventfully as it could have come crashing down on tourists / pilgrims!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IlZQhNlwc7U

Couldn't resist

micar · 22-11-2014 5:29pm

it's terrible thing to happen but It can just be welded back.

SpaceTime · 22-11-2014 5:32pm

micar wrote: »

it's terrible thing to happen but It can just be welded back.

That wouldn't be a good idea.

If it's going back, it would want to done to a decent structural engineering standard. Realistically, you're talking about needing the same kind of structure as a small wind turbine base to ensure it doesn't come crashing down again.

I'm surprised it wasn't guyed like a transmission mast to reduce movement.

Saipanne · 22-11-2014 5:32pm

madcabbage wrote: »

I think that's up to individuals to decide what they think, I see it as a mark for those who've died regardless of their faith. You want to play the non-Christian card that's fine but keep me out of it please.

The individuals that matter are dead, in this example.

If given the choice, would you "see it" that non Christians get Christian funeral ceremonies? Or some kind of Christian blessing, despite them spending their lives avoiding it?

Why impose your philosophies on dead people who never wanted your proselytising in life?

Do you not see how wrong and disrespectful your imposing of your beliefs is here?

The Black Oil · 22-11-2014 5:33pm

Will it still be a Class 2 when they remove it?

FunLover18 · 22-11-2014 5:34pm

I never knew there was a cross up there, but if i had ever climbed it to find out I would have been pretty disappointed. There should be know need for it, people should be able to climb a mountain without being reminded about religion.

It's pure vandalism but I'll get over it (the vandalism, not the mountain).

SpaceTime · 22-11-2014 5:36pm

To be honest, I don't particularly care if it's up or not. I don't think it's the state's job to be putting up crosses on public land and prioritising one particular religious outlook in a society that supposedly grants religious freedom in 2014, but Ireland being Ireland it'll probably go back up anyway.

However, if it does go up, I would like to see a properly sound structure and not something that could come tumbling down on an unsuspecting hiker or that will do environmental damage on a very sensitive area of mountain top when it comes to laying foundations and getting construction equipment into place.

Just put the structure into a museum as a representation of how Ireland was in 1970 whatever year it went up along with some photos of the construction. It's an interesting piece of social history.

mcmoustache · 22-11-2014 5:36pm

SpaceTime wrote: »

I'm not convinced it was cut.

Physical evidence:

1. That image shows no debris near the end of the mast. There would be some degree of scattering of debris and given the ground / rocks it would be very hard to camouflage.

2. The cut is very close to the ground. If you were using an angle grinder, I would assume cutting that tight to the ground, near loose rock and concrete would be quite difficult. It would be easier to just cut it further up the mast. So, I can only assume these were very neat vandals ...

3. Someone would have had to carry significantly heavy equipment up a mountain trail. That's quite an effort!

4. That site has a lot of visitors, so it would be hard for someone to go completely unnoticed.
My theory:

The mast appears to be built from some kind of mild steel and it's, rather unusually for a tall mast, square.

Metal fatigue can produce some very sharp breaks that will often look like something's been cut. Sometimes the metal can just fracture along a manufacturing flaw or a weak point in the structure and produce an almost perfect snap like that.

When you look at the cross:

1) Square structure (fundamentally weaker than a round one).
2) Wind load on top of a mountain is high and it looks to have sheered at the only point it cannot move (just above the concrete base).
3) The cross has a large cross bar which would complicate the wind load by causing twisting loads (torque) and also vibrations that would be quite hard to model.
4) The structure is 40 years old and looks quite rusty so may be weak anyway.
5) According to the article it's built from welded segments, not a single piece. So that may have created complications too.
6) It's in a location with huge and constant wind exposure.

I wouldn't jump to the conclusion that this is vandalism without doing a full analysis of the metal.
I've seen metal beams snap like that before and it can look remarkably like a cut even though it's just fatigue.

I think this may simply be a case of structural engineering being not up to scratch for the location.

So, I guess that what you're trying to say is that God did it? If this is true, and God did indeed do this, then perhaps it may be His way of letting us know that He's not too pleased with implements of torture and execution being placed on the tops of the glorious mountains that he created.

Let's not forget that this type of device was used to kill His only son - that fact combined with the fact that He's sometimes a bit overly sensitive about things would suggest that His smiting of the cross was to be expected.

This is the most likely explanation, imho.

SpaceTime · 22-11-2014 5:37pm

mcmoustache wrote: »

So, I guess that what you're trying to say is that God did it? If this is true, and God did indeed do this, then perhaps it may be His way of letting us know that He's not too pleased with implements of torture and execution being placed on the tops of the glorious mountains that he created.

Let's not forget that this type of device was used to kill His only son - that fact combined with the fact that He's sometimes a bit overly sensitive about things would suggest that His smiting of the cross was to be expected.

This is the most likely explanation, imho.

Emm.. no, I was just trying to say it was metal fatigue. We have this thing called 'science' nowadays that explain the reasons for such things.

One eyed Jack · 22-11-2014 5:38pm

sup_dude wrote: »

I don't particularly agree with your FYPing. If the cross was never up there, nobody would bat an eyelid. However, because the cross was put up there and then taken down, people are outraged at the idea of not having a cross up there. It just goes along with the idea that you can't miss what you never had.

Well someone thought it was a good idea in the first place, until someone else thought it wasn't. I don't think people are so much offended by it's absence as they are at the idea of it being vandalised.

As ST mentions though, it could've been a structural flaw (rare enough for box steel in fairness, and in the dead of night and all when nobody was around?), much more likely it was a petrol powered angle grinder, could be felled in minutes.

It's with the angles now...

(couldn't resist

)

beveragelady · 22-11-2014 5:39pm

Saipanne wrote: »

If given the choice, would you "see it" that non Christians get Christian funeral ceremonies? Or some kind of Christian blessing, despite them spending their lives avoiding it?

Why impose your philosophies on dead people who never wanted your proselytising in life?

Do you not see how wrong and disrespectful your imposing of your beliefs is here?

I'm glad somebody said this. There's a touch of deliberate non-comprehension among those who want religious icons in public places. A lot of the time they genuinely can't quite believe that we don't all share their faith. "Sure who could possibly be bothered by it? Sure he is the one true god, deep down they all know it, they're only pretending it bothers them because they're embarrassed to admit they've all backed the wrong horse."
I think my whole argument can be distilled down to this: Keep your faith in your place of worship and your home. Stop annoying other people with it.

SpaceTime · 22-11-2014 5:40pm

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Well someone thought it was a good idea in the first place, until someone else thought it wasn't. I don't think people are so much offended by it's absence as they are at the idea of it being vandalised.

As ST mentions though, it could've been a structural flaw (rare enough for box steel in fairness, and in the dead of night and all when nobody was around?), much more likely it was a petrol powered angle grinder, could be felled in minutes.

It's with the angles now...

(couldn't resist )

You don't normally use box steel to support a tall, narrow structures with ongoing vibration and twisting loads. It's normally only used to support stable structures.

There's a reason why flagpoles are round and slightly flexible!!

Pumpkinseeds · 22-11-2014 5:40pm

Someone must have been very bored to go to all the trouble of climbing up there to cut it down. I couldn't care less if there's a cross up there or not, but vandalism is vandalism.

bodice ripper · 22-11-2014 5:41pm

The bleating over the cross being cut down reminds me of the eejits moaning about their flag coming down up north.

evolving_doors · 22-11-2014 5:42pm

Graces7 wrote: »

Then you are intolerant. Period. Discriminatory too

Hoping it is replaced and soon.. that sign is of hope and beauty which we need so much

can we have a crescent moon too..

star of david..

pentagram!

In the interest of tolerance and all that...

or maybe just keep the human icons at home and have a ' mountain-top' on top of the mountain to symbolise that you are at the top.

22-11-2014 5:42pm

SpaceTime wrote: »

That wouldn't be a good idea.

If it's going back, it would want to done to a decent structural engineering standard. Realistically, you're talking about needing the same kind of structure as a small wind turbine base to ensure it doesn't come crashing down again.

I'm surprised it wasn't guyed like a transmission mast to reduce movement.

Let god weld it! Maybe thor could lend a hand.
Looking at the photos on the rte website, the steel is quite thick so no need for guy wires.
I never heard about it until now, never seen and never want to see it.

madcabbage · 22-11-2014 5:45pm

Saipanne wrote: »

The individuals that matter are dead, in this example.

If given the choice, would you "see it" that non Christians get Christian funeral ceremonies? Or some kind of Christian blessing, despite them spending their lives avoiding it?

Why impose your philosophies on dead people who never wanted your proselytising in life?

Do you not see how wrong and disrespectful your imposing of your beliefs is here?

I'm not imposing my philosophies on anyone, I never said that they should be blessed or given a Christian funeral. I see the cross as a reminder of one who've died, is that imposing to you? Is respecting the dead wrong if the individual dead is a non-Christian?

Earl Turner · 22-11-2014 5:45pm

beveragelady wrote: »

I'm glad somebody said this. There's a touch of deliberate non-comprehension among those who want religious icons in public places. A lot of the time they genuinely can't quite believe that we don't all share their faith. "Sure who could possibly be bothered by it? Sure he is the one true god, deep down they all know it, they're only pretending it bothers them because they're embarrassed to admit they've all backed the wrong horse."
I think my whole argument can be distilled down to this: Keep your faith in your place of worship and your home. Stop annoying other people with it.

Let me guess you think Nativity scenes shouldn't be allowed on public property and Christmas should be renamed 'Winterval'.

One eyed Jack · 22-11-2014 5:46pm

Armelodie wrote: »

can we have a crescent moon too..

star of david..

pentagram!

In the interest of tolerance and all that...

or maybe just keep the human icons at home and have a ' mountain-top' on top of the mountain to symbolise that you are at the top.

Well I'm sure if enough people wanted it they could do it, sure they have an American flag on the moon

SpaceTime · 22-11-2014 5:49pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Let god weld it! Maybe thor could lend a hand.
Looking at the photos on the rte website, the steel is quite thick so no need for guy wires.
I never heard about it until now, never seen and never want to see it.

Thickness is irrelevant in this situation. The material looks like it wouldn't flex at all under load.

A big lump of cast iron is very strong, but if you hit it with a hammer it will fracture, especially if you hit it in just the right place.

An aircraft's built out of metal that's not much thicker than a coke can, yet it can safely take you across the atlantic. If you built it out of thicker, hard, steel it would just fracture and fall apart.

There's more to this kind of thing than just strength, you need flexibility and you need an ability to be able to withstand constant, repeating movements.

Anyway, I just hope the conspiracy theorists out there don't go blaming someone random or thinking it's some kind of atheist vigilante. It's mostly likely just that parish committees aren't really known for their structural engineering abilities!

I'm not posting any more about it, you can go off and read a few books on materials science and structural engineering

Or a few hours of Aircrash Investigations!

Roadtoad · 22-11-2014 5:49pm

Today Kerry, tomorrow Rio!

or maybe not.

Lets have a referendum, like the Swiss, to define what we put on pedestals.

or maybe not.

gctest50 · 22-11-2014 5:49pm

Earl Turner wrote: »

...... and Christmas should be renamed 'Winterval'.

great idea

http://www.winterval.ie

Saipanne · 22-11-2014 5:49pm

madcabbage wrote: »

I'm not imposing my philosophies on anyone, I never said that they should be blessed or given a Christian funeral. I see the cross as a reminder of one who've died, is that imposing to you? Is respecting the dead wrong if the individual dead is a non-Christian?

If it involves imposing your religious iconography on the dead, then yes. That is one of the most disrespectful acts I can think of.

The other fella · 22-11-2014 5:49pm

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Well I'm sure if enough people wanted it they could do it, sure they have an American flag on the moon

Yup, if people want to finance the making of these symbols and go through the labour of getting it to the mountain top then best of luck to them.

beveragelady · 22-11-2014 5:50pm

Earl Turner wrote: »

Let me guess you think Nativity scenes shouldn't be allowed on public property and Christmas should be renamed 'Winterval'.

Oh dear me, no! I fully support Christmas. I get two weeks off, paid!

Pumpkinseeds · 22-11-2014 5:50pm

This is an odd thread, most of us had no idea that there was a cross up there and the ones who are the most outraged are the ones who didn't know that it was up there but who are totally pissed off that it was ever up there.

:D

Earl Turner · 22-11-2014 5:51pm

beveragelady wrote: »

Oh dear me, no! I fully support Christmas. I get two weeks off, paid!

Guess there is an upside to the all the Christian oppression you face in your day to day life.

crockholm · 22-11-2014 5:54pm

Armelodie wrote: »

can we have a crescent moon too..

star of david..

pentagram!

In the interest of tolerance and all that...

or maybe just keep the human icons at home and have a ' mountain-top' on top of the mountain to symbolise that you are at the top.

Silly post tbh.Going by your last sentence you would also be advocating the removal of the cairns on the top of the "Paps" Mountains as they are associated with the goddess Danu.

I'm comfortable enough in my agnosticism to have never been offended by the cross up there.

The cross should be restored,and if people wish to see it removed then write to Kerry County Council,the OPW,Heritage council whatever relevant authority and remove it via mandate.

SpaceTime · 22-11-2014 5:54pm

One last post (just did about 3 seconds worth of Google image searching)

There's a square lighting pole suffering from metal fatigue due to wind induced vibrations / harmonics etc.

http://polescentral.acuitybrands.com/Images/pdf%20images/wind_loading_harmonics___Wind_Induced_Vibrations_I_2.jpg

Look similar to you?!

That's not at a weld either, it's just the point on the pole where the load is highest.

I think your culprit is the wind!
So, I guess you'll have to immediately charge Mother Nature with Blasphemy.

Also, there's actually a site called Poles Central entirely dedicated to the latest news on metal poles LOL ... totally Father Ted stuff!

Cross on Carauntoohill had been cut down

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